LDS LDS ‘The Hearts of the Children Shall Turn to Their Fathers’

Peter1000 · Jan 11, 2019

dzheremi said:
And this is all anyone has ever had, or will ever need.

God uses men to do most of His work on earth. We have been given the task to take care of our fathers and our hearts are turned to them, in turn they turn their hearts to us and help us find their names and dates etc. There are miracles that happen every day in the Church in regards to geneological work. If you want to see and be a part of a miracle, start doing your geneology and your fathers will turn their hearts to you and you will have a spiritual experience as you serve them.

twin.spin · Jan 11, 2019

Peter1000 said:
So people are destined to die once, after that to face judgement. Let's see how that works.

A man and a woman live in Sweden in 295AD and worship the only God they have known, and that is Thor or some other God. They are good people, and love each other, but have never heard the name of Jesus Christ. Have never heard his gospel, and have never been baptized of the spirit or of the water in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the HS. They sin, just like everyone else who have lived on this earth, but repentance is not part of their heritage or culture or learning.

Are you saying that these creations of Jesus, live and are destined to die once, never hearing the name Jesus Christ, therefore do not believe in Jesus, nor do they keep his commandments, so when they die, they immediately face judgement, and are sent directly to hell fire?

To answer your question: Yes people are sent to hell (aka "Outer Darkness") because Jesus revealed:
"He that believeth on him is not condemned:
he that believeth not is condemned already,
because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." John 3:18 KJV

btw: Jesus does not include "nor do they keep the commandments" … he only speaks in terms of believeth or not believeth.

Rescued One · Jan 12, 2019

Peter1000 said:
God uses men to do most of His work on earth. We have been given the task to take care of our fathers and our hearts are turned to them, in turn they turn their hearts to us and help us find their names and dates etc. There are miracles that happen every day in the Church in regards to geneological work. If you want to see and be a part of a miracle, start doing your geneology and your fathers will turn their hearts to you and you will have a spiritual experience as you serve them.

No, we are not supposed to waste time doing pointless works for the dead. Dead people don't turn their hearts to us. That's Mormon mythology. Living fathers should be teaching and nurturing their children and providing for their living families as well as their widowed mothers. They should visit the sick and those in prison. Genealogy is not a miracle and doesn't produce miracles.

Let the spiritually dead bury the dead and if you are a Christian go share your faith or help your neighbor or provide for the sick or teach your children how to harvest wheat or balance a bank account.

Hebrews 9
27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

Rescued One · Jan 12, 2019

twin.spin said:
To answer your question: Yes people are sent to hell (aka "Outer Darkness") because Jesus revealed:
"He that believeth on him is not condemned:
he that believeth not is condemned already,
because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." John 3:18 KJV

btw: Jesus does not include "nor do they keep the commandments" … he only speaks in terms of believeth or not believeth.

However, Jesus knows that those who love Him will keep His commandments.

twin.spin · Jan 12, 2019

Jesus revealed:
"He that believeth on him is not condemned:
he that believeth not is condemned already,
because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." John 3:18 KJV
btw: Jesus does not include "nor do they keep the commandments" … he only speaks in terms of believeth or not believeth.

Phoebe Ann said:
However, Jesus knows that those who love Him will keep His commandments.

Jesus also knows that keeping the commands requires that it done perfectly. (Mat 5:48)

That is why Jesus gave his life twice for you and for all people. Not only did he sacrifice it on the cross to pay for all our sins. He also sacrificed it by being born “under law” (Gal 4:4) in order to keep the law perfectly in our place. With his life, he qualified us for heaven. “Through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous” (Rom 5:19).

dzheremi · Jan 12, 2019

Peter1000 said:
God uses men to do most of His work on earth. We have been given the task to take care of our fathers and our hearts are turned to them, in turn they turn their hearts to us and help us find their names and dates etc. There are miracles that happen every day in the Church in regards to geneological work. If you want to see and be a part of a miracle, start doing your geneology and your fathers will turn their hearts to you and you will have a spiritual experience as you serve them.

How does any of this respond to or challenge the fact that everything is up to God?

Also, no, there is nothing miraculous about maintaining a genealogical database. And I wouldn't want my fathers to turn their hearts to me anyway; I'd want them to turn them to God, as we should all be doing.

