Orthodox view on the "Nephilim"

TheLostCoin said:

Actually, Jude refers to angels fornicating.

"6 And angels who had not kept their own original state, but had abandoned their own dwelling, he keeps in eternal chains under gloomy darkness, to [the] judgment of [the] great day;

7 as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities around them, committing greedily fornication, in a like manner with them, and going after other flesh, lie there as an example, undergoing the judgment of eternal fire."

In the Greek, "with them" is masculine, so "with them" can't be referring to the cities, which are feminine, but rather "angels", which are masculine.

http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/NTpdf/jud1.pdf

It could just be a reference to the story and not a complete endorsement of the story?

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well, we know that's what the folks in Sodom tried to do. that doesn't mean they were physically successful.

TheLostCoin said:

So demons have genders, whereas angels don't?
While it's possible, I think Saint John Cassian brings up some important points.

From Book 1, Conference 8

"We cannot possibly believe that spiritual existences can have carnal intercourse with women. But if this could ever have literally happened how is it that it does not now also sometimes take place, and that we do not see some in the same way born of women by the agency of demons without intercourse with men? Especially when it is clear that they delight in the pollution of lust, which they would certainly prefer to bring about through their own agency rather than through that of men, if they could possibly manage it…
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As long then as there continued that separation of the lines between them, the seed of Seth, as it sprang from an excellent root, was by reason of its sanctity termed "angels of God," or as some copies have it "sons of God;" and on the contrary the others by reason of their own and their fathers' wickedness and their earthly deeds were termed "children of men."
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From these sons of Seth then and daughters of Cain, as we have said, there were I born still worse children who became mighty hunters, violent and most fierce men who were termed giants by reason of the size of their bodies and their cruelty and wickedness. For these first began to harass their neighbours and to practise pillaging among men, getting their living rather by rapine than by being contented with the sweat and labour of toil, and their wickedness increased to such a pitch that the world could only be purified by the flood and deluge. So then when the sons of Seth at the instigation of their lust had transgressed that command which had been for a long while kept by a natural instinct from the beginning of the world, it was needful that it should afterwards be restored by the letter of the law: "Thou shalt not give thy daughter to his son to wife, nor shalt thou take a wife of his daughters to thy son; for they shall seduce your hearts to depart from your God, and to follow their gods and serve them."

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I always just took the account given by St. Irenaeus as the same as given by Moses in Genesis & that of St, Jude. I never wondered otherwise about the giants or nephilim.

TheLostCoin said:

That's true - maybe the "angels" in that specific passage are the "angels" of Sodom and Gomorrah, that the folks in Sodom tried to have their way with.

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that makes the most sense to me.

1stcenturylady said:

How did Mary get pregnant from an invisible being? We don't know much about the physicality of angels.

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Mary conceived by the Holy Spirit, the third person of the Holy Trinity which is the author and creator of all life. If God can take one of Adam's ribs and form a woman, He can take one of Eve's ova and form a man.
Angels, on the other hand are created beings which have no bodies. They can take on the appearance of flesh but they cannot provide sperm to fertilise a woman's ova.

TheLostCoin said:

Well that's the controversy - it seems clear that the Book of Enoch had influence such that it became a canonical book in the Ethiopian Orthodox Church, but it's weird that an incorporeal being could have coitus with a human being and produce a giant, but more than that, even though demons are capable of possessing people, we don't have thousands of cases today of women getting pregnant with devils and producing 10 foot tall giants.

Which, if that did happen, it makes me feel bad for women to give birth to such huge babies. Oof, that must hurt. If the woman survives and they did that, quite frankly they deserve medals of honor.

Not for having coitus with a demon, but for that level of the experience of childbirth.

Even though I am poking fun, who knows.

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The Ethiopian text of Enoch should probably be studied by the church to show us its positive & negative aspects. The intercessionary prayers of the angels & saints are mentioned in chapter 39 & the Trinity ( not the specific word of course) but account of, is given in chapter 48.

