We are not saved by works?

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As I said one needs to understand it. It’s crystal clear to an all Gentile audience in Ephesians chapters 1-2.

If one understands it, then one can surely explain it.

Also, giving general chapters is just sending someone on a wild goose chase. I can give you a verse by verse commentary on those chapters if you like but I don't think you would agree with it. Please be specific as to what verses exactly in those chapters actually defends your view of regeneration.
 
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3. By grace through faith...
Not sure why you insert an excessive illustration regarding salvation.
Salvation obviously isn't a license to sin .

For those who say we do not need works or holiness to be saved.... it is a license to sin. For if a person says that they are not a slave to righteousness (which is a denial of Scripture), and they believe that they are saved by having a belief alone on Jesus, then this suggests that they are saved even while they sin (while not being a slave to righteousness), right?

Do you not believe all future sin is paid for?
Do you believe King David was saved while he committed his sins of adultery and murder?
 
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redleghunter

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If one understands it, then one can surely explain it.

Also, giving general chapters is just sending someone on a wild goose chase. I can give you a verse by verse commentary on those chapters if you like but I don't think you would agree with it. Please be specific as to what verses exactly in those chapters actually defends your view of regeneration.
I tend to not replace the work of the Holy Spirit with a self made theology.

What I see on some Christian sites and self made theologies would make the likes of Wesley and Calvin blush.

We are dead, God makes us alive, we hear, we believe, we are baptized, the Holy Spirit equips us we serve obediently. And The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God.

There are no “what about’s” about that.

We are either children of wrath or children of God.
 
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Wow. What a red herring and false premise.

No it's not. If one is saved by God's grace .... truly saved by God's grace .... then no amount of sin will separate them from God.

After we are saved by God's grace, if works play a part in the salvation process (and they do), then one will try to either:

(a) Believe basic morality and believe those Scriptures that talk about how works plays a part of our salvation after we are saved by God's grace.

(b) Invent a work around to say that one is not saved by works but they are regenerated and thereby they will automatically fulfill the requirement of good works and holiness.
 
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I tend to not replace the work of the Holy Spirit with a self made theology.

What I see on some Christian sites and self made theologies would make the likes of Wesley and Calvin blush.

We are dead, God makes us alive, we hear, we believe, we are baptized, the Holy Spirit equips us we serve obediently. And The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God.

There are no “what about’s” about that.

We are either children of wrath or children of God.

But saying that God works in you to be obedient is essentially saying that works or holiness do play a part in the salvation process because you don't believe that a believer can not have the Spirit and the subsequent obedience that follows.

In other words, that is like saying gasoline is not needed for their car to run, and yet, one puts gas in their car in order to do that very thing.

Even if you do believe works do not save in and of themselves, you actually do believe works save because no believer can not have the Spirit and it's subsequent obedience that follows. Unless. Unless.... unless of course you believe that a believer can commit grievous sin and still be saved on some level. I sure hope that is not the case. However, when you tell others that they are saved by God's grace and not works, and you say nothing more, they could misunderstand you and take that as a license to sin. They could think, all I need is a belief on Jesus and I am good to go.
 
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redleghunter

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No it's not. If one is saved by God's grace .... truly saved by God's grace .... then no amount of sin will separate them from God.

After we are saved by God's grace, if works play a part in the salvation process (and they do), then one will try to either:

(a) Believe basic morality and believe those Scriptures that talk about how works plays a part of our salvation after we are saved by God's grace.

(b) Invent a work around to say that one is not saved by works but they are regenerated and thereby they will automatically fulfill the requirement of good works and holiness.
So it’s either (a) or (b)? Which you just created a false dichotomy.
 
