Are we living in the last days?

1stcenturylady said:

The word is used 24 times in the New Testament.[13] Of these, six uses refer to the coming of individuals: Stephanas, Fortunatus, and Achaicus (1Co.16:17), Titus (2Co.7:6 & 7) the physical "presence" of Paul himself (2Co.10:10, Php.1:26, 2:12), and a 7th use to the "coming of the lawless one" (2Thess.2:9). The other seventeen uses refer to the Second Coming of Christ, except the one case in which it refers to the coming of the "Day of God" (2Pe.3:12, see also The Day of the Lord).

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parousia70 said:

Parousia actually translates into "Presence or Arrival"
.

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LUKE 21 MATTHEW 24 OLIVET DISCOURSE CONTROVERSY [Poll Thread]

All 3 passages ask the same 2 questions:

when? shall these be,
and what? the sign

The "PAROUSIA" in Matthew 24

Matthew uses the greek word "parousia"<4592> and is used only in this chapter of the Gospels [4 times].
It appears to perhaps symbolizing bringing His rewards to the Saints as "ousia" denotes goods, property?.........

The exact form of that word in vs 3 is used in 6 verses:
parousiaV <3952>: Matthew 24:3; Philippians 1:26; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, 8; James 5:7; 2 Peter 3:4

3952. parousia par-oo-see'-ah from the present participle of 3918;
a being near, i.e. advent (often, return; specially, of Christ to punish Jerusalem, or finally the wicked); (by implication) physically, aspect:--coming, presence........
3844. para par-ah' a primary preposition; properly, near; i.e. (with genitive case) from beside (literally or figuratively), (with dative case) at (or in) the vicinity of (objectively or subjectively)
3776. ousia oo-see'-ah from the feminine of 5607; substance, i.e. property (possessions):--goods, substance.

Mount of Olives is not shown in Luke 21.
Matthew uses the word #4930.

Matthew 24:3
Yet of Him sitting on the Mount of the Olives, the Disciples came toward to Him according to own saying "be telling! to us,
when? shall these be,
and what? the sign
of the Thy parousia<3952>,
and together-finish<4930> of the age.

In Mark 13, it shows only Peter, James, John and Andrew coming to ask Him questions:

Mark 13
3 and of sitting of Him into the Mount of the Olives facing the Temple, Peter and James and John and Andrew inquired<1905> of Him privately
4 Tell us!
when? shall these be
and what? the sign<4592>
whenever may be being about<3195> these.

Luke 21
7 Yet they inquire<1905> of Him, saying, “Teacher!
when? then shall these be
And what? the sign<4592>
whenever may be being about<3195> these to becoming<1096>?


.

1stcenturylady said:

This is from a fellow on another site - WorthyChristianForums.com, I haven't read his findings to be sure, but you can read what he says. I will, just haven't taken the time yet. From the post "the identity of the two witnesses of Revelation"

Quote: I calculate the year 2023 because of the current year we are in since creation. The Anno Mundi year is off by around 213 years. We are now in the year 5992 YB, the true year since the beginning. You can read my study on how I calculated this year here The Current Year Since Creation, and When the Sabbath and Jubilee Years Are | Wisdom of God

let me know what you think

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Thank you.

I really haven't had time to look at it seriously and I think it will take some time. To be honest. I got immediately turned off by the word airflow, in place of spirit, in John 1:32. Even the ESV has that one right. I know what he's saying and I know it's one of the meanings of spirit in Strong's, but, in those cases, I think it's an extremely bad translation. I really hope I never see that translation again. If I bought a Bible and found airflow instead of spirit, the Bible would immediately be in the trash. I really don't want to wade through that site. Can you condense your calculations? I'm a math guy, so you wouldn't have to simplify it very much.

So, Bishop Ussher was wrong? I know everyone takes his word as gospel but I've always wondered. about it. Are the spans in history and the scriptures reliable enough, especially during that 1st 2000 years from Adam to pinpoint it that accurately? Did you do all the calculating to come up with the 213 year difference or did you get it from another source?

