Predestination

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To them, the ones that get saved are 'better learners' a Darwinian survival of the fittest intellects.

One of my favorite passages of Scripture is:

Ephesians 2:8 "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them."

Saved by grace through faith which is a gift, sovereign grace which leaves nobody room to boast, and works prepared by God beforehand, indeed, not works we choose to walk in, but works prepared by God.
 
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sdowney717

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One of my favorite passages of Scripture is:

Ephesians 2:8 "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them."

Saved by grace through faith which is a gift, sovereign grace which leaves nobody room to boast, and works prepared by God beforehand, indeed, not works we choose to walk in, but works prepared by God.
And we are His workmanship.
And it says this is not of yourself being the gift of God.

Once you put the scriptural pieces together, most all the scriptures make sense to a Calvinist.
You won't desire Christ or the kingdom, it will only be foolishness to you, if your a natural man. You must be born again. And those who are born of God, are so because of the will of God, not of the will of the man.

The only alternative is to end up distorting the meaning of the scriptures to fit what's in your noggin without revelation from God, which is contrary to by grace are you saved.
 
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Loren T.

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In all seriousness, such as the above is one good reason why I plan on never setting foot in a Pentecostal or Methodist Church again. Why would I want to be so restrained, so careful as to not let the cat out of bag, where the devil has already poisoned the minds against me, reviling me as a devil? I am not so insane as Servetus, to knowingly and actively pursue what I know will likely result in big T.R.O.U.B.L.E. Neither am I so bold as to enter a Pentecostal Church and mark up the Preachers Bible with Calvinistic notes and throw it in his face. Nah, that's just not my style or how I want to be remembered.

I never really attended at a pentecostal church, but we visited one down south kinda by accident. We meant to go to a different church. They were super friendly, even though we were not dressed like everyone else. And the music was great, southern gospel, place was really jumpin, including the pastor. I just roll with it. Reminds me of the holy roller type churches I grew up in where worship is a lot more organic and they just let the Spirit take the service where he will. I'm actually very laid back. I wouldn't join a reformed church, but would have no problem visiting and getting whatever God had for me. I've been to many churches where there was something to disagree with, but generally there is always a lot of good, too. Not likely that any Methodist or Pentecostals are going to get in your face, more like love on you and invite you back regardless.
 
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OzSpen

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But, if salvation is conditional, it is not by grace. You must turn the gospel into law for the self-righteous to keep in order to save themselves.

Dave,

That is your Calvinistic interpretation. This is God's view: 'For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people' (Titus 2:11 ESV).

Ever heard of God's prevenient graces that is available to all? See Titus 2:11 and my articles,

Prevenient grace – kinda clumsy!

Is prevenient grace still amazing grace?

Salvation by grace but not by force: A person chooses to believe

Oz
 
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OzSpen

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You cannot sing Amazing Grace without lying if you think anything you did activated your salvation.

Your statement also is a lie because Scripture clearly states: '[You] Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved' (Acts 16:31).

Any command to 'repent and believe in the gospel' (Mark 1:15) is a call human responsibility being involved in salvation. Salvation is all of God (Eph 2:8-9) but he has so made the offer of salvation depend on human responses.

He has given to all free will, the ability of contrary choice, to respond yes or no to salvation.

That's the Amazing Grace that is the truth conveyed in Scripture.

I wouldn't support it if the Bible didn't promote it.

Oz
 
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OzSpen

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Now I bet here comes the reply where we have a choice but we don’t have free will. I’m not sure how that works. If you have no free will you have no choice. Calvinism just goes round & round making absolutely no sense at all when you begin to break it all down and address the specifics. I didn’t see his post until this morning but you pretty much covered the same answers I would’ve given except I would’ve also mentioned 2 Peter 3:9 and 1 Timothy 2:3-4. If God wants everyone to repent and to be saved and we have no free will then why isn’t everyone saved?

Well said, BNR,

If God desires all to be saved and most turn away in Australia, why are they doing it when it is not God's desire for the godless to remain without salvation?

The logic is clear from Scripture and experience. All people have the ability of free choice / free will, which is the power of choosing between/among alternatives.

It happened in the Garden and it continues today when salvation is proclaimed. They accept or reject. That's the way God has planned the universe and the way to obtain salvation.

It is all covered by His Amazing Grace.

Oz
 
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Dave L

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Your statement also is a lie because Scripture clearly states: '[You] Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved' (Acts 16:31).

Any command to 'repent and believe in the gospel' (Mark 1:15) is a call human responsibility being involved in salvation. Salvation is all of God (Eph 2:8-9) but he has so made the offer of salvation depend on human responses.

He has given to all free will, the ability of contrary choice, to respond yes or no to salvation.

That's the Amazing Grace that is the truth conveyed in Scripture.

I wouldn't support it if the Bible didn't promote it.

Oz
If faith is a condition you choose to meet, salvation is not of grace = unmerited favor.
 
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Dave L

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Dave,

That is your Calvinistic interpretation. This is God's view: 'For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people' (Titus 2:11 ESV).

