How do we hear God's voice?

swordsman1 · Nov 29, 2018

LoveofTruth said:
The apostles before the resurrection had a specific ministration. To see all and witness all about Jesus from John till His resurrection. To be eye witnesses and to have gone in and out with him in His ministry. But the apostles AFTER the resurrection Ephesians 4:8-11 were for a different ministration. Paul was the first of these and Barnabas ( Acts 13 and 14:14)

There is no evidence in scripture that there were 2 types of apostles that seperated Paul from the twelve. Paul regarded himself just as much an apostle as the Twelve:

2 Cor 11:5 "For I consider myself not in the least inferior to the most eminent apostles."
He associated himself himself with the Twelve 1 Cor 4:9 "God has put us apostles on display"
He appealed to his eye-witness status as evidence of his apostleship.
He performed miracles like the Twelve.
He wrote more scripture than all the others put together.
He was prepared to make a stand against Peter.
Like the twelve he did not receive the gospel from any man, but from Christ himself (Gal. 1:11-12)

LoveofTruth said:
Silvanus and Timotheus were also the apostles of Christ 1 Thess 1:1, and 1 Thess 2:6 KJV.

Silas and Timothy were not apostles.

LoveofTruth said:
Titus I believe was also an apostle after the resurrection.

Nor was Titus.

LoveofTruth said:
if some say that two of those gifts in Ephesians 4:11 are no more until we all come into the unity of the faith, then how can they justify Pastors. This verse is the only verse in the New testament that speaks of Pastors as a noun. In fact it is the only verse about pastors in the whole New Testament,. if men try to eliminate Ephesians 4:11 then they have to eliminate pastors also and evangelist and teachers.

The verse applies today, but apostles do not have be alive today to minister to us. The apostles (Paul, John, Peter etc) still minister to us when we open our bibles.

LoveofTruth said:
God set some in the church firstly apostles, secondly prophets and thirdly teachers. No verse says they are ceased. Not one. Only a inferance and wrong interpretation of certain verses.

Apostles and prophets were only for the foundation of the church.

Eph 2:20 "having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone,"

LoveofTruth said:
yes the church was built upon the apostles and prophets Jesus Christ himself being the corner stone. But we know that Jesus is still needed today.

Jesus is not needed in the flesh, when we have His Spirit and His Word. Likewise apostles are not needed in the flesh today when we have their teaching preserved in scripture.

LoveofTruth said:
This verse simply means that God laid the foundations through the apostles and prophets.

Wrong, read the verse again. It says that apostles and prophets WERE the foundation, with Christ being the cornerstone.

LoveofTruth said:
we see many examples of prophets in the New testament after the foundations had been laid in ministry. Acts 13 we read of certain prophets ( plural and teachers and apostles in Acts 1:14 etc . 1 Cor 14 shows prophets also. Paul says let the prophets speak two or three. And their gifts were unto the coming of the Lord.

The foundation of the church was not completed until the last apostle died and the canon was complete.

Bible Highlighter · Nov 29, 2018

LoveofTruth said:
We don’t sacrifice animals today this is true but the principle is the same. Before we come to worship of drawn near to God Go and reconcile with others if possible don’t have hate or unfirhiveness or bitterness in your heart

Let the peace of God rule in your heart first

I understand that this command can be loosely applied or obeyed, but it cannot be obeyed literally to it's fullest capacity like it was for that particular person who was still under the Old Covenant.

RDKirk · Nov 29, 2018

Jason0047 said:
To all:

I suppose what I am trying to say is that if there are new audible words from God or new revelations from God being given to us, then they should be written down and added to Scripture (i.e. the book known as the Bible). Yet, we see that this is the problem of many of the cults over the years (Like JW's, Mormonism, etc.).

That makes no sense. Scripture is that which is said for all believers. Not everything God has to say to someone is for everyone. That has always been true, which is why those earlier prophesies were not included in scripture.

