WHO DO YOU FOLLOW THE TRADITIONS OF MEN OR THE WORD OF GOD (JESUS)?

LoveGodsWord · Sep 26, 2018

Jason0047 said:
I am very familiar with this verse. Jesus did not come to destroy the Law in the sense of God's laws in general, but he came to fulfill the Old Law into it's true intended purpose with the laws given to use within the New Covenant. The laws in the New Covenant are superior. It focuses heavily on loving God and loving your neighbor, forgiveness, helping the poor, spreading the good news of our Savior Jesus, living a selfless life, turning the other cheek instead of an eye for an eyes, loving your enemies, etc.

Hello Jason, why do you try and separate God's 10 Commandments from LOVE when God's LAW is the very expression of what LOVE is?

IS LOVE SEPARATE TO GOD'S LAW (10 COMMANDMENTS)?

Let's look at the scriptures...

Jesus says in MATTHEW 22...

MATTHEW 22:36-40
[36] Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
[37], Jesus said to him, You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.
[38], This is the first and great commandment.
[39], And the second is like to it, You shall love your neighbour as yourself.
[40], ON THESE TWO COMMANDMENTS HANG ALL THE LAW AND THE PROPHETS.

NOTE: Jesus when asked this question from the Lawyer is quoting from Deuteronomy 6:5 and Leviticus 19:18. Finishes by saying that on the two great commandments of LOVE hang all the law and the prophets.

What does v40 mean?

LUKE 10:25-28
[25], And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tested him, saying, Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
[26], He said unto him, what is written in the law? how read you?
[27], And he [the Lawyer] answering said, You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your strength, and with all your mind; and your neighbour as yourself.
[28], And he said unto him, you have answered right: this do, and you shall live.

NOTE: The lawyer knew what it means to love God and love his neighbore. How? Notice the question that the lawyer starts os by asking Jesus; "WHAT SHALL I DO TO INHERIT ETERNAL LIFE?". Now notice that the very same question is asked again and look how Jesus answers...

MATTHEW 19:16-19
[16], And, behold, one came and said to him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
[17], And he said to him, Why call you me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but IF YOU WILL ENTER INTO LIFE, KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS.
[18], He said to him, Which? Jesus said, YOU SHALL DO NO MURDER, YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, YOU SHALL NOT STEAL, YOU SHALL NOT LIE, [19], HONOR YOUR FATHER AND MOTHER; and you shall love your neighbour as yourself.

NOTE: Notice in that the question from the rich young ruler is the very same question as asked by the lawyer "WHAT SHALL I DO TO INHERIT ETERNAL LIFE?" but both were answered by Jesus in a different way. When the Lawer asked the question he answered his own question by saying LOVE to GOD and LOVE to his neighbor (from Deuteronomy 6:5; Leviticus 19:18). Jesus said he answered correctly. When the rich yound ruler asked the same question Jesus answered by saying keep the 10 Commandments and starts out quoting them as his duty of LOVE to his neighbor.

Is this a contradiction of scripture? In no way the answer has already been given in MATTHEW 22:36-40. ON THESE TWO COMMANDMENTS (LOVE TO GOD and LOVE TO MAN) HANG ALL THE LAW AND THE PROPHETS.

When we LOVE GOD and our NEIGHBOUR it is expressed through our actions.

If we LOVE our neighbor...

* We will honor our parents (Exodus 20:12)
* We will not kill them (Exodus 20:13)
* We will not commit adultery with thier spouse (Exodus 20:14)
* We will not steal from them (Exodus 20:15)
* We will not lie to them (Exodus 20:16)
* We will not covet what they own (Exodus 20:17)

If we LOVE our God...

* We will not have other Gods (Exodus 20:3)
* We will not make idols of anything in life and worship them (Exodus 20:4-6)
* We will not take his name [follow] him in vain (Exodus 20:7)
* We will remember his Sabbath day and keep it holy (Exodus 20:8-11)

ON THESE TWO COMMANDMENTS [OF LOVE] HANG ALL THE LAW AND THE PROPHETS.

PAUL understood what JESUS was talking about...

ROMANS 13:8-10
[8], Owe no man anything, but to love one another: for he that loves another has fulfilled the law. [9], For this, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not kill, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness, You shall not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is summed up in this saying, namely, You shall love your neighbor as yourself. [10], Love works no ill to his neighbor: therefore, love is the fulfilling [DOING] of the law.

