What saves a person?

[Archer_on_Fire]

No. I have read the New Testament many times and I am pretty sure that phrase you used is not in those verses. So I am asking you to quote the verse you think uses that exact phrase.

A phrase has to be used in a passage for it be valid? I thought comprehension was the most important thing.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

In such a scenario, salvation is not through forgiveness of sins through faith in the blood of Jesus but is based on becoming worthy of heaven whether we are forgiven or not. We would be accepted on the basis of being worthy and our former sins wouldn't matter even if they weren't forgiven because our current state is perfection and therefore it doesn't matter what we did in the past. But if we commit some minute sin in the present or the future after having been perfected, then we are in a load of deep doo-doo because now we are no longer worthy of heaven. So if we die in that state we have now been separated from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord, through things present or things to come.

And this is simply not biblical.

'nuff said!

Yes, we are told to work out our salvation with fear and trembling. This would not be the case if all I had to do was believe in Jesus for salvation. That would be too easy. That would be what most churches do already. They think they are saved by having a belief alone on Jesus. But Jesus says narrow is the way that leads unto life and FEW be there that finds it. Jesus preached many times on the necessity of living holy as a part of salvation (Matthew 5:28-31, Matthew 6:15, Matthew 19:17-19, Matthew 25:31-46). Jesus did not tell the Pharisees to ignore their immorality and just believe on Him. That is something you have to add to Scripture to make it to be true.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

A phrase has to be used in a passage for it be valid? I thought comprehension was the most important thing.

I am looking for the exact wording you used in those verses. How about just the words of how "You must believe in the finished work of the cross to be saved alone."

Try reading 1 John 1:7 again in prayer. It says you actually have to walk in the light (Abide in God and keep His commandments or love your brother) whereby the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin.

Also see Hebrews 5:9, too.

 

[justbyfaith]

Justbyfaith:

You have to convince me how it is morally superior of your position than mine to say that believers can say they are "justified sinners." This to me is starting out at an immoral position to begin with. Convince me how it is good using a real world example in saying we are evil people and how that leads us into being good guys.

From my experience in real life, if you focus on the negative or in affirming you are bad, then you are going to attract those bad things to you and make that your reality. Any hope of doing good or being good fades away into the dust.

Alcoholics join drug programs and can overcome the sin of alcoholism. This by a human program they can overcome sin. But with Jesus, He can help a believer to do so much more (See Romans 13:14, and 1 John 3:8).

When you say you are a justified sinner, you are implying that you can never truly obey God ever because you are declaring you are sinner. A person declares themselves to be a certain way based on their actions. A fire fighter is a fire fighter because he fights fires. He could be an ex fire fighter because he retired or something, but he would not currently be a fire fighter if he retired.

An alcoholic who has been clean and sober fifty years still considers himself an alcoholic and calls himself one in the context of his AA meetings.

In a similar manner, Paul said that it is a trustworthy saying and worthy of all acceptation that "Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief."

I am of the opinion that Paul wants every one of us to adopt this saying, including the part of it that admits that I am the chief of sinners. As I should say it, so you should say it.

Of course, Paul called himself the chief of sinners in the present tense even though he was formerly a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious.

So when I call myself a justified sinner, I call myself that in the same sense that Paul said that he was the chief of sinners.

See also Proverbs 20:5. For many years I sought to promote the idea of sinless perfection for salvation and came up at a dead end so many times that now I have chosen to take the opposite side of the spectrum with people who are passionate about the subject in order to draw out from them some fighting words that will convince me of the reality of the issue once again. Because in seeing that the people who normally opposed my pov as a proponent of entire sanctification were born again believers; and because I considered that Philippians 2:3 needed to be my attitude towards them, I finally realized that they were right and I was wrong: and that salvation is primarily the forgiveness of sins and not the attaining of worthiness. We will obtain worthiness when we receive our glorified bodies. But before this we are clothed in His robe of righteousness; and also we are justified as the ungodly; our faith is counted as righteousness (Romans 4:5). He forgives us, He covers our sins; and He also will not ever impute sin to us if we place our trust in His finished work (Romans 4:6-8, John 19:30).

 

[Archer_on_Fire]

Exactly. I thank God that He led me out of that type of thinking.

I am looking for the exact wording you used in those verses. How about just the words of how "You must believe in the finished work of the cross to be saved alone."

