The Rule of faith and practice is not scripture "alone"

LoveofTruth

Christ builds His church from within us
Jun 29, 2015
6,385
1,750
✟167,289.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
No. I believe that "Christ in us" is the Spirit of Christ.

What scripture?
Galatians 6:18
Brethren, the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit. Amen."

This is identified as the Lord Jesus Christ in them Jesus Christ here is in Spirit in our hearts and so "the Spirit of Christ" in us. Do you say this Lord Jesus Christ is the person of the Holy Ghost in this instance?

or how about this one,

2 Corinthians 13:5
Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?"


If Jesus Christ is in us, this is Him in Spirit in us, not physically in us.

"16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.
17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;


19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation."(2 Cor 5:16-19 KJV)


Christ came in the flesh and died on the cross. He came down from above and was always existant.We read that God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself. The Father did not die on the cross or the Holy Ghost.

Also, before Jesus Christ came in the flesh he was in heaven and since God was in Christ and God is a Spirit then Christ is Spirit as well, before he came in the flesh. Then God was manifest in the flesh this is the Word made flesh , Jesus Christ come in the flesh. He is fully God and fully man. But The Spirit of Christ also is in every believer. This is referred to as "Jesus Christ" in us and who is in every believer.

I am concerned that by saying Christ is different from Spirit it creates a confusion. What was Christ before he came to earth if not Spirit and what is Christ in believers if not the Spirit of Christ.

If anyone says that Jesus Christ came in the flesh and Jesus Christ is in all believers that is good. But if any say the Holy Ghost came in the flesh or that the words "Jesus Christ is in you"(2 Cor 13:5) is not Jesus Christ the Son of God and instead this is referring to the Holy Ghost this is not right and they may be denying that Jesus Christ (the Son of God, the Word of God, the Seed )and this is a concern,

"2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world."(1 John 4:2,3 KJV)

Do you say that 1 John 4:2,3 should not be referred to Jesus Christ and instead the Holy Ghost?

And do you say that 2 Cor 13:5 should not refer to Jesus Christ in us and instead the Holy Ghost in us these sections?

Remember Jesus Christ in believers and the Father in believers and the Holy Ghost working in us all have distinct work.

The word "Christ" is connected to Jesus Christ in so many places in scripture. Show me the Holy Ghost is called "Christ" in scripture I need to see the words "Holy Ghost".

I showed you this verse which shows the clear distinction of all three . Here the person of the Holy Ghost is not called the person of the Lord Jesus Christ .

"2 Corinthians 13:14
The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen"


Same way you separate Christ from the Holy Spirit.
I don not separate the trinity, these three are one

How do you understand three? and one?

what does three mean to you in relation to the Father the Word and the Holy Ghost?
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

LoveofTruth

Christ builds His church from within us
Jun 29, 2015
6,385
1,750
✟167,289.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
The "seed" in 1 John 3:9 is not referring to Abraham's seed,
same Greek word same meaning

"σπέρμα spérma, sper'-mah; from G4687; something sown, i.e. seed (including the male "sperm"); by implication, offspring; specially, a remnant (figuratively, as if kept over for planting):—issue, seed."

the seed is Christ (Gal 3)

the seed is the word of God (Luke 8)
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

LoveofTruth

Christ builds His church from within us
Jun 29, 2015
6,385
1,750
✟167,289.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
No it was not. It plainly says the Spirit would only give them the words to say when they were dragged before governors and kings. That only occurred after Pentecost. If those words were meant for that immediate time then Jesus made a false prophecy. Your theory is wrong.
No you are wrong here.
Jesus clearly was speaking to them and telling them what would happen to them as they went about to the cities in Israel. He also may have (I say may Have) been including all the ministry they would have later on and the other ministers who he would send in the future as well. But this commission is not the same commission as in Matthew 28 after Jesus died and rose again.This commission was to the Gentiles which would be included in "all nations" at that time.

""19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:"(Matthew 28:19 KJV)

The commission he gave in Matthew 10 was NOT to the Gentiles. He specifically said not to go to the way of the Gentiles but to the house of Israel and the cities round about. Jesus mentioned not to go to the Gentiles or the Samaratins. I am not sure if they would have gone near some of the Gentile cities where the dispersion of the Jews were at this time. The expression go not into the way of the gentiles needs some study. But if so that would cover other parts of the chapter. Either way there were Gentiles all through the land and Romans who would be encountered as well in their journey.

"5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: 6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."(Matthew 10:5,6 KJV)

23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come."(Matthew 10:23 KJV)

Jesus knew that the way the Pharisees and others treated him and that they would also treat his disciples similar. So he tells them that in their journey to the lost sheep of the house of Israel certain things would happen. There were also Kings they might have met and brought before even in Israel. And other leaders among the Jews and Gentiles in the land and areas surrounding them. Certain troubles would come upon them in that specific mission they were sent. We have no reason to assume that many of these things did not happen

Jesus said

16 Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves:"

They were going into cities that were filled with wolves. There would be problems

"11 And into whatsoever city or town ye shall enter, enquire who in it is worthy; and there abide till ye go thence. 12 And when ye come into an house, salute it. 13 And if the house be worthy, let your peace come upon it: but if it be not worthy, let your peace return to you. 14 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.15 Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city." But beware of men: for they will deliver you up to the councils, and they will scourge you in their synagogues; 18 And ye shall be brought before governors and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them and the Gentiles."(Matthew 10:11-15,17, 18 KJV)

The "and" part could be what they experienced at that time or extended to their ministry later. But so far this commission is not to the nations or Gentiles or Samaritans. So we can only say it is for them at that time in Israel.

And so the Spirit of thier Father would speak in them before and after the cross.

They all belonged to the Father already and heard from the Father before Jesus even called them to ministry.

John 17:6. I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.”

 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

LoveofTruth

Christ builds His church from within us
Jun 29, 2015
6,385
1,750
✟167,289.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
There is absolutely no indication that God is doing the preaching. Paul is talking about gospel preaching from human to human. We can tell this from the very next verse "How will they preach unless they are sent?" Did someone send God to preach? Your interpretation is clearly false.

Paul speaks of Christ in them the word of Christ being near them and he referred them to Deut 30 which shows that Christ is not far from them, given Paul's revelation of the mystery that was hid when he says

"Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above ) 7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.) 8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;"(Romans 10 :6-8 KJV)

There is no ignoring Paul's words here about Christ and his connection to Deuteronomy 30 where God says the commandment is not hid from them, but the word is nigh unto them or close to them.

This shows that Paul was speaking of God in men speaking His word to them all along and that there was no difference from the

Can you show us a single respected commentator that agrees with your theory?