Notice what PAUL says here? LOVE is fulfilling [doing] God's Commandments. God's Commandments or duty towards your neighbor is summed up as you shall LOVE your neighbor as yourself v9. [On these two commandments hang ALL THE LAW and the prophets Matthew 22:40].

PAUL agrees with Jesus that if you LOVE you will fulfill God's LAW. What about JAMES?

JAMES 2:8-12
[8] If you fulfill the royal law according to the scripture, You shall love your neighbor as yourself, you do well: [9], But if you have respect to persons, you commit sin, and are convicted of the law as transgressors. [10], For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. [11], For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if you commit no adultery, yet you kill, you are become a transgressor of the law. [12], So speak, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

James is using the second great commandment of LOVE which hangs all the commandments of our duty of love to our neighbour and quotes the commandments showing our duty towards our neighbor. This is why Jesus says “On these two commandments hang ALL THE LAW and the prophets” Matthew 22:40. and again..

JOHN 14:15 [15], IF YOU LOVE ME KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS.

You cannot separate LOVE from God’s LAW. Love is the FULFILLING of it and is demonstrated by OBEDIENCE to Gods’ LAW as our duty of LOVE to God and man. [“On these two commandments [of LOVE] hang ALL THE LAW and the prophets]

...................

CONCLUSION: It is very clear that JESUS, PAUL and JAMES are all in agreement that the two GREAT COMMANDMENTS of LOVE that JESUS quoted from Deuteronomy 6:5 and Leviticus 19:18 were used and known in the OLD Testament scripture to sum up our duty of LOVE to God and man in the 10 Commandments.... God's LAW (Ten commandments) is not separated from LOVE it demonstrates it. You cannot have LOVE without fulfilling God's Ten Commandments. [On these two Commandments of LOVE hang all the LAW and the prophets].

You CANNOT separate God's 10 COMMANDMENTS from LOVE because the FULFILLING of God's 10 COMMANDMENTS are the very expression of what LOVE is. God is LOVE and whosoever LOVES is born of God.

Hope this helps. :wave:

LoveGodsWord · Sep 26, 2018

@EVERYONE, sorry all if I have not responded please forgive me as I am way behind on my posting. I will try and catch up latter. Thanks everyone for your comments and posts. It is interesting to see how others view God's WORD.

May God bless you all as you seek him through his WORD

LoveGodsWord · Sep 26, 2018

Last post as this is back on topic in regards to following the teachings and traditions of men or the WORD of God who should we choose?

Can anyone please show me where in all the bible does is say (SOLA SCRIPTURA; Scripture only please)...

1. That God's 4th commandments 7th day Sabbath has been abolished?

2. That Jesus is a Sabbath?

3. The Sabbath (seventh day) was ever changed from the seventh to the first day of the week?

4. Where we are told to keep the first day of the week holy?

5. Where the first day of the week (Sunday) is ever called a holy day?

6. That says that Jesus ever kept the first day (Sunday)?

7. That tells us to keep the first day in honour of the resurrection of Christ?

8. Where the first day is ever given any sacred name?

9. That affirms that any of the apostles ever kept the first day as the Sabbath?

10. From any apostolic writings that authorizes Sunday observance as the Sabbath of God?

11. Where we are told not to work on the first day of the week?

12. That says the seventh day is no longer God's Sabbath day?

13. That says the seventh day Sabbath is ABOLISHED?

14. Where the apostles ever taught any convert to keep the first day of the week as a Sabbath?

15. Where the first day was ever appointed to be kept as the Lord's Day?

16. Where the first day of the week is ever called the Lord's Day?

17. That says that the first day of the week was ever sanctified and hallowed as a day of rest?

18. That says that the Father or the Son (Jesus) rested on the first day of the week?

19. That says that Jesus, Paul or any other of the apostles taught anyone to observe the first day of the week as the Sabbath?

20. That calls the seventh day the “Jewish Sabbath” or one text that calls Sunday the “Christian Sabbath”?

21. Telling man to keep the first day of the week holy or to worship or rest on the first day of the week?

22. Authorizing anyone to set aside God's Sabbath and observe any other day?

23. Showing any of the apostles keeping the first day of the week as the Sabbath?

24. Authorizing someone to set aside the fourth Commandment and observe any other day of the week?

25. Where any apostle taught us to keep the first day of the week as the Sabbath?

26. Declaring that the seventh day is no longer the Eternal Sabbath day?

27. Where Sunday is now appointed to be kept as the New Testament Sabbath or holy day?

...................

