Business people--your thoughts?

yeshuaslavejeff said:

Yes, many people, because the Ekklesia is not all around them as one, are stuck in similar juxta-positions struggling between choosing to serve God no matter what, and the difficulty of serving God without the body of Christ all working together as one, as they did in ACTS, and in centuries following, but not seen by everyone, and often difficult to find today and learn to work together.

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Seriously, folks, this is the truth. Satan has been so successful in making sure this is the truth that even members of the Body have been brainwashed to argue vigorously against the concept of the Body and our membership in it.

They are like that disembodied hand in The Addams Family running around doing its own Thing rather than being part of a body. And they argue that's how it should be.

And even when we see how functioning as a social body by non-Christian groups such as immigrant Asians and Africans enables them to start businesses through group support, we refuse to believe it and refuse to understand that is how the Body of Christ should operate.

miss-a said:

So, I took Dave Ramsey's course several years ago. He basically considers all debt "dumb debt." I question this. I realize using a credit card to buy things we don't need and can't afford is unwise, and I don't do that. But what about a loan to start a business? Do you Christian business folks consider that "dumb debt?" I'd be interested in your opinions.

Thanks,
A

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No, that wouldn't dumb debt but a leveraged investment. I do it all the time. Be sure to pay it all off, though ("Do not let any debt remain outstanding.. "). Do hedge your losses as they can equal your initial investment. Leveraged investments can be risky but also profitable. Peace in Christ.

miss-a said:

So, I took Dave Ramsey's course several years ago. He basically considers all debt "dumb debt." I question this. I realize using a credit card to buy things we don't need and can't afford is unwise, and I don't do that. But what about a loan to start a business? Do you Christian business folks consider that "dumb debt?" I'd be interested in your opinions.

Thanks,
A

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He has an opinion. That's it. His word isn't law. Don't sweat it.
People far wealthier than him used other people's money to get where they are.
Going into debt to buy a television you don't need is far different from going into debt to start a business.

miss-a said:

So, I took Dave Ramsey's course several years ago. He basically considers all debt "dumb debt." I question this. I realize using a credit card to buy things we don't need and can't afford is unwise, and I don't do that. But what about a loan to start a business? Do you Christian business folks consider that "dumb debt?" I'd be interested in your opinions.

Thanks,
A

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You have more options than just borrowing money, to me, this is why its a dumb debt.

You can save money for 5 years and invest that money over and over to accumulate so you have the money for a business.

That's one way, there are a lot more ways.

So to borrow money is the same as saying I don't care about the buisness at all, becouse you are using other peoples money for the buisness.

Other people buy properties than sell them after they fix them up and they do this a couple years till they have enough to start there dream business. I have family friends who did this.

To me, if you don't look into all your avenues other then just asking for money you're not going to do good in your business anyhow, thats my opinion.

Tharseo said:

I would share one thing. A brother I know was considering to buy a flat (edit: just realise most English speakers in US would call it an apartment ), which he will have to borrow (the price of a flat where I live is over any normal person could afford after 30 years of working). At last, God led him not to do so.

After two years, he was led to quit his job and serve the Lord. Then he realised that if he did buy a flat, he would not be free to quit his job because he will not be able to pay the debt otherwise.

So is it a sin if he buys a flat? Is it loving the world? I don't think so. Some of us even own a flat. But he would suffer losses, since he would not be able to serve the Lord full-time.

Same goes for business. It does not neccessarily imply the love of this world.

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Business people are fiercely pragmatic and would never invest in something that would take them 30 years to pay back. Businesses will buy with cash otherwise they will rent and it is just as you said, owning is high risk and if you need to get out it can take a while and you may have to sell at a loss, not to mention the costs involved with maintenance over 30 years. Renting/leasing is far more pragmatic, smaller amounts of cash for less time. You never own but it's also not a liability and you can get out when you want (no to little risk). The business person looks at the loss/gain over a year where our personal budgets are far more flexible and as long as we have a profit before we die we are happy which simply is not a sustainable business model.

