Absolute Predestination

truefiction1 · Oct 25, 2018

YeshuaFan said:
Yes, but none save Jesus Himself have had that since!

Thank you for answering.

truefiction1 · Oct 25, 2018

YeshuaFan said:
Yes, but none save Jesus Himself have had that since!

Now, are you sure that a human being's freewill, which Adam had, is not restored by the grace (i.e. power) of the Holy Spirit by which we who were dead in sin and trespasses are "quickened"?

YeshuaFan · Oct 25, 2018

truefiction1 said:
Now, are you sure that a human being's freewill, which Adam had, is not restored by the grace (i.e. power) of the Holy Spirit by which we who were dead in sin and trespasses are "quickened"?

I was just addressing all of our states before being saved by God!

JM · Oct 25, 2018

But Adam had freewill, before his fall, right? This is, after all, the answer I was expecting you to answer with when I asked "by what means did Adam choose to eat the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and succeed in eating it". The means by which Adam fell then, is Adam's freewill, which God created him with. Right?

Scripture is pretty clear about this, we are free to choose what we desire, and what we desire most is freely chosen.

It is a matter of nature or disposition.

Christians who believe in the absolute predestination of all things deny the idea of freewill ‘if’ its packed with a presupposition that assumes total libertarian freewill behind it. If it’s assumed we have total libertarian freewill – it must be denied.

We do not deny freewill ‘if’ you mean the will of man freely choses what it desires. Paul explains this in Romans 7, “For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing”

Consider “Isaiah’s Commission” as it is called in the NASB.

6.8 Then I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, “Whom shall I send, and who will go for Us?” Then I said, “Here am I. Send me!” 9 He said, “Go, and tell this people:

‘Keep on listening, but do not perceive;

Keep on looking, but do not understand.’

10 “Render the hearts of this people [e]insensitive,

Their ears [f]dull,

And their eyes [g]dim,

Otherwise they might see with their eyes,

Hear with their ears,

Understand with their hearts,

And return and be healed.”

11 Then I said, “Lord, how long?” And He answered,

“Until cities are devastated and without inhabitant,

Houses are without people

And the land is utterly desolate,

12 “The Lord has removed men far away,

And the [h]forsaken places are many in the midst of the land.

13 “Yet there will be a tenth portion in it,

And it will again be subject to burning,

Like a terebinth or an oak

Whose stump remains when it is felled.

The holy seed is its stump.”

Isaiah was sent to preach until the people listened but did not perceive…until their hearts became insensitive to the things of God, until their ears and eyes of understanding became dim. Why was this done? So the people “might not see with their eyes, Hear with their ears, and UNDERSTAND…” How long was Isaiah to perform this ministry of reprobation? “Until cities are devastated and without inhabitant, houses without people AND THE LAND IS UTTERLY DESOLATE.”

Did the people Isaiah preached to have total libertarian freewill?

Yours in the Lord,

jm

truefiction1 · Oct 25, 2018

YeshuaFan said:
I was just addressing all of our states before being saved by God!

You know what I think? I think that what a man or a woman is quickened, or whose soul is restored by the Holy Spirit, that they become once again a "living soul" like Adam was said to be in Genesis, prior to his fall. And as living souls, living because we abide in the grace of the Holy Spirit, we possess that same faculty of freewill that Adam had before the fall.

Adam had been a living soul with a freewill by the power of God's grace, and yet he was able to choose to abide in sin and death as opposed to God's grace. Do we who are now also living souls by the power of God's grace not also have freewill, by which we can also choose, as did Adam, to abide in sin and death as opposed to God's grace?

I detect within myself the ability to choose between abiding in God's grace, or turning away from God in order to indulge my desires to commit sin, by entertaining sinful thoughts, speaking in sinful ways, or acting on sinful impulses. I have freewill. I am like Adam, having both the grace of God in me and the ability to reject His grace and be disobedient.

JM · Oct 25, 2018

truefiction1 said:
Now, are you sure that a human being's freewill, which Adam had, is not restored by the grace (i.e. power) of the Holy Spirit by which we who were dead in sin and trespasses are "quickened"?

Romans 7:21-25

21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Paul taught that a Law of Sin remains in the Saint and we are at constant war with our sin nature.

Yours in the Lord,

jm

truefiction1 · Oct 25, 2018

JM said:
Scripture is pretty clear about this, we are free to choose what we desire, and what we desire most is freely chosen.