Something to think about here because we are all accountable to God come judgment day where we will all be judged by the Word of God (John 12:47-48).

God's Word makes it very clear that if we follow the teachings of men over the Word of God we are not following God...

MATTHEW 15:3-9 [3],
[3], But he answered and said unto them, Why do you also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?
[4], For God commanded, saying, Honor your father and mother: and, He that curses father or mother, let him die the death.
[5], But you say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift devoted to God, whatsoever you might have received from me;
[6], And honors not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have you made the commandment of God void by your tradition.
[7], You hypocrites, well did Isaiah prophesy of you, saying,
[8], These people draw near unto me with their mouth, and honor me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
[9], But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

If we are KNOWINGLY breaking ANY of God's commandments we are not worshipping God.

Look forward to your thoughts...

God's blessings until latter

Hazelelponi · Sep 26, 2018

And here I was thinking I was especially verbose. Glad to see I'm not.

At any rate I didn't realize this was about observance of the sabbath.

The Apostles worshipped at the Temple on Saturdays because the Temple was still in existence. (not really a difficult concept to wrap your head around..) that's where the Jews were on Saturday, those Jews they were trying to convert and convince of the Messiah.

Acts 20:7 wasn't a mere supper.. It's was the breaking of bread we are commanded to, as followers of Christ. And it was on the first day.

Jesus, as you so aptly pointed out, is what the Sabbath was pointing to all along... our rest from the works of the law, our salvation through Christ our Lord.

Its not a day, the day was a type of Christ. A reminder always that there was a rest to be had. Salvation in Christ our Lord.

After the destruction of the Temple, there was no more old covenant.. it was the final end of the old, and ushered in the New Covenant era. The promised messianic age.

Now we only meet on the Lord's day, the first day of the week.

Barney2.0 · Sep 26, 2018

The Sabbath is the only part of the Ten Commandments which may be revised, as its ceremonial. The purpose of the Sabbath however is still continued in the New Covenant which is to set a day aside for worship, this now became Sunday according to the early Church. The Sabbath was made for man not man for the Sabbath.

Natsumi Lam · Sep 26, 2018

Jason0047 said:
No. Not keeping His commandments relates to our salvation.

John 15:10 says that if we keep His commandments we abide in his love.

John 15:6 says, "If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned."

Yes it does relate. I mentioned in an earlier post that it is about the relationship.

This will lead to the OSAS conversation again if you are saying that keeping the commandments, once you are saved, is a requirement to maintain salvation.

Natsumi Lam · Sep 26, 2018

Al Masihi said:
The Sabbath was made for man not man for the Sabbath.

Yep yep

Natsumi Lam · Sep 26, 2018

Hazelelponi said:
At any rate I didn't realize this was about observance of the sabbath.

I know :/

Albion · Sep 26, 2018

LoveGodsWord said:
In times of ignorance God winks at. No one is suggesting that the Protestant churches simply went along with with the RCC taught. Perhaps they did not know any better at the time.

Those two sound like the same thing.

The second of which also doesn't seem to be significantly different from what you said earlier in the discussion.

lsume · Sep 26, 2018

LoveGodsWord said:
Hello brother lsume, nice to meet you here and thankyou very much for your testimony with us all. You are correct all we can do without Jesus is sin [break his commandments] because we are all sinners in need of a Saviour. Praise God that we have a Saviour! Thanks for sharing with us.

Thank you Brother.

bling · Sep 26, 2018

LoveGodsWord said:
Last post as this is back on topic in regards to following the teachings and traditions of men or the WORD of God who should we choose?

Can anyone please show me where in all the bible does is say (SOLA SCRIPTURA; Scripture only please)...

1. That God's 4th commandments 7th day Sabbath has been abolished?

2. That Jesus is a Sabbath?

3. The Sabbath (seventh day) was ever changed from the seventh to the first day of the week?

4. Where we are told to keep the first day of the week holy?

5. Where the first day of the week (Sunday) is ever called a holy day?

6. That says that Jesus ever kept the first day (Sunday)?

7. That tells us to keep the first day in honour of the resurrection of Christ?

8. Where the first day is ever given any sacred name?

9. That affirms that any of the apostles ever kept the first day as the Sabbath?

10. From any apostolic writings that authorizes Sunday observance as the Sabbath of God?

11. Where we are told not to work on the first day of the week?

12. That says the seventh day is no longer God's Sabbath day?

13. That says the seventh day Sabbath is ABOLISHED?

14. Where the apostles ever taught any convert to keep the first day of the week as a Sabbath?

15. Where the first day was ever appointed to be kept as the Lord's Day?

16. Where the first day of the week is ever called the Lord's Day?

17. That says that the first day of the week was ever sanctified and hallowed as a day of rest?

18. That says that the Father or the Son (Jesus) rested on the first day of the week?

19. That says that Jesus, Paul or any other of the apostles taught anyone to observe the first day of the week as the Sabbath?