I'm interested in this to estimate when the Appearing of Col and Titus will occur and the present Gentile church will be resurrected to the Holiest of All in the uncreated Heavenly Places. My guess is that it will occur 2000 years after Israel was set aside as a nation in Acts.

Aren't the dates in the 1st century pretty well established, by the knowledge of the dates of the reigns and deaths of the Roman and Jewish dignitaries?

All I really need to know is when the 2000 years will be up, that started in Acts 28:28, which supposedly is 63AD or 64AD. If that's so, how could it not be 2063 or 2064? To be a different date, due to error, I would think the error would have to be something that happened in the last 1955 years, and any errors before that should have nothing to do with what I'm interested in. However, since the Catholic Church was running things for most of that time, any number of intentional screw-ups could have occurred.

Sorry for my blathering.

Only time i thought i was living in the 'last days' was the run up to the day i was going to get married! Lol

parousia70 said:

So which is it? You seem to be all over the map on this...

also please respond to my post #19

Were the apostles correct in Their proclamations or perhaps you belive they were mistaken??

Here, again, is what they said:

Hebrews 1:1-3
1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds

1 Corinthians 10:11
Now all these things happened to them as examples, and they were written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.

1 John 2:18
Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour.

So I ask again, Would you agree the apostles were correct in their proclamation that "the last hour of the last days at the ends of the ages" had come upon them, back then?

or, do you believe they were mistaken?

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1 john was written in the last decade of the first century
1 John

after 70 ad

so the last hour = revelation 17:12 = last hour of the beast before the second coming like event of revelation 19 at the onset of the millennium

LittleLambofJesus said:

LUKE 21 MATTHEW 24 OLIVET DISCOURSE CONTROVERSY [Poll Thread]

All 3 passages ask the same 2 questions:

when? shall these be,
and what? the sign

The "PAROUSIA" in Matthew 24

Matthew uses the greek word "parousia"<4592> and is used only in this chapter of the Gospels [4 times].
It appears to perhaps symbolizing bringing His rewards to the Saints as "ousia" denotes goods, property?.........

The exact form of that word in vs 3 is used in 6 verses:
parousiaV <3952>: Matthew 24:3; Philippians 1:26; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, 8; James 5:7; 2 Peter 3:4

3952. parousia par-oo-see'-ah from the present participle of 3918;
a being near, i.e. advent (often, return; specially, of Christ to punish Jerusalem, or finally the wicked); (by implication) physically, aspect:--coming, presence........
3844. para par-ah' a primary preposition; properly, near; i.e. (with genitive case) from beside (literally or figuratively), (with dative case) at (or in) the vicinity of (objectively or subjectively)
3776. ousia oo-see'-ah from the feminine of 5607; substance, i.e. property (possessions):--goods, substance.

Mount of Olives is not shown in Luke 21.
Matthew uses the word #4930.

Matthew 24:3
Yet of Him sitting on the Mount of the Olives, the Disciples came toward to Him according to own saying "be telling! to us,
when? shall these be,
and what? the sign
of the Thy parousia<3952>,
and together-finish<4930> of the age.

In Mark 13, it shows only Peter, James, John and Andrew coming to ask Him questions:

Mark 13
3 and of sitting of Him into the Mount of the Olives facing the Temple, Peter and James and John and Andrew inquired<1905> of Him privately
4 Tell us!
when? shall these be
and what? the sign<4592>
whenever may be being about<3195> these.

Luke 21
7 Yet they inquire<1905> of Him, saying, “Teacher!
when? then shall these be
And what? the sign<4592>
whenever may be being about<3195> these to becoming<1096>?


.

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wow that's a vital insight

ousia is of credal importance, Christ is of the same ousia as God

parousia70 said:

John infallibly testified that THE LAST HOUR of the last days was 2000 years ago:

18 Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour.

