Was 1948 the Regathering of Israel in Bible Prophecy?

Choose Wisely said:

He said He would restore Israel as a nation.......and He did it. In spite of the fact that He did what He said He would do......and we have a nation of Israel after almost 2000 years.....we still have those that will not accept the fact that He kept His word.

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Do you really believe that the Jewish State of Israel, in apostasy, is the true Israel of God? If so, you have a weird idea of who God's people are.
The Jews have been helped by God, but for the purpose of having a visible nation there, while He works with His true Israelites. The Jews face Judgment and punishment soon and only a remnant will survive. Isaiah 6:11-13, Romans 9:27

We await the final gathering of the faithful, righteous believers out of all the peoples, into God's holy Land in the end times. THEY will be the people that God always wanted in His Land, Daniel 7:25 and Revelation 13:7 proves it.

keras said:

The Jews are of many racial origins:

1. THE ASHKENAZIM JEWS
Some claim a link between Edom and the Khazars, but apart from that there is more than one identity calling themselves “Jews”; none of these have claim to the name ‘Israel’.. Regarding the Ashkenazim Jews who speak Yiddish, most dictionaries and encyclopaedia define Ashkenazim in words like after ‘Ashkenaz’, the second son of Gomer. This confirms Scripture concerning the sons of Noah, [Shem, Japheth and Ham], and their offspring.

2. THE KHAZAR JEWS
The Khazars claimed descent from Japheth, and from their adoption of Judaism, they became known as Jews. But they did not descend from Shem, and therefore they are not Semitic in origin. To relate the term “anti-Semitism” to Jews of this origin is nonsense and part of the great deception! Eastern European Jews of this origin have no Israelite connection. Anti-Semitism could not apply to them! These are the majority in the Israeli state.

3. THE SEPHARDIM JEWS
The American People’s Encyclopaedia, 1925, indicates that these people descended from Edomites who were cast out of Palestine by Prince Titus in AD 70. From thence they spread to North Africa and to Spain converting Berber Tribes and others to Judaism. There were Cardinals and Popes who were Sephardim Jews. They have no simple blood line, being Edomites diluted with Syrian, Canaanite, Phoenician and North African blood.

4. THE SEPHARDIM / ASHKENAZIM JEWISH MIXTURE
It is impossible to determine the degree of intermarriage between these two groups of non-Israelites, but there is evidence that this has been common.

5. THE ETHIOPIAN DESCENDANTS OF HAM [The Falashas]
These are known as “Jews” because of acceptance of Judaism. The Encyclopaedia Judaica states:
The joke here is that Ham, as a son of Noah, was not a black man. It is amazing that these people, who are supposed to be the educated and erudite, could make such a stupid statement.

6. BABYLONIAN and PROSELYTE JEWS
In the days of Mordecai and Esther - many who obviously were not of Judah took up Judaism
These are people from almost every race on earth. They became known as Jews because of religious spirit and belief in Judaism.

8. THE SHEMITE DESCENDANTS OF ESAU
These people also known as Edomites and some other names in Scripture. Historically, and Biblically, most of these were made proselytes to Judaism and became known as “Jews”.
Anyone who wants to identify the Jews as “Israel” is not speaking about the true Israel of God, as defined in the Bible. If we have another Israel, we have another gospel. But the same people will insist that Jews of much racial mixture are a single race when they are not. They want it both ways.

The term Ioudaios [Judean] is wrongly accepted as the “racial” term Ioudas [Jew] when reading the New Testament and is the root of the misunderstanding. The use of the territorial term, Judean, is not a measure of race, although some Israelites were amongst the proselytes to Judaism in Judea.

The word, “Jews”, cannot always be taken in the way that is commonly accepted. Modern international Jewry is primarily of Edomic or Japheth/Ashkenazim or Sephardim origin, and the Jewish Encyclopaedia states that Edom is modern Jewry. Edomites are not Israelites; it was Esau who sold his birthright. The descendants of Japheth cannot be ethnic Israelites. Neither are “Jews” of other races Israelites by race.
Modern Jewry relates to Edom, Zionism, World Government and the Israeli state, but not to Biblical Israel. At the end of the age it will be the Edomite-Jewish association with their Babylonic enmity that will be burned by fire. Obadiah 1:16-18; Rev 18:6-8
But there is a final twist declared in Encyclopedia Judaica 1971, 10, column 23:
“JEWS BEGAN IN THE 19TH CENTURY TO CALL THEMSELVES HEBREWS AND ISRAELITES IN 1860.