"Secondly, That for this end God hath communicated and given unto every man a measure of the Light of his own Son, a measure of grace, or a measure of the Spirit, which the Scripture expresses by several names, as sometimes of "the seed of the kingdom" (Matt. 13:18-19); the "Light that makes all things manifest" (Eph. 5:13); the "Word of God" (Rom. 10:17)" (Robert Barclay 1678)

"That this saving Light and Seed, or a measure of it, is given to all, Christ telleth expressly in the parable of the sower (Matt. 13 from v. 18; Mark 4, and Luke 8:11), he saith That this "seed" sown in those several sorts of grounds is the "Word of the Kingdom," which the apostle calls the Word of faith (Rom. 10:8, James 1:21),
ho.gif
logos.gif
emphutos.gif
, the "implanted ingrafted Word, which is able to save the soul"; the words themselves declare that it is that, which is saving, in the nature of it, for in the good ground, it fructified abundantly."(Robert Barclay 1678)


Twisting scripture as you are clearly doing is not what I would call "seeing things spiritually".
It only seems like twisting to those who cannot see.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

LoveofTruth

Christ builds His church from within us
Jun 29, 2015
6,385
1,750
✟167,289.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Can you show us a single respected commentator that agrees with your theory?
first of all God is no respecter of persons, and have not the faith of our Lord with respect of persons James 2.

"Secondly, That for this end God hath communicated and given unto every man a measure of the Light of his own Son, a measure of grace, or a measure of the Spirit, which the Scripture expresses by several names, as sometimes of "the seed of the kingdom" (Matt. 13:18-19); the "Light that makes all things manifest" (Eph. 5:13); the "Word of God" (Rom. 10:17)" (Robert Barclay 1678)


"That this saving Light and Seed, or a measure of it, is given to all, Christ telleth expressly in the parable of the sower (Matt. 13 from v. 18; Mark 4, and Luke 8:11), he saith That this "seed" sown in those several sorts of grounds is the "Word of the Kingdom," which the apostle calls the Word of faith (Rom. 10:8, James 1:21) the "implanted ingrafted Word, which is able to save the soul"; the words themselves declare that it is that, which is saving, in the nature of it, for in the good ground, it fructified abundantly."(Robert Barclay 1678)


Clement of Alexandria saith (lib. 2, Stromat.), "The divine Word hath cried, calling all, knowing well those that will not obey. And yet, because it is in our power either to obey or not to obey, that none may have a pretext of ignorance it hath made a righteous call and requireth but that which is according to the ability and strength of every one." The selfsame, in his Warning to the Gentiles: "For as" (saith he) "that heavenly ambassador of the Lord, the grace of God that brings salvation, hath appeared unto all, &c. This is the new song, coming, and manifestation of the Word which now shows itself in us, which was in the beginning and was first of all." And again, "Hear, therefore, ye that are afar off; hear ye who are near; the Word is hid from none, the Light is common to all and shineth to all. There is no darkness in the Word; let us hasten to salvation, to the new birth, that we, being many, may be gathered unto the one alone love." Ibid., he saith that "There is infused into all, but principally into those that are trained up in doctrine, a certain divine influence,." And again he speaketh concerning "the innate witness, worthy of belief, which of itself doth plainly choose that which is most honest." And again he saith, "That it is not impossible to come unto the Truth and lay hold of it, seeing it is most near to us, in our own houses, as the most wise Moses declareth, living in three parts of us: viz., in our hands, in our mouth, and in our heart. This," saith he, "is a most true badge of the Truth, which is also fulfilled in three things, namely in counsel, in action, in speaking." And again he saith also unto the unbelieving nations, "Receive Christ, receive Light, receive sight to the end thou mayest rightly know both God and man. The Word that hath enlightened us is more pleasant than gold, and the stone of great value." And again he saith, "Let us receive the Light that we may receive God; let us receive the Light that we may be the scholars of the Lord." And again he saith to those infidel nations, "The heavenly Spirit helpeth thee; resist and flee pleasure." Again (lib. Strom. 5) he saith, "God forbid that man be not a partaker of divine acquaintance, who in Genesis is said to be a partaker of inspiration." And (Paed. lib,. 1, cap. 3), "There is," saith he, "some lovely and some desirable thing in man which is called the in-breathing of God,." The same man (lib. Strom. 10) directeth men unto the Light and Water in themselves, who have the eye of the soul darkened or dimmed through evil upbringing and learning: let them enter in unto their own domestic Light, or unto the Light which is in their own house, unto the Truth which manifests accurately and clearly these things that have been written.



Justin Martyr, in his first apology, saith, "that the Word which was and is, is in all; even that very same Word which, through the prophets, foretold things to come."



The writer of the Call of all Nations, saith (lib. i, cap. 2), "We believe according to the same (viz. Scripture), and most religiously confess, that God was never wanting in care to the generality of men; who although he did lead by particular lessons, a people gathered to himself unto godliness, yet he withdrew from no nation of men the gifts of his own goodness, that they might be convinced that they had received the words of the prophets, and legal commands in services and testimonies of the first principles." Cap. 7, he saith, "That he believes that the help of grace hath been wholly withdrawn from no man." Lib. 2, cap. l, "Because, albeit salvation is far from sinners, yet there is nothing void of the presence and virtue of his salvation." Cap. 2, "But seeing none of that people over whom was set both the doctrines, were justified but through Grace by the Spirit of faith, who can question, but that they, who of whatsoever nation, in whatsoever times, could please God, were ordered by the Spirit of the Grace of God: which albeit in fore-time it was more sparing and hid, yet denied itself to no ages, being in virtue one, in quantity different, in counsel unchangeable, in operation multifarious."


Clement of Alexandria saith (Apol. ii., Strom. lib. i.), that "this wisdom or philosophy was necessary to the Gentiles, and was their schoolmaster to lead them unto Christ, by which of old the Greeks were justified."



"Nor do I think," saith Augustine, in his book of the City of God, lib. 18, cap. 47, "that the Jews dare affirm that none belonged unto God but the Israelites." Upon which place Ludovicus Vives saith, that "thus the Gentiles, not having a law, were a law unto themselves; and the light of so living is the gift of God, and proceeds from the Son; of whom it is written that he enlighteneth every man that cometh into the world."

Augustine also testifies in his Confessions (lib. 7, cap. 9), that "he had read in the writings of the Platonists, though not in the very same words, yet that which by many and multiplied reasons did persuade, that 'in the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, this was in the beginning with God, by which all things were made, and without which nothing was made that was made: in him was Life, and the Life was the Light of men: and the Light shined in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it. And, albeit the soul gives testimony concerning the Light, yet it is not the Light, but the Word of God; for God is the true Light, which enlighteneth every man that cometh into the world'"; and so repeats to verse 14 of John 1, adding, "These things have I there read."

Yea, there is a book translated out of the Arabic, which gives an account of one Hai Eben Yokdan, who, without converse of man, living in an island alone, attained to such a profound knowledge of God, as to have immediate converse with him, and to affirm, "That the best and most certain knowledge of God, is not that which is attained by premises premised, and conclusions deduced, but that which is enjoyed by conjunction of the mind of man with the supreme intellect, after the mind is purified from its corruptions, and is separated from all bodily images, and is gathered into a profound

Seeing then it is by this inward Gift, Grace, and Light, that both those, that have the Gospel preached unto them, come to have Jesus brought forth in them, and to have the saving and sanctified use of all outward helps and advantages; and also by this same Light, that all may come to be saved; and that God calls, invites, and strives with all, in a day, and saveth many, to whom he hath not seen meet to convey this outward knowledge; therefore we, having the experience of the inward and powerful work of this Light in our hearts, even Jesus revealed in us, cannot cease to proclaim the day of the Lord, that it is arisen in it, crying out with the woman of Samaria; "Come and see one, that hath told me all that ever I have done: Is not this the Christ?" That others may come and feel the same in themselves, and may know, that little small thing that reproves them in their hearts, however they have despised it and neglected it, is nothing less than the Gospel preached in them; "Christ, the wisdom and power of God," being in and by that Seed seeking to save their souls.