Rescued One · Jan 12, 2019

twin.spin said:
Jesus revealed:
"He that believeth on him is not condemned:
he that believeth not is condemned already,
because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." John 3:18 KJV
btw: Jesus does not include "nor do they keep the commandments" … he only speaks in terms of believeth or not believeth.

Jesus also knows that keeping the commands requires that it done perfectly. (Mat 5:48)

Trying to earn salvation by keeping the commandments requires perfection.

twin.spin said:
That is why Jesus gave his life twice for you and for all people. Not only did he sacrifice it on the cross to pay for all our sins. He also sacrificed it by being born “under law” (Gal 4:4) in order to keep the law perfectly in our place. With his life, he qualified us for heaven. “Through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous” (Rom 5:19).

We keep the commandments 1) because we love Him 2) we are no longer walking in darkness.

Matthew 5
"14 Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid. 15 Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house. 16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven."

John 14
21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. 24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

Ephesians 5
Imitators of God

1 Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children; 2 And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.

3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; 4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. 5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. 7 Be not ye therefore partakers with them.

Children of Light

8 For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light: 9 (For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth )10 Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord. 11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.

Peter1000 · Jan 13, 2019

twin.spin said:
To answer your question: Yes people are sent to hell (aka "Outer Darkness") because Jesus revealed:
"He that believeth on him is not condemned:
he that believeth not is condemned already,
because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." John 3:18 KJV

btw: Jesus does not include "nor do they keep the commandments" … he only speaks in terms of believeth or not believeth.

So the billions of billions of people who have never heard the name of Jesus will be sent to hell, with no chance of hearing his gospel and then making a decision to believe or not?

Jesus knows that if you truly believe, you will keep his commandments, so it does not need to be said. But many, many times in the bible he does say that very verbiage. I would not count those words out of my belief system, it may surprise you in the end.

Peter1000 · Jan 13, 2019

dzheremi said:
How does any of this respond to or challenge the fact that everything is up to God?

Also, no, there is nothing miraculous about maintaining a genealogical database. And I wouldn't want my fathers to turn their hearts to me anyway; I'd want them to turn them to God, as we should all be doing.

God is the one that saves mankind. But God will not come to earth every time someone has the baptism of the spirit and wants to have the baptism of the water and baptize them. So yes, everything is up to God, and God chooses men to do His work on earth. That is why he gives them His power and authority, which is called the priesthood.

God is not going to come down and tell you face to face that He lives, he sends His Holy Spirit to do that work. God is not going to come down to earth and baptize every person who believes and want to get baptized. he sends his men that hold the holy priesthood to do that work. Does that make sense?

If you reject the words of God to Malachi in the Bible, so be it. What other parts of the Bible do you reject?

Peter1000 · Jan 13, 2019

Phoebe Ann said:
Trying to earn salvation by keeping the commandments requires perfection.

We keep the commandments 1) because we love Him 2) we are no longer walking in darkness.

Click to expand...

Matthew 5
"14 Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid. 15 Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house. 16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven."

John 14
21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. 24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

Ephesians 5
Imitators of God

1 Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children; 2 And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.

3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; 4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. 5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. 7 Be not ye therefore partakers with them.

Children of Light

8 For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light: 9 (For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth )10 Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord. 11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.
View attachment 248942 View attachment 248943

We keep the commandments 1) because we love Him 2) we are no longer walking in darkness.

You can always tell who truly believes in Christ by looking at how they keep his commandments, because we do love him, and we are longer walking in the dark.

You only have to look at your congregation and see who are bitter towards another person, or who is divisive, or who always makes trouble, or who is always complaining.
These are they who believe not, for they are not keeping the commandments of Jesus.

Peter1000 · Jan 13, 2019

twin.spin said:
Jesus revealed:
"He that believeth on him is not condemned:
he that believeth not is condemned already,
because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." John 3:18 KJV
btw: Jesus does not include "nor do they keep the commandments" … he only speaks in terms of believeth or not believeth.