20. That calls the seventh day the “Jewish Sabbath” or one text that calls Sunday the “Christian Sabbath”?

21. Telling man to keep the first day of the week holy or to worship or rest on the first day of the week?

22. Authorizing anyone to set aside God's Sabbath and observe any other day?

23. Showing any of the apostles keeping the first day of the week as the Sabbath?

24. Authorizing someone to set aside the fourth Commandment and observe any other day of the week?

25. Where any apostle taught us to keep the first day of the week as the Sabbath?

26. Declaring that the seventh day is no longer the Eternal Sabbath day?

27. Where Sunday is now appointed to be kept as the New Testament Sabbath or holy day?

...................

Something to think about here because we are all accountable to God come judgment day where we will all be judged by the Word of God (John 12:47-48).

God's Word makes it very clear that if we follow the teachings of men over the Word of God we are not following God...

MATTHEW 15:3-9 [3],
[3], But he answered and said unto them, Why do you also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?
[4], For God commanded, saying, Honor your father and mother: and, He that curses father or mother, let him die the death.
[5], But you say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift devoted to God, whatsoever you might have received from me;
[6], And honors not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have you made the commandment of God void by your tradition.
[7], You hypocrites, well did Isaiah prophesy of you, saying,
[8], These people draw near unto me with their mouth, and honor me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
[9], But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

If we are KNOWINGLY breaking ANY of God's commandments we are not worshipping God.

Look forward to your thoughts...

God's blessings until latter

Sabbath Worship

I fully believe we should all keep all Sabbaths, but can never get answers from those that believe in Saturday worship only the answers to my questions:

1. Is a Sabbath a Saturday or is Saturday a Sabbath with other days also Sabbaths like: Passover and the day of Atonement and every day in the year of Jubilee?

2. Are Christians today to be like the regular Jews of the Old Testament or are we to be like the priestly tribe of the Old Testament?

3. Are Christians today to be that nation of priests (Ex. 19:6, 1 Peter 2:9) and not just a Jewish like nation?

4. Did the Priests offer up even more sacrifices and were they doing more worshipping activities (some might describe as work) on the Sabbaths? If so were the Priests keeping the Sabbath Rest?

5. Is worship to God ever “work” by God’s definition?

6. We know van worship is offering up to God obedience to man’s commands, so could righteous worship be the offering up to God, obedience to God’s commands?

7. If Christians are Priests, the temple of God, carrying the altar with them (cross), and constantly offering up themselves as a living sacrifice then: when are Christians not worshipping and should they ever stop?

8. Did Christ expand the Old Testament commands to include our thoughts and lots more actions?

9. For the Priests what is the Sabbath Rest and so what is the Sabbath Rest to be for Christians?

10. Some of the Jewish scholars prior to Christ seemed to have discussed (records are not perfect on this) that there was a coming “Age of Jubilee”, do you see that description fitting the Christian Dispensation we are part of now?

I think the priests did follow the Sabbath Rest since “worship” is not work and the priests were to worship and not work all the time (the other Jews were to support them). By increasing the commands on Christians and providing a constant partner (the Spirit), Christian’s today can be in constant worship as long as what you are doing is in obedience to God’s commands and that obedience is offered up as worship, so we are in the Sabbath Rest. To suggest today we just do “Sabbath Rest” one day a week is also to suggest the other 6 days are ours?

Natsumi Lam · Sep 26, 2018

LoveGodsWord said:
Jason your twisting the scriptures here. If you do not understand the OLD COVENANT laws how can you understand what the NEW COVENANT is?s.

Spot on

Erik Nelson · Sep 26, 2018

The definition of "Sacred Scripture" (Septuagint, Masoretic, other) is itself a tradition of men

You must make a decision, what group of people to trust, in telling you which books are inspired or otherwise

The canon you choose, then, derives from some extra-Biblical tradition you judge to be valid (e.g. because you think that group of people has been inspired & guided by the Holy Spirit)

Albion · Sep 26, 2018

Erik Nelson said:
The definition of "Sacred Scripture" (Septuagint, Masoretic, other) is itself a tradition of men

Maybe, but it is not Holy Tradition, the alleged second (after the Bible) divine revelation which the Catholic churches use to define or determine religious dogma.

