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WHO DO YOU FOLLOW THE TRADITIONS OF MEN OR THE WORD OF GOD (JESUS)?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by LoveGodsWord, Sep 25, 2018.

  1. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

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    PART 1

    WHO SHOULD WE OBEY GOD'S WORD OR THE TEACHINGS AND TRADITIONS OF MEN?


    The very same topics that we discuss here was also discussed in the day of Jesus. The mainstream preachers of Christ's time all claimed to be Children of God because their claim was that they were the Children of Abraham right? This was their claim to being God's people.

    JOHN 8:33-45

    [33] They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how say thou, Ye shall be made free?

    They claimed belief on the God of Abraham, they claimed to be in bondage to no man. But what did Jesus tell them...............?

    [34] Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever commits sin is the servant of sin.

    [39] They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.

    [40] But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.

    [44] Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

    [45] And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.

    There is more on this engagement between Jesus and the Mainstream God of Abraham preachers of His time in John 8.

    Certainly the Pharisees studied the bible as it existed then. AS did Jesus.

    LUKE 24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

    Yet these two factions, Jesus and the Mainstream preachers of His time had almost opposite understandings of the Bible.

    It is fair to say not all Jews of that time had the same understanding as the Mainstream Preachers.

    LUKE 1:5-6 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.

    6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

    So there seems to be a trend here.

    The Mainstream Preachers claimed to be God's people, they read God's Words, yet they "Transgressed the Commandments of God by their own doctrines and traditions." (Matthew 15:3-9)

    Yet there is no indication that Zacharias or Jesus did this and followed them.

    So we have one example of understanding that was gained by study in obedience to the instructions in God's Word, ( Zacharias and Jesus)

    And another example of study in disobedience to the instructions of God's Word. (Mainstream preachers of that time)

    There were more than just Zacharias.

    MATTHEW 2:1-2
    [1], Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king, behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem,
    2 Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him.

    Here is another example of people who had a completely different understanding than the Mainstream preachers of that time. Is it wrong to assume that they, like Zacharias, also studied in obedience to the instruction?

    And Peter, which side of this topic did he fall on?

    ACT 5:32-33 [32], And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

    [33] When they heard that, they were cut to the heart, and took counsel to slay them.

    Now why was it that the Jews sought to persecute Jesus and the prophets? It was because they refused to obey the instruction of God, and created their own instructions, and the other example did not.

    So fast forward to today. We have a Mainstream Christian teaching that "Transgresses the Commandments of God by their own traditions and doctrines."

    This is not a judgment, rather, a simple fact.

    It is Mainstream Christian Tradition to transgress God's Sabbath Commandment and replace it with the Catholic Sabbath (Sunday worship). It is Mainstream Christian Tradition to create images of God in the likeness of some long haired men's shampoo model, transgressing the first and greatest commandment.
    It is Mainstream Christian Tradition to transgress God's Food Laws, and create their own definition of clean and unclean.

    So it seems that even today, if a person studies in obedience to God's simple instructions he see's the scripture one way.

    If a person studies scripture in disobedience following the traditions and teachings of man in place of God's Word and to God's simple instructions, he sees the scripture in another way.

    I believe what Peter taught, that the Holy Spirit (Spirit of Truth) is given to those who do not "Transgress the Commandments of God by their own religious doctrines and traditions.

    But I also know from Peter and Jesus that this belief will infuriate "many" who come in Christ's/God's name.

    [23] "When they heard that, they were cut to the heart, and took counsel to slay them."

    MATTHEW 10:22
    And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endures to the end shall be saved."

    My hope is that you might consider these words and understand.

    JOHN 3:19-21
    [19] And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. (Is it evil or righteous to transgress the commandments of God by doctrines and traditions of men?)

    [20] For every one that doeth evil (Transgress God's Commandments by their own Traditions) hates the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

    Is this why the Mainstream preachers of Peters time set about to kill or silence Peter, so he wouldn't expose their transgression of God's Commandments?

    [21] But he that does truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest,.(let your light shine) that they are wrought in God.

    So a circle complete once again. Those who live a doctrine created (wrought) by God have a different understanding than those who live a doctrine created by man who follow the traditions of man. The above was shared with me recently by a friend. I hope it was a blessing to you as it was for me.

    There is nothing wrong with traditions for traditions sake. The question that needs to be considered is when is tradition wrong? God's WORD answers this question and says we must be careful placing man made traditions over the Word of God.

    GOD'S WORD ON THE TRADITIONS OF MEN vs THE WORD OF GOD

    COLOSSIANS 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

    Jesus says it this way...