Of this Light therefore Augustine speaks in his Confessions (lib. 11, cap. 9): "In this beginning, O God! thou madest the heavens and the earth, in thy Word, in thy Son, in thy virtue, in thy wisdom, wonderfully saying, and wonderfully doing. Who shall comprehend it? Who shall declare it? What is that which shineth in unto me, and smites my heart without hurt, at which I both tremble, and am inflamed? I tremble, in so far as I am unlike unto it; and I am inflamed in so far as I am like unto it? It is Wisdom, which shineth in unto me and dispelleth my cloud, which had again covered me, after I was departed from that darkness and 11 of my punishments." And again he saith (lib. x., cap. 27), "It is too late that I have loved thee, O thou beautifulness, so ancient, and so new, late have I loved thee, and behold thou wast within, and I was without, and there was seeking thee! thou didst call, thou didst cry, thou didst break my deafness, thou glancedst, thou didst shine, thou chasedst away my darkness."

Of this also our countryman, George Buchanan, speaketh thus in his book, De Jure Regni apud Scotos: "Truly I understand no other thing at present, than that Light, which is divinely infused into our souls; for when God formed man, he not only gave him eyes to his body, by which he might shun those things that are hurtful to him, and follow those things that are profitable. But also hath set before his mind, as it were, a certain Light, by which he may discern things that are vile from things that are honest. Some call this power nature, others the law of nature; I truly judge it to be divine, and am persuaded that nature and wisdom never say different things. Moreover God hath given us a compend of the law, which in few words comprehends the whole: to wit, that we should love him from our hearts, and our neighbours as ourselves. And of this law all the books of the Holy Scriptures, which pertain to the forming of manners, contain no other but an explication."

This is that universal, evangelical principle in and by which this salvation of Christ is exhibited to all men, both Jew and Gentile, Scythian and Barbarian, of whatsoever country or kindred he be. And therefore God hath raised up unto himself, in this our age, faithful witnesses and evangelists to preach again his everlasting Gospel, and to direct all, as well the high professors, who boast of the Law, and the Scriptures, and the outward knowledge of Christ, as the infidels and heathens that know not him that way, that they may all come to mind the Light in them, and know Christ in them, "the Just One, whom they have so long killed and made merry over, and he hath not resisted" (James 5:6), and give up their sins, iniquities, false faith, professions, and outside righteousness, to be crucified by the power of his cross in them, so as they may know Christ within to be the "hope of glory," and may come to walk in his Light and be saved, who is that "true Light that enlighteneth every man that cometh into the world."
 
Upvote 0

Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
Site Supporter
Jul 22, 2014
41,511
7,861
...
✟1,195,112.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
I believe the Bible teaches that all three persons of the Godhead or the Trinity can dwell within the believer:

The Father dwells within the believer:

“whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him and he in God” (1 John 4:15-16).
“one God and Father of all, who is above all... and in you all” (Ephesians 4:6).

"Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him." (John 14:23).​

The Son dwells within the believer:

"Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?" (2 Corinthians 13:5).

"I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing." (John 15:5).

"Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him." (John 14:23).

"He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life." (1 John 5:12).

"but Christ liveth in me:" (Galatians 2:20).

"Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me." (Revelation 3:20).

"To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:" (Colossians 1:27).​

The Holy Spirit dwells within the believer:

“if we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit” (Galatians 5:25).
“know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost, which is in you . . . and ye are not your own?” (1 Corinthians 6:19).
"And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us." (Romans 5:5).​
 
  • Agree
Reactions: LoveofTruth
Upvote 0

Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
Site Supporter
Jul 22, 2014
41,511
7,861
...
✟1,195,112.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
I believe the Bible teaches that Jesus indwelled OT saints.

"And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ."
(1 Corinthians 10:4).

For there is no other name under heaven whereby men can be saved (See: Acts of the Apostles 4:12).

I believe that OT saints were born again spiritually. However, in the OT, it was called "circumcision of the heart," instead.

Old Testament saints were born again.
 
Upvote 0

LoveofTruth

Christ builds His church from within us
Jun 29, 2015
6,385
1,750
✟167,289.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
I believe the Bible teaches that Jesus indwelled OT saints.

"And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ."
(1 Corinthians 10:4).

For there is no other name under heaven whereby men can be saved (See: Acts of the Apostles 4:12).

I believe that OT saints were born again spiritually. However, in the OT, it was called "circumcision of the heart," instead.

Old Testament saints were born again.
I just saw an interesting connection

In 1 Cor 10 there we read that the Old Testament saints did “drink” this May be similar to when Jesus said

“ John 4:14. But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst;...”

This is an interesting verse also and may have a spiritual connection to Jesus born in Bethlehem (the house of bread)

2 Samuel 23 - 15. And David longed, and said, Oh that one would give me drink of the water of the well of Bethlehem, which is by the gate!”
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

LoveofTruth

Christ builds His church from within us
Jun 29, 2015
6,385
1,750
✟167,289.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
I believe the Bible teaches that all three persons of the Godhead or the Trinity can dwell within the believer:

The Father dwells within the believer:

“whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him and he in God” (1 John 4:15-16).
“one God and Father of all, who is above all... and in you all” (Ephesians 4:6).

"Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him." (John 14:23).​

The Son dwells within the believer:

"Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?" (2 Corinthians 13:5).

"I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing." (John 15:5).

"Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him." (John 14:23).

"He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life." (1 John 5:12).

"but Christ liveth in me:" (Galatians 2:20).

"Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me." (Revelation 3:20).

"To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:" (Colossians 1:27).​

The Holy Spirit dwells within the believer:

“if we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit” (Galatians 5:25).
“know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost, which is in you . . . and ye are not your own?” (1 Corinthians 6:19).
"And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us." (Romans 5:5).​
Very good post here Jason

God bless
 
Upvote 0

LoveofTruth

Christ builds His church from within us
Jun 29, 2015
6,385
1,750
✟167,289.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
I believe the Bible teaches that Jesus indwelled OT saints.

"And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ."
(1 Corinthians 10:4).

For there is no other name under heaven whereby men can be saved (See: Acts of the Apostles 4:12).

I believe that OT saints were born again spiritually. However, in the OT, it was called "circumcision of the heart," instead.

Old Testament saints were born again.
Glad you see this Jason

Many don’t
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
Site Supporter
Jul 22, 2014
41,511
7,861
...
✟1,195,112.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
I just saw an interesting connection

In 1 Cor 10 there we read that the Old Testament saints did “drink” this May be similar to when Jesus said

“ John 4:14. But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst;...”

This is an interesting verse also and may have a spiritual connection to Jesus born in Bethlehem (the house of bread)

2 Samuel 23 - 15. And David longed, and said, Oh that one would give me drink of the water of the well of Bethlehem, which is by the gate!”