The book of Enoch was extremely popular from about 100BC to about 200AD.
It fell out of popularity in both Judaism and Christianity.
Certain Fathers influenced by Enoch interpreted them as actual demons mating with human women.
The term sons of God was also a title used for kings and royalty and Adam (as well as Jesus). The primary interpretation is the decadent women of Cain's lineage began worshipping the stars and getting into the occult. Through demonic influence they mastered the art of applying make-up, adorning themselves and enhancing their appearance and other acts of seduction. The Sons of God were the divine lineage of Seth (Genesis 5:1-3). The men descendant from Seth saw how attractive the women of Cain's line were and being easily seduced intermarried with them.

1stcenturylady said:

Note what is in red.

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On the cross the Lord conferred His mother’s motherhood to us all via the Apostle St. John and the Lord called this John her son ( John 19:25-27 ). She is ever Virgin ever blessed.


The post I was responding to above registered incomplete although I did a full text reply. I am too tired to go further on at this point...

Numbers 13

I kind of think I shouldn't mention it but I've had a random thought. That's ALL it is. No backing from the Fathers or anyone on it.

But part of the interpretations do seem to point to angels being somehow responsible for this situation. And there are ancient ruins which seem to point to literally giant people existing. Yet we do know that angels are not corporeal as we are and do not procreate.

I guess my mind takes seeming inconsistencies like this and plays with them.

But I also remember a hint of angels having brought advanced kinds of knowledge - sciences if you will - to early people. And I think about the genetic research going on today, which is being used to accomplish all manner of things. And I wonder ... if (fallen) angels were unable to produce any sperm, yet perhaps in their advanced knowledge and intelligence they were able to manipulate it - and what if they did that and used the results to impregnate women? (There seems to be ample evidence that angels can at least appear to be human and interact with people.)

There is also the suggestion that Noah's line was pure in a sense (though I much more believe that has to do with righteous character than genetic matters) ... but the way God speaks of "kinds" and keeping pure hints at the possibility that polluting the DNA of mankind (created in the image of God) with some kind of adulteration could potentially derail God's plan of Christ coming and taking on human flesh? Making the flood necessary.

Anyway. Just some random thoughts. Like I said, not sure if it's even a good idea to post it because the chances I'm wrong (since they are just my thoughts) are much greater than any chance I might happen to be right in any of it. But sometimes seeming inconsistencies like this seem to fall together in such simple ways for me. At least it keeps me from being bothered by them.

TheLostCoin said:

Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife:
And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name Jesus."

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He didn't have sex with her until after she gave birth to her firstborn son. Then he did. The word till shows a difference between before and after. Otherwise the word until wouldn't be there.

TheLostCoin said:

1 Timothy 4:13
"Until I come, attend to the public reading of scripture, to preaching, to teaching."

Does this mean that Timothy should stop reading scripture, preaching, and teaching?

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Timothy was to attend to the public reading of scripture and preaching until Paul comes to take over the meetiings. So when Paul is not there, Timothy was to do it; and when Paul was there Paul would do the teaching.

TheLostCoin said:

1 Corinthians 15:25
"For He (Christ) must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet."

Does this mean that Christ's reign will end?

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Yes Christ's reign over the nations will end. Christ will reign over the nations for 1000 years. And at the end of the thousand years the wicked will be cast into the lake of fire. We will have a new heaven and a new earth and God will not reign over us, but He will be our God and we will be His sons and daughters.

And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

7 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. 9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. 10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

The Great White Throne Judgment
11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

21 Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. 2 Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. 4 And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.”

5 Then He who sat on the throne said, “Behold, I make all things new.” And He said to me, “Write, for these words are true and faithful.”

6 And He said to me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely to him who thirsts. 7 He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son.

TheLostCoin said:

And yes, Jesus had brothers, but in Orthodoxy, we recognize the fact that Joseph was a widow before he got married to Mary, and they are step brothers of Jesus. James, the Brother of Jesus, would be the main ruler of the Church of Jerusalem while the other Apostles preached the Gospel around the known world.

