The Rule of faith and practice is not scripture "alone"

swordsman1 said:

You are taking that verse out of context. Jesus is predicting what would happen to believers in the future, after Pentecost. Here's the full passage..

Beware of men, for they will deliver you over to courts and flog you in their synagogues, and you will be dragged before governors and kings for my sake, to bear witness before them and the Gentiles. But when they hand you over, do not worry about how or what you are to say; for it will be given you in that hour what you are to say. For it is not you who speak, but it is the Spirit of your Father who speaks in you.​

When believers are dragged before the courts the Holy Spirit (the Spirit of the Father here) will give them the words to say as a special enabling. No disciple was dragged before the courts....

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Jesus was speaking of them going at that time in ministry as he said,

“ Matthew 10 - 5. These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: 6. But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”

This ministry started in Jerusalem later it would continue all over. But he told them to only go to Israel here. But the truth of the Father speaking in them when needed was at that very moment. You confound Jesus words to them if it did not apply to them then.

They already belonged to the Father and heard from the Father even before they were given to Jesus as we read,

John 17:6. I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.”

John 6 - 44. No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. 45. It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.”

Jesus also told his disciples that he gave them power to heal, cast out devil raise the dead and preach etc and they were successful at that time as we read,in the text of Luke.

And they may also have been dragged before the courts of every city they visited and at that time as well. Jesus told them what To do if they didn’t recieve them

Luke 10:8-11,17, 19-21 KJV “And into whatsoever city ye enter, and they receive you, eat such things as are set before you: 9. And heal the sick that are therein, and say unto them, The kingdom of God is come nigh unto you. 10. But into whatsoever city ye enter, and they receive you not, go your ways out into the streets of the same, and say, 11. Even the very dust of your city, which cleaveth on us, we do wipe off against you: notwithstanding be ye sure of this, that the kingdom of God is come nigh unto you... Luke 10 - 17. And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name...19. Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you. 20. Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven. 21. In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight.”

ICONO'CLAST said:

Jn14:26 was spoken only to them. You can believe what you want, but it does not change what is written,and to who it was written.

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Your correction is 1 Cor 2 and 1 John 2:27

Consider and let God change your thinking and mind to walk in His light.

ICONO'CLAST said:

Oh yes I did. It was not correct

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And so far you have not given any true correction of the scriptures I used or the way I used them. You simply say things like “it was not correct”

At least swordsman1 tries to answer with reasons for his disagreement and with his understanding of scripture and tries to give a laid out argument. His way is more noble than yours here.

ICONO'CLAST said:

Wrong as scripture easily correct you here.

Acts 2:39
"For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call."

Here is more of your correction. May God bless you as you consider these things.

Spoken to all believers

"And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God. 2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified. 3 And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling. 4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power: 5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God. 6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought: 7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: 8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. 10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. 11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. 13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."(1 Corinthians 2:1-14 KJV)

and yes it was spoken for all believers everywhere

"Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our's:"(1 Corinthians 1:2 KJV)

and when Jesus said what he said to the apostles. They are parts of the body of Christ the church and we read,

8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:...13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come."(John 16:8,13 KJV)

This is directly in line with 1 Cor 2 and Acts 2 when the Holy Ghost came upon all the disciples not just the aposltes. He will giude them into ALL truth just as he does in 1 John 2:27 where John speaks of the anointing that will teach them all things. This is the unction that helps them to know all things that God would give. As scripture clearly says,

"20 But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things....27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him."(1 John 2:20,27 KJV)

Clearly we just read that

The Holy Ghost teaches the saints and searches ALL THINGS ( 1 Cor 2

And the Spirit of truth will guide them into ALL TRUTH John 16:13 KJV)

And the anointing teaches them ALL THINGS

and the unction helps them to know ALL THINGS.

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ICONO'CLAST said:

Jn 16 was not promised to you but the Apostles only. Guess the Spirit did not guide you into proper hermenutics on these portions. You still do not understand.

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You need to fix this post 108 it looks like I said your words

ICONO'CLAST said:

It does not change who Jesus was speaking to in those chapters. You should have acknowledged your error by this time.