Was he wrong?

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= revelation 17:12 = last hour of the beast before the millennium of Christ

Erik Nelson said:

wow that's a vital insight

ousia is of credal importance, Christ is of the same ousia as God

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It was Revelation 11 and 22 that helped me out on that......rewards/wages

Luke 21:23
But woe to those having in womb, and to the ones nursing in those days.
For there will be great distress upon the land and wrath<3709> to this people.

The same exact form of the word #3709 is used 1 time in Revelation, Revelation 11:18

Here is a type of His "parousia">

Revelation 11:18
The nations were angry, and Your wrath<3709> has come,
And the time of the dead, that they should be judged,
And that You should reward/wages Your servants the prophets and the Saints,
And those who fear Your name, small and great,
And should destroy those who destroy the earth.”
Revelation 22:12
“And behold, I am coming quickly,
and My reward/wages is with Me, to give to every one according to his work.

LittleLambofJesus said:

It was Revelation 11 and 22 that helped me out on that......rewards/wages

Luke 21:23
But woe to those having in womb, and to the ones nursing in those days.
For there will be great distress upon the land and wrath<3709> to this people.

The same exact form of the word #3709 is used 1 time in Revelation, Revelation 11:18

Here is a type of His "parousia">

Revelation 11:18
The nations were angry, and Your wrath<3709> has come,
And the time of the dead, that they should be judged,
And that You should reward/wages Your servants the prophets and the Saints,
And those who fear Your name, small and great,
And should destroy those who destroy the earth.”
Revelation 22:12
“And behold, I am coming quickly,
and My reward/wages is with Me, to give to every one according to his work.

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Revelation 11:18a=Luke 21:23=70 ad
Revelation 11:18b=revelation 22:12=final judgement =revelation 20:10

not sure I could prove that, but it seems that there is a gap in the verse there very reminiscent of Daniel 9:26-27???

Erik Nelson said:

Revelation 11:18a=Luke 21:23=70 ad
Revelation 11:18b=revelation 22:12=final judgement =revelation 20:10

not sure I could prove that, but it seems that there is a gap in the verse there very reminiscent of Daniel 9:26-27???

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according to the book

MISREADING SCRIPTURE WITH WESTERN EYES

Hebrew authors were more concerned with thematic similarity than chronological proximity

Matthew jumps forwards as much as two years from the newborn Christ in the manger to the wise men finding the holy family in a permanent house long afterwards

revelation 11:18 emphasizes the THEMATIC SIMILARITY of JUDGEMENT UNTO WRATH of 70 ad versus Jerusalem and final judgement as gog and magog surround the camp of the saints in revelation 20:9

Erik Nelson said:

1 john was written in the last decade of the first century
1 John

after 70 ad

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Citation?
Link?

I believe as this scholar does, that it was written about 65 AD:
Dating the New Testament - John

parousia70 said:

Citation?
Link?

I believe as this scholar does, that it was written about 65 AD:
Dating the New Testament - John

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I would agree. I think all the 12 plus Paul died (were murdered) before 70AD. I also think that Paul is talking about John in 2Cor 12:1-5. He certainly wasn't talking about himself - just reading it will prove that. If it was John, in the Spirit, at Patmos, that would mean he wrote Revelation in 43AD, 14 years before 2Cor (vs 2). This would make a lot more sense, because of early references, mainly in Paul's Acts epistles, to things in Revelation, like the last trump (7th trump of Revelation). These things needed no further explanation by Paul, since everybody had already read Revelation and knew of what he spoke.

parousia70 said:

Citation?
Link?