    MATTHEW 15:3-9
    [3], But he answered and said to them, Why do you also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?
    [4], For God commanded, saying, Honor your father and mother: and, He that curses father or mother, let him die the death.
    [5], But you say, Whoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift, by whatever you might be profited by me;
    [6], And honor not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have you made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.
    [7], You hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,
    [8], This people draws near to me with their mouth, and honors me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
    [9], But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

    and Peter makes this statement...

    ACTS 5:29, Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.

    ............

    CONCLUSION: MAN MADE TRADITIONS and TEACHING are BAD when they lead us to break the commandments of GOD and lead us away from God's WORD. Jesus says those who do such things are not following God and Peter says we ought to obey God rather then man.

    Hope this is helpful brother. There is a time when traditions is fine as long as it does not lead someone to break God's Commandments and lead others away from God's WORD.

    .............

    THE TRADITIONS OF SUNDAY WORSHIP HANDED DOWN FROM THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH TO PROTESTANTISM (CATHOLIC CONFESSIONS).



    * Now the important question is who should we obey God or man?


    ................

    Continuing on from the OP...
    GOD'S WORD vs TRADITIONS OF MEN PART 2/2 CLICK ME

    ................

    Look forward to your comments.
     
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2018
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  2. Dan the deacon

    Dan the deacon Well-Known Member

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    As Christ was fully a man I'll choose tradition of man. A specific man named Jesus Christ.
     
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  3. TuxAme

    TuxAme Quis ut Deus? Supporter

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    God has given certain authority to men- obeying them doesn't necessarily mean that we cease to obey God. Jesus Himself said of certain men, The scribes and the Pharisees have sitten on the chair of Moses. All things therefore whatsoever they shall say to you, observe and do: but according to their works do ye not; for they say, and do not.

    And of course, no Christian rejects the teaching of the apostles merely because they were men and not God. We all acknowledge that He gave certain responsibilities (and authority) to the Twelve, so it's not as simple as to say, "Who do you obey, God or man?" because we know that certain men have been authorized to teach.
     
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  4. Dan the deacon

    Dan the deacon Well-Known Member

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    And being authorized by God in the person of Christ. We need to remember who empowered them
     
  5. ewq1938

    ewq1938 Chewbacca kree! Supporter

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    This is merely SDA traditions of man attacking non-SDA Christians.

    SDA traditions of man - it is wrong to eat any meat despite Christ eating meat and there is no such thing as Christian/NT food laws.

    SDA traditions of man - keeping the Jewish Sabbath which the new covenant does not teach.

    And a picture of Jesus does not break the first commandment. Another SDA tradition of man to teach against such a thing.
     
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  6. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

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    Hello Dan nice to see you. The JEWS also chose the teachings and traditions of men over the Word of God. Jesus said by doing this they were not following God *MATTHEW 15:3-9. Was Jesus only a man in your view or was he the loving WORD of GOD?
     
  7. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

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    Hi and welcome TuxAme, nice to see you and thanks for your comments but what if the man made teachings and traditions we receive and are expected to follow break the commandments of God and go against God's WORD? Should we then choose to keep following them or should we follow God's WORD?
     
  8. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

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    No, it really is a judgment. For it to fall into the category of following church traditions instead of the word of God, it--whatever it is--must not be verified by Scripture.

    No, that belief is held by almost all the Christian churches, whether Catholic or something else, so it is not something that only Mainstream churches (however that woul be defined) follow.

    And it is held, not because of tradition, but because the New Testament affirms 1) that we are no longer to be judged in the matter of days (or meats, etc. etc.) and 2) because the NT also explains that the day of worship -- but not the Sabbath -- was selected by the early church for a certain reason, that this was the day of the Resurrection.

    Some may have pictures of Christ looking that way; others make him appear in all sorts of other ways. But this is not a church doctrine in any case. It is not required of the people; it is simply what some artist chose to make Christ in his painting look like.

    ...which, as with the day of worship, the people of the NEW COVENANT are free to do, according to the New Testament. That being the case, it cannot be said that the church is following some tradition rather than the word of God.
     
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  9. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

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    Hello Brother ewq1938, sadly this post of yours has no truth in it at all. Do you have anything to share in relation to the OP? This is a discussion of God's WORD not mine.
     
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2018
  10. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

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    Hello Albion, nice to meet you and thanks for sharing your thoughts. This belief however is a teaching and traditions handed down to protestantism by the RCC that has lead many to break the commandments of God. How do you think this relates back to Jesus and MATTHEW 15:3-9?
     
  11. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

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    Hello, LGW!

    That is not so. The Reformation took stock of the whole of Catholic teaching and methodology, and reformed what it considered to be unscriptural. But it also retained what was judged to be not contrary to the word of God.