This coincides with the cry, “anti-Semitism”.. If Zionists began so late in history to pretend that they were Israelites or Hebrews, this confirms the hoax that claims “The Jews” are the Israel of God. Ref: REF; A.E.Kennedy

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Conclusive evidence that they are thoroughgoing genetic mongrels, in common with us and every other inhabitant of planet Earth.

keras said:

Do you really believe that the Jewish State of Israel, in apostasy, is the true Israel of God? If so, you have a weird idea of who God's people are.
The Jews have been helped by God, but for the purpose of having a visible nation there, while He works with His true Israelites. The Jews face Judgment and punishment soon and only a remnant will survive. Isaiah 6:11-13, Romans 9:27

We await the final gathering of the faithful, righteous believers out of all the peoples, into God's holy Land in the end times. THEY will be the people that God always wanted in His Land, Daniel 7:25 and Revelation 13:7 proves it.

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Yes, it's true that a remnant from the nation of Israel will be saved, and yet we must also believe what the word says. Hence the 144,000 first fruits of the coming harvest.

Rom 11
11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

And this truth will come to pass.

Choose Wisely said:

And this truth will come to pass.

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Actually, Paul was just hopeful that his fellow Jews would accept Jesus. They didn't, they haven't for the last 2000 years and we see from the prophets that they never will. Amos 2:4-5, Zephaniah 1:14-18, Ezekiel 21:1-7, +
A remnant will be saved, 12,000 from the tribe of Judah. Revelation 7:5 maybe out of the 20 million Jews worldwide; .05%

To all who hold to the belief of a 'rapture to heaven' of the Church:
Have you really considered any alternative to a 'rapture'? Because there are viable and scriptural end times scenarios where God's people remain on earth.
You need to know that many respected Bible scholars cast doubts on the rapture, if not actively refute that theory.

So the attitude of some 'rapture to heaven' believers, how they hold the moral high ground, is unwarranted and in some cases, amounts to a very judgmental and sometimes rude response to their fellow Christians.
This is a serious indictment against all who have strong beliefs but fail to really study or comprehend any alternatives.

Is it really God's Plan to remove His people, so they avoid the tough times prophesied to come?
Why should He do that for this generation, when all the previous generations have faced persecutions?
'Rapture' believers say it is a secret thing, therefore it’s not clearly stated in the Bible. Not in the Bible? So it is in fact, unbiblical and comes under the category of mankinds teachings. 2 Timothy 4:3-4

Jesus warned us against being deceived; Paul said; that ravening wolves would deceive the flock, even from among the Christians men will distort the truth to get people to follow them. Acts 20:29-30
So, plainly; some are deceived and even if they may be in a majority, that does not mean their beliefs are true.

Calminian said:

Isn't it amazing that, when it comes right down to it, you ignore the Bible and rest on man's wisdom. It's always a human argument, be it junk DNA science or errant history (others make the DNA argument). Where is your authority? Why do you allow fallible human wisdom to influence your thinking so much?

I'll trust God and the writers he inspired.

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God created DNA.
God created science.
He used both to create you and me.
But they're junk?

Choose Wisely said:

He said He would restore Israel as a nation.......and He did it.

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If you are going to make a claim such as the above provide the scripture which you believe proves your point, so that the rest of us can see it.

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Calminian said:

Straw man alert. Omitted part of the verse. Paul said, "...blindness in part..."

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Nice work.

You noticed that Dispensationalists omit part of the verse to make their doctrine work, and are therefore creating a "strawman".

Dr. John MacArthur recently appeared on Ben Shapiro's show and made the following statement...

"All Israel will be saved."

What does the Word of God say?


Rom 11:23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.
Rom 11:24 For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?
Rom 11:25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.
Rom 11:26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "THE DELIVERER WILL COME OUT OF ZION, AND HE WILL TURN AWAY UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB;
Rom 11:27 FOR THIS IS MY COVENANT WITH THEM, WHEN I TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS."

Anyone who has to misquote God to make their doctrine work is on thin ice.