I think you are referring to traditions (or one of them), not Holy Tradition. If so, there is nothing wrong with customs or anything developing over time until and if they are used in place of or in addition to the Bible when determining what must be believed.

And it is not a tradition if someone found something long ago and people since that time have accepted it for what it was shown to be.

For example, the cure for a disease was discovered by a scientist several centuries ago; we today accept that it was correct and the method of treatment does work, so we agree with that original finding. But that isn't to say that we believe it simply by--or because of--tradition!

Bible Highlighter · Sep 26, 2018

LoveGodsWord said:
4. REMEMBER THE SEVENTH DAY SABBATH TO KEEP IT HOLY.

NEW TESTAMENT REFERENCES: "For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day." (Matthew 12:8; Luke 6:5) [So the Sabbath is the TRUE Lord's Day]

First, the New Covenant (The New Contract) did not officially go into effect until Christ's death. This is obvious because Jesus said that the wine (fruit of the vine, i.e. unfermented wine) in the Lord's supper was representative of his blood of the New Testament.

”Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.” (Romans 7:4).

"But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter." (Romans 7:6).

"Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;" (Colossians 2:14).

If we were to keep reading on down to verses 16-17, these ordinances (that were blotted out and nailed to the cross) are still being discussed. So these ordinances that are blotted out would include the Sabbath days whereby we are not to allow anyone to judge us by (See again: Colossians 2:16-17). Yet, in the Old Covenant, you could judge others for breaking the weekly Sabbath. In other words, you have to read the whole of Colossians 2:14-17 to understand that the Sabbath days are the ordinances being talked about that have been blotted out and nailed to the cross. This is really that simple and easy to read and understand if you do not have a bias or agenda in not wanting to see it because you are a part of some church that disagrees with this line of thinking. Even OSAS proponents or Belief Alone groups cannot fully see this truth because they have an agenda to defend their belief over what the Scriptures say.

Second, while it is true that the Sabbath (the Saturday Sabbath) is the true weekly Sabbath at the time before the cross, that does not mean that Jesus was emphasizing the importance of how we are to keep the Sabbath commandment. In fact, you will not find any direct commandment for the observance for the Sabbath anywhere in the New Testament. Granted, while the Sabbath was in effect before Christ's death the point here is that we do not see any clear command like in Exodus 20 telling us to continue to observe the Sabbath anywhere in the pages of the New Testament. In fact, if the Sabbath was to be observed under the New Covenant, then the Jerusalem counsel in Acts of the Apostles 15 would have been a really good time to bring that point up because they were telling believers that they were not saved by circumcision and keeping the Law of Moses (as a whole contractually speaking).

As for the Lord's day mentioned in Revelation 1:10: I believe this is the first day of the week whereby believers gathered every week for collections, etc. The first day of the week was when the Lord ascended to the Father (Which would have been a Sunday). Again, do not misunderstand me here. The Lord's day was never the Sabbath. The Sabbath was always on the weekly Saturday. The Saturday Sabbath is still Saturday. But the Sabbath is not the Lord's day. The Lord's day is the day Jesus ascended up to the Father (after having risen on the Sabbath) whereby Christ had completed mankind's redemption so as to offer him the free gift of salvation. For when do the disciples observe the Lord's supper? We learn that they do this the first day of the week (Sunday), because they broke bread on the first day of the week. This breaking of the bread is the celebration of the Lord's supper (See Acts of the Apostles 20:7). In 1 Corinthians 16:22 (NASB), it says, "On the first day of every week each one of you is to put aside and save, as he may prosper, so that no collections be made when I come." When did they gather the collections? On the Saturday Sabbath? No. It was on the first day of the week (Sunday). So keeping in mind that Christ's followers gathered on the first day the week and not the last day of the week in the New Testament, and seeing Jesus makes reference to His resurrection at the end of Revelation 1 by saying "I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore," (Revelation 1:18), the Lord's day (mentioned in Revelation 1:10) is clearly the day that Christians generally gathered to break bread (in the Lord's supper) and gather the collections (that would also include a sermon).

You said:
it is lawful to do well on the sabbath days. (Matthew 12:12)

This was said before Christ nailed to the cross those ordinances that were against us (See again: Colossians 2:14 and compare with Colossians 2:16-17).