I believe as this scholar does, that it was written about 65 AD:
Dating the New Testament - John

Click to expand...

ac28 said:

I would agree. I think all the 12 plus Paul died (were murdered) before 70AD. I also think that Paul is talking about John in 2Cor 12:1-5. He certainly wasn't talking about himself - just reading it will prove that. If it was John, in the Spirit, at Patmos, that would mean he wrote Revelation in 43AD, 14 years before 2Cor (vs 2). This would make a lot more sense, because of early references, mainly in Paul's Acts epistles, to things in Revelation, like the last trump (7th trump of Revelation). These things needed no further explanation by Paul, since everybody had already read Revelation and knew of what he spoke.

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There is also another version of Revelation, which shows John being given the Revelation shortly after Jesus was taken up. [I may start thread on this]

New House New Stones
John in the spirit in OC Tabernacle Revelation

CHURCH FATHERS: Revelation of St. John

After the taking up of our Lord Jesus Christ, I John was alone upon Mount Tabor, where also He showed us His undefiled Godhead; and as I was not able to stand, I fell upon the ground, and prayed to the Lord, and said:
O Lord my God, who hast deemed me worthy to be Your servant, hear my voice, and teach me about Your coming........................

Tabor is also mentioned in the OT

Jeremiah 46:18

“As I live,” says the King, Whose name is the LORD of hosts,
“Surely as Tabor is among the mountains
And as Carmel by the sea, so he shall come:

Hosea 5:1
“Hear this, O priests! Take heed, O house of Israel! Give ear, O house of the King!
For yours is the judgment,
Because you have been a snare to Mizpah And a net spread on Tabor.

Mount Tabor - Wikipedia
Mount Tabor
is located in Lower Galilee, Israel, at the eastern end of the Jezreel Valley, 11 miles (18 km) west of the Sea of Galilee.

In the Hebrew Bible (Joshua, Judges), Mount Tabor is the site of the Battle of Mount Tabor between the Israelite army under the leadership of Barak and the army of the Canaanite king of Hazor, Jabin, commanded by Sisera.

In Christian tradition, Mount Tabor is the site of the Transfiguration of Jesus.



.

LittleLambofJesus said:

It was Revelation 11 and 22 that helped me out on that......rewards/wages

Luke 21:23
But woe to those having in womb, and to the ones nursing in those days.
For there will be great distress upon the land and wrath<3709> to this people.

The same exact form of the word #3709 is used 1 time in Revelation, Revelation 11:18

Here is a type of His "parousia">

Revelation 11:18
The nations were angry, and Your wrath<3709> has come,
And the time of the dead, that they should be judged,
And that You should reward/wages Your servants the prophets and the Saints,
And those who fear Your name, small and great,
And should destroy those who destroy the earth.”
Revelation 22:12
“And behold, I am coming quickly,
and My reward/wages is with Me, to give to every one according to his work.

Click to expand...

70AD.

Lost4words said:

70AD.

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Revelation also? [It is in my view]

Isaiah 61:2 [Luke 4:19]
To proclaim the year of the good pleasure of Yahweh,
And the day of vengeance<5359> of our 'Elohim, To comfort all mourners.

Luke quotes from Isaiah 61, but leaves out "day of vengeance"

Luke 4:
19 To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord.’
21And He began to say unto them — ‘To-day hath this writing been fulfilled in your ears;’

Luke 21 mentions "days of vengeance" in this Olivet Discourse verse and from what I can see, Luke is the only Gospel writer to mention vengeance.
[It is also mentioned a few times in Revelation showing how much the Gospel of Luke is tied to Revelation.] Pretty fascinating...

Luke 21:
20 ‘And when ye may see Jerusalem surrounded by encampments, then know that come nigh did her desolation; 21 then those in Judea, let them flee to the mountains; and those in her midst, let them depart out; and those in the countries, let them not come in to her;
22 for these are days of vengeance<1557>, to fulfill all things having been written.

Revelation 6:10
And they cried with a loud voice, saying, "How long, Owner/Master, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge<1556> our blood on them that dwell on the earth?"
Revelation 19:2
“For true and righteous are His judgments, because He has judged the great harlot who corrupted the earth with her fornication;
and He has avenged<1556> on her the blood of His servants shed by her.”