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keras said:

A remnant will be saved, 12,000 from the tribe of Judah. Revelation 7:5 maybe out of the 20 million Jews worldwide; .05%

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Now let's put things in context. The remnant that will be saved is from the nation of Israel. They are the ones that flee when the abomination of desolation is set up. They go through the wrath of God in a place of protection. As for the 12,000 from the tribe of Judah they and 132,000 more from the other 11 tribes are first fruits. First fruits are a guarantee of a coming harvest. So we will see a harvest of the 12 tribes that are scattered across the world. And that is when we will see.........
how much more their fullness?

keras said:

Is it really God's Plan to remove His people, so they avoid the tough times prophesied to come?
Why should He do that for this generation, when all the previous generations have faced persecutions?

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The church will be removed pretrib. The salvation of the Gentiles will provoke the 12 tribes to jealousy. All you have to do is read what the word says.......and believe what it says.
Rom 11
11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

keras said:

'Rapture' believers say it is a secret thing, therefore it’s not clearly stated in the Bible. Not in the Bible? So it is in fact, unbiblical and comes under the category of mankinds teachings.

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Oh, it's clearly stated in the Bible many places. What isn't stated clearly is the timing of the pretribulation rapture. However, it is clearly stated that the GOODMAN will not know when He is coming. Here is one of the places we can see this rapture.
Song of Solomon 2
8 The voice of my beloved! behold, he cometh leaping upon the mountains, skipping upon the hills.
9 My beloved is like a roe or a young hart: behold, he standeth behind our wall, he looketh forth at the windows, shewing himself through the lattice.
10 My beloved spake, and said unto me, Rise up, my love, my fair one, and come away.
11 For, lo, the winter is past, the rain is over and gone;
12 The flowers appear on the earth; the time of the singing of birds is come, and the voice of the turtle is heard in our land;
13 The fig tree putteth forth her green figs, and the vines with the tender grape give a good smell. Arise, my love, my fair one, and come away.

keras said:

Jesus warned us against being deceived; Paul said; that ravening wolves would deceive the flock, even from among the Christians men will distort the truth to get people to follow them. Acts 20:29-30
So, plainly; some are deceived and even if they may be in a majority, that does not mean their beliefs are true.

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Your theory about no one going to heaven can easily be proven wrong. Here is another example of people in heaven. There is nothing about what you are saying that can't easily be disproved and yet you just roll on, despite what the word says.

Rev 5
7 And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.
8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
11 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;

BABerean2 said:

If you are going to make a claim such as the above provide the scripture which you believe proves your point, so that the rest of us can see it.

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Gosh, there's so many to choose from.........Eeny, meeny, miny, moe.
Jeremiah 16:14-15



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Choose Wisely said:

Gosh, there's so many to choose from.........Eeny, meeny, miny, moe.
Jeremiah 16:14-15



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The Book of Jeremiah was written about 626 B.C.

Was the nation of Israel taken into captivity and then brought back into the land, after the book was written?

If you destroy all of the history books about ancient history, maybe you can make your doctrine work...

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BABerean2 said:

The Book of Jeremiah was written about 626 B.C.

Was the nation of Israel taken into captivity and then brought back into the land, after the book was written?

If you destroy all of the history books about ancient history, maybe you can make your doctrine work...

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Jeremiah 16:14-15
14 Therefore, behold, the days come, saith Jehovah, that it shall no more be said, As Jehovah liveth, that brought up the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt; 15 but, As Jehovah liveth, that brought up the children of Israel from the land of the north, and from all the countries whither he had driven them. And I will bring them again into their land that I gave unto their fathers.

I'm missing the part where it says that the nation of Israel was taken captive.......IN THESE VERSES. Please feel free to point out where it says anything about captivity in these verses. Not sure why we would need to check our ancient history when these events are not about the Babylonian captivity........AS YOU KNOW.

It always seems you attempt to misrepresent what the scriptures say. Your doctrine is destroyed by the very fact that the nation of Israel exists.

My doctrine exactly agrees with scripture..........and if you can correctly point out where what I think does not agree with scripture, I will be happy to change what I think. You are the other hand will change nothing no matter how wrong you are.

Choose Wisely said:

My doctrine exactly agrees with scripture..........and if you can correctly point out where what I think does not agree with scripture, I will be happy to change what I think. You are the other hand will change nothing no matter how wrong you are.

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All the prophecies about a scattering AND REGATHERING of National Israel were fulfilled at the end of the Babylonian captivity.

There is not one single prophesy, in the Old Testament or New, written AFTER the Babylonian captivity, that mentions any subsequent scattering AND REGATHERING of Temporal, National Israel.

Not even one.