It is a matter of nature or disposition.

Christians who believe in the absolute predestination of all things deny the idea of freewill ‘if’ its packed with a presupposition that assumes total libertarian freewill behind it. If it’s assumed we have total libertarian freewill – it must be denied.

We do not deny freewill ‘if’ you mean the will of man freely choses what it desires. Paul explains this in Romans 7, “For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing”

Consider “Isaiah’s Commission” as it is called in the NASB.

6.8 Then I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, “Whom shall I send, and who will go for Us?” Then I said, “Here am I. Send me!” 9 He said, “Go, and tell this people:

‘Keep on listening, but do not perceive;

Keep on looking, but do not understand.’

10 “Render the hearts of this people [e]insensitive,

Their ears [f]dull,

And their eyes [g]dim,

Otherwise they might see with their eyes,

Hear with their ears,

Understand with their hearts,

And return and be healed.”

11 Then I said, “Lord, how long?” And He answered,

“Until cities are devastated and without inhabitant,

Houses are without people

And the land is utterly desolate,

12 “The Lord has removed men far away,

And the [h]forsaken places are many in the midst of the land.

13 “Yet there will be a tenth portion in it,

And it will again be subject to burning,

Like a terebinth or an oak

Whose stump remains when it is felled.

The holy seed is its stump.”

Isaiah was sent to preach until the people listened but did not perceive…until their hearts became insensitive to the things of God, until their ears and eyes of understanding became dim. Why was this done? So the people “might not see with their eyes, Hear with their ears, and UNDERSTAND…” How long was Isaiah to perform this ministry of reprobation? “Until cities are devastated and without inhabitant, houses without people AND THE LAND IS UTTERLY DESOLATE.”

Did the people Isaiah preached to have total libertarian freewill?

Yours in the Lord,

jm

I don't mean to be rude, or unappreciative. but I have limited ability at this time to read lengthy posts. So, it would be best, for my purposes, if you gave short and simple answers to my short and simple questions. I'm well aware of the teachings of Scripture. Thanks for your answer, I'll consider it.

JM said:
Romans 7:21-25

21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Paul taught that a Law of Sin remains in the Saint and we are at constant war with our sin nature.

Yours in the Lord,

jm

Paul did not say that he lacked the ability, having been given the Holy Spirit, to overcome the flesh, or the law of the flesh, only that there was a law of sin in his fleshly members that warred against the spirit. It is by means of the grace (power) of the Holy Spirit that Paul is able to "crucify the flesh, with all of its desires...". (Galatians 5:24) (Romans 6:6) It is by this same Spirit, with his own freewill being a fully operational agent, that he is able to succeed in becoming "dead to sin", and thereby also "alive in Christ" (Romans 6:11).

JM · Oct 25, 2018

truefiction1 said:
I don't mean to be rude, or unappreciative. but I have limited ability at this time to read lengthy posts. So, it would be best, for my purposes, if you gave short and simple answers to my short and simple questions. I'm well aware of the teachings of Scripture. Thanks for your answer, I'll consider it.

I totally understand truefiction and I wish I could accommodate your request, however, none of the answers anyone could offer would be short or simple. The questions you ask require lengthily and complicated answers.

Complicated questions that receive simple answers are often used to throw someone onto the horns of a dilemma or force a person into a corner. I know you don't want that.

May I could be so bold as to suggest...if you do not have the time for a lengthily response perhaps, forgive me if I sound rude, you really don't have the time to deal with the questions and answers adequately?

Paul did not say that he lacked the ability,

Simple answer: "For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do."

having been given the Holy Spirit,

I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

to overcome the flesh, or the law of the flesh,

I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

Insert any performance by the Saint you like and you still find a Law.

only that there was a law of sin in his fleshly members that warred against the spirit. It is by means of the grace (power) of the Holy Spirit that Paul is able to "crucify the flesh, with all of its desires...". (Galatians 5:24) (Romans 6:6) It is by this same Spirit, with his own freewill being a fully operational agent, that he is able to succeed in becoming "dead to sin", and thereby also "alive in Christ" (Romans 6:11).

It's important to note that Galatians 5 is pointing to "the fruit of the Spirit..." which prevents the reigning of sin in the flesh, but not the eradication of sin in the flesh. That's why Paul wrote so clearly, "I find then a law..." Our sinful nature is always there. Romans 6:6 reads, "that henceforth we SHOULD NOT serve sin" which I would argue is in line with Romans 7, "For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do."