LoveofTruth · Nov 29, 2018

Jason0047 said:
I understand that this command can be loosely applied or obeyed, but it cannot be obeyed literally to it's fullest capacity like it was for that particular person who was still under the Old Covenant.

I agree however many Jewish believers still struggled with the law and customs and sacrifices in Acts 21

Acts 21 - 17. And when we were come to Jerusalem, the brethren received us gladly. 18. And the day following Paul went in with us unto James; and all the elders were present. 19. And when he had saluted them, he declared particularly what things God had wrought among the Gentiles by his ministry. 20. And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law: 21. And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs. 22. What is it therefore? the multitude must needs come together: for they will hear that thou art come. 23. Do therefore this that we say to thee: We have four men which have a vow on them; 24. Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law. 25. As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication. 26. Then Paul took the men, and the next day purifying himself with them entered into the temple, to signify the accomplishment of the days of purifcation, until that an offering should be offered for every one of them.”

The Jewish believers were allowed the time of reformation to come out of the old covenant (Hebrews 9)

By the way sword of truth is not accurate about a great many things here I hope to answer him whenI have time

God bless

Bible Highlighter · Nov 29, 2018

RDKirk said:
That makes no sense. Scripture is that which is said for all believers. Not everything God has to say to someone is for everyone. That has always been true, which is why those earlier prophesies were not included in scripture.

Not true. In my study of the New Testament commands, I have discovered that there are tons of commands that were only for specific individuals and not for the universal church (that includes us future believers). So if what you say is true, then we should see no individual commands given to certain believers that are not for us.

Bible Highlighter · Nov 29, 2018

LoveofTruth said:
I agree however many Jewish believers still struggled with the law and customs and sacrifices in Acts 21

Acts 21 - 17. And when we were come to Jerusalem, the brethren received us gladly. 18. And the day following Paul went in with us unto James; and all the elders were present. 19. And when he had saluted them, he declared particularly what things God had wrought among the Gentiles by his ministry. 20. And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law: 21. And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs. 22. What is it therefore? the multitude must needs come together: for they will hear that thou art come. 23. Do therefore this that we say to thee: We have four men which have a vow on them; 24. Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law. 25. As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication. 26. Then Paul took the men, and the next day purifying himself with them entered into the temple, to signify the accomplishment of the days of purifcation, until that an offering should be offered for every one of them.”

The Jewish believers were allowed the time of reformation to come out of the old covenant (Hebrews 9)

By the way sword of truth is not accurate about a great many things here I hope to answer him whenI have time

God bless

The New Covenant did not officially start until Christ's death. For a testament is not in force until the testator dies. The temple veil was torn from top to bottom. The wine at the Lord's supper was symbolic of Christ's shed blood upon the cross for beginning of the New Testament. This means the Old Covenant had officially ended at Christ's death. Before the cross: Jesus primarily gave us New Testament teachings or commands so as to prepare men for the coming of the New Covenant that would begin with His death.

swordsman1 · Nov 29, 2018

LoveofTruth said:
No I didn't. read closer

"10 If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the Lord thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, and if thou turn unto the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul. 11 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off. 12 It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? 13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? 14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it. ...17 But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear"(Deuteronomy 30:10-17 KJV

With the hear man believeth unto righteousness.

I did read closer and I was right - you did take the verse out of context. The word in the Israelites hearts in v14 is the same word that Moses gave them in v10-11.

"10 If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the Lord thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, and if thou turn unto the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul. 11 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off. It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? 13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? 14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it. ...17 But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear"(Deuteronomy 30:10-17 KJV

LoveofTruth said:
Paul quotes this section in parts in Romans 10 and Paul is speaking of God the divine preacher preaching and speaking to the hearts of the people by His word in them, or close to their heat. Consider what Paul says

"6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above )7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.) 8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;"(Romans 10"6-8 KJV)

so in effect Paul is saying that Christ was in their heart speaking already. So the commandment God commanded to them wasn't hid from them God had already shined in their heart. Even the Gentiles have the work of the law written in their hearts their conscience ALSO bearing witness. God will judge the secrets of men's hearts by Jesus Christ according to Paul's gospel (Romans 2:14,15 KJV)

But Paul puts Christ in the verses lets go back and see how it sounds if we follow the revelation Paul wrote about that section and find out where Gods voice speaks and that the heart is where men hear His voice and that voice is the voice of Christ in them the mystery hid from ages.