Jesus also knows that keeping the commands requires that it done perfectly. (Mat 5:48)

That is why Jesus gave his life twice for you and for all people. Not only did he sacrifice it on the cross to pay for all our sins. He also sacrificed it by being born “under law” (Gal 4:4) in order to keep the law perfectly in our place. With his life, he qualified us for heaven. “Through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous” (Rom 5:19).

Jesus encourages us to be perfect, just like his Father in heaven is perfect.

He grace is sufficient to make up any shortfall between perfection and unperfection.

But you had better be on the road to perfection (i.e if you love me keep my commandments) or I believe he will not come to your rescue.

Peter1000 · Jan 13, 2019

Phoebe Ann said:
No, we are not supposed to waste time doing pointless works for the dead. Dead people don't turn their hearts to us. That's Mormon mythology. Living fathers should be teaching and nurturing their children and providing for their living families as well as their widowed mothers. They should visit the sick and those in prison.

Genealogy is not a miracle and doesn't produce miracles.

Click to expand...

Let the spiritually dead bury the dead and if you are a Christian go share your faith or help your neighbor or provide for the sick or teach your children how to harvest wheat or balance a bank account.

Hebrews 9
27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

Genealogy is not a miracle and doesn't produce miracles.

For one who has not done much genealogy, you can't even comment on the miracles that I have experienced with genealogy. Sorry for your loss.

So you too believe that billions and billions of Gods choicest creation, (humans) He will automatically abandon them to hell for not hearing his name and choosing to believe or not. Is that how your God thinks? I don't think so, try again.

dzheremi · Jan 13, 2019

Peter1000 said:
God is the one that saves mankind. But God will not come to earth every time someone has the baptism of the spirit and wants to have the baptism of the water and baptize them.

What? So the Holy Spirit is not God in Mormonism, then? That's interesting. I don't know what to make of this idea, as it thoroughly contradicts Holy Scripture. (John 1:29-33, for instance.)

So yes, everything is up to God, and God chooses men to do His work on earth. That is why he gives them His power and authority, which is called the priesthood.

Yes, I am aware of this Mormon view of what priesthood is. It does not correspond exactly to that of Christian churches (e.g., it's not given to twelve year olds or whatever), but it is roughly comparable in that we would say that the priest is given the power and authority from God to perform His work among His people and to supplicate on his and their behalf before the altar of God in the liturgy.

God is not going to come down and tell you face to face that He lives

Except when He does, as with Moses.

Though I suppose technically Moses went up to Him, as was proper in that time before the incarnation of our Lord when the veil was rent.

he sends His Holy Spirit to do that work. God is not going to come down to earth and baptize every person who believes and want to get baptized. he sends his men that hold the holy priesthood to do that work. Does that make sense?

I guess, except for the part where the Holy Spirit is not God and does not come upon the person at baptism, even though holy scripture says He does. Do Mormons not believe that Pentecost happened, then?

If you reject the words of God to Malachi in the Bible, so be it. What other parts of the Bible do you reject?

None of it. Only your interpretation of it, which is not the same thing.

Peter1000 · Jan 13, 2019

dzheremi said:
Because He said so, in that case and in others. e.g., when He told the woman in the Gospel of St. Luke that her faith had saved her. As recorded also in the Gospel of St. John, He told the woman "Go forth and sin no more", and not "Go forth and be baptized for all your dead relatives/acquaintances and people you've never met, because I'm not going to go to them." The harrowing of Hell happened, and Christ saving those who had faith in Him not only happened, but still happens.

Yes, we do. Have you not read John 3:16, possibly the most oft-quoted Bible verse of all time? "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life."

Whoever is whoever, not "whoever happened to be lucky enough to live in late Roman Judaea when our Lord Jesus Christ and His most honored and blessed holy apostles and disciples taught."

What you have is a reflection of the limited and weak gods that you serve in the Mormon religion, and nothing more -- certainly nothing true, at any rate. In Christianity, the incarnation of Christ our God is precisely the unbounded Word taking on and uniting the bounded flesh to Himself, without change, without confusion, and without mixture. As such, He does not cease to be the holy and immortal Lord because He has come down into time (which is a human concept that we have no reason to assume even applies to the afterlife; in fact, the Bible tends to suggest otherwise when it says that one day with the Lord is as a thousand years), but rather remains unbounded as shown by the very nature of His existence: the fact that He is risen from the dead, the fact that He descends into Hades and preaches to the people there, and so on.