You said:
But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day. (Matthew 24:20)

This is speaking to the Jewish nation as a means to escape away from out of the hands of the Anti-christ. As I said before, the Sabbath day is still Saturday but it is no longer a binding command as a day for us to keep. It also says let not your flight be in winter, too. Does winter hold some kind of holy significance because the Israelites are told not to flee on this time? No. These are merely instructions of time on when not to travel. It does not say here, "Thou shalt keep the Sabbath to keep it holy." It's talking about of time on when to travel here. Nothing more. Of course you can make lots of assumptions on this text that are not there.

You said:
they went into Capernaum; and straightway on the sabbath day he (Jesus) entered into the synagogue, and taught. (Mark 1:21)

And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath: Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath. (Mark 2:27-28) [Notice: The Sabbath is NOT just for Jews, or Israelites, or Hebrews, or Semites (descendants of Shem), but FOR ALL MANKIND]

And when the sabbath day was come, he began to teach (Mark 6:2)

And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day (Luke 4:16)

(Jesus) taught them on the sabbath days. (Luke 4:31)

This was said before Christ nailed to the cross those ordinances that were against us (See again: Colossians 2:14 and compare with Colossians 2:16-17).

Bible Highlighter · Sep 26, 2018

LoveGodsWord said:
AFTER JESUS' DEATH, HIS DISCIPLES OBSERVED THE SABBATH:

And the women also, which came with him from Galilee, followed after, and beheld the sepulchre, and how his body was laid. And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments; and rested the sabbath day according to the commandment." (Luke 23:55-56) [ This occured after Jesus' death obviously, which is when the false teachers claim the law was done away. They say the law was "nailed to the cross", but His disciples obviously didn't believe that, as we see here, they "rested the Sabbath day according to the commandment"]

The disciples did not even know Jesus had risen yet and you want to act like they know fully about New Covenant teachings at this point? Jesus did not even spend time with them for 40 days yet. Paul (Who wrote most of the New Testament books) did not come on to the scene yet. There was much the church did not know yet. So of course they are going to observe the Sabbath commandment because they did not receive that teaching yet so early on in the infancy of the church. Pentecost did not even happen yet at this point. You want the church to go from zero to sixty on New Covenant teachings overnight but it didn't happen like that. So this verse is not proof that the Sabbath commandment is binding for Christians. They didn't even know the Lord had risen yet!!!

You said:
when they (the apostles) departed from Perga, they came to Antioch in Pisidia, and went into the synagogue on the sabbath day." (Acts 13:14)

This was a missionary journey and it was a time to reach the Jews (which happened to have some Gentiles there) and this was NOT a general hanging out of believers only every week.

You said:
And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath." (Acts 13:42) [Notice: the Gentiles (non-jews) wanted to hear the word of God on the next Sabbath. Paul DID NOT tell them, "Come back tomorrow, the first day of the week, because that's the day us Christians keep." He had them return the following SABBATH]

Paul wanted the Jews to be included in that message with the Gentiles. Also, this was not a fellowship event that was for believers exclusively that happened every week with the breaking of bread (in celebrating the Lord's supper). It's a missionary journey! Fellowship was in the homes of BELIEVERS and it was for BELIEVERS only and not people who were on the fence or who were unbelievers. Unbelievers were not invited in the fellowship of believer's homes. This is confusing in your mind because you see church today as fellowship between unbelievers and believers in the same building. But back in the NT, it was believers ONLY that met in each others homes. When they went out to evangelize, they went many times two by two and they went door to door to evangelize or to speak in synagogues or preach in public places, etc. So this was Paul's first missionary journey and it was not a gathering of believers. Unbelievers were not called to fellowship with believers on the first day of the week. It was only believers. For what fellowship does light have with darkness?

You said:
And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God. (Acts 13:44)

Again, this was ministry and not fellowship. The synagogue was not Christian but it was Jewish. This was Paul's FIRST missionary journey! Do you honestly think he ran into a Christian church on his first missionary journey? We see nothing about the building of Christian synagogues back in the early days of the church. All the synagogues back in those days were Jewish.