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What Jesus said to the apostles about the promise of the Holy Ghost is seen to all believers as well on Pentecost and beyond as we read in 1 Cor 2 and 2 John 2:27 etc

swordsman1 said:

No it was not. It plainly says the Spirit would only give them the words to say when they were dragged before governors and kings. That only occurred after Pentecost. If those words were meant for that immediate time then Jesus made a false prophecy. Your theory is wrong.

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No I’m speak the truth here Jesus was speaking to the 12 and what Jesus said would have applied to them THEN as he sent them out st that time. We see from Luke that there was success in those Jesus sent out at that time.

You just assume that they would not be dragged before the counsels and questioned at that time when Jesus sent then out Jesus says they would be meeting with opposition.

These words of Jesus also apply to them later and whenever they or anyone is sent out and after his death as well and I believe for all believers to come as I can show with other scriptures as well.

Also consider that Jesus said they would be persecuted in thier ministry to Isreal here,

Matthew 10: 14. And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet. 15. Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city. 16. Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. 17. But beware of men: for they will deliver you up to the councils, and they will scourge you in their synagogues;”

Matthew 10:23, 34 “But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come. 24. The disciple is not above his master, nor the servant above his lord.”

You are wrong again as most all your understanding is in this matter.

swordsman1 said:

No, you are quite wrong here. The "seed" in 1 John 3:9 is not referring to Abraham's seed, his spiritual offspring. There is no mention of Abraham in that passage.

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You are wrong again.

And what do you mean when you say Abraham's spiritual offspring? God alone gives life and all believers are "his offspring" Your confusion here is being magnified more and more.

Acts 17:28
For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring., "

We are the children of God. The expression "children of Abraham" is speaking of believers walking in the same steps as Abraham by faith

"12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised."(Galatians 4:12 KJV)

And yes, Christ dwells in the heart by faith, and the Holy Ghost has a specific work and part of this work is to strengthens us in this action and immersion into Christ (1 Cor 12;13). The Word of Christ dwells in us and has a specific work.

All OT saints had faith, read Hebrews 11 and see that they had the substance of things hoped for the evidence of things unseen. They had Christ in them the hope of glory. This is the mystery hid from ages.This is the secret things that are in the heart in the inner part.

But the seed of Abraham is Christ as the text infers clearly we read

"7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. 8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. 9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham...14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ [this is distinct from the Spirit in this section referring to the Holy Ghost baptism, we don't say that Jesus CHRIST is the Holy Ghost although the Father the Word and the Holy Ghost are one]

; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit [this is distinct from the words "Jesus Christ" in this section and shows another distinct person here]

through faith....16 Now to Abraham and his seed [his seed refers to Christ in Abraham]

were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one [this is reinforced here to show that Paul is not speaking of the physical seed of Abraham, or even others that he himself brings forth but one seed which is Christ in Him, this seed is the word of God sown "his seed" simply means he belonged to Christ and Christ was in Him Jesus said in John 15 I in you and you in me],

And to thy seed, which is Christ [Paul clearly says here that Abrahams seed and our seed is Christ. This shows that Paul is not speaking of the Holy Ghost promise in the baptism with the Holy Ghost in Abraham's day, for this had not yet happened].

...29 And if ye be Christ's,[speaking to present day believers who were of the same seed, Christ, he calls this earlier "thy seed, which is Christ"] then are ye Abraham's seed,[again Paul connects Abrahams seed with Christ.] and heirs according to the promise."(Galatians 3:7-9, 14,16,29 KJV)

When we read that in Issac shall thy seed be called. This is not referring to the physical line again but Issac is a type of the Son and Abraham a type of the Father. The Father (God) gave his only begotten Son (God) to die for our sins and He was raised again from the dead. We read of Abraham (who is a father) giving his only begotten son (Issac) and knowing that God could raise him from the dead as well,

"17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son, 18 Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called: 19 Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure."(Hebrews 11;17-19 KJV)

swordsman1 said:

And it wouldn't make sense to say that Abraham's spiritual offspring remains inside believers. Its referring to the word of God sown in our hearts

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Show me the words "Abrahams spiritual offspring", Those exact words.

The seed is not referring to Abraham bringing forth life from himself. But rather the seed, or the word of God in him which is Christ which he had dwell in him through faith. Old Testament saints did eat and drink of Christ 1 Cor 10.