"10 If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the Lord thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, and if thou turn unto the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul. 11 For this commandment which I command thee this day, CHRIST is not hidden from thee, neither is CHRIST far off. 12 CHRIST is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring CHRIST unto us, that we may hear CHRIST, and do CHRIST? 13 Neither is CHRIST beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring CHRIST unto us, that we may hear CHRIST, and do CHRIST? 14 But the word [of CHRIST] is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do CHRIST. ...17 But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear [CHRIST]"(Deuteronomy 30:10-17 KJV

Again your own quotation proves you wrong. The word in people's hearts is the word "which we preach". Not new revelations spoken into believers hearts.

"6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above )7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.) 8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;"(Romans 10"6-8 KJV)

Sorry, but no matter how many straws you try to grasp, and verses you try to stretch, there is not a single scripture that says God gives us new revelations by feelings in our hearts.

swordsman1 · Nov 29, 2018

LoveofTruth said:
"20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me."(Revelation 3:20 KJV)

"22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches."(Revelation 3:22 KJV)

That verse doesn't say God speaks new revelations to believers via feelings in their heart.

Gods 'voice' in scripture only ever refers to God's audible voice or his written Word.

swordsman1 · Nov 29, 2018

LoveofTruth said:
I disagree again. Even though it was written to them it applies to all and thier example etc.

We read

1 Thessalonians 1:7. So that ye were ensamples to all that believe in Macedonia and Achaia. 8. For from you sounded out the word of the Lord not only in Macedonia and Achaia, but also in every place your faith to God-ward is spread abroad; so that we need not to speak any thing.”

Again you have misread the verse you are quoting and taken it out of context. The Thessalonians previous good conduct was an example to other churches in every place. Not that Paul was writing this epistle to other churches in every place.

1 Thes 1:6-7 "You also became imitators of us and of the Lord, having received the word in much tribulation with the joy of the Holy Spirit, so that you became an example to all the believers in Macedonia and in Achaia."

RDKirk · Nov 29, 2018

Jason0047 said:
Not true. In my study of the New Testament commands, I have discovered that there are tons of commands that were only for specific individuals and not for the universal church (that includes us future believers). So if what you say is true, then we should see no individual commands given to certain believers that are not for us.

I--and I think most Christians--would say that if it's in the New Testament, it is operational for the universal Church.

Bible Highlighter · Nov 29, 2018

RDKirk said:
I--and I think most Christians--would say that if it's in the New Testament, it is operational for the universal Church.

Individual Commands meant only for the disciples:
(This is just a small sampling from my personal study):

Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ. (Matthew 16:20) (Luke 9:21 says, “ he sternly charged them, and commanded them to tell no man that thing; ).

Jesus said to his disciples,
Go into the village opposite you, and immediately you shall find a donkey tied, and a colt with her: loose them, and bring them unto me. And if any man say anything unto you, you shall say, The Lord has need of them; and immediately he will send them. And the disciples went, and did as Jesus commanded them (Matthew 21:2-3) (Matthew 21:6).

Jesus said to his disciples,
Let us go over to the other side of the lake (Luke 8:22).

Note: The universal church (or the church today) were not meant to obey these commands.

Francis Drake · Nov 29, 2018

Dave L said:
But you ignore portions that refute your ideas. You need the whole picture.

But Dave, you cessationists specialise in extracting words out of context, whilst completely ignoring the fullness of the NT.