DamianWarS said:

Business people are fiercely pragmatic and would never invest in something that would take them 30 years to pay back. Businesses will buy with cash otherwise they will rent and it is just as you said, owning is high risk and if you need to get out it can take a while and you may have to sell at a loss, not to mention the costs involved with maintenance over 30 years. Renting/leasing is far more pragmatic, smaller amounts of cash for less time. You never own but it's also not a liability and you can get out when you want (no to little risk). The business person looks at the loss/gain over a year where our personal budgets are far more flexible and as long as we have a profit before we die we are happy which simply is not a sustainable business model.

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True. Risking yourself to go bankrupt is not a good thing at all. Constantly putting your attention to the market and your income/loss is usually a bad thing as well. But maybe, just maybe, God wishes some people to go for it, we never know...

James 4:13-15: "Come now, you who say, "Today or tomorrow we will go into such and such a town and spend a year there and trade and make a profit"- yet you do not know what tomorrow will bring. What is your life? For you are a mist that appears for a little time and then vanishes. Instead you ought to say, "If the Lord wills, we will live and do this or that.""

Tharseo said:

True. Risking yourself to go bankrupt is not a good thing at all. Constantly putting your attention to the market and your income/loss is usually a bad thing as well. But maybe, just maybe, God wishes some people to go for it, we never know...

James 4:13-15: "Come now, you who say, "Today or tomorrow we will go into such and such a town and spend a year there and trade and make a profit"- yet you do not know what tomorrow will bring. What is your life? For you are a mist that appears for a little time and then vanishes. Instead you ought to say, "If the Lord wills, we will live and do this or that.""

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I'm less concerned about people getting lifelong mortgages which may perhaps limit their reach to the corners of the world than I am with how they are demonstrating the gospel in their lives with the people they are surrounded with. Missions is right in front of you right now, not in a distant land, not in the distance future. Culturally speaking if we live incarnationally or as Paul puts it "become all things to all people" then we should own houses and cars and be concerned with market trends but also as Paul says that "[we] do it all for the sake of the gospel".

The business world looks for monetary gain but the missional world looks for gospel gain. This doesn't mean we should be wasteful of money but it does mean we may buy a house so that we may give glory to God within the means that God has given us and take 30 years to pay it off. How? because we are in a neighborhood full of people who do not know Christ and we can use that house to be a light for those people.

It's the motives of our heart that exposes our deeds, one can buy a house for personal gain unconcerned about the gospel where the other buys with a missional heart knowing that they are entering into a mission field. Which one does God favor?

miss-a said:

So, I took Dave Ramsey's course several years ago. He basically considers all debt "dumb debt." I question this. I realize using a credit card to buy things we don't need and can't afford is unwise, and I don't do that. But what about a loan to start a business? Do you Christian business folks consider that "dumb debt?" I'd be interested in your opinions.

Thanks,
A

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I think it is dumb debt yes. See the statistics on small business success. Most fail. Why would you think you don't fall into that statistical nightmare? It's something like 20% fail in the first year and 50% fail after 5 years.

I started a business once and it ran OK and I made thousands of dollars, but in the end it failed since the market for my product was so small. I learned a valuable lesson. Cheers.

here's the link to the statistics: What Percentage Of Small Businesses Fail -- And How Can You Avoid Being One Of Them?

In regard to taking a debt to start a business, there are no guarantees, even with God. As the bible says:

James 4:13-15 Come now, you who say, “Today or tomorrow we will go into such and such a town and spend a year there and trade and make a profit”— yet you do not know what tomorrow will bring. What is your life? For you are a mist that appears for a little time and then vanishes. Instead you ought to say, “If the Lord wills, we will live and do this or that.”