Your gods, in sharp distinction to the above, seem to need you do things that they cannot or will not do, like offering life to the dead. But life, as you should well know if you are going to claim Christianity, is the providence and prerogative of God alone, such that no mere man can even offer it. After all, how was it that Jesus drew the ire of the religious Jews around Him in the first place, such that they accused Him of blasphemy and sought to stone Him? They said He made Himself God (John 10:33) by teaching as He did that He gives His sheep eternal life, and that He and the Father are one. (John 10:28-30)

And so you make the work of God into a work by man! That is true blasphemy.

Yes, and anyone with eyes to see and a brain to make the comparison can see the vast difference between Mormonism and Christianity in this and many other areas, so I trust the reader to understand how deeply, deeply anti-God and anti-Christian the Mormon religion is. You say you have all of these things, all of these ways that the Lord has given to you via Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdry or whoever, but you do not recognize how they destroy faith in our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ by replacing it with these strange dead rituals that are not attested to anywhere in the history of the Christian religion but among heretics and God-haters like Marcion or the parasitic Gnostic sects. Lord have mercy.

You say, a man will live life once, and and after this faces the judgement. Do you believe that God will throw away billions and billions of his creations, just because on earth they did not hear the gospel of Jesus Christ?

We say no. God has a plan for everyone to hear the gospel and to have the saving ordinances needed to enter into the KOG. Work for the dead is the plan that we believe will bring EL to all of the creations of God, not just a few that were lucky to hear his name and believe on him while living on earth.

You say, God will take care of it. We say, this is how He will. Make fun of it if you will, but at least we feel like we know the will of God concerning those dead who have never heard the gospel of Jesus Christ. We love our father, we love the work, we love God and Jesus and he is prospering our good works.

dzheremi · Jan 13, 2019

Peter1000 said:
You say, a man will live life once, and and after this faces the judgement. Do you believe that God will throw away billions and billions of his creations, just because on earth they did not hear the gospel of Jesus Christ?

Did I not write the exact opposite of this in the post you are responding to?

Whoever is whoever, not "whoever happened to be lucky enough to live in late Roman Judaea when our Lord Jesus Christ and His most honored and blessed holy apostles and disciples taught."

Did you somehow not catch this? Please read more carefully. Your reply is malformed because it is replying to not only something I did not say, but something I actually directly argued against.

This does not give me high hopes for the rest of our interaction in this thread, Peter.

We say no.

And in that we agree.

God has a plan for everyone to hear the gospel and to have the saving ordinances needed to enter into the KOG. Work for the dead is the plan that we believe will bring EL to all of the creations of God, not just a few that were lucky to hear his name and believe on him while living on earth.

And that's all fine, in the context of Mormonism. But for those of us who are Christians, this is very heretical. Again, the sects which practiced this were all denounced (e.g., the Marcionites, the Christian Gnostics) and decidedly outside of the Christian fold by a very early date (Marcion himself and his parallel church movement being condemned in the 140s and 150s). What Mormonism presents as a revelation from God to Joseph Smith regarding this matter is in actually just the repackaging of a very ancient heresy, probably without knowing that it was such (I kind of doubt that JS spent much time reading Church history, as if he had he likely would not have founded Mormonism). But we who follow Christ do know this, and we know what actually happened as recorded in the scriptures and the fathers on Christ's harrowing of hell, which is thereby referenced in hymns (e..g, the Byzantine Troparion for the Resurrection, quoted earlier), depicted in icons, and so on. You cannot just come in with an alternate idea that has been rejected for at least the last 1,800 years and claim that as "God" told JS or whoever about this, this is what everyone should be doing. No. No thank you. We knew this was wrong nearly two millennia before JS was even born.

You say, God will take care of it. We say, this is how He will.

That's the thing: the "this is how He will" is already known and recognized! You post as though Mormonism has some 'extra knowledge' or something by reviving ancient heresies in this area as opposed to just sticking with what the Bible and the Church have always said. It's strange. You don't have more than we do you; you have a ritual that we wouldn't do in the first place because it's wrong, and some theology that is also wrong tied up in that. That's it, and it's not a good thing at all.