"In all your dwelling places the cities shall be laid waste, and the high places desolate . . . ye shall be scattered among the countries . . . among the nations whither they shall be carried captives . . . all the house of Israel shall remove and go into captivity . . . I will scatter them among the nations" (Ezekiel ch. 6).

This was the Diaspora. . . . And now the re-gathering of the Jews to their own land 70 years later:

"For thus saith the Lord, that after 70 years be accomplished at Babylon I will visit you . . . and I will turn away your captivity, and I will gather you from all the nations . . . and I will bring you again into the place whence I caused you to be carried away captive" (Jeremiah. 29: 10-14).

Again, Not one single verse in the Old Testament, or New, written after the Babylonian Captivity mentions any other dispersion and re-gathering of the Jews. NOT EVEN ONE.

The Bible says they WOULD be dispersed into all nations,
The Bible then confirms they DID get dispersed into all nations.
The Bible says they would be gathered back FROM all nations.
The Bible then confirms they WERE gathered back from All nations.

Prophetic fulfillment has been realized. No further fulfillment of this prophecy is necessary or biblically warranted.

Calminian said:

Isn't it amazing that, when it comes right down to it, you ignore the Bible and rest on man's wisdom.

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In Our back and forth so far in this thread, I have quoted your posts 10 times, and have exegeted in those 10 posts no less than 69 scriptural passages in support of my contentions.
Now, you may not like the conclusions I have drawn from my exegesis of said scriptures, but to claim i have "Ignored the Bible" is either blatantly dishonest, or just plain ignorant. I'm not sure which is worse.

In stark contrast, You have quoted my posts 7 times and in those 7 posts you have provided exactly 1 scriptural passage in support of your contentions, choosing instead to place a greater reliance on the non-scriptural, man-made doctrines of "Look what Hitler did" and "look at Modern Israel - look at modern Jews", etc...

I'll let our readers decide who's argument has provided the greater weight of scriptural evidence in support, and who's rests instead on "mans wisdom"...

Where is your authority? Why do you allow fallible human wisdom to influence your thinking so much?

I'll trust God and the writers he inspired.

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Do you project like this often?
See above.

You say you trust His inspired writers but have totally ignored the myriad of scriptures I have cited, offering up a grand total of ZERO alternative interpretations of them, again, preferring instead to rest your argument on "Man's Wisdom".

Is this opposite day or something?

Choose Wisely said:

Jeremiah 16:14-15
14 Therefore, behold, the days come, saith Jehovah, that it shall no more be said, As Jehovah liveth, that brought up the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt; 15 but, As Jehovah liveth, that brought up the children of Israel from the land of the north, and from all the countries whither he had driven them. And I will bring them again into their land that I gave unto their fathers.

I'm missing the part where it says that the nation of Israel was taken captive.......IN THESE VERSES. Please feel free to point out where it says anything about captivity in these verses. Not sure why we would need to check our ancient history when these events are not about the Babylonian captivity........AS YOU KNOW.

It always seems you attempt to misrepresent what the scriptures say. Your doctrine is destroyed by the very fact that the nation of Israel exists.

My doctrine exactly agrees with scripture..........and if you can correctly point out where what I think does not agree with scripture, I will be happy to change what I think. You are the other hand will change nothing no matter how wrong you are.

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Each of the verses below from the Book of Jeremiah contains the word "captive".

Jer_1:3 It came also in the days of Jehoiakim the son of Josiah, king of Judah, until the end of the eleventh year of Zedekiah the son of Josiah, king of Judah, until the carrying away of Jerusalem captive in the fifth month.

Jer_13:17 But if you will not hear it, My soul will weep in secret for your pride; My eyes will weep bitterly And run down with tears, Because the LORD's flock has been taken captive.

Jer_13:19 The cities of the South shall be shut up, And no one shall open them; Judah shall be carried away captive, all of it; It shall be wholly carried away captive.

Jer_20:4 For thus says the LORD: 'Behold, I will make you a terror to yourself and to all your friends; and they shall fall by the sword of their enemies, and your eyes shall see it. I will give all Judah into the hand of the king of Babylon, and he shall carry them captive to Babylon and slay them with the sword.

Jer_22:12 but he shall die in
the place where they have led him captive, and shall see this land no more.