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Geralt

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no one gets saved by "works", for works is NOT the basis on which we are judged. it is if we are RIGTHEOUS.

your buddhist guy would probably get to heaven if "works" is the basis of salvation.

thus "works" is only the "means" to become righteous, and not the reason to get saved directly (as many has mistakenly argued). But that DOESNT work, for we are ALL under sin. no one is rigtheous, not even one. that method/way is impossible. for to be RIGHTEOUS is to be 100% perfect in works, not simply doing good works here and there. its the perfect SCORE, not the effort, that counts. and that's how you get to be RIGTHEOUS before God.

therefore GOD provided a "second" method/way for men and women to become RIGHTEOUS. it is still by "works" but by another - Jesus Christ who lived sinlessly and obeyed the law 100% score. so that by FAITH in HIM, his RigHteousness becomes OUR OWN, and we ARE MADE RIGHTEOUS not by our "own" works, but through FAITH in Christ. In Christ, before God, we scored 100%.

thus salvation is by grace through faith in Christ alone.

i actually just paraphrased the entire Romans 3 for you all.
 
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redleghunter

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In other words, that is like saying gasoline is not needed for their car to run, and yet, one puts gas in their car in order to do that very thing.
Again you are creating a false dichotomy when there is no need to.

As explained to the Ephesians:

Ephesians 2: NASB

1And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— 3among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the bodya and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.b 4Butc God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— 6and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
 
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An interesting way to look at it. But if that's the case why didn't Paul say works of the law instead of works?

Actually Paul says "works of the Law" twice in Rom 3.

Romans 3:20
because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

Romans 3:28
For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.


 
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GodsGrace101

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Here's how it works. If salvation is conditional based on meeting conditions (very popular today) then people trust in their meeting the conditions instead of Christ. So Paul discourages this, having us drop our trust in self to meet the conditions (that do not exists in the first place), and trust in Christ alone. Then really good works motivated by love naturally follow.
Did you just contradict yourself in your very first post in this thread? For which I gave you a like...

First you said faith without works is dead.
Are you now saying that there are no conditions to salvation?

Works do not save...
Faith in God does.
But God has always had conditions....
 
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GodsGrace101

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Okay so this has always confused me. Maybe someone here can answer my question satisfactorily. In Romans 4:5 and Ephesians 2:8-9 Paul says that wee are saved by faith and not by works. Paul even takes it a step further in Romans 4:5 and says that a person who doesn't work AT ALL. That their faith will be counted for righteousness.

Yet in Matthew 25:31-46 Jesus sends people who do works into heaven and people who don't do works to hell. But wait a minute! Didn't Paul just say that a man who has no works will still go to heaven? Also in James 2:14-26 James says that faith without works is a dead faith. Why the contradiction in the Bible? Wasn't Paul aware that if we had no works that we wouldn't go to heaven? I'm not calling Paul a heretic but I'm calling him wrong. Because what he said doesn't match up with what Jesus says in Matthew 25:31-46! Or... Does it???
I just thought of something interesting....

First of all, works don't save. We could do all the good deeds we want to, if we don't have faith God will not recognize us. This is why we witness to those who do not believe.

AFTER salvation, works are necessary.

My thought is that Paul was trying to convey a spiritual concept, which is not easy to do -- just look at the debates on here and sometimes both are saying exactly the same thing but using different words.

Jesus, OTOH, spoke about solid ideas, except for very few times. Jesus said to DO this or BEHAVE like this, or DON'T do this...

It's pretty simple to me....WHO do we listen to?
The one to whom Jesus spoke...
Or Jesus?

This is not to say that I believe Paul is teaching something different...just that we don't really understand him well.
 
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GodsGrace101

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I've been struggling with this recently as well. What I can figure out is it must be faith from God, as well as works given from God. At least that's the trend I see in my life, both the faith and the works are from God. Perhaps Romans 4:5 is being taking out of context, but I haven't checked myself.
Romans 4:5
Jesus set a great task before us:
Our righteousness must supersede that of the pharisees.
And they tried to be perfect....