    The fact that the Roman Catholic Church worshipped on Sunday did not in any way keep that practice from being examined. But because it was not only in accord with the New Testament, but indeed was described in it an approved of by it, Sunday was retained.

    It is a functional myth held by the few Sabbatarian denominations that whatever the Catholic Church did was automatically retained by the new Protestant churches except for a few key disagreements, but that is contrary to the facts of history.
     
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  12. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

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    It is an interesting study of the scriptures from the OP here. In the days of Jesus it was the religious leaders of the day that introduced the teachings and traditions allowing people to break God's 5th Commandment of honoring their mother and father as long as those who did so gave an offereing to the Church. Did you notice the response that Jesus gave to them in *MATTHEW 15:3-9?

    Jesus said they were not following God if we do not follow God's WORDS. This was also repeated in JOHN 8:31-45 when the JEWS proclaimed themselves as God's people because they were the seed of Abrahm. Once again the response that Jesus gave was that they are not God's people because they are of the seed of Abraham. Jesus went on to say you are God's people only if you BELIEVE and FOLLOW God's WORD which is what Abraham did. Something to think about.

    Contrary to what you say however it is the scriptures and history together that bares the facts presented here in this OP. Who do we BELIEVE and FOLLOW today, the teachings and traditions of men or the Word of God?

    Thanks for your thoughts brother Albion.
     
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2018
  13. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

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    It may come down, then, to what we think to be the "word of God." Like most Christians, I believe that the Bible IS the word of God, divine revelation, and is our guide to belief and practice.

    Because Sunday worship is, as I said, both described and approved of in the Bible, and in the New Testament in particular, the issue is settled for me and most Christian churches. No act can be dismissed as not being affirmed by the "word of God" under these circumstances.
     
  14. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

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    For me we are in agreement in relation to God's WORD. The bible is indeed the Word of God and as such as outlined in the OP we should believe and follow it over the teachings and traditions of men that break the commandments of God as outlined by Jesus in MATTHEW 15:3-9 and also confirmed throughout the NEW TESTAMENT scriptures under the NEW COVENANT.

    For me I cannot see any scriptures in the NEW TESTAMENT that says God's 4th Commandment is now ABOLISHED and we are now commanded to keep Sunday as a Holy day. I have searched many times and cannot find a single scripture.

    Do you know where the scripture is that says God's 4th commandments is now abolished and we are now commanded to keep Sunday as a Holy day? There is no scripture that says any such thing in all of God's WORD.

    So who should we follow, the RCC as outlined in their claims in the video in the OP or the WORD of GOD? As shown earlier,JESUS says if we choose to knowingly follow the teachings and traditions of men that break the commandments of God we are not following God *MATTHEW 15:3-9.

    Thanks for sharing your thoughts brother Albion nice talking with you.
     
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2018
  15. Natsumi Lam

    Natsumi Lam Preparer of the Bride Supporter

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    Just make sure the tradition doesnt contradict the Word and does not function in the silence within the Word.

    I always say, " those who place tradition over Truth are bound to trip up"
     
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  16. ewq1938

    ewq1938 Chewbacca kree! Supporter

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    It was full of truth which is why you could not oppose any of it other than to deny anything was true in a general statement.

    You are merely using your own traditions of man to accuse other Christians of serious sins. Do you also believe Sunday worship is the mark of the beast and that Christians who worship on Sundays and not saturdays have the mark of the beast?
     
  17. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

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    Hi Natsumi Lam, so nice to meet you and welcome here :wave:.

    Thanks so much for sharing your thoughts. I like your post very much. It says a lot in very few words. I think this is the point of the OP for me. There is nothing wrong with traditional teachings as long as they do not go against the Word of God. If they do as Paul says in ACTS 5:29, we ought to obey God rather then man. Thanks for sharing
     
  18. Natsumi Lam

    Natsumi Lam Preparer of the Bride Supporter

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    As far as the OP.

    I believe it is ok to follow tradition as long as it does not contradict the Word and is not founded in the silence found in parts of the Word.
     
  19. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

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    Of course your post was opposed. You only spoke your own words over God's WORD. Did you have any scriptures to share in relation to the OP?
     
  20. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

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    Yes good comment. This is also the same view that I have as the scriptures teach in ROMANS 3:4; God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That you might be justified in your sayings, and might overcome when you are judged. It is the WORD of God that will be our judge come judgment day *JOHN 12:47-48. Nice to see someone putting God's WORD above all others. What do you think will happen if we knowingly follow man made teachings and traditions that break the commandments of God when we have a choice to follow either one or the other?

    Thank you for your thoughts here I enjoyed reading them.
     
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