Ever heard of God's prevenient graces that is available to all? See Titus 2:11 and my articles,

Prevenient grace – kinda clumsy!

Is prevenient grace still amazing grace?

Salvation by grace but not by force: A person chooses to believe

Oz
You are reading free will (self righteousness) into scripture and assuming others see it your way.
 
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OzSpen

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If salvation depends on an act of the will, you believe a false gospel. The gospel is not an offer made to the self-righteous. It is an announcement of salvation for all who believe.

Dave,

You have several invalid presuppositions in this short post, as the biblical evidence demonstrates:

1. Salvation does NOT depend on an act of the will - without God's provision of salvation. All salvation is provided by God (Eph 2:8-9). God has built into all human beings the free will to make alternate choices. God's provision of salvation is never contrary to his call to repentance and faith (involving human responsibility).

C H Spurgeon, a Calvinist, wrote of the connection between God's sovereignty and human responsibility:

The system of truth revealed in the Scriptures is not simply one straight line, but two; and no man will ever get a right view of the gospel until he knows how to look at the two lines at once. For instance, I read one Book of the Bible, “The Spirit and the Bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.” Yet I am taught, in another part of the same inspired Word, that “it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.” I see, in one place, God in providence presiding over all, and yet I see, and I cannot help seeing, that man acts as he pleases, and that God has left his actions, in a great measure, to his own free will. Now, if I were to declare that man was so free to act that there was no control of God over his actions, I should be driven very near to atheism; and if, on the other hand, I should declare that God so over-rules all things that man is not free enough to be responsible, I should be driven at once to Antinomianism or fatalism. That God predestines, and yet that man is responsible, are two facts that few can see clearly. They are believed to be inconsistent or contradictory to each other. If, then, I find taught in one part of the Bible that everything is fore-ordained, that is true; and if I find, in another Scripture, that man is responsible for all his actions, that is true; and it is only my folly that leads me to imagine that these two truths can ever contradict each other. I do not believe they can be welded into one upon any earthly anvil, but they certainly shall be in eternity. They are two lines that are so neatly parallel, that the human mind which pursues them farthest will never discover that they converge, but they do converge, and they will meet somewhere in eternity, close to the throne of God, whence all truth doth spring (source).​

2. There is no 'false gospel' in God providing human beings with the responsibility to choose between alternatives when the Gospel is presented. The provision of salvation is God's doing. God has given human beings the ability to respond one of two ways. Spurgeon confirmed this teaching. So does the Bible in its call for people to repent and believe. The true gospel never states that God elects to salvation without human responding.

That is NOT a self-righteous act. It's an act for which God has made provision in the universe since the beginning of time.

3. 'The gospel is not an offer made to the self-righteous'. That's your interpretation of Arminianism. It is false. All Arminians I know affirm that 'all have sinned' and there is 'none righteous, no not one'. Your presupposition is false. Those who accept human responsibility (free will) as a response to God's salvation, are following God's orders.

Jacob Arminius believed in the doctrine of total inability. See: Do Arminians Believe in Total Depravity?
4. 'It is an announcement of salvation for all who believe'. Is that your Calvinistic statement about regeneration preceding faith?

Even you fall into the trap of what you condemned in your post, 'for all who believe'. Do they believe or does God believe for them?

Oz
 
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Dave L

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Dave,

You have several invalid presuppositions in this short post, as the biblical evidence demonstrates:

1. Salvation does NOT depend on an act of the will - without God's provision of salvation. All salvation is provided by God (Eph 2:8-9). God has built into all human beings the free will to make alternate choices. God's provision of salvation is never contrary to his call to repentance and faith (involving human responsibility).

C H Spurgeon, a Calvinist, wrote of the connection between God's sovereignty and human responsibility:

The system of truth revealed in the Scriptures is not simply one straight line, but two; and no man will ever get a right view of the gospel until he knows how to look at the two lines at once. For instance, I read one Book of the Bible, “The Spirit and the Bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.” Yet I am taught, in another part of the same inspired Word, that “it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.” I see, in one place, God in providence presiding over all, and yet I see, and I cannot help seeing, that man acts as he pleases, and that God has left his actions, in a great measure, to his own free will. Now, if I were to declare that man was so free to act that there was no control of God over his actions, I should be driven very near to atheism; and if, on the other hand, I should declare that God so over-rules all things that man is not free enough to be responsible, I should be driven at once to Antinomianism or fatalism. That God predestines, and yet that man is responsible, are two facts that few can see clearly. They are believed to be inconsistent or contradictory to each other. If, then, I find taught in one part of the Bible that everything is fore-ordained, that is true; and if I find, in another Scripture, that man is responsible for all his actions, that is true; and it is only my folly that leads me to imagine that these two truths can ever contradict each other. I do not believe they can be welded into one upon any earthly anvil, but they certainly shall be in eternity. They are two lines that are so neatly parallel, that the human mind which pursues them farthest will never discover that they converge, but they do converge, and they will meet somewhere in eternity, close to the throne of God, whence all truth doth spring (source).​

2. There is no 'false gospel' in God providing human beings with the responsibility to choose between alternatives when the Gospel is presented. The provision of salvation is God's doing. God has given human beings the ability to respond one of two ways. Spurgeon confirmed this teaching. So does the Bible in its call for people to repent and believe. The true gospel never states that God elects to salvation without human responding.