The fruit of the Spirit is given by God to the faithful not got or had by the saints due to their performance.

Yours in the Lord,

jm

truefiction1 · Oct 25, 2018

JM said:
I totally understand truefiction and I wish I could accommodate your request, however, none of the answers anyone could offer would be short or simple. The questions you ask require lengthily and complicated answers.

Complicated questions that receive simple answers are often used to throw someone onto the horns of a dilemma or force a person into a corner. I know you don't want that.

May I could be so bold as to suggest...if you do not have the time for a lengthily response perhaps, forgive me if I sound rude, you really don't have the time to deal with the questions and answers adequately?

Simple answer: "For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do."

I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

Insert any performance by the Saint you like and you still find a Law.

It's important to note that Galatians 5 is pointing to "the fruit of the Spirit..." which prevents the reigning of sin in the flesh, but not the eradication of sin in the flesh. That's why Paul wrote so clearly, "I find then a law..." Our sinful nature is always there. Romans 6:6 reads, "that henceforth we SHOULD NOT serve sin" which I would argue is in line with Romans 7, "For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do."

The fruit of the Spirit is given by God to the faithful not got or had by the saints due to their performance.

Yours in the Lord,

jm

Not by their performance, no. But by the orientation of their own will, which opens the door for the grace of the Holy Spirit to operate in them. The Holy Spirit brings the power the saint needs to triumph over the sinful nature of the flesh. The will of the person, restored by the grace of the Holy Spirit, desires to turn away from sin and toward's the Love of God. God therefore gives the person what they desire and ask for. The will is still intact and is an active agent in this relationship between the person and God. The will retains the ability also to steer the person away from God, onto a sinful path which is not what God wills, but only what God foreknew and therefor preordained (destined). The Bible tells simply that God does not desire the death of a sinner, but that the sinner would turn to Him, and Live, and that God desires for all mankind to be saved and come to the knowledge of the Truth (i.e. the knowledge of God).

But there's really no need to delve into such complex language for most of us simple fishermen. Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ always spoke simply and plainly. His first words of public ministry were easily understood by those who would follow Him: "Repent! For the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand!"

This means "Stop being a sinner and receive the Love of God into yourselves: becoming Love, as God is Love". He tells this to everyone, By His Word, (and through our conscience) not just some, so it's on us, not Him, if we repent or not.

See, its as simple as it gets.

1stcenturylady · Oct 25, 2018

Dave L said:
But your flesh won't be renewed until the resurrection.

“But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.” (James 1:14–15)
Lust is not in the Spirit, it is in the flesh and remains temptation and not sin unless we give in to it.

Wow! So we're right back to the old "there is only one interpretation for the word, 'flesh'" are we? There are three!

1. flesh of an animal as meat, or that of our own bodies.
2. flesh, as in carnal nature, dealing with the mind/emotions where sin resides (Romans 8:8-9)
3. ancestry/kinsman

This discussion has been circular. You refuse to grasp Paul is talking of no. 2 and have again pointed to no. 1, the resurrection of our bodies, another topic altogether. :doh:

I'm getting off this merry-go-round. If you actually believe there is only one interpretation for the flesh, and not open to three, we'll get no where.

1stcenturylady · Oct 25, 2018

YeshuaFan said:
The best thing to be!

Especially if you like wide crowded spaces, not beautiful narrow pathways...

1stcenturylady · Oct 25, 2018

ICONO'CLAST · Oct 25, 2018

truefiction1 said:
Ah, so maybe you can give the answer: When Adam, the "living soul" (living because God's life, or grace, had been "breathed" into him) was in the Paradise of Eden, and not fallen, and not dead in sin, not having committed any sin yet, by what means did he choose to eat of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, and to succeed in eating it?

Hello tf1,

God has created man with the ability to choose.
That being said Adam had what we would call original righteousness
that was untested as of yet.
We are told by God through Moses writing....he failed. God had told him dying thou shalt surely die. That happened with lasting and ongoing effects upon Adam and his posterity

To see what unfallen man is, we have to look to the last Adam.
The Lord Jesus always submitted His will to the will of the Father, sinless. In heaven, sin will no longer be possible.

truefiction1 · Oct 25, 2018

ICONO'CLAST said:
Hello tf1,

God has created man with the ability to choose.
That being said Adam had what we would call original righteousness
that was untested as of yet.
We are told by God through Moses writing....he failed. God had told him dying thou shalt surely die. That happened with lasting and ongoing effects upon Adam and his posterity

To see what unfallen man is, we have to look to the last Adam.
The Lord Jesus always submitted His will to the will of the Father, sinless. In heaven, sin will no longer be possible.