So Jesus makes it very difficult to please God...but try we must.
And where we cannot possibly reach that far, Jesus will be there to make this lack of "work" in us complete.
This is what I say:
You do your best
Jesus does the rest

Also, this verse would seem to contradict those who say that faith MUST produce works. Can we think of anyone who might have faith, but cannot have works??
 
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GodsGrace101

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Paul is fighting against "Works Alone Salvationism" (without God's grace) and or in going trying to be saved by obeying the Law of Moses. Just read the context when you read Romans and Galatians and it is all too clear to see. For obviously God's grace was never meant to be a license to sin or a get out of hell jail free card (See Jude 1:4 NIV). We actually have to be faithful to God and live for Him as a part of salvation. If not, then believers can be axe murdering rapists and God does not really care and will save us regardless. But if this is the case, then why doesn't God save everyone? Does a belief alone really make a person morally better? No. This is why faith and works go hand and in hand. Over and over in your New Testament, you cannot escape those verses that should haunt you in the night that talk about how if you live one way, you are going to die, but if you live another way, there is life and peace (See Romans 8:13). For we are told to work out our salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12). Why all the trembling if it is not talking about fear? Hebrews 5:9 says that Christ is the author of eternal salvation to all who OBEY Him.



This is statement is actually self refuting. The fact that we will be judged by our works prove that salvation does also include works as a part of the salvation process. After we are saved by God's grace, works (Sanctification) also save.

2 Thessalonians 2:13 is a verse you will have to deny (among many).

"...God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:" (2 Thessalonians 2:13).​

So God has chosen you to salvation through:

(a) Belief of the truth (i.e. Jesus is the truth - John 14:6).
(b) Sanctification of the Spirit.​

Now, you automatically assume nobody can live righteously and so therefore see something in Scripture that is not there. If Scripture is as you say, then we would not be judged by our works but we would be judged by a belief alone. But nowhere do we see such a thing in Scripture.
Great post, as usual.

Could I dumb it down?

Faith alone.........no salvation
Works alone.......no salvation
 
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GodsGrace101

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Paul does not say that. What he is saying is nothing we do saves us.

Works do not save us but we will be judged by our works. Does that make sense?
I agree with @Jason0047 in post no. 63; however, I DO understand what you're saying.

No amount of works without faith will save a person.
God requires us to have faith in Him from the beginning of time.
Romans 1:19...

If a person does not have faith, he will be judged on that alone.

WE, however WILL BE judged by our works....We Christians.
After salvation, works do save us in addition to faith...
Why? Because if we do not have works, it shows that there's a problem. Maybe we're not saved...maybe we don't trust God...maybe we refuse to obey Him.

All of the above will require some kind of judgement.

The lost are already judged.
John 3:18
 
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Dave L

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Did you just contradict yourself in your very first post in this thread? For which I gave you a like...

First you said faith without works is dead.
Are you now saying that there are no conditions to salvation?

Works do not save...
Faith in God does.
But God has always had conditions....
Faith produces works. If biblically sound works do not follow, you haven't genuine faith.
 
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So it’s either (a) or (b)? Which you just created a false dichotomy.

No, I did not create a false dichotomy.
You can compare this using other real world things.

An alcoholic can deny they have a drinking problem while they still drink. They can say that drinking is not what really causes them to drink. They may point to other reasons, but it does not negate the fact that alcohol also plays a factor in their drinking, too. They are drinking because it gives them pleasure and makes them forget about the bad things in life.

You want works to be a part of the equation of salvation by saying "regeneration," but then you contradict yourself and say that works are not a part of salvation. This is double speak or a contradiction. If works in no way plays a part in salvation whatsoever than no amount of bad works or sin or lack of good works can separate a person from God. In other words, if you believe don't believe this, then you need to say something to the contrary.
 
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Again you are creating a false dichotomy when there is no need to.

As explained to the Ephesians:

Ephesians 2: NASB

1And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— 3among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the bodya and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.b 4Butc God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— 6and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

Well, I am not in disagreement with Ephesians 2:1-10.