That is NOT a self-righteous act. It's an act for which God has made provision in the universe since the beginning of time.

3. 'The gospel is not an offer made to the self-righteous'. That's your interpretation of Arminianism. It is false. All Arminians I know affirm that 'all have sinned' and there is 'none righteous, no not one'. Your presupposition is false. Those who accept human responsibility (free will) as a response to God's salvation, are following God's orders.

Jacob Arminius believed in the doctrine of total inability. See: Do Arminians Believe in Total Depravity?
4. 'It is an announcement of salvation for all who believe'. Is that your Calvinistic statement about regeneration preceding faith?

Even you fall into the trap of what you condemned in your post, 'for all who believe'. Do they believe or does God believe for them?

Oz
It still comes down to grace vs works. If the gospel is conditional it becomes law and faith becomes a work.
 
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OzSpen

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If faith is a condition you choose to meet, salvation is not of grace = unmerited favor.

You keep repeating yourself. I'm not going to keep on refuting your false accusations against God's sovereignty and human responsibility - taught in the Bible and by the Calvinist, C H Spurgeon.
 
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OzSpen

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It still comes down to grace vs works. If the gospel is conditional it becomes law and faith becomes a work.

Wrong again.

You are not listing to what I write. You impose your Calvinistic presuppositions on what I post. That's called eisegesis.
 
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OzSpen

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You are reading free will (self righteousness) into scripture and assuming others see it your way.

That is your false imposition on what I've written, free will = self righteousness. Eisegesis by you again.
 
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OzSpen

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Faith is a gift of God.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,

I'm sorry to say AW that that is not what Eph 2:8 teaches. I read and have taught NT Greek. Let's check the exegesis of Eph 2:8,

Here is a technical Greek explanation from A T Robertson's Word Pictures in the New Testament for Eph 2:8,

For by grace (th gar cariti). Explanatory reason. "By the grace" already mentioned in verse Romans 5 and so with the article. Through faith (dia pistew). This phrase he adds in repeating what he said in verse Romans 5 to make it plainer. "Grace" is God's part, "faith" ours. And that (kai touto). Neuter, not feminine tauth, and so refers not to pisti (feminine) or to cari (feminine also), but to the act of being saved by grace conditioned on faith on our part. Paul shows that salvation does not have its source (ex umwn, out of you) in men, but from God. Besides, it is God's gift (dwron) and not the result of our work.​

Let's use the translation you provided:

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,

Note:
grace = charis = noun of feminine gender;
faith = pistis = noun of feminine gender;
that = neuter relative pronoun.

If 'that' was to refer to faith as a gift of God, it would need to be feminine gender for the relative pronoun to agree with its antecedent in gender. It isn't.

So, Robertson, one of the esteemed Greek grammarians of the 20th century, rightly states 'and that' cannot refer to grace or faith but 'to the act of being saved by grace conditioned on faith on our part'.

Therefore, this verses teaches as Robertson said so succinctly: '"Grace" is God's part, "faith" ours'.

God provides salvation by grace. There is no forced, unconditional election but 'faith' as our response to hearing the Gospel.

To call this self-righteousness by the recipient of salvation or to accuse Arminians of engaging in man-made salvation is false. It's a straw man argument.

Oz
 
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OzSpen

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This is a fact, free will = salvation for the self-righteous.

That's false.

I've told you that this is the biblical teaching and provided you with biblical evidence but now you engage in the use of a straw man fallacy.
 
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sdowney717

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We do respond positively to Christ, as we have heard from God, been taught by the Father, learned of Him, this is not ultimately resistable. As proof our names were written in the Lamb's book of life from the foundation of the world and so also we were chosen in Him from the beginning to be saved by the gospel. And Christ says God's will is none of all that He has given to Christ shall be lost. Of those who are saved, we were all given to Christ from before time began to be His people.

2 Timothy 1:8-10 New King James Version (NKJV)

8 Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me His prisoner, but share with me in the sufferings for the gospel according to the power of God,
9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began,
10 but has now been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who has abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel,


John 1:11-13 New King James Version (NKJV)
11 He came to His own (the jews), and His own did not receive Him.
12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the [c]right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:
13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

All that are drawn are going to hear, and all of them will learn and believe in the Son, that is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.

John 6
43 Jesus therefore answered and said to them, “Do not murmur among yourselves.
44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.
45 It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught by God.’ Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.

2 thessalonians 2
13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth, 14 to which He called you by our gospel, for the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle.

16 Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself, and our God and Father, who has loved us and given us everlasting consolation and good hope by grace, 17 comfort your hearts and establish you in every good word and work.
 
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