Try reading 1 John 1:7 again in prayer. It says you actually have to walk in the light (Abide in God and keep His commandments or love your brother) whereby the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin.

Also see Hebrews 5:9, too.

No one can keep all the commandments or love his brother perfectly. Hence why I trust Christ alone.

 

[justbyfaith]

Exactly. I thank God that He led me out of that type of thinking.

Me too!

 

[Archer_on_Fire]

Me too!

Honestly He's started leading me out of the works-salvation stuff recently.

 

[justbyfaith]

Honestly He's started leading me out of the works-salvation stuff recently.

That is awesome brother! You are on the right track.

 

[justbyfaith]

Jesus did not tell the Pharisees to ignore their immorality and just believe on Him.

The scribes and Pharisees were impeccably righteous outwardly.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

An alcoholic who has been clean and sober fifty years still considers himself an alcoholic and calls himself one in the context of his AA meetings.

It is a worldly program. So they are not perfect. If they have overcome their sin of alcoholism and they do not desire to drink again, then they are no longer an alcoholic. Just as a fire fighter who retires is no longer a fire fighter.

In a similar manner, Paul said that it is a trustworthy saying and worthy of all acceptation that "Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief."

12 "And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry;
13 Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief." (1 Timothy 1:12-13).

Paul is saying he used to be a persecutor of Christians and he later obtained mercy.

Also, the same chapter says:

9 "Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;
11 According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust." (1 Timothy 1:9-11).

The Law is not made for a righteous man but for the lawless and disobedient. For the ungodly, and for sinners and for anything contrary to sound doctrine.

I am of the opinion that Paul wants every one of us to adopt this saying, including the part of it that admits that I am the chief of sinners. As I should say it, so you should say it.

Of course, Paul called himself the chief of sinners in the present tense even though he was formerly a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious.

So when I call myself a justified sinner, I call myself that in the same sense that Paul said that he was the chief of sinners.

But we have the context of Paul's other words that says he is referring to his old life here when he said that. By your phrase, you are not giving that impression by such a statement. For do you believe that believers always will still sin every day and yet they are still saved? Was not King David saved even while he commited his sins of adultery and murder in your view? Would not David be a justified sinner in the present tense?

See also Proverbs 20:5.

Are you boasting?

For many years I sought to promote the idea of sinless perfection for salvation and came up at a dead end so many times that now I have chosen to take the opposite side of the spectrum with people who are passionate about the subject in order to draw out from them some fighting words that will convince me of the reality of the issue once again.

We never had the same experience. I never thought Sinless Perfectionism was a salvation issue. I understood that not all sins are the same based on what Scripture says and what real life says. But do not trick yourself into thinking grievous sin cannot separate a believer from God unless they repent of such a sin. For one of the first lies of the devil was to convince Eve that she and her husband would not die if she broke God's laws (i.e. if they sinned). The same lie is being pushed today. "....You can sin and still be saved."

Because in seeing that the people who normally opposed my pov as a proponent of entire sanctification were born again believers; and because I considered that Philippians 2:3 needed to be my attitude towards them, I finally realized that they were right and I was wrong:

But you did not have an understanding on the dark side of OSAS and the ton of Scripture verses that refute it like I have. That is something I cannot unlearn or ignore. Maybe you can do that, but I cannot ignore God's Word in what it says, friend. You would have a better chance at convincing me that rain is not wet or I don't breath air, etc.

and that salvation is primarily the forgiveness of sins and not the attaining of worthiness.

"He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me." (Matthew 10:37).

"And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me." (Matthew 10:38).

We will obtain worthiness when we receive our glorified bodies. But before this we are clothed in His robes of righteousness; and also we are justified as the ungodly; our faith is counted as righteousness (Romans 4:5). He forgives us, He covers our sins; and He also will not ever impute sin to us if we place our trust in His finished work (Romans 4:6-8, John 19:30).

It grieves me greatly that you would switch sides so quickly, but I do not think you were ever truly convinced that holiness was essential like I believed it to be. The imputation of Christ also includes walking in the light (1 John 1:7). For Christ is the author of eternal salvation to all who OBEY Him (See Hebrews 5:9). For the grace of God teaches us to deny ungodliness and that we should live righteously and godly in this present world.

 

[Archer_on_Fire]

That is awesome brother! You are on the right track.

Actually it's sister. Lol. But yes I think it's awesome too. He's using Youtube videos.