You said:
For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day. (Acts 15:21)

In Acts of the Apostles 15: The point at the Jerusalem counsel was the inclusion of the Gentiles in God's plan of redemption and it was about refuting "Circumcision Salvationism" and in trying to be wrongfully saved by following all of the Laws of Moses (All 613 commandments) (See Acts of the Apostles 15:1, Acts of the Apostles 15:5, Acts of the Apostles 15:24). The reason why James says what he does in Acts of the Apostles 15:21 is that there are certain laws in the Law of Moses that have not changed (in the New Covenant) since the preaching of the Law of Moses in Jewish synagogues. But they also say that to be circumcised to be saved was not true and they were saying to believers that they were not to follow the whole of the Law of Moses so as to be saved, too. Certain Jews were saying that Christians needed to circumcised and follow the Laws of Moses and this counsel was saying that they did not need to do that. Only certain laws were being emphasized that Christians were to keep (which was the custom from of Old) like:

1. Abstain from meats offered to idols,
2. Abstain from blood,
3. Abstain from things strangled,
4. Abstain from fornication.
(See Acts of the Apostles 15:28-29).

You said:
And on the sabbath we went out of the city by a river side, where prayer was wont to be made. (Acts 16:13)

This was again a missionary event of trying to evangelize others and it not a fellowship group meet up among believers only that we see in believer's homes in Scripture.

You said:
And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures. (Acts 17:2)

Again, this is a missionary event to reach the lost and it not fellowship among believer's only.

You said:
And he reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks. (Acts 18:4)

He was on a missionary journey and was in a Jewish synagogue and not a Christian church! Nor was this the home of fellowship among believer's only. Believers did not gather the first day of the week in each others homes along with unbelievers. Your thinking of the modern day version of church (that is an unbiblical form of fellowship) that did not exist at the time of the early church.

You said:
For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works. (Hebrews 4:4) [See Ephesians 5:1 where it states that we are to be imitators of God.]

But God blotted out those ordinances that were against us and nailed them to the cross (Colossians 2:14). When one keeps reading these ordinances are explained. The Sabbath days are mentioned as these ordinances. So the Sabbath day is blotted out and nailed to the cross. This is why Paul says we are not to allow anyone to judge us according to Sabbath days because they no longer are a binding command for believers anymore. The New Covenant changed the Law (See Hebrews 7:12).

You said:
There remaineth therefore a SABBATH Rest [See margin: Greek word is "Sabbatismos" which means "Sabbath-keeping"] to the people of God." (Hebrews 4:9)

The "rest" being spoken of in Hebrews 4 is salvation in Jesus and it is not talking about the 4th commandment in the 10 commandments given to Moses. I will try and find my commentary again on this (and post it in a separate post).

You said:
For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain. And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD." (Isaiah 66:22-23) [I realize this is an OT scripture, BUT as you can clearly see here, this is dealing with the NEW heavens and earth (after Christ's return) and it states that ALL shall keep the Sabbath then.

First, it needs to be said that there are two "New Heavens and New Earths." The first one is the Millennium or the 1,000 year reign of Christ (Which is mentioned in Isaiah 65:15-25). The second "New Heavens and New Earth" is mentioned in Isaiah 66:22-24 and Revelation 22:1-5 (Which is the final resting place for the people of God for all eternity). For if you were to compare the two, they are not the same. They may have the same name, but that does not mean they are the same. There are many homonyms in Scripture or things with the same name that are different from each other. For example: In the Old Testament, "sons of God" can refer to angels. In the New Testament, it refers primarily to believers. The context determines it's use.

Second, just because we see believers worshiping from one new moon to another and from one Sabbath to another does not mean that the Old Laws on the Sabbaths and the New moons are still in effect for New Covenant believers. I imagine God's people will be worshiping the Lord almost 24/7 in the final New Heavens and New Earth not just on specific days. To me it sounds like it is from one point in period of time they are worshiping to another and it is not just on those specific days only. Christ will be living in reigning during for all time! Who would not want to go and worship Christ every day?

It seems quite preposterous, that God would give the seventh day Sabbath to mankind at creation (Genesis 2:1-3),

Nowhere does it command us to keep the Sabbath in these verses. It merely talks about how God rested on these days. No command like in Exodus 20 was given here at this point. That would be your imagination working overtime thinking that such a thing was said here. Prior to the event at Exodus, while men may have rested following God's example, we see no 4th command in Exodus 20 actually given. One can only make assumptions that there was a command here when none is actually stated.

re-introduce it to Israel BEFORE Sinai - after they lost sight of it in captivity (Exodus 16:4-23; 27-29)

Nowhere is it ever stated the Israelites lost sight of the keeping the Saturday Sabbath. Yes, the Saturday Sabbath was introduced a little early before Sinai, but nothing is said that the Sabbath was kept beforehand or was commanded.

codify it at Sinai (Exodus 20:1-17) having all His people observe it, including Christ,

While Christ did keep the Saturday Sabbath, this was so as to fulfill the Old Law (or the Old contract). Again, we need to see a very clear cut and specific command given to us in the New Testament like in Exodus 20 for us to follow the 4th day commandment. But on the contrary, Colossians 2:14-17 says that this was an ordinance that has been blotted out and nailed to the cross (Whether you want to accept that truth or not).