We already saw how Paul speaks of Christ, and connects Christ with the word nigh unto them in the OT in Deuteronomy 30 and he shows clearly that Christ was there in mystery. Christ was not totally hidden from them if their hearts did not turn away and if they would hear the voice of God in them.

swordsman1 said:

"the seed is the word of God" (Luke 8:11).

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Yes, and this seed is sown in the hearts as we see in Luke 8. This is the word of God sown by God . I believe this parable is speaking of God sowing Christ the seed in the hearts of men shining in then as the true Light which lighteth EVERY man that cometh into the world (John 1:9). This seed is what gives life and how men are born again even before Christ came in the flesh. Christ always was and His work in the hearts of men has been going on in mystery since the beginning. This seed sown in the heart which is the word of God is the same seed of Abraham, Abel, and Noah, and Sarah, and Enoch and all way before any scripture was given. This seed, is Christ in all believers the hope of glory. This seed is the same seed in 1 John 3:9. The word "seed' is the same Greek word used in Galatians 3 when speaking of Abraham's seed.

But in the parable in Luke 8 we read that the seed is sown in the hearts of all. The four soils cover every type of heart of all men and there is no creature on earth , past of present that does not fit into one of these soils. This seed is the word of God sown in the heart. This word of God was spoken forth by the prophets who were empowered by the Spirit as well to do so. Christ was in them as well and the Spirit came upon them also as the were given power.

But we read that the word of God is a discerner of the thoughts and intent of the heart of EVERY creature under heaven. Not just those after Christ death and resurrection as we read here,

"12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. 13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do."(Hebrews 4:12,13 KJV)

Here we see clearly that this word of God quick (or alive), and this word of God is sown in every creature and all their hearts are manifest or revealed to God. God searches the hearts of all men.

swordsman1 said:

"for you have been born again not of seed which is perishable but imperishable, that is, through the living and enduring word of God" (1 Peter 1:23).​

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You error again here, the text sows how to be born again,. The expression "born again" is speaking of being born from above. The word of God is spirit and life. This is the seed, the word of God, Christ in them.

"23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever...25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you."(1 Peter 1:23,25 KJV)

The word works in those who believe, Christ works in believers and they are said to be IN Christ and and if they abide in him and continue in His word then they have the word, or seed in them and they cannot sin because they are born of God (1 John 3:9 KJV).

In 1 John 3:9 we read on and see that Abel was born again and of God a child of God and John had said that if any man worketh righteousness he is born of him. We know that Abel worked righteousness and had faith in Hebrews 11.

The new birth is connected to the "engrafted word" which is able to save our souls. This is the word of truth by which we are born again. as we read,

"18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures...21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls."(James 1:18,21 KJV)

So far we have seen that the new birth is connected to the seed, the word of God and now to Christ formed in us as Paul said,

Galatians 4:19
"My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you,"

We also see the OT saints also born again by the word of God,

"10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me. 11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me. 12 Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit."Psalm 51:10-12 KJV)

Psalm 119:50
This is my comfort in my affliction: for thy word hath quickened me."

Psalm 119:40
Behold, I have longed after thy precepts: quicken me in thy righteousness."

Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is quick, and powerful,

Ephesians 2:1
And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;"

2 Corinthians 4:7
But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

We see men showing evidence that they were being born again (born of the Spirit, by the word of God) before The cross (though not without the cross in time). One of many examples is here, (remember the Holy Ghost had not been given yet).

Matthew 16:16
"And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God."

This showed that Peter was born again and that he had God dwelling in him as we read,

"Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God:"(1 John 5;1 KJV)
and
"15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God."

"Whosoever" covers literally whosoever, anyone. Here we see that Christ was dwelling in the hearts at that time before the Holy Ghost was given. The Holy Ghost baptism was to receive power and like a fountain bubbling up the water they already had in them (spiritually speaking). The Holy Ghost was not yet given, but the Father and the Son could walk in them and be in them at that time.

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swordsman1 said:

You are wrong again. Christ only "dwells in our hearts" by virtue of his Spirit within us:

Eph 3:16-17 "that according to the riches of his glory he may grant you to be strengthened with power through his Spirit in your inner being, so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith"​

In trying to defend your false teaching, you have unwittingly provided further proof that Christ "in" us is God's indwelling Spirit. Old Testament believers were not indwelt with the Spirit as we are.