How did you realize works-salvation was false?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

The scribes and Pharisees were impeccably righteous outwardly.

But they ignored the weightier matters of the law like justice, love, faith, and mercy (See Matthew 23:23, and Luke 11:42). Jesus did not say.... "Oh hey guys. Don't worry about ignoring the weightier matters of the Law, just believe me as your Savior and I will take care of that." Jesus did not say such a thing.

 

[justbyfaith]

No one can keep all the commandments or love his brother perfectly. Hence why I trust Christ alone.

Once we are forgiven, He is able to place His love in our hearts to the greatest extent (Romans 5:5, Ephesians 3:19).

But it can never be attained to by our striving to be good. It must be utterly and completely our response to having been forgiven (Luke 7:36-50, 1 John 4:19)

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Actually it's sister. Lol. But yes I think it's awesome too. He's using Youtube videos.

How did you realize works-salvation was false?

I believe Works Alone Salvationism is false.
This is what I believe Paul was arguing against because there are many warnings against how sin can have dire consequences to our souls (See Matthew 5:28-30, Matthew 6:15, Matthew 25:31-46, and 1 John 3:15).

You do realize that if a servant is disloyal to the king, things will not go well for him, right? What happened to the unprofitable servant in Scripture? See Matthew 25:30.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Once we are forgiven, He is able to place His love in our hearts to the greatest extent (Romans 5:5, Ephesians 3:19).

Again, this is not what Scripture teaches. We are told to endure unto the end for salvation. We are told to KEEP ourselves in the love of God.

But it can never be attained to by our striving to be good. It must be utterly and completely our response to having been forgiven (Luke 7:36-50, 1 John 4:19)

1 John 1:9, Hebrews 10:26, Acts of the Apostles 8:22 and many other verses tell us that if we sin, we are not forgiven unless we repent.

 

[justbyfaith]

Actually it's sister. Lol. But yes I think it's awesome too. He's using Youtube videos.

How did you realize works-salvation was false?

I was actually thinking of it along the lines of entire sanctification. I felt that I needed to be made perfect by Christ in order to be saved.

God showed me otherwise when in my extensive time of Bible reading (very organized and thorough) I somehow came across Psalms 51:3 and Luke 18:9-14 in the same reading session! How the Lord managed to put those scriptures together in my personal reading time had to be an absolute miracle in my opinion! It opened my eyes to the fact that I am a sinner and that my only hope for salvation is the forgiveness that Christ offers; rather than what I had previously been striving for: sinless perfection in order to be saved!

 

[justbyfaith]

Again, this is not what Scripture teaches. We are told to endure unto the end for salvation. We are told to KEEP ourselves in the love of God.

Wow my friend! There are scriptures that were set there right in front of you that show you that what I said is what the scripture teaches! The verses you are quoting are on the tails side of the coin of scriptural truth.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I was actually thinking of it along the lines of entire sanctification. I felt that I needed to be made perfect by Christ in order to be saved.

God showed me otherwise when in my extensive time of Bible reading (very organized and thorough) I somehow came across Psalms 51:3 and Luke 18:9-14 in the same reading session! How the Lord managed to put those scriptures together in my personal reading time had to be an absolute miracle in my opinion! It opened my eyes to the fact that I am a sinner and that my only hope for salvation is the forgiveness that Christ offers; rather than what I had previously been striving for: sinless perfection in order to be saved!

There are different aspects of "perfect" as it is used in the Bible. To be "perfect" generally speaking is not a loss of salvation because the Bible never says that the believer who is not perfect will be cast into everlasting fire.

 

[justbyfaith]

But they ignored the weightier matters of the law like justice, love, faith, and mercy (See Matthew 23:23, and Luke 11:42). Jesus did not say.... "Oh hey guys. Don't worry about ignoring the weightier matters of the Law, just believe me as your Savior and I will take care of that." Jesus did not say such a thing.

Justice, love, faith, and mercy are all aspects of what it means to believe in Jesus.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Wow my friend! There are scriptures that were set there right in front of you that show you that what I said is what the scripture teaches! The verses you are quoting are on the tails side of the coin of scriptural truth.

I am not doubting God can work in our hearts and lives. But Scripture also says you have to endure to the end to be saved. Scripture also says you have to KEEP yourself in the love of God, too. God does not force his salvation and love upon people. We have to cooperate with God. It's synergistic.