When did/will the old covenant end?

claninja said:

I agree, that the death of Christ initiated the new covenant, but that is not the OP. When did the old covenant end?

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after death by these Scriptures

We are not under the law as Christ has fulfilled it. He is our High Priest. However, that does not mean that we are not suppose to follow the Commandments in the Old Covenant as they are still prevalent today with our Christian walk into holiness with God. Matthew 5:18-20. Christ took the place of our death we surely deserved and gave us eternal life as it is a gift of God. Ephesians 2:8. That does not excuse us from continuing to sin in our lives without paying any penalty for it. Yes, we are saved by grace and God forgives us of our sins through the blood of Jesus, but that is not to be used for a reason to continue to sin over and over again. We are still racking up penalties when we have that mindset and are doing ourselves a disservice. We are suppose to strive for holiness and purity. 1 Peter 1:16. The only way we are going to understand holiness, purity, God's heart, God's ways is reading and understanding the Old Testament/Covenant. We have been reconciled back to Father through Jesus, (2 Cor 5 18-20) and have all the promises in the Old Testament. The Old Covenant has not ended in the perspective of God's commandments/truths, and we are in very much need of understanding it. We need to work out our salvation and continue to be perfected in the things of God every day. Philippians 2:12

claninja said:

When did/will the Old Covenant end?

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1. I think I'm going to go with #2 in the poll as my first choice, because I believe it ended for the saints when Jesus died on the Cross (such as for St. John who, as the first Christian, apparently, was also the first one of us to enter into the New Covenant, which happened immediately after the Lord's Resurrection for him).



2. However, I will also choose the last option in the poll as my 2nd choice, because I believe that for all who continue to trust in their own obedience/good works, rather than in the finished work of Christ alone, for them the Old Covenant remains in force (because none .. save the One, of course .. are capable of obeying the law .. e.g. Galatians 3:10; James 2:10-11, not even the basic one that is written in the heart of each of us by God).

Yours and His,
David

claninja said:

Jesus stated nothing from the law would pass away until heaven and earth pass away, and that anyone who taught otherwise would be called least in the kingdom.
matthew 5:18 For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished. 19Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

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The Law remains in print. The Law is taken from Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy. The Law is likely to remain in readable form until the end of the earth. Not one alpha or epsilon has been destroyed.

Part of the Law is:
Exodus 21:24 (WEB) eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,

Jesus amended this law:
Matthew 5:38-48 World English Bible (WEB)
38 “You have heard that it was said, ‘An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth.’ 39 But I tell you, don’t resist him who is evil; but whoever strikes you on your right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40 If anyone sues you to take away your coat, let him have your cloak also. 41 Whoever compels you to go one mile, go with him two. 42 Give to him who asks you, and don’t turn away him who desires to borrow from you.

Didn't read thread but the covenant died when the curtain at the temple ripped from top to bottom making God now available to us thru Jesus Christ. This happened right after his death.

dqhall said:

The Law is likely to remain in readable form until the end of the earth. Not one alpha or epsilon has been destroyed.

Part of the Law is:
Exodus 21:24 (WEB) eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,

Jesus amended this law:

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He also fulfilled it, the Law, that is, for us/all who "believe" .. John 3:16, yes?

BTW, your "eye for eye" quote reminded me of another one from Bono (oddly ).


Yours and His,
David

St_Worm2 said:

He also fulfilled it, the Law, that is, for us/all who "believe" .. John 3:16, yes?

BTW, your "eye for eye" quote reminded me of another one from Bono (oddly ).

"The thing that keeps me on my knees is the difference between Grace and Karma.

You see, at the center of all religions is the idea of Karma. You know, what you put out comes back to you: an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, or in physics — in physical laws — every action is met by an equal or an opposite one. It’s clear to me that Karma is at the very heart of the universe. I’m absolutely sure of it.

And yet, along comes this idea called Grace to upend all that ‘as you reap, so you will sow’ stuff. Grace defies reason and logic. Love interrupts, if you like, the consequences of your actions, which in my case is very good news indeed, because I’ve done a lot of stupid stuff.”

~U2's Bono​

Yours and His,
David

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It's interesting how many Christians don't understand that Jesus fulfilled the law so that we wouldn't have to. If Jesus cast out the law and didn't follow it, he would be condemned with the world. However he followed it to perfection and pleased the father with every single action in his entire life. This is impossible by human standards thus he fulfilled it so that we wouldn't have to. Now he sees us with the lens of Christ's perfection, making us perfect.

So now we are left with instructions that are humanly possible to follow: don't be sexually immoral, don't steal, love others, etc. etc. But we no longer need to be justified by the law since Christ's holiness is imputed onto us.

My answer isn't necessarily to you since I know you already know this but rather for others in this thread to read.

1stcenturylady said:

You are close to what I believe. But I do not believe under the New Covenant that a true Christian is in the flesh as you say in your second paragraph, but in the Spirit. We do not commit willful sins.

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If that were the case, Paul would not have had to write Romans 12. Or most of his letters, for that matter.