Good. Does the Holy Spirit give us grace (power) to be dead to sin and Alive to God in Christ, if we want this? Does our Father give us the Holy Spirit if we truly want this?

ICONO'CLAST · Oct 25, 2018

truefiction1,

[Good.]
We should agree on more than we do not agree on :wave:

[Does the Holy Spirit give us grace (power) to be dead to sin and Alive to God in Christ],

Romans 6:1-11 declares that to be our exact condition if we are God's child by regeneration[new birth]
[If we want this?]
this is not optional, but rather it is the condition of every child of God who are enabled and led by The Spirit to MORTIFY sin.
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.

13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
Does our Father give us the Holy Spirit if we truly want this?

truefiction1 · Oct 25, 2018

ICONO'CLAST said:
truefiction1,

[Good.]
We should agree on more than we do not agree on

[Does the Holy Spirit give us grace (power) to be dead to sin and Alive to God in Christ],

Romans 6:1-11 declares that to be our exact condition if we are God's child by regeneration[new birth]
[If we want this?]
this is not optional, but rather it is the condition of every child of God who are enabled and led by The Spirit to MORTIFY sin.
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.

13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
Does our Father give us the Holy Spirit if we truly want this?

Luke 11:9-13 records Christ teaching us that we must be wanting this and asking for it if we would receive it:

"So I tell you: Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened.

What father among you, if his son asks for a fish, will give him a snake instead? Or if he asks for an egg, will give him a scorpion? So if you who are evil know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him!”

Such instructions highlight the role that our will plays in our relationship with our Lord and God.

ICONO'CLAST · Oct 25, 2018

truefiction1 said:
Luke 11:9-13 records Christ teaching us that we must be wanting this and asking for it if we would receive it:

"So I tell you: Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened.

What father among you, if his son asks for a fish, will give him a snake instead? Or if he asks for an egg, will give him a scorpion? So if you who are evil know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him!”

Such instructions highlight the role that our will plays in our relationship with our Lord and God.

TF1,
Our relationship with God as our Father is to be one of willing obedience,prayer, service, and worship. Believers have been made willing by His power,psalm 110:3
It is night and day different from a rebellious natural man who is at enmity with God.lk19:14 But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us.

nonaeroterraqueous · Oct 25, 2018

truefiction1 said:
Such instructions highlight the role that our will plays in our relationship with our Lord and God.

Your position throughout this thread has been about what role our will plays in our relationship with God. You seem to think that this runs counter to Calvinism (monergism), but it does not. The human will determines our attitude and behavior toward God, and both sides agree on that.

So, what determines the will? As far as I can tell, you've never proposed an answer to this issue, which is precisely what Calvinism is all about. All of your responses have been geared toward the suggestion that God does not override our will to change our relationship with him, but both sides already agree on that. A person lives according to his will, not in spite of it.

Everything has a cause, though, and you have not presented a cause for the nature of a person's will. Some would say that the human will is a product of circumstance, but is God not sovereign over circumstances? Some seem to think that the human will has no cause but itself, making it an effect with no cause, or an original cause, but isn't God the only original cause in our universe? Some would regard it as a product of random chance, but randomness is not a real thing, other than an expression of a person's inability to comprehend the complex interactions leading to an event.

Something caused a human will to be what it is, because everything has a cause. If God was not involved, then something out of God's control led a man to be what he is, or the man led himself to be what he is, making the man a god beyond the control of God, an effect without a cause, a self-extant being like the I Am (supporting the idolatry of self).

The love of a will free from the sovereignty of God is a love of self.

truefiction1 · Oct 25, 2018

Psalms 51:12

ICONO'CLAST · Oct 25, 2018

ICONO'CLAST said:
TF1,
Our relationship with God as our Father is to be one of willing obedience,prayer, service, and worship. Believers have been made willing by His power,psalm 110:3
It is night and day different from a rebellious natural man who is at enmity with God.lk19:14 But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us.

I think we should agree here.

Absolute Predestination

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