The Revelation of St. John is not acceptable as a source of truth. God controlled the selection of the Canon or He wouldn't have been able to preserve His Word, Ps 12:6-7. Anything left out, should have been left out. Anything not in the Canon and all oral traditions are man's "truths", not God's.

1stcenturylady said:

This is from a fellow on another site - WorthyChristianForums.com, I haven't read his findings to be sure, but you can read what he says. I will, just haven't taken the time yet. From the post "the identity of the two witnesses of Revelation"

Quote: I calculate the year 2023 because of the current year we are in since creation. The Anno Mundi year is off by around 213 years. We are now in the year 5992 YB, the true year since the beginning. You can read my study on how I calculated this year here The Current Year Since Creation, and When the Sabbath and Jubilee Years Are | Wisdom of God

let me know what you think

Click to expand...

Due to my oftentimes dense mind, I have been thinking about this differently than I should. Whether the year, 2063, is actually 2023, or not, it is still 2063 on our calendar and therefore is 45 years from today.

ac28 said:

The Revelation of St. John is not acceptable as a source of truth. God controlled the selection of the Canon or He wouldn't have been able to preserve His Word, Ps 12:6-7.

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Please reconcile these two seemingly polar opposite statements.

Anything left out, should have been left out.

Click to expand...

Are you saying Revelation should have been left out, but wasn't, even though God Controlled the selection of the Books to be included?

Anything not in the Canon and all oral traditions are man's "truths", not God's.

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Which includes, ostensibly, your post, no?

parousia70 said:

Please reconcile these two seemingly polar opposite statements.



Are you saying Revelation should have been left out, but wasn't, even though God Controlled the selection of the Books to be included?



Which includes, ostensibly, your post, no?

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I'm saying that the alternate version in your link should be eliminated (along with the entire Apocrypha), as it has no part in the canon. Also, although I know that the real version is also titled erroneously as, "The Revelation of St. John", it should be, "The Revelation of Jesus Christ", as in Rev 1:1. These titles, of course, are all man-made.

St. Chris

ac28 said:

I'm saying that the alternate version in your link should be eliminated (along with the entire Apocrypha), as it has no part in the canon. Also, although I know that the real version is also titled erroneously as, "The Revelation of St. John", it should be, "The Revelation of Jesus Christ", as in Rev 1:1. These titles, of course, are all man-made.

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Used only 1 time in the Gospels

Genesis 1:1 (YLT)

Luke 2:32
a light to the uncovering<602> of nations, and the glory of Thy people Israel.'

Revelation Chapter 1 Verses

...........................................CHAPTER 1

THE SYMBOLISM IN BOOK OF REVELATION

Revelation 1:1
An unveiling/revealing<602> of Jesus Christ, which gives to him, the God, to show to the bond-servants of Him which-things is binding to be becoming in swiftness.
And He signifies-it, commissioning thru the messenger of Him, to the bond-servant of Him, John.
Stephens 1550 Textus Receptus
apokaluyiV ihsou cristou hn edwken autw o qeoV deixai toiV douloiV autou a dei genesqai en tacei
kai eshmanen aposteilaV dia tou aggelou autou tw doulw autou iwannh

602. apo-kalupsis from 601;
disclosure:--appearing, coming, lighten, manifestation, be revealed, revelation.
601. apokalupto from 575 and 2572;
to take off the cover, i.e. disclose:--reveal.
575. apo a primary particle;
"off," i.e. away (from something near), in various senses (of place, time, or relation; literal or figurative)
2572. kalupto akin to 2813 and 2928;
to cover up (literally or figuratively):--cover, hide.

ac28 said:

I'm saying that the alternate version in your link should be eliminated ...

Click to expand...

My Link?

So I take it you don't believe in Sola Scriptura then?