Thank you for sharing that passage, brother.

Yes, I see the gate (door) as Jesus, and the water of the well of Bethlehem as the Holy Ghost.

John 4:14 says,

"...the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life."​

John 7:37-39 says,

37 "In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.
38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)"​

This relates. I have come to learn recently what Jesus was writing in the ground when the Jews tested him in regards to the woman caught in the act of adultery. In learning this, we also see a reference to the LORD [Jesus], the fountain of living waters [the Holy Spirit].

Jeremiah 17:13 says,

"O LORD, the hope of Israel, all that forsake thee shall be ashamed, and they that depart from me shall be written in the earth, because they have forsaken the LORD [i.e. Jesus], the fountain of living waters [i.e. the Holy Ghost]."​

Note 1: The words in brackets in light blue (above) is my commentary to the text.

Note 2: Words in bright red are references to the Holy Spirit. Words in green is in reference to the Tree of Life, the door (wood, tree), who is Jesus.

Note 3: In the words in the above verse, you will notice that they (the Jews) that were accusing Jesus in regards to the woman caught in the act of adultery, their names were written down in the earth. This is what Jesus was writing in the Earth. Jesus was writing down the names of those who had forsaken the Lord. I highlighted the words in purple above in Jeremiah to show that their names written in the earth as we behold in the scene in John 8.

Note 4: We tie this together because of the words, "the LORD, the fountain of living waters" in Jeremiah 17:13 is tied to John 7:38 that says, "out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water."

Again, John 7:38 says,

"He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water."​

Here is the scene with Jesus writing in the ground with the Jews in regards to the woman caught in the act of adultery:

John 8:4-6 says,

4 "They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.
5 Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?
6 This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not. "​

What is interesting is that the very previous chapter (John 7), we are told that anyone who believes in Jesus out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. Yet, in Jeremiah 17:13, we learn that this fountain of living waters is what these Jews rejected and their names were written in the ground because they forsaken the Lord.

Anyways, we may not see eye to eye on everything, brother;
But I do count you as a brother by your love and understanding on some very important issues in regards to God's Word.

May God bless you, Love of Truth.

*Gives you a big hug in the Lord*

May you always be strong in the power of the Lord and His might (According to His Word).
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

LoveofTruth

Christ builds His church from within us
Jun 29, 2015
6,385
1,750
✟167,289.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Thank you for sharing that passage, brother.

Yes, I see the gate (door) as Jesus, and the water of the well of Bethlehem as the Holy Ghost.

John 4:14 says,

"...the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life."​

John 7:37-39 says,

37 "In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.
38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)"​

This relates. I have come to learn recently what Jesus was writing in the ground when the Jews tested him in regards to the woman caught in the act of adultery. In learning this, we also see a reference to the LORD [Jesus], the fountain of living waters [the Holy Spirit].

Jeremiah 17:13 says,

"O LORD, the hope of Israel, all that forsake thee shall be ashamed, and they that depart from me shall be written in the earth, because they have forsaken the LORD [i.e. Jesus], the fountain of living waters [i.e. the Holy Ghost]."​

Note 1: The words in brackets in light blue (above) is my commentary to the text.

Note 2: Words in bright red are references to the Holy Spirit. Words in green is in reference to the Tree of Life, the door (wood, tree), who is Jesus.

Note 3: In the words in the above verse, you will notice that they (the Jews) that were accusing Jesus in regards to the woman caught in the act of adultery, their names were written down in the earth. This is what Jesus was writing in the Earth. Jesus was writing down the names of those who had forsaken the Lord. I highlighted the words in purple above in Jeremiah to show that their names written in the earth as we behold in the scene in John 8.

Note 4: We tie this together because of the words, "the LORD, the fountain of living waters" in Jeremiah 17:13 is tied to John 7:38 that says, "out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water."

Again, John 7:38 says,

"He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water."​

Here is the scene with Jesus writing in the ground with the Jews in regards to the woman caught in the act of adultery:

John 8:4-6 says,

4 "They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.
5 Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?
6 This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not. "​

What is interesting is that the very previous chapter (John 7), we are told that anyone who believes in Jesus out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. Yet, in Jeremiah 17:13, we learn that this fountain of living waters is what these Jews rejected and their names were written in the ground because they forsaken the Lord.

Anyways, we may not see eye to eye on everything, brother;
But I do count you as a brother by your love and understanding on some very important issues in regards to God's Word.

May God bless you, Love of Truth.

*Gives you a big hug in the Lord*

May you always be strong in the power of the Lord and His might (According to His Word).
Interesting

God bless
 
Upvote 0

swordsman1

Well-Known Member
May 3, 2015
3,940
1,064
✟252,647.00
Faith
Christian
And what do you mean when you say Abraham's spiritual offspring? God alone gives life and all believers are "his offspring" Your confusion here is being magnified more and more.

Acts 17:28
For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring., "

Abraham's seed means his spiritual offspring or descendents. All believers are spiritual descendents of Abraham.

Strong's Concordance
sperma: that which is sown, i.e. seed
Original Word: σπέρμα, ατος, τό
Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter
Transliteration: sperma
Phonetic Spelling: (sper'-mah)
Definition: that which is sown, seed
Usage: (a) seed, commonly of cereals, (b) offspring, descendents.

The word you selected in Acts 17:28 is not the same word. The Greek word there is genos not sperma.

All OT saints had faith, read Hebrews 11 and see that they had the substance of things hoped for the evidence of things unseen. They had Christ in them the hope of glory.

No, the OT saints did not have Christ "in" them. You have provided no proof of that.


through faith....16 Now to Abraham and his seed [his seed refers to Christ in Abraham]

were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one [this is reinforced here to show that Paul is not speaking of the physical seed of Abraham, or even others that he himself brings forth but one seed which is Christ in Him, this seed is the word of God sown "his seed" simply means he belonged to Christ and Christ was in Him Jesus said in John 15 I in you and you in me],

No, you are wrong. The seed is not Christ himself, nor was the seed in Christ. It says the promises were made to Abraham and his seed (spiritual descendents).

Gal 3:16 "Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed."

If the seed is Christ then the promises were made to Abraham and Christ. Why would God make such Abrahamic promises as "I will be your God" to Christ? That doesn't make sense. Nor would it make sense in Gal 3:29:

Gal 3:29 "And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed,"

If Abraham’s seed is Christ that would be saying that we are Christ. That is patently wrong. No, it only makes sense if the promises were made to Abraham and his spiritual offspring (us believers). This is made clear just a few verses earlier:

Gal 3:7 Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham.


And to thy seed, which is Christ [Paul clearly says here that Abrahams seed and our seed is Christ. This shows that Paul is not speaking of the Holy Ghost promise in the baptism with the Holy Ghost in Abraham's day, for this had not yet happened].

This is obviously where you are getting confused. When it says Abraham's seed is Christ, he is not saying Abraham's seed is literally the person of Christ himself (or his Spirit). Abraham's spiritual descendents are obviously not Christ. The reference to Christ here is in the mystical sense whereby Christ is representative of his Church, him being the head of the body. You probably won't accept what I say about this so I will again leave it to the majority consensus of commentators to explain this in detail to you.