Jer_24:1 The LORD showed me, and there were two baskets of figs set before the temple of the LORD, after Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon had carried away captive Jeconiah the son of Jehoiakim, king of Judah, and the princes of Judah with the craftsmen and smiths, from Jerusalem, and had brought them to Babylon.

Jer_24:5 "Thus says the LORD, the God of Israel: 'Like these good figs, so will I acknowledge those who are carried away captive from Judah, whom I have sent out of this place for their own good, into the land of the Chaldeans.

Jer_27:20 which Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon did not take, when he carried away captive Jeconiah the son of Jehoiakim, king of Judah, from Jerusalem to Babylon, and all the nobles of Judah and Jerusalem—

Jer_28:6 and the prophet Jeremiah said, "Amen! The LORD do so; the LORD perform your words which you have prophesied, to bring back the vessels of the LORD's house and all who were carried away captive, from Babylon to this place.

Jer_29:1 Now these are the words of the letter that Jeremiah the prophet sent from Jerusalem to the remainder of the elders who were carried away captive—to the priests, the prophets, and all the people whom Nebuchadnezzar had carried away captive from Jerusalem to Babylon.

Jer_29:4 Thus says the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel, to all who were carried away captive, whom I have caused to be carried away from Jerusalem to Babylon:

Jer_29:7 And seek the peace of the city where I have caused you to be carried away captive, and pray to the LORD for it; for in its peace you will have peace.

Jer_29:14 I will be found by you, says the LORD, and I will bring you back from your captivity; I will gather you from all the nations and from all the places where I have driven you, says the LORD, and I will bring you to the place from which I cause you to be carried away captive.

Jer_39:9 Then Nebuzaradan the captain of the guard carried away captive to Babylon the remnant of the people who remained in the city and those who defected to him, with the rest of the people who remained.

Jer_40:1 The word that came to Jeremiah from the LORD after Nebuzaradan the captain of the guard had let him go from Ramah, when he had taken him bound in chains among all who were carried away captive from Jerusalem and Judah, who were carried away captive to Babylon.

Jer_40:7 And when all the captains of the armies who were in the fields, they and their men, heard that the king of Babylon had made Gedaliah the son of Ahikam governor in the land, and had committed to him men, women, children, and the poorest of the land who had not been carried away captive to Babylon,

Jer_41:10 Then Ishmael carried away captive all the rest of the people who were in Mizpah, the king's daughters and all the people who remained in Mizpah, whom Nebuzaradan the captain of the guard had committed to Gedaliah the son of Ahikam. And Ishmael the son of Nethaniah carried them away captive and departed to go over to the Ammonites.

Jer_41:14 Then all the people whom Ishmael had carried away captive from Mizpah turned around and came back, and went to Johanan the son of Kareah.

Jer_43:3 But Baruch the son of Neriah has set you against us, to deliver us into the hand of the Chaldeans, that they may put us to death or carry us away captive to Babylon."

Jer_43:12 I will kindle a fire in the houses of the gods of Egypt, and he shall burn them and carry them away captive. And he shall array himself with the land of Egypt, as a shepherd puts on his garment, and he shall go out from there in peace.

Jer_48:46 Woe to you, O Moab! The people of Chemosh perish; For your sons have been taken captive, And your daughters captive.

Jer_50:33 Thus says the LORD of hosts: "The children of Israel were oppressed, Along with the children of Judah; All who took them captive have held them fast; They have refused to let them go.

Jer_52:15 Then Nebuzaradan the captain of the guard carried away captive some of the poor people, the rest of the people who remained in the city, the defectors who had deserted to the king of Babylon, and the rest of the craftsmen.

Jer_52:27 Then the king of Babylon struck them and put them to death at Riblah in the land of Hamath. Thus Judah was carried away captive from its own land.

Jer_52:28 These are the people whom Nebuchadnezzar carried away captive: in the seventh year, three thousand and twenty-three Jews;

Jer_52:29 in the eighteenth year of Nebuchadnezzar he carried away captive from Jerusalem eight hundred and thirty-two persons;

Jer_52:30 in the twenty-third year of Nebuchadnezzar, Nebuzaradan the captain of the guard carried away captive of the Jews seven hundred and forty-five persons. All the persons were four thousand six hundred.

Remove these from your Bible, to make your Two Peoples of God doctrine work.

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Choose Wisely said:

Your theory about no one going to heaven can easily be proven wrong. Here is another example of people in heaven. There is nothing about what you are saying that can't easily be disproved and yet you just roll on, despite what the word says.

