Resources on Evolution

juvenissun

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The books I suggested were written to provide a clear explanation to intelligent laymen of what the theory of evolution claims and why scientists think those claims are true. One was written by a Christian. Is that what you mean by "pro-evolution?"

Evolution is such an evil thing that it apparently has A LOT evidences to support it. However, it does take some scientific background to discover that every one of the so-called evidence can not stand for detail scrutiny. Most people can not do that.

But I can do it. Want to try? The warning is that doing that may shake your faith to evolution.
 
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Speedwell

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Evolution is such an evil thing that it apparently has A LOT evidences to support it. However, it does take some scientific background to discover that every one of the so-called evidence can not stand for detail scrutiny. Most people can not do that.

But I can do it. Want to try? The warning is that doing that may shake your faith to evolution.
I have faith in Christ, not evolution. Evolution is just a scientific theory. It is plausible and well-evidenced and I can see no reason not to accept it on that basis. But evolution, like all other scientific theories, is accepted with the proviso that it could be overturned at any time by new evidence. Not really something one could have "faith" in the same way one has faith in Christ. So go ahead and try if you want to. Maybe you can change my mind about evolution. You are highly unlikely to change my ideas about God and the Bible.
 
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USincognito

a post by Alan Smithee
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While I appreciate your post, it is quite over my head with terms with which I am unfamiliar. Can you break it down by chance?
Indeed, tomorrow. I'm on my phone only today and hate typing long/detailed posts.
 
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juvenissun

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I have faith in Christ, not evolution. Evolution is just a scientific theory. It is plausible and well-evidenced and I can see no reason not to accept it on that basis. But evolution, like all other scientific theories, is accepted with the proviso that it could be overturned at any time by new evidence. Not really something one could have "faith" in the same way one has faith in Christ. So go ahead and try if you want to. Maybe you can change my mind about evolution. You are highly unlikely to change my ideas about God and the Bible.

You take evolution as an acceptable scientific model, but has no faith on it. That is very good. No objection.

However, in apologetics, this stand is dangerous and you may not even be able to defend yourself. To me, the evolution model is NOT acceptable scientifically.
 
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Samaritan Woman

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You do know that anything CAN be argued in two opposite ways and both side could give many "evidences" for their arguments. Right?

If so, you should NOT ask for pro-evolution articles to read, particularly you are not good in science. The Lord clearly tell us not to argue with satan. Because you WILL lose the argument even satan is all wrong.

How can I witness to and engage atheists/agnostics if I do not understand from where they are coming? I need to have a grasp of their point of reference so I can intelligently discuss with such unbelievers on their level...
 
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Jimmy D

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How can I witness to and engage atheists/agnostics if I do not understand from where they are coming? I need to have a grasp of their point of reference so I can intelligently discuss with such unbelievers on their level...

A sensible approach. :oldthumbsup:

People who spout ill-informed nonsense (as can been seen above - "evolution model is NOT acceptable scientifically" for example) Just make themselves, and by extension their beliefs, seem foolish.
 
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Speedwell

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You take evolution as an acceptable scientific model, but has no faith on it. That is very good. No objection.

However, in apologetics, this stand is dangerous and you may not even be able to defend yourself. To me, the evolution model is NOT acceptable scientifically.
Good. Then you should have science-based arguments against it.
 
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46AND2

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How can I witness to and engage atheists/agnostics if I do not understand from where they are coming? I need to have a grasp of their point of reference so I can intelligently discuss with such unbelievers on their level...

I was raised YEC, however the age of the earth/universe was not as important to the members of my church and family as it is for most fundamentalists. It didn't take much for me to become convinced of the old age of the universe, and became an OEC by the time I was 19 or 20.

However, evolution was an important sticking point. A couple years later, I was compelled, much the same way as you are, to understand the opposing view in order to adequately and honestly engage in discussions about evolution with those who accepted it.

In doing so, I became convinced of the veracity of the theory of evolution; it became undeniable.

However, I'd like to point out to you that I also learned that evolution, like any other science, has nothing to do with belief in god in general or Christianity specifically. It may contradict certain interpretations of the Bible of course, but there is nothing about the theory which focuses on disproving that interpretation. It is merely an observation of how life has changed since it began on earth. So for the next decade, I was convinced that evolution was the method that god used to form humans and other modern species.