John Gill

and to thy seed, which is Christ; meaning not Christ personal, though he was of the seed of Abraham, a son of his, as was promised; but the covenant and the promises were not now made with, and to Christ, as personally considered, this was done in eternity; but Christ mystical, the church, which is the body of Christ, of which he is the head, and is called by his name, 1 Corinthians 12:12 and designs all Abraham's spiritual seed, both Jews and Gentiles; who are all one in Christ, and so Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise; hence there is no room for the objection of the Jew to the apostle's application of this passage to ChristF3, that the Scripture speaks not of any particular person, but of seed in a general and collective sense, of a large and numerous offspring; since the apostle designs such a seed by Christ, as numerous as the stars of the sky, and the sand on the sea shore, even all believers in all nations, Abraham is the father of; though did the apostle mean Christ particularly, and personally considered, there are instances to be given, where the word "seed" is used, not in a collective sense, but of a single person, as in Genesis 4:25. Nor has the JewF4 any reason to charge him with a mistake, in observing that the word is not in the plural, but in the singular number, when it is the manner of the Hebrew language to speak of seed only in the singular number; but this is false, the word is used in the plural number, and so might have been here, had it been necessary, as in 1 Samuel 8:15 concerning seed sown in the earth, from whence the metaphor is here taken. The first tract in the Jews' Misna, or oral law, is called, זרעים, "seeds"; and the word, even as spoken of the posterity of men, is used in the plural number in their TalmudF5; where they say,


Adam Clarke

Now to Abraham and his seed - The promise of salvation by faith was made to Abraham and his posterity.

He saith not, And to seeds - It was one particular kind of posterity which was intended: but as of one - which is Christ; i.e. to the spiritual head, and all believers in him, who are children of Abraham, because they are believers, Galatians 3:7. But why does the apostle say, not of seeds, as of many? To this it is answered, that Abraham possessed in his family two seeds, one natural, viz. the members of his own household; and the other spiritual, those who were like himself because of their faith. The promises were not of a temporal nature; had they been so, they would have belonged to his natural seed; but they did not, therefore they must have belonged to the spiritual posterity. And as we know that promises of justification, etc., could not properly be made to Christ in himself, hence we must conclude his members to be here intended, and the word Christ is put here for Christians. It is from Christ that the grace flows which constitutes Christians. Christians are those who believe after the example of Abraham; they therefore are the spiritual seed. Christ, working in and by these, makes them the light and salt of the world; and through them, under and by Christ, are all the nations of the earth blessed. This appears to be the most consistent interpretation, though every thing must be understood of Christ in the first instance, and then of Christians only through him.


James Coffman

Now to Abraham were the promises spoken, and to his seed. He saith not, And to seeds as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed which is Christ.
"There is in this verse a sense of the corporate meaning of Christ, as in 1 Corinthians 12:12,[18] where is mentioned "the body of Christ" inclusively of all the redeemed. Christ is again called the "seed singular" in Galatians 3:19. This is the verse that tells "how" the Gentiles, and even the saints of the Old Testament, are saved. They are saved "in Christ," there being this correspondence between the manner of their salvation and our own, namely, that both for them and for us, the basis of it was "the obedience of faith," notwithstanding the tests for them were not the same as the test which those under the New Covenant must meet. For us, the manner of our being "in Christ" is dogmatically declared to be the baptism of believers "into Christ," as Paul would forcefully show a moment later (Galatians 3:27).

Charles Ellicott

And to seeds, as of many; but as of one.—The argument of the Apostle turns upon the use, both in the Hebrew and in the LXX., of a singular instead of a plural noun. Both in the Hebrew and in the LXX., however, the noun, though singular, is collective. It meant, in the first instance at least, not any one individual, but the posterity of Abraham as a whole. The Apostle refers it to Christ and the “spiritual Israel” (i.e., the Church, of which He is the Head), on the same principle on which, throughout the New Testament, the history of the chosen people under the old covenant is taken as a type of the Christian dispensation. We may compare Matthew 2:15, where an allusion to the exodus of Israel from Egypt is treated as a type of the return of the Holy Family from their flight into Egypt. Such passages are not to be regarded as arguments possessing a permanent logical validity (which would be to apply the rigid canons of Western logic to a case for which they are unsuitable), but rather as marked illustrations of the organic unity which the apostolic writers recognised in the pre-Christian and Christian dispensations. Not only had both the same Author, and formed part of the same scheme, but they were actually the counterparts one of the other. The events which characterised the earlier dispensation had their analogies—sometimes spiritual, sometimes literal—in the later.


Expositor's Greek Testament

In like manner Christ is contemplated, not by Himself alone as constituting in the unity of His person the chosen seed, but as a new centre out of whom the family of God branched forth afresh. He became in a far higher sense than Isaac or Jacob a new head of the chosen family: for all Abraham’s children after the flesh that received Him not were shut out from the blessing, while all who believed in Him became by faith sons of Abraham and members of the true family of God. The whole Church of Christ are in short regarded as one with Christ—one in life and spirit, for they are members of His body and partake of His spirit (cf. Galatians 3:28-29).


Henry Mahan

Galatians 3:16. These promises of acceptance, justification and eternal life were made not to Christ personally, not to all the natural seed of Abraham, but to Christ's body, the church, the spiritual seed of Abraham, both Jew and Gentiles. The promises are made to all believers, who are one in Christ!


Geneva Study Bible

Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, 18 which is l Christ.
(18) He puts forth the sum of the seventh argument, that is, that both the Jews and the Gentiles grow together in one body of the seed of Abraham, in Christ alone, so that all are one in Christ, as it is afterward declared in (Galatians 3:28).
(l) Paul does not speak of Christ's person, but of two peoples, who grew together in one, in Christ.


Henry Alford

We are now in a position to interpret the words ὅς ἐστιν χριστός. Meyer says ‘ χριστός is the personal Christ Jesus, not, as has been held (after Aug.), Christ and His Church.’ This remark is true, and untrue. χρ. certainly does not mean ‘Christ and His Church:’ but if it imports only the personal Christ Jesus, why is it not so expressed, χριστὸς ἰησοῦς? For the word does not here occur in passing, but is the predicate of a very definite and important proposition. The fact is, that we must place ourselves in St. Paul’s position with regard to the idea of Christ, before we can appreciate all he meant by this word here. Christians are, not by a figure, but really, the BODY OF CHRIST: Christ contains His people, and the mention even of the personal Christ would bring with it, in the Apostle’s mind, the inclusion of His believing people. This seed is, CHRIST: not merely in the narrower sense, the man Christ Jesus, but Christ the Seed, Christ the Second Adam, Christ the Head of the Body. And that this is so, is plain from Galatians 3:28-29, which are the key to ὅς ἐστιν χριστός: where he says, πάντες γὰρ ὑμεῖς εἷσ ἐστε ἐν χριστῷ ἰησοῦ (notice ἰησοῦ here carefully inserted, where the Person is indicated). εἰ δὲ ὑμεῖς χριστοῦ, ἄρα τοῦ ἀβραὰμ σπεʹ ρ΄α ἐστεʹ, κατʼ ἐπαγγελίαν κληρονόμοι. So that while it is necessary for the form of the argument here, to express Him to whom the promises were made, and not the aggregate of his people, afterwards to be identified with Him (but not here in view), yet the Apostle has introduced His name in a form not circumscribing His Personality, but leaving room for the inclusion of His mystical Body.


