What saves a person?

justbyfaith · Oct 17, 2018

Jason0047 said:
because the Bible never says that the believer who is not perfect will be cast into everlasting fire.

No; but it seems to be what you say.

Bible Highlighter · Oct 17, 2018

justbyfaith said:
Justice, love, faith, and mercy are all aspects of what it means to believe in Jesus.

If you are saying that works of faith (love) are a part of the faith, then I agree. For you can no more separate works of faith from faith than you can separate an atom with a pair of tweezers.

Bible Highlighter · Oct 17, 2018

justbyfaith said:
No; but it seems to be what you say.

So you are making assumptions of what I appear to say instead of actually going by what I have said?

justbyfaith · Oct 17, 2018

Jason0047 said:
I am not doubting God can work in our hearts and lives. But Scripture also says you have to endure to the end to be saved. Scripture also says you have to KEEP yourself in the love of God, too. God does not force his salvation and love upon people. We have to cooperate with God. It's synergistic.

In initial salvation we surrender our lives to Jesus Christ. He then regenerates our hearts so that this surrender continues to be the epitome of who we are as born again Christians. When we read scriptures like what you are bringing up, our response is obedience because we have been given regenerated hearts.

Bible Highlighter · Oct 17, 2018

justbyfaith said:
In initial salvation we surrender our lives to Jesus Christ. He then regenerates our hearts so that this surrender continues to be the epitome of who we are as born again Christians. When we read scriptures like what you are bringing up, our response is obedience because we have been given regenerated hearts.

Yes, we can be born again spiritually by accepting Christ.
But we still have free will, too.
The Bible says we also have to endure to the end to be saved.
It also says we have to KEEP ourselves in the love of God, as well.

justbyfaith · Oct 17, 2018

Jason0047 said:
So you are making assumptions of what I appear to say instead of actually going by what I have said?

If it is not what you really believe then say so. I know that I do make judgments about what people really believe and cannot go back and prove that they said it because it is too tedious of a process to find where and when they said the thing that makes me believe that they believe a certain thing. So I choose rather to go based on my instinct of what I believe they have said to me and if they want to deny that they said it then they need to be consistent from that point forward about keeping their doctrine in accordance with their denial. If they will agree that they said it then we can go from there.

justbyfaith · Oct 17, 2018

Jason0047 said:
Yes, we can be born again spiritually by accepting Christ.
But we still have free will, too.
The Bible says we also have to endure to the end to be saved.
It also says we have to KEEP ourselves in the love of God, as well.

The tails side of the coin.

Bible Highlighter · Oct 17, 2018

Believers can fall away from the faith:

Here are several lists of verses that makes it absolutely clear that believers can fall away from the faith:

Here is a General List of Verses on How Believers Can Fall Away:

1 Samuel 16:14
1 Samuel 31:4
Ezekiel 18:24
Hebrews 3:12-14
Hebrews 4:11
Hebrews 6:4-9
Hebrews 10:26-30
Hebrews 12:15
1 Timothy 1:18-20
1 Timothy 4:1-7
Galatians 3:1-5
2 Peter 2:20-22
2 Peter 3:17
Matthew 13:18-23
1 Corinthians 10:12
2 Thessalonians 2:3

Now, do not misunderstand me, believers cannot lose their salvation (like they would a pair of car keys), but they can forfeit their salvation (i.e. they can willingly throw it away by rebelling against God). In fact,

Here is a list of believers who have forfeited their salvation:

Saul (1 Samuel 16:14) (1 Samuel 31:4)
Demas (2 Timothy 4:10)
The Prodigal Son (Luke 15:11-32)
Judas Iscariot (Psalm 41:9) (Luke 6:16) (Acts 1:25)
Hymenaeus and Philetus (2 Timothy 2:17-18)
Unnamed Christians destroyed by false teaching (2 Timothy 2:17-18)
Many Unnamed Disciples (John 6:66)
Some Younger Christian Widows (1 Timothy 5:14-15)
Some Christians Eager For Money (1 Timothy 6:8-10)
Ananias and Sapphira (Acts of the Apostles 5:1-11)

And here is a list of potential fallen believers:

The Servant Who is Not Looking For Him (Luke 12:45-46)
Recent Convert Who is a Potential Spiritual Leader (1 Timothy 3:6)
The Unforgiving in Heart (Matthew 6:14-15)
Luke Warm Unrepentant Believer (Revelation 3:14-22)
Fruitless Christians (John 15:1-10) (Matthew 25:14-30)
Widows That Live in Pleasure (1 Timothy 5:5-6)
Believers Whose Seed Fell Upon the Rocks (Luke 8:13)
Believers Whose Seed Was Choked by Thorns (Matthew 13:22)
Gentile Believer Who Did Not Have on a Wedding Garment (Matthew 22:1-14) (Revelation 19:7-8)
The Potential Fellow Believer Who Erred From the Truth & Was Converted Back
(James 5:19-20)

For Jesus is the Light and we are to shine the Light of Christ within our lives. For there are those who think they can serve Jesus and also live for oneself, sin, and evil; But this is wrong, though. "For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God" (John 3:20-21).

justbyfaith · Oct 17, 2018

Jason0047 said:
If you are saying that works of faith (love) are a part of the faith, then I agree. For you can no more separate works of faith from faith than you can separate an atom with a pair of tweezers.

I am saying that love, justice, mercy, and faith all stem out of a relationship with Jesus Christ.

Bible Highlighter · Oct 17, 2018

justbyfaith said:
The tails side of the coin.

It appears you ignore the tail side of the coin because there is no need to worry about living holy or to worry about sin because you believe all sin (including future sin) is paid for. For what purpose would there to be to endure to the end to be saved if you are already secure in your salvation?

Bible Highlighter · Oct 17, 2018

justbyfaith said:
I am saying that love, justice, mercy, and faith all stem out of a relationship with Jesus Christ.

Absolutely. I agree. But this only works if a person is not justifying sin and or a gospel that makes an allowance for others to fall into thinking they can sin and still be saved on some level.

Devin P · Oct 17, 2018

Neostarwcc said:
Obviously Jesus saves as he is the only name to call upon to be saved. But what constitutes salvation? What saves a person? Is it believing in the gospel? I.E. the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus? If that's the case than Catholics and SDA's are saved. Is it believing in the Trinity? Ditto to Catholics and SDAs and other controversial groups. Is it trusting in the finished work of Jesus on the cross? If that's required for salvation than Catholics and SDAs are not saved and I believe they are so that can't be it. So what saves a person? Paul says in Romans 10:9 that if we declare Jesus as Lord and believe in our hearts that God raised Jesus from the dead than we will be saved. So it must be that every person who believes the gospel and calls upon the Lord for salvation will be saved right? Or am I missing something?

Asking for forgiveness and repenting. Simply having a change of heart, turning away from sin, to obey Him, and calling on Him, is enough. That's all He wants. For us to have a relationship with Him. For us to humble ourselves before Him, admit to Him and apologize for things we've done against Him and His ways, to ask to be forgiven, and do as He asks us. And of course, to be a light to those in darkness, and last but definitely not least, treat others as we wish to be treated.

justbyfaith · Oct 17, 2018

Jason0047 said:
Believers can fall away from the faith:

Here are several lists of verses that makes it absolutely clear that believers can fall away from the faith:

Here is a General List of Verses on How Believers Can Fall Away:

1 Samuel 16:14
1 Samuel 31:4
Ezekiel 18:24
Hebrews 3:12-14
Hebrews 4:11
Hebrews 6:4-9
Hebrews 10:26-30
Hebrews 12:15
1 Timothy 1:18-20
1 Timothy 4:1-7
Galatians 3:1-5
2 Peter 2:20-22
2 Peter 3:17
Matthew 13:18-23
1 Corinthians 10:12
2 Thessalonians 2:3

Now, do not misunderstand me, believers cannot lose their salvation (like they would a pair of car keys), but they can forfeit their salvation (i.e. they can willingly throw it away by rebelling against God). In fact,

Here is a list of believers who have forfeited their salvation:

Saul (1 Samuel 16:14) (1 Samuel 31:4)
Demas (2 Timothy 4:10)
The Prodigal Son (Luke 15:11-32)
Judas Iscariot (Psalm 41:9) (Luke 6:16) (Acts 1:25)
Hymenaeus and Philetus (2 Timothy 2:17-18)
Unnamed Christians destroyed by false teaching (2 Timothy 2:17-18)
Many Unnamed Disciples (John 6:66)
Some Younger Christian Widows (1 Timothy 5:14-15)
Some Christians Eager For Money (1 Timothy 6:8-10)
Ananias and Sapphira (Acts of the Apostles 5:1-11)

And here is a list of potential fallen believers:

The Servant Who is Not Looking For Him (Luke 12:45-46)
Recent Convert Who is a Potential Spiritual Leader (1 Timothy 3:6)
The Unforgiving in Heart (Matthew 6:14-15)
Luke Warm Unrepentant Believer (Revelation 3:14-22)
Fruitless Christians (John 15:1-10) (Matthew 25:14-30)
Widows That Live in Pleasure (1 Timothy 5:5-6)
Believers Whose Seed Fell Upon the Rocks (Luke 8:13)
Believers Whose Seed Was Choked by Thorns (Matthew 13:22)
Gentile Believer Who Did Not Have on a Wedding Garment (Matthew 22:1-14) (Revelation 19:7-8)
The Potential Fellow Believer Who Erred From the Truth & Was Converted Back
(James 5:19-20)

For Jesus is the Light and we are to shine the Light of Christ within our lives. For there are those who think they can serve Jesus and also live for oneself, sin, and evil; But this is wrong, though. "For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God" (John 3:20-21).

Scriptures on eternal security.

aiki · Oct 17, 2018

Archer_on_Fire said:
How did you realize works-salvation was false?

I know this question wasn't posed to me but I thought I'd offer an answer anyway. Hope you don't mind.

Works-salvation is false for a variety of reasons:

1.) Scripture explicitly and repeatedly denies works salvation. (Ephesians 2:8-9; Titus 3:5-6)
2.) Salvation isn't a thing we obtain, but a Person with whom we come into relationship. (1 John 5:19-20)
3.) We are justified only by the perfect righteousness of Christ imputed to us by trusting in him as Saviour and Lord. (1 Corinthians 1:30-31; 1 Corinthians 6:11; Romans 3:24; Romans 5:9; Romans 8:30, etc.)
4.) In Christ, a believer is not only fully justified (declared righteous) but also fully sanctified as well (1 Corinthians 1:2; Hebrews 2:11; Hebrews 10:14). That is, a believer's spiritual position is one of completeness (Colossians 2:10) in Christ, and it is because this is so, that their relationship with God, obtained through Christ, can never be put into jeopardy by their conduct (bad or good).
5.) Many times in Scripture believers are challenged about their sin (1 Corinthians 3:3; 1 Corinthians 5; 1 Corinthians 6:1-6; 1 Corinthians 11:18-30; Galatians 3; Galatians 5:1-15; etc.) and we are told that sin remains a struggle for all believers (Romans 7:15-24; Hebrews 5:12-13; 1 John 1:8-10).
6.) A man's works may be burned up in the Final Judgment but he will still enter into heaven. (1 Corinthians 3:13-15)

justbyfaith · Oct 17, 2018

Jason0047 said:
It appears you ignore the tail side of the coin because there is no need to worry about living holy or to worry about sin because you believe all sin (including future sin) is paid for. For what purpose would there to be to endure to the end to be saved if you are already secure in your salvation?

I am merely emphasizing the heads side because you are doing a wonderful job of holding up the tails side.

The promise of eternal security for the one who truly believes is a hope that keeps me from giving up. If I did not have those promises, I might not even try to make it to the end, I would think of it as being too hard. But because the Lord is able to hold me up according to those promises, I do not give up: I know that He is able to bring me through; when my own strength is insufficient, He holds me in the palm of His hand and doesn't let me go.

And you have also misunderstood my point of view immensely.

Yes I am forgiven of past, present, and future sin (Romans 4:8, Hebrews 9:12, Hebrews 10:14-17) but this is not a reason to live unholy; because I am born again. The Spirit of God within me motivates me to live holy and the fact that I am perpetually forgiven does not in any way make me unmotivated to live a holy life. My motivation comes from a born again heart; not the fear of losing my salvation if I were to mess up. That I do not lose my salvation when I mess up acts as a helmet on my head in the day of battle, as a matter of fact. And of course I need a breastplate also if I am not going to be destroyed in battle; therefore I seek His righteousness as armour to protect my spiritual heart and lungs.

klutedavid · Oct 17, 2018

Jason0047 said:
Not true. All sin is not the same. The Bible even tells you this fact.

"All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death." (1 John 5:17).
Yet, Romans 6:23 says the wages of sin is death.

Jesus says there is a greater sin (John 19:11). So that means there are degrees to sin. Not all sins are the same. In Matthew 12:31-32 says that speaking bad words (blasphemy) against the Holy Ghost can never be forgiven, and yet speaking bad words (blasphemy) against the Son can be forgiven. 1 Peter 3:21 says that baptism is not for salvation. Baptism saves us in having a cleansed conscience, but it does not cleanse us from the filth of the flesh (sin).