My atheism came much later, and had absolutely nothing to do with evolution. Why would it? For ten years I had no problems accepting both evolution and Christianity. Indeed, for the first half of those years, it actually strengthened my faith, as I was not at odds with science; I didn't have that apprehension about why there was conflict between what science thought they knew and what creationists thought they knew.
 
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juvenissun

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How can I witness to and engage atheists/agnostics if I do not understand from where they are coming? I need to have a grasp of their point of reference so I can intelligently discuss with such unbelievers on their level...

True. But that would be based on your capability to pick up their mistakes. When you read their "introductory" books/articles/films, and you do not have a strong scientific background, then you are simply a sheep on the slaughter's table. Everything they said would probably make sense to you.

Even you would have a similar problem but from the opposite side, you are still better off by reading some critiques of evolution written by creationist. There are plenty of this type of reading material out there.
 
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Thank you for the book recommendation. I viewed it and read the comments and found that some readers stated the author was always criticizing and ranting against creationists throughout the book. Do you by chance know of another book where it's just about the facts about evolution in an easy to understand way?

Perhaps you should go the whole hog and buy Evolution by Douglas Futuyma. It isn't for a layman exactly, but it's affordable and covers all the bases.

https://www.amazon.com/Evolution-Douglas-J-Futuyma/dp/1605351156/ref=cm_cr_arp_d_product_top?ie=UTF8
 
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Speedwell

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True. But that would be based on your capability to pick up their mistakes. When you read their "introductory" books/articles/films, and you do not have a strong scientific background, then you are simply a sheep on the slaughter's table. Everything they said would probably make sense to you.

Even you would have a similar problem but from the opposite side, you are still better off by reading some critiques of evolution written by creationist. There are plenty of this type of reading material out there.
Unfortunately, much of this material misrepresents the theory of evolution. I've read most of it, and spent enough time in this forum arguing with creationists--not about whether the theory of evolution is right or wrong, but just about what it says. It's gotten to the point that when a creationist says to me "The theory of evolution requires..." It is pretty safe to bet the ranch that what follows will be a howler. At some point, if one wants to argue this subject seriously, one will have to learn about the theory of evolution, what it really claims, not what some creation apologist says that it claims. The Ernst Mayr book, in particular, was written to clear up a lot of laymen's misconceptions about evolutionary theory, not to contest for their souls. Collins is a Christian; don't you trust him either?
 
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Samaritan Woman

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However, I'd like to point out to you that I also learned that evolution, like any other science, has nothing to do with belief in god in general or Christianity specifically. It may contradict certain interpretations of the Bible of course, but there is nothing about the theory which focuses on disproving that interpretation. It is merely an observation of how life has changed since it began on earth. So for the next decade, I was convinced that evolution was the method that god used to form humans and other modern species.

My atheism came much later, and had absolutely nothing to do with evolution.

Thank you for your comments as they provided me with some great insight. Too bad you became an atheist, though! :cry: :(
 
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Speedwell

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How can I witness to and engage atheists/agnostics if I do not understand from where they are coming? I need to have a grasp of their point of reference so I can intelligently discuss with such unbelievers on their level...
It depends on what you are going to witness to. The issue is not really theism vs. atheism. Those who accept evolution are not all atheists; many are theists, even committed Christians. And why evolution What does evolution have to do with the Great Commission??
 
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sesquiterpene

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Thank you for your comments as they provided me with some great insight. Too bad you became an atheist, though! :cry: :(
I will echo a previous comment: the best way to systematically learn about evolution is to read an introductory college level textbook on evolution.

New (and even used) college textbooks are horribly expensive, but if you go to an earlier edition of the same book the price drops to reasonable levels.

I have Evolutionary Analysis by Freeman & Herron (2nd edition) , and it is actually quite readable. It will be slow going because there is a lot of information, but I managed get through the whole thing. I wasn't taking a course at the time, simply satisfying my curiosity.

Of course, if you are really serious you can always take some college courses in evolution and related subjects.
 
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inquiring mind

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Those who accept evolution are not all atheists; many are theists, even committed Christians. And why evolution What does evolution have to do with the Great Commission??
Wasn’t the Great Commission the instruction of the resurrected Jesus Christ to his disciples to spread his teachings to all the nations of the world. . . was the Old Testament in general and Genesis in particular not included?
 
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USincognito

a post by Alan Smithee
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Awesome.