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Jesus Himself disproves the 'rapture' John 3:13, John 17:15
Your Revelation 5:7-11 show angels in heaven, not humans and Song of Solomon 2:8-13 is a real desperation quote. Nothing to do with anyone going to heaven.

You know CW, that belief in false theories doesn't lose you your Salvation, but it may cause you loss of rewards and also make it difficult when things do get tough.
Do not doubt; there is coming huge changes to the world. We will experience it all, as 1 Peter 4:12 makes clear.

BABerean2 said:

Each of the verses below from the Book of Jeremiah contains the word "captive".

Jer_1:3 It came also in the days of Jehoiakim the son of Josiah, king of Judah, until the end of the eleventh year of Zedekiah the son of Josiah, king of Judah, until the carrying away of Jerusalem captive in the fifth month.

Jer_52:30 in the twenty-third year of Nebuchadnezzar, Nebuzaradan the captain of the guard carried away captive of the Jews seven hundred and forty-five persons. All the persons were four thousand six hundred.
Remove these from your Bible, to make your Two Peoples of God doctrine work.

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Could Daniel 11:33 be talking about the captivity of the Jews in Jerusalem upon the destruction of it in 70ad?

Daniel 11:33
And ones being intelligent of people they shall cause to understand to many-ones,
and they stumble in sword and in blaze, in captivity and in plunder days

Luke 21:24
And they shall be falling to mouth of sword and they shall be being led captive into all the nations.
And Jerusalem shall be being trodden by nations until which may be being filled times of nations.
[Deuteronomy 28:68/Reve 11:2/13:10]

Revelation 13:10
If any to-captivity into captivity is going away.
If any in sword to be killed, is binding him in sword to be killed.
Here is the endurance and the faith of the saints

Captivity and sword Luke 21:24 Revelation 13:10

Jeremiah 15:2
“And it shall be, if they say to you, ‘Where should we go?' then you shall tell them, ‘Thus says the LORD:
“Such as are for death, to death;
And such as are for the sword, to the sword;
And such as are for the famine, to the famine;
And such as are for the captivity, to the captivity.” '

The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD
The Destruction of Jerusalem

The day on which Titus encompassed Jerusalem, was the feast of the Passover................

Of the Jews destroyed during the siege, Josephus reckons not less than ONE MILLION AND ONE HUNDRED THOUSAND, .................
Of the captives the whole was about NINETY-SEVEN THOUSAND.

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Choose Wisely said:

....BELIEVE GOD. God is looking for faith.

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This is it in a nutshell.

keras said:

The Jews are of many racial origins:...

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So what? So are Gentiles. This is no excuse not to believe God's word and his prophecies about Israel's future conversation. It's certainly not a reason to claim Israel's blessings on ourselves. You can trust man's wisdom if you like, but don't claim to be trusting the Bible.

keras said:

Jesus Himself disproves the 'rapture' John 3:13, John 17:15
Your Revelation 5:7-11 show angels in heaven, not humans and Song of Solomon 2:8-13 is a real desperation quote. Nothing to do with anyone going to heaven.

You know CW, that belief in false theories doesn't lose you your Salvation, but it may cause you loss of rewards and also make it difficult when things do get tough.
Do not doubt; there is coming huge changes to the world. We will experience it all, as 1 Peter 4:12 makes clear.

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Wow, these verses are out of context. And the 24 elders are in heaven. Do you believe those are angels? With crowns? This is a very obvious reference to the Church, who were to receive crowns according to Paul and other NT writers (you know those crowns you think we're in danger of losing if we take the Bible literally). The elders casting crowns before God is a very vivid picture. If you believe they are angels, you are confused, because that would mean Angels can age and become old. And I've never seen references to angels given crowns and casting them before God.

We also see martyred saints in Revelation, under the alter in heaven.


And here standing before the throne of the Lamb.

parousia70 said:

In Our back and forth so far in this thread, I have quoted your posts 10 times, and have exegeted in those 10 posts no less than 69 scriptural passages in support of my contentions....

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Well, let's not get ahead of ourselves. You've definitely quoted a lot of passages out of context, but I wouldn't exactly call that reasoning from Scripture, nor exegeting. You're definitely long winded, but when it comes down to using Scripture to systemically support your case, you're woefully ineffective. In the end, you turn to man's wisdom to prove your case. Just calling it like I see it. I'll keep an eye out for some good biblical reasoning.