Even humans (in the real world) do not regards all sins the same. Going 5 mph per hour over the speed limit while driving is not considered the same kind of offense as say... murdering somebody.

I say this because Jesus made real world examples all the time. They are called Parables.

So Jason, are you saying you can commit lesser sin and get away with it?

Bible Highlighter · Oct 17, 2018

justbyfaith said:
I am merely emphasizing the heads side because you are doing a wonderful job of holding up the tails side. The promise of eternal security for the one who truly believes is a hope that keeps me from giving up. If I did not have those promises, I might not even try to make it to the end, I would think of it as being too hard. But because the Lord is able to hold me up according to those promises, I do not give up: I know that He is able to bring me through; when my own strength is insufficient, He holds me in the palm of His hand and doesn't let me go.

And you have also misunderstood my point of view immensely.

Yes I am forgiven of past, present, and future sin (Romans 4:8, Hebrews 9:12) but this is not a reason to live unholy; because I am born again. The Spirit of God within me motivates me to live holy and the fact that I am perpetually forgiven does not in any way make me unmotivated to live a holy life. My motivation comes from a born again heart; not the fear of losing my salvation if I were to mess up. That I do not lose my salvation when I mess up acts as a helmet on my head in the day of battle, as a matter of fact. And of course I need a breastplate also if I am not going to be destroyed in battle; therefore I seek His righteousness as armour to protect my heart and lungs.

Whether you believe you live holy or not from a regenerated heart is another matter. If a person hears your gospel message that you are forgiven of future sins, then they CAN take that as a license to sin and you will be in part responsible for making them think that way (Whether you want that to happen or not). For there are men like George Sodini who thought they could murder a bunch of people and then take their own life and still be saved (Despite doing such evils). For do you not believe that King David was saved while he committed his sins of adultery and murder?

Anyways, you can read up on George Sodini here:

George Sodini - An Eternal Security Proponent who went wrong.

Bible Highlighter · Oct 17, 2018

klutedavid said:
So Jason, are you saying you can commit lesser sin and get away with it?

You need to first answer my question on which sins you commit that you think are okay with God. I answered your question, it is only fair you answer my question now.

klutedavid · Oct 17, 2018

Jason0047 said:
No. You assume nobody can walk uprightly with God when such is not the case. The 144,000 were said to be without fault before the throne of God. In context, it mentions their good deeds like: how they were virgins, there was no guile found in their mouths, etc.

Revelation 14:

3 "And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God."

Jesus gives us victory not only on the cross by forgiving us of our past sins, but He gives us victory over grievous sin in this life.

"But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof." (Romans 13:14).

"For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil." (1 John 3:8).

"For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. " (Romans 8:13).

Well Jason, I have never met a Christian who has successfully mortified the flesh. All I ever meet are sinners in need of grace.

Have you become perfect or not?

Bible Highlighter · Oct 17, 2018

justbyfaith said:
I am merely emphasizing the heads side because you are doing a wonderful job of holding up the tails side.

The promise of eternal security for the one who truly believes is a hope that keeps me from giving up. If I did not have those promises, I might not even try to make it to the end, I would think of it as being too hard. But because the Lord is able to hold me up according to those promises, I do not give up: I know that He is able to bring me through; when my own strength is insufficient, He holds me in the palm of His hand and doesn't let me go.

And you have also misunderstood my point of view immensely.

Yes I am forgiven of past, present, and future sin (Romans 4:8, Hebrews 9:12, Hebrews 10:14-17) but this is not a reason to live unholy; because I am born again. The Spirit of God within me motivates me to live holy and the fact that I am perpetually forgiven does not in any way make me unmotivated to live a holy life. My motivation comes from a born again heart; not the fear of losing my salvation if I were to mess up. That I do not lose my salvation when I mess up acts as a helmet on my head in the day of battle, as a matter of fact. And of course I need a breastplate also if I am not going to be destroyed in battle; therefore I seek His righteousness as armour to protect my spiritual heart and lungs.

If Eternal Security was true, I would go back to my old life of sin. Everyone would eventually do that because there is no incentive to live right for God if you can just simply sin and still be saved. A person can choose a sin they really liked from their old life and still hold on to that one sin and rationalize it as being okay because Jesus paid for it. However, it is the fear of the Lord that men depart from evil.

"...and by the fear of the LORD men depart from evil." (Proverbs 16:6).

What saves a person?

justified sinner

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

justified sinner

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

justified sinner

justified sinner

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

justified sinner

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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justified sinner

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justified sinner

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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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