FAKE NEWS; FAKE EMERGENCY; FAKE WALL?

Albion

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It's the opposite -- they give more than they get.
No, they do not. They become eligible for a dozen or so significant government financial handouts. All the Social Security taxes and sales taxes, etc that they may pay do not compensate for that. The amount that illegals cost us annually is in the tens of billions.

That said, I expect that some go on to find significant employment, pay taxes and all of that, but on balance "they," taken as a group, cost much more than they contribute in taxes.

But...even if that were not so, I'll still not risk the "second death" by refusing to welcome one of my brothers or sisters from another land.
I hear people saying that but, strangely enough, none of the folks I hear from are housing any illegal immigrant families in their guest bedrooms at present.

So I take it as something easy that's to say so long as nothing in particular must be done in addition.
 
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Basil the Great

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Between crime and drugs, one can make a case that the problem is an emergency, but one can also argue that we do not have an emergency. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder they say, so believe whichever way you wish to believe. I have mixed feelings, but it does seem to me that if this goes through, it may set a bad precedent for future Presidents.
 
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Michael

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Why/why not?

I am undecided...

Around 2/3rds of all illegal immigrants come into the country *legally* and simply overstay their visas, they don't come across the border illegally. Most drugs come through an existing port of entry, not through the deserts where Trump wants to build his wall, so his wall won't "solve" any of the problems that he's claiming it will solve.

It will take a long time, and probably longer than the next year to spend 1.375 billion to built 55 miles of new fencing, so a real "deal maker" has plenty of time to work out funding with the congress in the next funding bill if he wants to do things 'legally'.

Congress and only congress has the right to decide where money is spent according to our constitution. The President is trying to undermine our constitution and usurp power like a petty dictator by declaring this an "emergency" so that he can steal/divert funds that were set aside for real national disasters. The courts will block it anyway, so the whole national emergency claim is pure political theater to appease his base. It won't solve the immigration problem, or the drug problem and it won't hold up in court.

About all it might do is prevent California and Puerto Rico from receiving the help that they need to rebuild from their natural disasters, but Trump hates California anyway because he lost in California by large margins so it's no skin off his nose.
 
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Albion

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Around 2/3rds of all illegal immigrants come into the country *legally* and simply overstay their visas, they don't come across the border illegally. Most drugs come through an existing port of entry, not through the deserts where Trump wants to build his wall, so his wall won't "solve" any of the problems that he's claiming it will solve.
You're missing the point of tens of millions of unknown persons of unknown backgrounds using -- for free -- all the services that have been set up to assist the less fortunate of our own people who, in varying degrees paid to have them available for our people, legal immigrants included.
 
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It is a humanitarian emergency at the border, not a national one.

if he was serous about it, he would address the biggest way people get in illegally, expired Visas.

this is just a dog and pony show for his base.
And the fact that a simplified guest worker program would solve much of the problem in a short time.
 
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USincognito

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Everyone flaunts their heritage....singling out Trump voters that do it is showing what your intent for this statement is all about.
I don't. I'm a milquetoast white person with British ancestry, but I don't flaunt it.
 
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Michael

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You're missing the point of tens of millions of unknown persons of unknown backgrounds using -- for free -- all the services that have been set up to assist the less fortunate of our own people who, in varying degrees paid to have them available for our people, legal immigrants included.

I'm not missing that point, I'm simply noting that building a wall across the entire southern border won't solve that problem because most illegal aliens (about 2/3rds) come into our country *legally* and simply overstay their visas. The same is true of the drug problem. About 90 percent of it comes through existing ports of entry, not through the deserts where Trump want's to spend our money.

What ever happened to his promise that *Mexico* was going to pay for his wall? Talk about unethical business practices. He got himself elected by making promises that he never intended on keeping and now he wants *me* to pay for his vanity project just so he can help himself get reelected. No thank you.
 
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Halbhh

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They become eligible for a dozen or so significant government financial handouts. All the Social Security taxes and sales taxes, etc that they may pay do not compensate for that. The amount that illegals cost us annually is in the tens of billions.
Brother it sounds like instead of an objectively neutral checking, you've heard a claim made by someone trying to paint them as bad people.
 
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CRAZY_CAT_WOMAN

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Everyone flaunts their heritage....singling out Trump voters that do it is showing what your intent for this statement is all about.
Actully most Trump voters I know don't brag about their heritage, Unless they want make pretence, that they arent racist. But it's hard for them to pretend for to long. Before their racist hatred starts showing again.
 
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Albion

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I'm not missing that point, I'm simply noting that building a wall across the entire southern border won't solve that problem because most illegal aliens (about 2/3rds) come into our country *legally* and simply overstay their visas. The same is true of the drug problem. About 90 percent of it comes through existing ports of entry, not through the deserts where Trump want's to spend our money.
Where I fault that kind of thinking is here:

1. Cutting down on the number of occurances of ANY serious problem is a gain. If there are X number of cases of diabetes in the USA annually, who says that some new drug or medical technique is not worth employing if only 30% or 50% or 70% of the new instances of the disease will be prevented?

Sounds silly, doesn't it? Yet that seems to be the argument most used by people who want to do nothing at all about the border security problem.

And the amount of our money that the president wanted to spend is also a phony issue. The opponents now say it is too much, but they themselves vote several times to spend much more. But the president then was either Obama or Bush 2. Right now, the obstructionists in Congress are willing to have the country be harmed before they will do something for the common good which, however, might cause the President to take some credit for having accomplished.

As a matter of fact, the very bill that he just signed that gives $1.3billion or so to the wall also gives three times as much just as foreign aid to other countries. So what about that argument that the cost is too much?