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This is not in Scripture, but a fairytale made into a "holy tradition."

There is always a before and after when you have a "till" or "until." Mary was a virgin until Christ's birth, but after that she was Joseph's wife, and he didn't touch her until after the baby was born, but then he gave her sons and daughters.

The virgin birth isn't tainted just because she was Joseph's normal wife after Christ was born. It is only when people want to venerate Mary above her station of just becoming one of Christ's disciples that is adding to scripture and forbidden. But Orthodoxy seems to think they have the power to change Scripture to fit fairytales.

prodromos said:

Mary conceived by the Holy Spirit, the third person of the Holy Trinity which is the author and creator of all life. If God can take one of Adam's ribs and form a woman, He can take one of Eve's ova and form a man.
Angels, on the other hand are created beings which have no bodies. They can take on the appearance of flesh but they cannot provide sperm to fertilise a woman's ova.

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Scripture tells us very little about the physicality of angels, but certainly more than what you just posted.

Lukaris said:

On the cross the Lord conferred His mother’s motherhood to us all via the Apostle St. John and the Lord called this John her son ( John 19:25-27 ). She is ever Virgin ever blessed.


The post I was responding to above registered incomplete although I did a full text reply. I am too tired to go further on at this point...

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Christ was dying and leaving the youngest disciple who may not have had anyone else in the care of His family to become adopted and one of them.

1stcenturylady said:

Christ was dying and leaving the youngest disciple who may not have had anyone else in the care of His family to become adopted and one of them.

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except how you are defining until is not correct. Christ says He is with us even until the end of the Age at the Great Commission. by your logic, He should leave us after that.

plus, the word "until" in that context is not an accurate translation from the Greek.

1stcenturylady said:

Mating with whom to produce giants? Don't forget whose left, and who isn't.

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To the ancient Hebrews anyone over 6'2 would be a giant. Goliath was a giant in the eyes of the hebrews as they had richer diets and were more advanced (they were in the bronze age as the ancient hebrews were still in the stone age).

TheLostCoin said:

Not really - if we hold onto this theory, Noah's family would have repopulated the lands to such an extent that - eventually - some giants would again appear.

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The giants were simply tall people, basketball players would have been considered giants as the average height of man during that time was only like 5'6. The book of Enoch claims they were 450 feet tall. Ironically how Irenaeous who borrowed his understanding from Enoch interprets these giants, it's possible to not interpret them as literal offspring from fallen Angel's. Instead they possessed women and lead them into the occult and into witchcraft and techniques of seduction. Thus men were mating with these women who were under the control of fallen angels.
According to Enoch these Angel's also taught the men on how to use metal and make swords, and other tools etc.
Using the above interpretation Genesis 6 can imply that these giants were already on the earth as the controlled women were mating for decades and finally Seth's lineage decided to join in on the action. At that point God decided to flood the world as the last remaining godly human race also fell to these seductive women (who were possessed by the fallen angels) and finally defiled themselves as well. These women took direction not from their human husbands but from these fallen angels who taught them to make and take potions and medicines.

I hope I don't come across sounding like a jerk, I know it can be stimulating to try and figure out such things, but this whole conversation reminds me of a story of the desert fathers.

"One day, the inhabitants of Scetis assembled together to discuss Melchizedek and they forgot to invite Abba Copres. Later on they called him and asked him about this matter. Tapping his mouth three times, he said 'Alas for you, Copres! For that which God commanded you do, you have put aside, and you are wanting to learn something which you have not been required to know about.' When they heard these words, the brothers fled to their cells."

1stcenturylady said:

Christ was dying and leaving the youngest disciple who may not have had anyone else in the care of His family to become adopted and one of them.

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You are, unintentionally, distorting tradition in which the Bible exists. Nowhere does it say that the Virgin Mother had carnal relations. As I pointed out, the Lord conferred her motherhood to us all via the Apostle St. John. Look at the exalted woman of Revelation 12, this is from the Apostle John also, who else do you think he exalts other than our blessed Virgin Mother?