Dave L · Nov 29, 2018

Francis Drake said:
But Dave, you cessationists specialise in extracting words out of context, whilst completely ignoring the fullness of the NT.

If you actually spoke in tongues, you could prove it authentic by a simple test everyone would consider valid. Like uniform interpretation of the same recorded tongues message by different groups. You could post a notarized transcript or even a documented lab test result.

Francis Drake · Nov 29, 2018

Dave L said:
I'm only saying, a large group with similarities to those who prophecy today will not be acceptable to Christ on the last day.

I suggest you draw a line under this contemptible stupidity of inferring I will be rejected by Christ because I believe that prophecy is valid today.
Apart from being an unholy way of trying to persuade us of your superior wisdom,

I am sure it is well outside the forum rules.

Dave L · Nov 29, 2018

Francis Drake said:
I suggest you draw a line under this contemptible stupidity of inferring I will be rejected by Christ because I believe that prophecy is valid today.
Apart from being an unholy way of trying to persuade us of your superior wisdom,

I am sure it is well outside the forum rules.

Just saying, you should be able to prove what you say with a few simple tests.

Bible Highlighter · Nov 29, 2018

The people who truly operated by miracles in the New Testament were Jesus, Peter, and Paul, etc. If apostolistic gifts are truly in operation today, then a Continuationist has to at least name me one prophet or one miracle worker in the past 2,000 years or even today.

Also, what new prophecies that are accurate and have come true from some genuine prophets in the last 2,000 years can we add to the Bible? Are these prophets always right in their predictions? Do they always heal people?

Francis Drake · Nov 29, 2018

Dave L said:
Just saying, you should be able to prove what you say with a few simple tests.

That is not what you said at all! You accused me more than once of being rejected, or unacceptable to Christ on the day of judgement, making out that I am unregenerate.
So do not insult me by lying your way out of it.
I've pasted your offending post below, the second of two such posts.

Dave L said: ↑
I'm only saying, a large group with similarities to those who prophecy today will not be acceptable to Christ on the last day.

And this was my response.-
I suggest you draw a line under this contemptible stupidity of inferring I will be rejected by Christ because I believe that prophecy is valid today.
Apart from being an unholy way of trying to persuade us of your superior wisdom, I am sure it is well outside the forum rules.

I suggest you address what I have said, and halt the lies trying to hide from it.

You are not the arbiter of eternal life in Christ Jesus, and neither is your cessationism a bench mark of that. So get down from your high horse and star walking with the rest of us.

LoveofTruth · Nov 29, 2018

Jason0047 said:
The New Covenant did not officially start until Christ's death. For a testament is not in force until the testator dies. The temple veil was torn from top to bottom. The wine at the Lord's supper was symbolic of Christ's shed blood upon the cross for beginning of the New Testament. This means the Old Covenant had officially ended at Christ's death. Before the cross: Jesus primarily gave us New Testament teachings or commands so as to prepare men for the coming of the New Covenant that would begin with His death.

Yes I agree the New testament was in His blood at Jesus death. But the Old Covenant was fading away slowly for the ones under it. They needed time to understand and Jesus said he had many things to say and to judge of them but they were not able to bear it at that time. The Holy Ghost would guide them into all truth. Also the diverse washings and carnal ordinances were imposed on them until the time of reformation as we read.It seems that right up to the destruction of the temple they still struggled with the law and customs and the old Covenant to some degree

"13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away."(Hebrews 8:13 KJV) It doesn't seem to have fully done so even when Hebrews was written as the words teach us here.

"10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation."(Hebrews 9:10 KJV)

LoveofTruth · Nov 29, 2018

swordsman1 said:
Again you have misread the verse you are quoting and taken it out of context. The Thessalonians previous good conduct was an example to other churches in every place. Not that Paul was writing this epistle to other churches in every place.

1 Thes 1:6-7 "You also became imitators of us and of the Lord, having received the word in much tribulation with the joy of the Holy Spirit, so that you became an example to all the believers in Macedonia and in Achaia."