2. It is not true that nothing has been done about people overstaying their visas, etc. There has indeed been attention paid to that problem and to the drug issue relating to the ports of entry, and changes have been instituted.

I agree that the media haven't found it worth reporting on but you can find out with a little online search. Incidentally, this concerns only a portion of the problems that not stopping millions of people from walking across the border presents.
 
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Albion

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Brother it sounds like instead of an objectively neutral checking, you've heard a claim made by someone trying to paint them as bad people.
I have given you facts, not what somebody near me was musing about over a beer. And I also find it disappointing to have you dismiss everything I presented to you with a comment like "paint them as bad people."

A person who comes here and becomes dependent upon the government, needs schooling for his kids, needs medical care that he could not get or afford in his own country, has few skills needed to enter the job market in this country except for the most menial of jobs, and becomes an expense to Americans, did not get called "bad" by me.

I said that there is a limit to how much Americans can take care of all the rest of the worlds needs and, also, that every dollar spent this way takes it away from the poor of our own country (which the Democrats always say need help and that their party is the one that cares about helping them. It is ironic, isn't it, how far they will go simply to spite our president?)
 
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Halbhh

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I have given you facts, not what somebody near me was musing about over a beer. And I also find it disappointing to have you dismiss everything I presented to you with a comment like "paint them as bad people."

A person who comes here and becomes dependent upon the government, needs schooling for his kids, needs medical care that he could not get or afford in his own country, has few skills needed to enter the job market in this country except for the most menial of jobs, and becomes an expense to Americans, did not get called "bad" by me.

I said that there is a limit to how much Americans can take care of all the rest of the worlds needs and, also, that every dollar spent this way takes it away from the poor of our own country (which the Democrats always say need help and that their party is the one that cares about helping them. It is ironic, isn't it, how far they will go simply to spite our president?)

Ok, I'm happy to read the site with the facts in question you think are legit, and then to compare it to known serious sites that are reliable, like U.S. governmental sites such data would be thought to be from to begin with, for instance....

And find out.

Happy to do that, and not at all attached to any one viewpoint, actually. I'm relying just on a combination of known facts myself -- for example how violent crime in El Paso went *up* some after the fence improvements were made, and then settled to the same level as before the improvements. Actual numbers.

Real.
 
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Heart2Soul

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Actully most Trump voters I know don't brag about their heritage, Unless they want make pretence, that they arent racist. But it's hard for them to pretend for to long. Before their racist hatred starts showing again.
Coming from the mouth of one who is judgmental? which is worse? One who judges and condemns another or one who despises the differences in culture and beliefs? Seriously, this is hypocrisy at it's finest.
 
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Michael

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Where I fault that kind of thinking is here:

1. Cutting down on the number of occurances of ANY serious problem is a gain. If there are X number of cases of diabetes in the USA annually, who says that some new drug or medical technique is not worth employing if only 30% or 50% or 70% of the new instances of the disease will be prevented?

In this case however is more of a matter of how and where we spend money. Every bill has included an increase in funding for border security.

Sounds silly, doesn't it? Yet that seems to be the argument most used by people who want to do nothing at all about the border security problem.

Not a single bill submitted to the President did "nothing at all about the border security problem". They all included additional funding for border security. He just want's *more* funding for a wall that won't resolve the vast majority of the problem. It's not the best way to spend the money.

And the amount of our money that the president wanted to spend is also a phony issue.

Boloney. He told us that Mexico would pay for the wall. He gave himself a 15 million dollar a year tax break, but now he insists that *I* pay for his vanity wall. It's phoney to claim Mexico will pay for it, then give yourself a *huge* tax break and then put a huge bill on top of our national debt. That's phoney baloney.

The opponents now say it is too much, but they themselves vote several times to spend much more.

Only if he would agree to a comprehensive solution that dealt with DACA. They offered that to Trump too.

But the president then was either Obama or Bush 2. Right now, the obstructionists in Congress are willing to have the country be harmed before they will do something for the common good which, however, might cause the President to take some credit for having accomplished.

Our country has a *lot* of problems and a very limited budget, an even smaller budget because Trump gave himself and his rich friends and family members a gigantic tax break last year. It's not like we have unlimited funds to fix every problem instantly. We have to "budget" our resources and that is what congress does.

As a matter of fact, the very bill that he just signed that gives $1.3billion or so to the wall also gives three times as much just as foreign aid to other countries. So what about that argument that the cost is too much?

In exchange for that funding, we also got Mexico to house the illegals on their side of the border. Weren't you just complaining about the cost of having them in our country?

2. It is not true that nothing has been done about people overstaying their visas, etc.

I didn't suggest that either. I do think our money would be better spent on that problem however than on building a wall. Again, it's about priorities.

There has indeed been attention paid to that problem and to the drug issue relating to the ports of entry, and changes have been instituted.

And congress agreed to increase funding in those areas so it's irrational to claim that democrats aren't interested in improving border security. It's a debate about the best way to do it.

I agree that the media haven't found it worth reporting on but you can find out with a little online search. Incidentally, this concerns only a portion of the problems that not stopping millions of people from walking across the border presents.

I personally think we'd be better off with a "virtual wall" using technology to catch them rather than on a wall they can simply cut through or dig under.

Steel prototype for border wall cut through with saw, photo shows
 
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Heart2Soul

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I don't. I'm a milquetoast white person with British ancestry, but I don't flaunt it.
You just did....lol. Proudly setting yourself apart from others as if bragging that you do not stoop to their level.
 
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Ringo84

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Heart2Soul said:
Coming from the mouth of one who is judgmental? which is worse? One who judges and condemns another or one who despises the differences in culture and beliefs? Seriously, this is hypocrisy at it's finest.
Right! Calling out racism is exactly the same as the racism itself!

/sarcasm
Ringo
 
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