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No you are not accurate here as in many places. I do believe that Christ is God, God the Son, the word, the seed. I also believe that the Father is God and the Holy Ghost is God. These three are one.

But as far as the verses in Ephesians consider,

"11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow. 12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into."(Ephesians 3:11,12 KJV)

Before we get to Ephesians 3:16,17 we see here in vs's 11 and 12 of Ephesians 3, that the Spirit of Christ was in them in the OT and testified of the sufferings of Christ before they happened. This would seem to be Christ in them speaking and revealing things to them. If we say that the Spirit of Christ here is the Holy Ghost, then the ministry of the Holy Ghost through Christ was working in accordance with Christ but still distinct. We read of verses that speak of all three in such wording as this where God is speaking of the Lord God and His Spirit sending Him,

"15 I, even I, have spoken; yea, I have called him: I have brought him, and he shall make his way prosperous. 16 Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord God, and his Spirit, hath sent me. 17 Thus saith the Lord, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I am the Lord thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go."(Isaiah 48:15-17 KJV)

Is not the first one speaking the Lord God? yes, and is not he Spirit? yes and is not the Lord God Spirit, Yes, and clearly "his Spirit " is Spirit. So why the distinction here of the Lord God and His Spirit.

This may be to distinguish certain functions and ministrations of the Lord. But they are still there.

If we say there is the Father the Word and the Holy Ghost, then what is the Father? if we say Spirit (which he is) then what is the distinction between the person of the Father and the Son and the Holy Ghost? This is where the trinity speaks to each in their work and effects.

But back to Ephesians 3 again. in the same chapter 3 vs's 11 and 12 we see Paul uses the expression "Spirit of Christ " and Christ", and then he speaks of the "Holy Ghost" in the very next verse. This is for a reason. Paul did not say that the "Spirit of Christ" was the "Holy Ghost" here or he could have used the same words. But he makes a distinction. This is part of the issue that we have been looking at.

Now look at Ephesians 3 a few verses down from 11 and 12 and consider the text again,

16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man; 17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,"(Ephesians 4:16,17 KJV)

Here we see the work of the Holy Ghost to strengthen with might, we receive power after that the Holy Ghost is come upon us. This strengthening is to enable us and to be witnesses. But in the very next verse we read "that Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith". Here again we see two distinct persons one "His Spirit" the other "Christ". That is how it appears to me in the sections from vs's 11,12,16,17. As I shared before I believe the Holy Ghost immerses us into the body of Christ and Jesus baptizes us with the Holy Ghost (1 Cor 12:13 and Matthew 3:11 KJV). We drink in the water of life. This is what we have from Jesus Christ in us, and we are empowered by the Holy Ghost where the water bubbles up from within us. This is a distinct work than drinking of the water. If i show you a pool of water and it is still and then a bubbling fountain coming from that water. There is a distinction in the effect and difference.

"37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.
38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)"(John 7:37-39 KJV)

We see another aspect of this when Jesus said

"24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life."(John 5:24 KJV)

Here we see that to heareth the word in their heart and believeth on him that sent him HATH (present tense) everlasting life. and "is" passed from death unto life. So here we see that this is salvation in Christ. They were born again, for except a man be born again he cannot see the kingdom of God, This is to have God dwelling in them, both the Father and the Son and not speaking of the Holy Ghost being given yet. Though I believe the Holy Ghost immerses men into Christ and that Christ dwells in their heart by faith. The various work of the Father the Son and the Holy Ghost is discussion for an whole different post.

As believers now, in the New Covenant, we have the Father, the Son (Christ, the word, the seed) in us and the Holy Ghost. The overlap in many verses is clearly seen in scripture. we see the work of all three in many places.

I showed you this distinction in another place where it says

9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you."(Romans 8:9-11 KJV)

Here we see all the work of the Trinity I believe. We read of different words used the Spirit of God and then the Spirit of Christ and Christ in you, and then the Spirit ( Holy Ghost) that raised up Christ from the dead. If the Spirit here is referred to the Holy Ghost then we must conclude that this is not talking about Christ that was raised from the dead. Paul distinguished the Spirit from Christ here. Christ came in the flesh, and died on the cross This is Jesus Christ. And Jesus Christ is in every believer. Yes the Father is also in every believer and the Holy Ghost. But the distinction is there never the less. And each has a specific work.