Make fun of it if you will

I don't intend to make fun of it. I mean, yes, it is ludicrous, and you can find some passages in some of the fathers that actually do make fun of it because it so "out there", but when you get right down to it is wrong belief and wrong practice. And there's nothing particularly funny about that.

but at least we feel like we know the will of God concerning those dead who have never heard the gospel of Jesus Christ. We love our father, we love the work, we love God and Jesus and he is prospering our good works.

And I'm not one to deny you your feelings. I'm just saying that with respect to what is actually acceptable in Christianity, this is not one of those things, so regardless of why you feel you need to do it, we know that we do not, because we know that Christ has already offered life to those who are in the tombs, and will save who He will, and baptizing dead people does nothing for them, and is not what God has ordained.

Rescued One · Jan 13, 2019

Peter1000 said:
For one who has not done much genealogy, you can't even comment on the miracles that I have experienced with genealogy. Sorry for your loss.

Why do you dare to say I haven't done much genealogy? You are so mistaken! I started when I was fifteen and not even aware of your religion! I've traced one line to the Mayflower, many lines to colonial America, several lines to Europe. I've traveled to several different states and visited cemeteries, libraries, and courthouses. I even spoke with a Catholic priest in a rural county. Please stop assuming you know facts that you don't know at all.

Peter1000 said:
So you too believe that billions and billions of Gods choicest creation, (humans) He will automatically abandon them to hell for not hearing his name and choosing to believe or not. Is that how your God thinks? I don't think so, try again.

Isaiah 55
7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.

9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

Please stop suggesting that I believe something I've never said! My God is just and wise. His choices are always right. His words are true.

His words are a light to my path.

twin.spin · Jan 13, 2019

Peter1000 said:
So the billions of billions of people who have never heard the name of Jesus will be sent to hell, with no chance of hearing his gospel and then making a decision to believe or not?

Yes, that is what Jesus revealed:

"He that believeth on him is not condemned:
he that believeth not is condemned already,
because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." John 3:18 KJV

People are not condemned to a post-death second opportunity to hear the gospel.

twin.spin · Jan 13, 2019

Peter1000 said:
Jesus encourages us to be perfect, just like his Father in heaven is perfect.

He grace is sufficient to make up any shortfall between perfection and unperfection.

But you had better be on the road to perfection (i.e if you love me keep my commandments) or I believe he will not come to your rescue.

1) Jesus does no such thing as to encourage … it is a present tense standard.

"Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." Mat 5:48 KJV

This is what was revealed in the OT, the command was revealed in the present tense:

"For I am the Lord that bringeth you up out of the land of Egypt, to be your God: ye shall therefore be holy, for I am holy." Lev 11:45 KJV

2) Grace isn't some stop gap measure to make up any shortfalls between imperfection and perfection. Nor is grace some last moment intervention which he grants to people "only after they have done everything they can do".
God does not reveal a plan of salvation based on obedience to all the commands \ laws and ordinances … a ladder to climb … a progression to exaltation.

A shortfall grace is not a gospel hope … it's rather the door to outer darkness.

BigDaddy4 · Jan 14, 2019

Peter1000 said:
So the billions of billions of people who have never heard the name of Jesus will be sent to hell, with no chance of hearing his gospel and then making a decision to believe or not?

You keep saying this, but it does not make it true. The Bible is true, and deals with these "billions of billions of people". You just can't admit it, apparently.

Peter1000 · Jan 14, 2019

BigDaddy4 said:
You keep saying this, but it does not make it true. The Bible is true, and deals with these "billions of billions of people". You just can't admit it, apparently.

You keep saying this, but can tell me nothing as to how the Bible deals with these billions of billions of people, so admit that you do not know how these people get saved.

LDS LDS ‘The Hearts of the Children Shall Turn to Their Fathers’

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Trust the LORD and not on your own understanding

...yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me

...yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me

Trust the LORD and not on your own understanding

Coptic Orthodox non-Egyptian

...yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me

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Coptic Orthodox non-Egyptian

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Coptic Orthodox non-Egyptian

...yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me

Trust the LORD and not on your own understanding

Trust the LORD and not on your own understanding

It's a new season...

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