You said:
then change it to Sunday, just to change it back to Friday sunset - Saturday sunset.

The Sabbath was not changed to Sunday, but Christians do gather on the first day of the week in fellowship among BELIEVERS ONLY and they never gathered together in each others homes on the Saturday Sabbath. It was always Sunday they gathered in honor of the Lord's resurrection and His ascension to the Father. Your pointing to missionary journeys and meetings does not count as fellowship among believers only that was regularly done in each other's homes the first day of the week.

Cis.jd · Sep 26, 2018

LoveGodsWord said:
Hello Cis.jd, I have answered your question already in the earlier post in that it is by faith I believe God has had his hand on developing the bible has his WORD that he gives to the world so that the world through his WORD might find him. It is God's WORD that he has made for mankind and is why I believe and follow it. You could also ask why do you follow the Word of God. I will give you the same answer because it is by faith that I believe it is the Word of God.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

Actually you didn't answer; you just told me that you believe it and expressed greatly but you are avoiding the point. The question is why do you believe it when it is not written in scripture?
Your whole arguments have been against tradition and how we must base things on what the bible "says", but nowhere in the bible do you see it name the 27 NT books, yet you still follow it.

What if someone else tells you that by faith, he/she believes God has had his hand on the books Acts of Pilot, The Revelations of Peter, Epistles of Clement... and by faith he/she believes that God did not have his hand in James, Hebrews, or even Matt, Luke? On what grounds/basis can you tell that person that he/she is wrong since the Bible doesn't name the books that should be NT canon?

Your reasoning: "your faith that God had his hand" has been used in altering the NT in the past.

Albion · Sep 26, 2018

What difference does it make what the books of the Bible have been titled? Take away all the names and the divisions between the verses and the numbering of them, for example, and just read it straight through. You still have the Scripture.

Cis.jd · Sep 26, 2018

Jason0047 said:
Why do we follow New Testament cannon?
Because Scripture drops really big clues that the Old Covenant (the Old contract) is no longer in effect and we are now under a New Covenant (the New contract). Snip

Yes, i do agree.. however at the end of the day, the names of the books are not mentioned. Therefore Matt-Rev being the only true canon isn't scripturally stated. Regardless of connecting verses or anything, the point is there is no scriptural statement that says these are the correct books nor the only books. Until you find a sentence in scripture that tells you the only inspired books of God is Matt-Rev you are still believing something that isn't scriptural.
In fact, there is no where in Scripture that states that Scripture is the ONLY rule of faith to be practiced. What Scripture does say is that there is more than it in 2nd Thess 2:14-15. So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by our spoken word or by our letter. So you have two. Spoken (oral) and Letter (written/scripture).
The question here is that which "Letter" is actually from the apostles because there is nothing in scripture that names the NT canon.. so where does your confirmation come from?
Your "well there is clues" is a poor answer because how many cults such as the JW's, Mormons, Iglesia ni christo came up saying that the scripture contains clues that the NT we have now is "corrupt"?

Lost4words · Sep 26, 2018

Cis.jd said:
Yes, i do agree.. however at the end of the day, the names of the books are not mentioned. Therefore Matt-Rev being the only true canon isn't scripturally stated. Regardless of connecting verses or anything, the point is there is no scriptural statement that says these are the correct books nor the only books. Until you find a sentence in scripture that tells you the only inspired books of God is Matt-Rev you are still believing something that isn't scriptural.
In fact, there is no where in Scripture that states that Scripture is the ONLY rule of faith to be practiced. What Scripture does say is that there is more than it in 2nd Thess 2:14-15. So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by our spoken word or by our letter. So you have two. Spoken (oral) and Letter (written/scripture).
The question here is that which "Letter" is actually from the apostles because there is nothing in scripture that names the NT canon.. so where does your confirmation come from?
Your "well there is clues" is a poor answer because how many cults such as the JW's, Mormons, Iglesia ni christo came up saying that the scripture contains clues that the NT we have now is "corrupt"?

Good point.

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