Jamieson, Fausset & Brown

one … Christ — not in the exclusive sense, the man Christ Jesus, but “Christ” (Jesus is not added, which would limit the meaning), including His people who are part of Himself, the Second Adam, and Head of redeemed humanity. Galatians 3:28, Galatians 3:29 prove this, “Ye are all ONE in Christ Jesus” (Jesus is added here as the person is indicated). “And if ye be Christ‘s, ye are Abraham‘s SEED, heirs according to the promise.”


John Trapp

Ver. 16. Which is Christ] Mystical Christ, that is, whole Christ; for he accounts not himself complete without his members, who are therefore called his fulness, Ephesians 1:23. Caput et corpus, unus est Christus, saith Augustine, the head and members make but one Christ.


A.T. Robertson

Which is Christ (ος εστιν Χριστος — hos estin Christos). Masculine relative agreeing with Χριστος — Christos though σπερμα — sperma is neuter. But the promise to Abraham uses σπερμα — sperma as a collective substantive and applies to all believers (both Jews and Gentiles) as Paul has shown in Galatians 3:7-14, and as of course he knew full well here Paul uses a rabbinical refinement which is yet intelligible. The people of Israel were a type of the Messiah and he gathers up the promise in its special application to Christ. He does not say that Christ is specifically referred to in Genesis 13:15 or Genesis 17:7.


Peter Pett

Which is Christ, i.e., Christ, not as a single individual, but as the head of the church, which is ‘His body, the fulness of Him who filleth all in all’ (Ephesians 1:23). In Him the whole spiritual race of Abraham is summed up, and in Him it fulfilled its mission to the whole world. He is the representative and embodiment of all true Israelites, and without Him the Jewish people has no meaning. The seed includes, therefore, all true believers who are vitally united to Christ. The key to the passage is in Galatians 3:28-29 : ‘Ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, heirs according to the promise.’ Comp. 1 Corinthians 12:12 : ‘As the body is one and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.’


Joseph S Exell,

With grammatical and logical accuracy, the apostle proves the point he is arguing. He shows that the true explanation of the singular number being used where the plural might have been expected, is to be found in the fact that God was speaking of one collective seed according to the spirit. The Inheritor of the promise made to Abraham was Christ: not Christ as an individual merely, but Christ the anointed Head and Representative of His people--Christ the Elder Brother in a united family-Christ and all who are incorporated with Him in that spiritual Body which includes Abraham and all the faithful of every age and race. “For ye are all one man in Christ Jesus. And if ye are Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, heirs according to promise.” Having made it clear that the gospel of Jesus Christ, believed and received, puts men in possession of the inheritance promised to Abraham, St, Paul goes on (in verse 17) to deal with the question that naturally rises to the mind: “What relation, then, does the law of Moses bear to the promise made to Abraham?”


Vincent's Word Studies

He means that there is significance in the singular form of expression, as pointing to the fact that one descendant (seed) is intended - Christ. With regard to this line of argument it is to be said, 1. The original promise referred to the posterity of Abraham generally, and therefore applies to Christ individually only as representing these: as gathering up into one all who should be incorporated with him. 2. The original word for seed in the O.T., wherever it means progeny, is used in the singular, whether the progeny consists of one or many. In the plural it means grains of seed, as 1 Samuel 8:15.


William Burkitt

not only to Abraham, but to his seed, were the promises made: not to seeds, as of many; but as of one, and to thy seed, which is Christ; where, by one, we understand one mystically, and in the aggregate; not only personally and individually: And by Christ, the whole church, consisting of head members, believing Gentiles, as well as Jews.
 
Upvote 0

swordsman1

Well-Known Member
May 3, 2015
3,940
1,064
✟252,647.00
Faith
Christian
cont...

Joseph Beet

Which seed, looked upon as one organic whole, is Christ: a concisely expressed deduction from Galatians 3:14 a.

Is; denotes coincidence or practical identity, as in 2 Corinthians 3:17; 1 Corinthians 10:16, ( 1 Corinthians 12:12,) Romans 2:12; Romans 2:16. The promise to Abraham’s seed is fulfilled, by God’s design, in those united to Christ, in them only, and in virtue of their union with Him. The personality of Christ enfolds them: (for they have put on Christ, Galatians 3:27 :) and His relationships and rights are theirs. Thus the personality of Christ is in some sense co-extensive with the fulfilment of the promise to Abraham. And, since this was originally designed by God, and since the fulfilment of the promises to Abraham will set up the kingdom of Christ, Paul does not hesitate to say in Galatians 3:19 that He was the seed to whom the promise was made, and to say here that the seed is Christ. The profound truth thus expressed, viz. the practical identity of Christ and His people, has many applications and is worthy of careful study. The expression itself was suggested by the form, conspicuous by its uniformity, of the promises to Abraham’s descendants.


John Dummelow

16. Thy seed, which is Christ] St. Paul here argues from the fact that the singular number is used—'seed,' not 'seeds'; but the verbal reasoning does not affect the argument. The word is collective. He regards Christ as including all who are united to Him by faith, who are the true seed of Abraham.


Pulpit Commentary

"And he saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ." The seed was not the Jewish race, nor strictly the spiritual posterity of Abraham, but Christ himself, in whom the Jewish race found its embodiment and to whom the spiritual posterity was organically united. There is a distinction between Christ personal and Christ mystical, regarded as the second Adam, as the Head of the body. Thus we understand how the whole body of believers is expressly called "Christ" (1 Corinthians 12:12). They are "all one in Christ," and "if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed' (Galatians 5:1-26 :28, 29).


De-Witt-Burton

"He saith not, And to the seeds, as of many, but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ." ... If these words are from the apostle it must be supposed that for the purpose of heightening the impression of the dignity and inviolability of the covenant and suggesting the impossibility of its having already received its fulfilment before the law came in, he avails himself of an unusual use of ovrepva in the singular as meaning, or applied to, an individual descendant, and founds on this fact an argument for referring the 0. T. passage to Christ; yet probably to him not as an individual, but as the head of a spiritual race; cf. the use of Israel as meaning the race of Israel, Rom, 9: 6,31 but especially 9:28 and 1 Cor. 12:12. This is, of course, not the meaning of the original passage referred to (Gen. 13:15, or 17:7 or 8). But neither is there any other interpretation which will satisfy the requirements both of the Gen. passages and of the context here. The latter must, therefore, decide the apostle's meaning; cf. on v.11. It is not probable, indeed, that the apostle derived the meaning of the promise from the use of the singular aTrepy.a'n. He is well aware of the collective sense of the word wep^a in the Gen, passage (see v.29 and Rom. 4:12-18). He doubtless arrived at his thought, not by exegesis of scripture, but from an interpretation of history, and then availed himself of the singular noun to express his thought.
 