I have tried starting my own business on a few occasions, and generally I find myself giving up after six months, to return to the work place. It is not that I don't have the skills to run a business, I am quite skilled, it is just business is tough. I would never given my past tries at starting a business take a loan to get one going. For me it is just too risky.

But that is not to discourage you, just to make you aware of the reality of business in the modern world. Good ideas, even good skills, don't often translate into a successful business.

IN Bible Times... as I understand it, whenever a farmer borrowed to buy seed for his field,
the loaner SHARED THE RISK. (at least at some time once).

Then if the CROP FAILED - no profit, no return, nothing to repay the loan,

the loan was just a loss, uncollectable, uncollected, not held against the farmer.

At Other Biblical Times, as Written, if someone could not pay their debt,
in the year of Jubilee it was erased, forgiven, forgotten.
This was known and accepted in the year the debt was incurred - no shock , no surprise, it was well known,
AND the amount of the debt was 'limited' based on how many years remained to the year of Jubilee.

Thus a family's house, dwelling or property, might be 'lost' for a time, but always was returned in the year of Jubilee, all decently and in order with God's Instructions (which few people today are ever aware of).

yeshuaslavejeff said:

IN Bible Times... as I understand it, whenever a farmer borrowed to buy seed for his field,
the loaner SHARED THE RISK. (at least at some time once).

Then if the CROP FAILED - no profit, no return, nothing to repay the loan,

the loan was just a loss, uncollectable, uncollected, not held against the farmer.

At Other Biblical Times, as Written, if someone could not pay their debt,
in the year of Jubilee it was erased, forgiven, forgotten.
This was known and accepted in the year the debt was incurred - no shock , no surprise, it was well known,
AND the amount of the debt was 'limited' based on how many years remained to the year of Jubilee.

Thus a family's house, dwelling or property, might be 'lost' for a time, but always was returned in the year of Jubilee, all decently and in order with God's Instructions (which few people today are ever aware of).

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That is how the Law was intended to prevent creation of a "slave class" among Jews.

RDKirk said:

That is how the Law was intended to prevent creation of a "slave class" among Jews.

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That was part of God's Purpose, Certainly.
And His Instructions to those who did become 'slaves' or servants, were kind and just and able to prevent starvation from poverty , able to prevent homelessness, and so forth -
slaves and servants then had much better life , by God's Instructions,
than slaves of corporations anywhere today.
(note that NO OTHER COUNTRY, especially NOT THE USA, ever practiced Godliness concerning slavery or fro servants, no. No other country (that I know of right now)
did what was right or treated slaves/ servants generously and good for them.)

A friend started his business without any loans.... and it took him about 8 years from start to the first revenue coming in the door. During that time, every spare dollar he earned went towards the business, and just about every spare minute went to working on it.

Now, when it turned out he was making minimum wage as his market projection were wrong, he was able to sell it off for $200K and walk away without being on the hook for a half million dollar loan. Granted, thats a huge loss of sweat equity and a partial loss of principle, but its something to consider.

Another friend went into debt to the tune of $1.5 million and his first year he made a profit, and by year 5 was clearing $500K. Sweat equity in that place would have been a loosing deal.... but had it not turned out, he would had to declare corporate as well as personal bankruptcy (as business loans typically require personal guarantees)

mnphysicist said:

Another friend went into debt to the tune of $1.5 million and his first year he made a profit, and by year 5 was clearing $500K. Sweat equity in that place would have been a loosing deal.... but had it not turned out, he would had to declare corporate as well as personal bankruptcy (as business loans typically require personal guarantees)

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And bankrupt, if the business crashes, all the working poor people make up those millions of dollars FOR the rich who borrowed it. Over, and over, and over again.
Like the ones in debt over $100,000, can get off for $10,000 or less, today, and the taxpayers, laborers, poor, pay off those bad debts, or pay for them in many other ways - again the rich being paid their millions by the poor, again, and again, and again, daily, for the last 199 years.

Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for whoever loves others has fulfilled the law.
Romans 13:8