This is talking primarily about "Initial Salvation" or the "Foundation of our Salvation." Paul is saying in Ephesians 2:8-9 that we are "Initially Saved" and "Ultimately Saved" by God's grace through faith. It is a gift and not of our own doing in this view. Why? Because gifts are received. Receiving a gift is a one time event; Or do you believe you keep receiving His gift over and over and over every day? In fact, a person can forfeit their gift by having a lack of being responsible with their gift. A person may receive a car as a free gift, but if they run red lights all the time, and they drive drunk 24/7, and or they hit pedestrians, they are not going to have their gift for too long. Paul is saying we are not saved by "Works Alone" and nor were we saved by works alone when we first came to the faith (that did not include God's grace). In the book of Galatians, Romans, and Corinthians Paul talked about how we are not saved by going back to the Old Law to be saved through a person thinking they needed to be first circumcised in order to be right with God. Paul is saying in Ephesians 2:10 that works follow God's saving grace through faith. It's not the other way around. We do not put the cart before the horse otherwise salvation would be by works. or by "Works Alone" (without God's grace). For "Works Alone" (without God's grace) does not save. That is what he is saying here.

How do we know it is talking primarily about "Initial Salvation"?

Ephesians 2:1 - Christ quickened us (a one time event) when we were dead in trespasses and sins (Meaning when we first accepted Him of our own free will by His drawing or call, i.e. by "Prevenient Grace", the Lord transformed us spiritually and gave us a new heart with new desires).

Ephesians 2:2-3 talks about our old life of sin.

Ephesians 2:4-5 talks about how God saves us by His mercy when we used to be dead in trespasses and sins and it mentions again how God quickens us by Christ (a one time event).

Ephesians 3:17 says, "That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,"

So Paul is making a case that a believer needs to first have Christ dwell in their hearts by faith so that they can be rooted and grounded in love and this would not be by "Works Alone" as the root or ground for the basis of our faith. God's grace through faith and in seeking His mercy is what first saves and ultimately saves us. For if a believer sins again, do they do a good work to get saved again? No. If a believer commits a serious grievous sin like say.... "adultery" are they saved while doing this? No. They need to confess of this sin in order to be forgiven of this sin (See 1 John 1:9, 1 John 2:1). Hence, why we are ultimately saved by God's grace and mercy. But this confession of sin is in view of forsaking sin and not a mere paying of lip service with no real change in one's life (See 1 John 1:7, Proverbs 28:13, Matthew 12:41, cf. Jonah 3:6-10).

Paul is not saying we are saved by God's grace no matter what we do. Paul tells us in the beginning of the chapter this:

"According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:" (Ephesians 1:4).

One is not living holy if they say they can sin and still be saved on some level and one is not living holy if their words can potentially lead others to falsely be misled into thinking they can sin and still be saved by a message that says we are not saved by works.

Paul said elsewhere we are saved by works (i.e. works of faith that comes after God's saving grace).

"For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live." (Romans 8:13).

"They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16).

"If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing, "(1 Timothy 6:3-4).

Important Note: James says, "...God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble." (James 4:6).

“...God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth” (2 Thessalonians 2:13).

"If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha." (1 Corinthians 16:22).

Important Note: Jesus says, "If ye love me, keep my commandments." (John 14:15). So if we are not loving in the way Jesus says by keeping His commandments (i.e. New Testament commandments and not the OT ceremonial laws, like observing the Saturday Sabbath, etc.), Paul is saying that we are accursed (or Anathema). For we cannot just love our own way. We have to love in the way that Jesus tells us to love Him; Otherwise we are just doing our own thing.

“For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.” (Romans 11:21-22).

“Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.” (Philippians 2:12).

“...And having become servants of God, ye have your fruit unto holiness and the end, everlasting life.” (Romans 6:22).
 
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