"For from you sounded out the word of the Lord"

LoveofTruth · Nov 29, 2018

swordsman1 said:
That verse doesn't say God speaks new revelations to believers via feelings in their heart.

Gods 'voice' in scripture only ever refers to God's audible voice or his written Word.

When You say God's audible voice, what is that? God is a Spirit.And many instances where we read of God speaking to men, these may simply be God speaking in their hearts and to their inner man.

And Abraham did not have scripture yet . I can imagine if he met a man like you in his walk and told you that God spoke to him you might deny it for there was no scripture yet and how would you know God spoke to him?

In fact the scriptures themselves do not direct men in many things, it is the Spirit of God working in them that directs. N man even knows the things of God but by the Spirit and what he reveals.
For example. A man might read the scriptural qualifications of a Bishop in Timothy and say that he has all those qualifications. And in his natural mind try to be an overseer.The simple qualifications do not direct him to be a bishop. The scriptures there are not his rule and what lead him to do such a work. He may try in his natural mind and logic to be an overseer yet he did not have the call of God in his spirit to do so. The Holy Ghost makes men overseers (Acts 20) and men have to be willing to follow that call and have the desire inwardly to obey Gods call. No man can simply follow scripture here and say they are a overseer. It is a call and gift from God.

All those who are led by the Spirit are the sons of God.

Jesus said His sheep hear his voice.Now many unbelievers and pharisees heard His voice as he talked in the places he went, but they did not really hear His voice in their hearts and believe and they were not is sheep simply by hearing him talk to them. Jesus asked some why they did not understand his speech. Even because they could not hear His word. That word was in the heart sown as many scripture testify.

The word of God is quick ( alive) and powerful and it is a discerner of the thoughts and intent of the heart (hebrews 4:12 KJV), neither is there ANY CREATURE on earth that is not manifest in His sight. Therefore this word sown, is the seed sown in the heart the true Light which lighteth every man that cometh into the world

"12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. 13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do."(Hebrews 4:12,13 KJV)

This word in the heart is the seed sown in the hearts of all men as the parable shows, all are affected one way or another,

"11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away."(Luke 8 KJV)

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
...9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world."

I am speaking of a great mystery. But it seems to be hid from many it seems.

This seed, word and Light is sown in the heart of all men from Adam until today, way before any scripture is given. All things that are reproved are made manifest by the Light. When men hate this light because their deeds are evil then they are condemned. This means that any man anywhere at any time who hates the light he does so because his deeds are evil. Even the Gentiles with no scripture show the work of the law written in their hearts and God is able to judge them one day. 19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them."(Romans 1:19 KJV). They hold the truth in unrighteousness. The truth, the seed, the word, the Light, Christ in them, are all connected as the Spirit has shown in scripture..

The scripture does not contradict this word because the Lord is working through both. The scripture was given by the Spirit. And the word is spirit and life.

When Jesus called Matthew he simply got up and followed him. He was already one of Jesus sheep and he heard His voice and followed him. He didn't just hear him in the natural but in the spirit. Jesus didn't quote scripture to him then he called him. For His spirit bears witness with our spirit. God searches the heart and His word abides in those who believe.

Jesus said that no man knows the father but the Son and to whom he reveals him. So no amount of reading or human effort can make a person know the father. This is by revelation. Jesus blessed peter when he confessed that Jesus Christ was the Christ the Son of God. He said flesh and blood had not revealed it unto him, but the Father in heaven.

But some today might read scriptures and intellectually know what they are to say and try to mimick this and yet in their heart they are not regenerated or called or hear the fathers revelation of the Son. Yet they will say they have scripture and try to follow what they think scripture is directing them to do.

yet they are not led by the spirit.

This is what many of the religious pharisees of Jesus day did. They thought they had eternal life in the scriptures. yet Jesus said they spke of him. But they would not come to him. Instead they clung to scripture and the letter instead of the Spirit.

How do we hear God's voice?

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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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