We see Paul use (or rather God revealing to him) in a few verses different distinctions

the Spirit of God, the Spirit of Christ, Christ be in you, Christ, the Spirit

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swordsman1 said:

Yes, you're doing well so far. Abraham's seed is Abraham's spiritual offspring (ie believers).



No, you are quite wrong here. The "seed" in 1 John 3:9 is not referring to Abraham's seed, his spiritual offspring. There is no mention of Abraham in that passage. And it wouldn't make sense to say that Abraham's spiritual offspring remains inside believers. Its referring to the word of God sown in our hearts:

"the seed is the word of God" (Luke 8:11). ​

"for you have been born again not of seed which is perishable but imperishable, that is, through the living and enduring word of God" (1 Peter 1:23).​

You are wrong again. Christ only "dwells in our hearts" by virtue of his Spirit within us:

Eph 3:16-17 "that according to the riches of his glory he may grant you to be strengthened with power through his Spirit in your inner being, so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith"​

In trying to defend your false teaching, you have unwittingly provided further proof that Christ "in" us is God's indwelling Spirit. Old Testament believers were not indwelt with the Spirit as we are.

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This is a main question?

"5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?"(2 Corinthians 13:5 KJV)

Do you say that Paul is referring to the "Holy Ghost" or is it "Jesus Christ" the Son of God?
and the second question we read,

"2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: 3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist,..."(1 John 4:2,3 KJV)

Who came in the flesh? can you say that Christ "person" here is the Holy Ghost "person" of the Godhead?

Here we see that Christ came in the flesh, not the Father or the Holy Christ here. Christ died for our sins, not the father or the Holy Ghost. Christ is in believers as distinct from the Father and the Holy Ghost.

Do you believe that Christ was existant before he came to the earth and before he came in the flesh? if so who was he? And was he Spirit? We read that Christ is in believers, this is identified as Jesus Christ. Do you see Jesus Christ as the person of the Holy Ghost? or the person of the Son of God?

Some thoughts on the use of the word "Christ" see if they are speaking of the Holy Ghost here or Jesus Christ the Son of God, we read

Mark 1:1
The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;"

2 Corinthians 5:19
To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Mark 9:41
For whosoever shall give you a cup of water to drink in my name, because ye belong to Christ, verily I say unto you, he shall not lose his reward."

John 20:31
But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name."

Acts 2:38
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name [in the character virtue, life and power] of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.'[two distinct persons spoken of here, Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost.

Romans 6:8
Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:"

Romans 13:14
But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof."

2 Corinthians 13:3
Since ye seek a proof of Christ speaking in me, which to you-ward is not weak, but is mighty in you."

Galatians 1:1
Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead"

Compare this with

Romans 8:11 "11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you."

It seems that the Father and the Spirit are involved in this. Or the Spirit spoken of in Romans 8:11 is the Father.

2 Corinthians 13:5
Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?"

and here is a good one

2 Corinthians 13:14
The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen"

Galatians 2:20
I am crucified with Christ:[this is an inward circumcision of the heart and connected to Christ death on the cross He is not speaking of the Holy Ghost here as seems apparent] nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me:[This is Christ in him, this is the seed or word or truth, the true Light which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.] and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

three distinct persons yet one God in being. Here we see that the Holy Ghost is distinct from the Lord Jesus Christ.

I think the real understanding of the Trintiy troubles you. You seem to lean more to the "Onness heresy camp". Just an observation from some of your words.

We see the trinity all over and the different administrations or work . Notice the distinct persons spoken of and their work.

"3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.
4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all."

swordsman1 said:

If they are not separate Spirits then they must be the same Spirit.

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Again you are trying to figure out the mystery of the Godhead and the Trinity with your human reasoning. We can simply say that the Father the Word and the Holy Ghost that "these three are one" (1John 5:7 KJV).

You need to define what the tree are and the one. We say that there is one God in being and who exist in three persons. And as i showed we read of the Spirit of the father speaking, the Spirit of the Son and the Holy Ghost. we see all three are distinct and yet one God

2 Corinthians 13:14
The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen"

Do you say the person of Holy Ghost is the person of Lord Jesus Christ in this verse?