Upvote 0

swordsman1

Well-Known Member
May 3, 2015
3,940
1,064
✟252,647.00
Faith
Christian
We already saw how Paul speaks of Christ, and connects Christ with the word nigh unto them in the OT in Deuteronomy 30 and he shows clearly that Christ was there in mystery. Christ was not totally hidden from them if their hearts did not turn away and if they would hear the voice of God in them.

No, Paul does not connect Christ to Deut 30. Only you do that. And I have already explained your error in doing so.

I believe this parable is speaking of God sowing Christ the seed in the hearts of men shining in then as the true Light which lighteth EVERY man that cometh into the world (John 1:9). This seed is what gives life and how men are born again even before Christ came in the flesh. Christ always was and His work in the hearts of men has been going on in mystery since the beginning. This seed sown in the heart which is the word of God is the same seed of Abraham, Abel, and Noah, and Sarah, and Enoch and all way before any scripture was given. This seed, is Christ in all believers the hope of glory. This seed is the same seed in 1 John 3:9. The word "seed' is the same Greek word used in Galatians 3 when speaking of Abraham's seed.

Your understanding of the parable of the sower is perverse. Is there a single commentator who says that the seed sown is Christ, rather than God's word? No, of course not. Do I really need to quote another 20 commentaries? The confused disciples asked Jesus to explain the parable, and He did so:

"Now the parable is this: the seed is the word of God. Those beside the road are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their heart," (Luke 8:11)

If the seed was Jesus Himself he would have plainly said so in his explanation. He wouldn't explain his parable with another parable!

Quite clearly you are completely wrong yet again.


You error again here, the text sows how to be born again,. The expression "born again" is speaking of being born from above. The word of God is spirit and life. This is the seed, the word of God, Christ in them.

Again you are making an arbitrary and unwarranted assumption the 'word of God' in 1 Peter 1:23 is Christ. There is not the slightest hint of that in the text. Again is there a single commentator who shares your view? The word of God here is what it says it is - God's word. It is "the living and enduring word of God", as echoed in Heb 4:12 "For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword". (Please don't tell me you think Heb 4 is referring to Christ as well). All commentators agree that God's word, scripture, is the imperishable seed here. Do I have to quote another 20 commentaries to explain it to you?
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

swordsman1

Well-Known Member
May 3, 2015
3,940
1,064
✟252,647.00
Faith
Christian
No I’m speak the truth here Jesus was speaking to the 12 and what Jesus said would have applied to them THEN as he sent them out st that time. We see from Luke that there was success in those Jesus sent out at that time.

You just assume that they would not be dragged before the counsels and questioned at that time when Jesus sent then out Jesus says they would be meeting with opposition.

These words of Jesus also apply to them later and whenever they or anyone is sent out and after his death as well and I believe for all believers to come as I can show with other scriptures as well.

Also consider that Jesus said they would be persecuted in thier ministry to Isreal here,

Matthew 10: 14. And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet. 15. Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city. 16. Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. 17. But beware of men: for they will deliver you up to the councils, and they will scourge you in their synagogues;”

Matthew 10:23, 34 “But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come. 24. The disciple is not above his master, nor the servant above his lord.”

You are wrong again as most all your understanding is in this matter.

You seriously think that when the twelve were sent out on their initial two-by-two expedition they were dragged before multiple courts and brought before multiple kings? (those words are plural). I suppose you also think that family members were betraying each other and putting each other to death during that first journey? All in the space of a few days? And not a word was recorded about these momentous events in scripture? No, that is silly. Clearly a lot of this passage is referring only to future endeavours, not their immediate one.
 
Upvote 0

swordsman1

Well-Known Member
May 3, 2015
3,940
1,064
✟252,647.00
Faith
Christian
But as far as the verses in Ephesians consider,

"11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow. 12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into."(Ephesians 3:11,12 KJV)

Before we get to Ephesians 3:16,17 we see here in vs's 11 and 12 of Ephesians 3, that the Spirit of Christ was in them in the OT and testified of the sufferings of Christ before they happened. This would seem to be Christ in them speaking and revealing things to them. If we say that the Spirit of Christ here is the Holy Ghost, then the ministry of the Holy Ghost through Christ was working in accordance with Christ but still distinct. We read of verses that speak of all three in such wording as this where God is speaking of the Lord God and His Spirit sending Him,

You are so wrong yet again. Firstly Eph 3:11-12 says nothing of the sort. The passage you quoted is not from Ephesians 3 it is from 1 Peter 1:11-12. And it was not referring to OT believers in general but to the OT prophets who spoke by the Spirit of Christ. 1 Peter 1:10 "the prophets who prophesied....". This verse was one of my proofs that the Spirit of Christ is the Holy Spirit remember? The OT prophets spoke under the influence of the Holy Spirit.

2 Peter 1:21 "for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God."


Now look at Ephesians 3 a few verses down from 11 and 12 and consider the text again,

16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man; 17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,"(Ephesians 4:16,17 KJV)

Here we see the work of the Holy Ghost to strengthen with might, we receive power after that the Holy Ghost is come upon us. This strengthening is to enable us and to be witnesses. But in the very next verse we read "that Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith". Here again we see two distinct persons one "His Spirit" the other "Christ". That is how it appears to me in the sections from vs's 11,12,16,17. As I shared before I believe the Holy Ghost immerses us into the body of Christ and Jesus baptizes us with the Holy Ghost (1 Cor 12:13 and Matthew 3:11 KJV). We drink in the water of life. This is what we have from Jesus Christ in us, and we are empowered by the Holy Ghost where the water bubbles up from within us. This is a distinct work than drinking of the water. If i show you a pool of water and it is still and then a bubbling fountain coming from that water. There is a distinction in the effect and difference.

It's not a few verses down, it is in a completely different book.

They are not 2 separate sentences, they are clauses linked with a "so that":

Eph 3:16-17 "that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with power through His Spirit in the inner man, so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith;"

The whole reason we can say Christ dwells in our hearts is because His Spirit is in our inner man. The indwelling Holy Spirit is "Christ in us". It is as clear as day to the unbiased eye.


9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you."(Romans 8:9-11 KJV)

Here we see all the work of the Trinity I believe. We read of different words used the Spirit of God and then the Spirit of Christ and Christ in you, and then the Spirit ( Holy Ghost) that raised up Christ from the dead. If the Spirit here is referred to the Holy Ghost then we must conclude that this is not talking about Christ that was raised from the dead. Paul distinguished the Spirit from Christ here. Christ came in the flesh, and died on the cross This is Jesus Christ. And Jesus Christ is in every believer. Yes the Father is also in every believer and the Holy Ghost. But the distinction is there never the less. And each has a specific work.

No, the commentators are unanimous in their explanation of Rom 8:9-11 as I have shown. The Spirit of God dwelling in you, having the Spirit of Christ, and "Christ in you" are all synonymous terms. To help you understand I suggest you go back and read the 20+ commentaries I posted earlier.
 
Upvote 0

swordsman1

Well-Known Member
May 3, 2015
3,940
1,064
✟252,647.00
Faith
Christian
"5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?"(2 Corinthians 13:5 KJV)

Do you say that Paul is referring to the "Holy Ghost" or is it "Jesus Christ" the Son of God?