Here's a few observations from genetics supporting common ancestry:
203,000 endogenous retrieval insertions shared by humans and chimpanzees
Human chromosome 2 is a fusion of chimpanzee 2a and 2b.
All Haplorhine primates share a broken GULO gene for vitamin C production inherited from a common ancestor.
Whales have a broken Sonic Hedgehog/Hand2 pathway for hind limb development inherited from a common ancestor.
All placental and marsupial mammals have vitellogenin pseudogenes for egg yolk sac development.

While I appreciate your post, it is quite over my head with terms with which I am unfamiliar. Can you break it down by chance?

Now that I have a proper keyboard and mouse, all of these things are predictions or expected observations if common ancestry is a fact.

Endogenization is when viral DNA get's incorporated into a genome. The process is really quite uncommon. A viral infection has to get into a germ cell (egg or sperm) and that particular germ cell has to be the one to become a baby. That baby has to then grow up and be reproductively successful to the point where the endogenized viral DNA "fixes" or spreads to a majority of the population. Despite all those variables, it has happened 203,000 separate times in the shared ancestry of humans and chimpanzees. On the other hand, since the ancestral population split into humans and chimps, it has only happened about 300 times.

It was known that humans have 46 chromosomes while our fellow apes have 48 and it was predicted that we should find evidence of a fusion event. Fusion or duplication of chromosomes can cause genetic disorders, but if none of the genes that actually do stuff (form structures, etc.) is damaged, a duplication or fusion won't effect the fitness of the individual in which it happens. Similarly with ERVs that individual must be reproductively successful enough that their fused chromosome becomes the norm in the population. Sure enough when geneticists did a proper sequencing and analysis of the human and chimpanzee genomes, they found that human chromosome 2 had an extra middle part called a centomere and two extra end parts called telomeres indicating that it was a fused version of 2 ancestral genes which remaine separate in the chimpanzee line.

Haplorhines are a group of primates that includes tarsiers, monkeys and apes (including humans). L-gulonolactone oxidase or GULO is an enzyme that synthesizes vitamin C. In haplorhines it is non-functional (GULOp for pseudogene) and is broken in the same way for all of us. It's also non-functional in bats and guinea pigs, but it's broken in a different way in each of those two groups.

Whales and dolphins are proposed to have evolved from terrestrial mammals. If that is true then we could expect to find some anatomical and genetic vestiges of that evolutionary history. We've known that whales have vestigial pelvises that have been coopted for function other than anchoring the hind limbs. whales actually grow hind limb buds in the embryonic stage which usually are absorbed back into the body. A humpback whale in 1919 (if I recall correctly) was discovered with redumentary atavistic (throwback) legs on the hind part of it's body. In 2006 a dolphin was discovered with even more rudimentary hind limbs.
Cetacean Evolution: Whale Evolution and Atavistic Hind Limbs on Modern Whales
A few years back the identified the mutation that caused them to lose their hind limbs. Sonic Hedgehog (yes, that's it's actual name) and Hand2 work together to form the hind limbs in mammals. In whales that gene pathway is still there, inherited from terrestrial ancestors, but it's non-functional.

Placental and marsupial mammals have inherited pseudogenes for making egg yolk sacs even though we don't produce actual amniotic eggs like monotremes (platypus, echidna), birds and reptiles do.
 
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juvenissun

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Unfortunately, much of this material misrepresents the theory of evolution. I've read most of it, and spent enough time in this forum arguing with creationists--not about whether the theory of evolution is right or wrong, but just about what it says. It's gotten to the point that when a creationist says to me "The theory of evolution requires..." It is pretty safe to bet the ranch that what follows will be a howler. At some point, if one wants to argue this subject seriously, one will have to learn about the theory of evolution, what it really claims, not what some creation apologist says that it claims. The Ernst Mayr book, in particular, was written to clear up a lot of laymen's misconceptions about evolutionary theory, not to contest for their souls. Collins is a Christian; don't you trust him either?

No, I don't trust whatever said in favor of evolution by anyone. And I am able to argue against anyone of them. The point is whatever they said might be true, but it can not be applied to many other similar situations. A very limited truth is not a truth at all.

I don't see what's wrong with the statement begins with: "The theory of evolution requires...". What is the problem? Let me give you an example: "The theory of evolution requires an assumed classification scheme."
 
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