Your theology does not sound orthadox (so called), but is seems more leaning towards the Onness heresy to me.

swordsman1 said:

So we have the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit (aka Spirit of Christ, Spirit of Father) - which my view and that of orthodox Christianity.

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This is your confused stuff here and again it sounds more like Onenes heresy leaning to me.

You say the Holy Ghost is the Spirit of the Father and the Spirit of Christ. yet Christ died on the cross and Christ came in the flesh. The Father and the Holy Ghost did not come on the flesh as far as scripture says.

And when Christ works in the heart and believers are said to be in Christ and Christ in them. This is a spiritual reality in the heart

Galatians 6:18
Brethren, the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit. Amen."

This is identified as the Lord Jesus Christ in them Jesus Christ here is in Spirit in our hearts and so the Spirit of Christ in us. Do you say this Lord Jesus Christ is the person of the Holy Ghost in this instance?

or how about this one,

2 Corinthians 13:5
Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?"

If Jesus Christ is in us, this is Him in Spirit in us, not physically in us. Christ came in the flesh and died on the cross. He came down from above and was always existant.God was in Christ. The Father did not die on the cross or the Holy Ghost.


The seed sown in Abraham and all believers through faith, is Christ. Paul said;

Galatians 3:16,29.
Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ....And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise."

This cannot be the Holy Ghost specifically here because the Holy Ghost was not yet given in the Old Testament.

swordsman1 said:

If they are not the same then we have the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Christ, and the Spirit of the Father - your unorthodox view.

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This is your confusion again. There is one God in being three in person. But just what the father is and the Son and the Holy Ghost, we say they are Spirit.As I showed you the Spirit of the father and His person is distinct from the Spirit of His Son and His person and the Holy Ghost and His person.Unless you just try to make the Oneness heresy or Jesus only heresy. They see God as just flipping hats so to speak. He is the father from heaven at Jesus Baptism, then he sort of zips down to the Son and speaks then he zips around and comes down as the Holy Ghost in the form of a dove. But this is not scripture.

At Jesus Baptism we see three distinct aspects. We see the Father speaking from heaven. The Son, Jesus Christ in the water and the Holy Ghost descending as a dove.

Three yet One God and each distinct in their work.

Also I see "these three are one", not 5 as you speak.

The Spirit of the Father the Spirit of Christ (which is the Son of God, Jesus Christ, the Word made flesh, Christ come in the flesh) and the Holy Ghost.

You try to create a strawman by implying that I make "the Father"and "the Spirit of the Father" different. This is false and a error. The Father is God and God is a Spirit. So the Spirit of the Father is a distinct person in the One God just as the Spirit of Christ is also a distinct person and the Holy Ghost is a distinct person.

If you try to eliminate the distinction of them being Spirit, you would have no real meaning to the word "persons" either.
What does persons mean to you in the Godhead? What are they are who and how are they distinct? And what is Spirit? How can the father be distinguished as the Spirit of the father from the Spirit of the Son? yet one God? i believe the trinity but the mystery is great. Yet scripture is clear and God reveals these things in the Spirit.

I also see the Spirit of Christ and "Christ" and "Jesus Christ " the same way. Paul even says that Christ died for our sins. But we know this is also speaking of Jesus Christ who died for our sins (1 Cor 15:1-4 KJV). These are all speaking of the person of Jesus Christ the Son of God. Jesus Christ the Son of God is in all believers and this is because he is in Spirit in us, not physically. So we say the Spirit of Christ. If any man have not the Spirit of Christ he is none of his. This must also refer to all OT saints some of whom we see in Hebrews 11. These were all said to have faith and Christ dwells in the heart by faith. Abraham had the seed Christ in him as well. (Gal 3).

No man can know who the Father is but to whom the Son reveal him and no man can know who the Son is but to whom the Father reveal him.

swordsman1 said:

The Spirit of the Father doesn't have to be "in" someone for Him to reveal something to that person.

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Matthew 10:20
For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you."

God is a Spirit and only our spirit can know the things of God as scripture says. This is true for the Father or the Jesus Christ in us or the Holy Ghost ,

"11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. 13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."(1 Cor 2:11-14 KJV)

So, no man in the natural, or flesh or carnal mind can even know the things of the Spirit, for they are Spiritually discerned. This shows that God speaks to our spiritual man.