Paul is referring to the Holy Spirit ("Christ in you"). He is talking about examining ourselves and asking us how we know that Christ is in us. The answer of course is found in:

Romans 8:16 "The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God,"


"2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: 3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist,..."(1 John 4:2,3 KJV)

Who came in the flesh? can you say that Christ "person" here is the Holy Ghost "person" of the Godhead?

It is Christ, the 2nd person of the Trinity, who came in the flesh.

Do you believe that Christ was existant before he came to the earth and before he came in the flesh? if so who was he? And was he Spirit?

He was still the 2nd person of the Trinity. Not the Holy Spirit.

We read that Christ is in believers, this is identified as Jesus Christ.

No, "Christ in us" is the Spirit of Christ, the indwelling Holy Spirit. Not the 2nd person of the Trinity.

Do you see Jesus Christ as the person of the Holy Ghost? or the person of the Son of God?

Christ is the 2nd person of the Trinity. He is not the Holy Spirit.
 
Upvote 0

swordsman1

Well-Known Member
May 3, 2015
3,940
1,064
✟252,647.00
Faith
Christian
And as i showed we read of the Spirit of the father speaking, the Spirit of the Son and the Holy Ghost. we see all three are distinct and yet one God

No, there are not 3 distinct Spirits. That is heresy. There is ONE Spirit, the Holy Spirit - also know as the Spirit of Christ and the Spirit of the Father.

2 Corinthians 13:14
The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen"


Do you say the person of Holy Ghost is the person of Lord Jesus Christ in this verse?

No.

Your theology does not sound orthadox (so called), but is seems more leaning towards the Onness heresy to me.

And your theology, with your 3 Spirits idea, appears to be leaning toward Tritheism.

This is your confused stuff here and again it sounds more like Onenes heresy leaning to me.

My "confused stuff" is mainstream Christian theology, unlike your "unorthodox stuff".

Believe me I am the polar opposite of Oneness Pentecostalism.

Galatians 6:18
Brethren, the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit. Amen."


This is identified as the Lord Jesus Christ in them Jesus Christ here is in Spirit in our hearts and so the Spirit of Christ in us. Do you say this Lord Jesus Christ is the person of the Holy Ghost in this instance?

You have misread the verse. It doesn't say Christ will be with you. It says the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit.

The seed sown in Abraham and all believers through faith, is Christ.

No the seed sown in believers hearts is God's word.

But just what the father is and the Son and the Holy Ghost, we say they are Spirit.As I showed you the Spirit of the father and His person is distinct from the Spirit of His Son and His person and the Holy Ghost and His person.

No, God is not Spirit, and certainly not Spirits. The word is spirit (lower case, singular).

John 4:24 "God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”"

This is not a reference to the Spirit of Christ or the Holy Spirit. It is saying God is immaterial.


I also see the Spirit of Christ and "Christ" and "Jesus Christ " the same way.

You have an errant view of Christ. There is ample scripture evidence, as I have shown, that the Spirit of Christ is the Holy Spirit, not a seperate Spirit and certainly not Christ the 2nd Person.

So we say the Spirit of Christ. If any man have not the Spirit of Christ he is none of his. This must also refer to all OT saints some of whom we see in Hebrews 11. These were all said to have faith and Christ dwells in the heart by faith. Abraham had the seed Christ in him as well. (Gal 3).

No, the Spirit of Christ, the Holy Spirit did not dwell inside OT believers. Christ dwelling in the heart by faith only applies to New Testament believers who have the Holy Spirit indwelling them as the rest of Eph 3:16-17 makes clear.

Gal 3 does not say Abraham had his seed inside himself.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

swordsman1

Well-Known Member
May 3, 2015
3,940
1,064
✟252,647.00
Faith
Christian
Galatians 6:18
Brethren, the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit. Amen."

This is identified as the Lord Jesus Christ in them Jesus Christ here is in Spirit in our hearts and so "the Spirit of Christ" in us. Do you say this Lord Jesus Christ is the person of the Holy Ghost in this instance?

The claim you originally made was: ""Christ" is the Spirit of Christ" and one in the same as scripture shows". I asked what scripture shows that?

That verse doesn't say Christ the Person is the Spirit of Christ as you claimed. It says may his grace be with your spirit.


or how about this one,

2 Corinthians 13:5
Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?"

That verse doesn't say Christ the Person is the Spirit of Christ. "Christ in us" is the Spirit of Christ (the Holy Spirit), not the 2nd Person, as scriptures and commentaries I have quoted makes clear.

"16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.
17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;


19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation."(2 Cor 5:16-19 KJV)


Christ came in the flesh and died on the cross. He came down from above and was always existant.We read that God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself. The Father did not die on the cross or the Holy Ghost.

That verse doesn't say Christ the Person is the Spirit of Christ.

Also, before Jesus Christ came in the flesh he was in heaven and since God was in Christ and God is a Spirit then Christ is Spirit as well, before he came in the flesh.

God is spirit, and the pre-incarnate Christ is spirit. But he is not The Spirit, the Spirit of Christ.

What was Christ before he came to earth if not Spirit and what is Christ in believers if not the Spirit of Christ.

"Christ in believers" is indeed the Spirit of Christ. But the Spirit of Christ is not the 2nd Person of the Trinity. The Spirit of Christ is the Holy Spirit, the 3rd Person.

If anyone says that Jesus Christ came in the flesh and Jesus Christ is in all believers that is good. But if any say the Holy Ghost came in the flesh or that the words "Jesus Christ is in you"(2 Cor 13:5) is not Jesus Christ the Son of God and instead this is referring to the Holy Ghost this is not right and they may be denying that Jesus Christ (the Son of God, the Word of God, the Seed )and this is a concern,

I have given you at least 4 scriptural proofs that "Christ in you", the Spirit of Christ, is the Holy Spirit. You have not refuted one of them. You've not even tried.

"2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world."(1 John 4:2,3 KJV)

Do you say that 1 John 4:2,3 should not be referred to Jesus Christ and instead the Holy Ghost?

No, the 2nd Person came in the flesh, not the 3rd. What a stupid question.

And do you say that 2 Cor 13:5 should not refer to Jesus Chris in us and instead the Holy Ghost in us these sections?

"Christ in you", the Spirit of Christ, is the Holy Spirit. As I have shown.

Show me the Holy Ghost is called "Christ" in scripture I need to see the words "Holy Ghost".

I can't show you that "Christ" is the Holy Ghost because He isn't. But I can show you that "Christ in you", the Spirit of Christ, is the Holy Ghost. And have done so.

I don not separate the trinity, these three are one

How do you understand three? and one?

what does three mean to you in relation to the Father the Word and the Holy Ghost?

No, Christ and the Holy Spirit are separate persons in the Godhead. To say otherwise is Oneness.

God is three Persons, one God.

Matthew 3:16-17 After being baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove and lighting on Him, and behold, a voice out of the heavens said, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well-pleased.”

Matthew 28:19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,


Luke 1:35 The angel answered and said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; and for that reason the holy Child shall be called the Son of God.

John 14:26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.

John 15:26 When the [a]Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, that is the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify about Me,

2 Corinthians 13:14 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with you all.

Ephesians 2:18 for through Him we both have our access in one Spirit to the Father.
and many others.
 
Upvote 0