Kelvin Owens said:

We are not under the law as Christ has fulfilled it. He is our High Priest. However, that does not mean that we are not suppose to follow the Commandments in the Old Covenant as they are still prevalent today with our Christian walk into holiness with God. Matthew 5:18-20. Christ took the place of our death we surely deserved and gave us eternal life as it is a gift of God. Ephesians 2:8. That does not excuse us from continuing to sin in our lives without paying any penalty for it. Yes, we are saved by grace and God forgives us of our sins through the blood of Jesus, but that is not to be used for a reason to continue to sin over and over again. We are still racking up penalties when we have that mindset and are doing ourselves a disservice. We are suppose to strive for holiness and purity. 1 Peter 1:16. The only way we are going to understand holiness, purity, God's heart, God's ways is reading and understanding the Old Testament/Covenant. We have been reconciled back to Father through Jesus, (2 Cor 5 18-20) and have all the promises in the Old Testament. The Old Covenant has not ended in the perspective of God's commandments/truths, and we are in very much need of understanding it. We need to work out our salvation and continue to be perfected in the things of God every day. Philippians 2:12

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That's all covered under the new covenant.

claninja said:

So then it was still present after the cross?

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Until the temple was destroyed in AD70, which ended the ability of Jews to atone for sin through sacrifices. At that point, the old covenant could no longer apply because it provided no other way to atone for sins.

claninja said:

I would say it would be a combination of both. We no longer want to willfully sin after being born again, but if we do willfully sin, which we will in times of weakness, we have an advocated with the Father, Jesus Christ, who was the propitiation for our sins.
1 John 2:1-2
My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. 2He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

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Those are not willful sins in the first verse, as they are in the second. Where is the word repentance anywhere in that sentence. A Christian walks in the light, as in 1 John 1:7. When you walk in the Spirit you are not committing sins of the flesh. But are we perfect yet? No, and those sins not unto death are the sins that we could commit that are not willfully committed. Otherwise, Universalism would not be the false doctrine that it is.

RDKirk said:

If that were the case, Paul would not have had to write Romans 12. Or most of his letters, for that matter.

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I looked at Romans 12, and there are not the willful sins of the flesh, that Paul speaks of in Galatians 5. Don't you know the difference between sins unto death, and sins not unto death? The sins unto death, a Christian does not commit. And that is not suicide John was speaking of in 1 John 5.

There is a false doctrine going 'round that the sins of the flesh that Paul is speaking of in Galatians 5:19-21 and 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 where it says you will not inherit the kingdom of God, means you merely will not receive rewards, but will still go to heaven. Revelation 21:8 says that they will receive a reward, and tells exactly what that reward is - the lake of fire.

I urge all Christians who struggle with sin to repent and receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. I went to church for 30 years before repenting and receiving this gift of power that changed me overnight. Just repent and ask God to cleanse you from your sin nature that keeps pumping out sewage. He will give you a completely different nature; one born of God.

claninja said:

I agree that when Christ died, he instituted the New covenant with his blood. But that is not what the OP is about. the OP is when did the old covenant end?

Paul makes it very clear that the old covenant was fading away during his time, which was after the cross. The greek verb for 'is fading' is a present participle.
2 Corinthians 3:7 Now if the ministry of death, carved in letters on stone, came with such glory that the Israelites could not gaze at Moses’ face because of its glory, which is fading away
2 Corinthians 3:11 For if what is fading away came with glory, much more will what is permanent have glory.
The author of hebrews states the old covenant became obsolete and IS ready to vanish away, not that it already had vanished away.
Hebrews 8:13 In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

In Galatians, paul states that both covenants were existing at the same time during his generation.
these women are two covenants. One is from Mount Sinai, bearing children for slavery; she is Hagar. 25Now Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia;e she corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. 26But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother.

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I think you put this nicely. Since both covenants were running together for a period of time, I voted for the ascent of Christ instead of the destruction of the temple..

But your right, the old wasn't completely gone til the destruction so to answer the question another way would be to not pay attention to the wording of the question.

Good explanation.

Dave L said:

This is true. But that generation died off under the Old Covenant while the New began at the cross with the believing thief.

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I believe the Old Covenant ran as long as possible to give the Jews who were alive during Christ's ministry plenty of time to repent and be saved through Christ instead of the law.

But at the same time allowing the law to run to be the judge of those Jews who died during that time period without accepting Christ.

Now the only measure is Christ, but I think then the law continued to be the measure of unsaved Jews.

1stcenturylady said:

I looked at Romans 12, and there are not the willful sins of the flesh, that Paul speaks of in Galatians 5. Don't you know the difference between sins unto death, and sins not unto death? The sins unto death, a Christian does not commit. And that is not suicide John was speaking of in 1 John 5.

There is a false doctrine going 'round that the sins of the flesh that Paul is speaking of in Galatians 5:19-21 and 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 where it says you will not inherit the kingdom of God, means you merely will not receive rewards, but will still go to heaven. Revelation 21:8 says that they will receive a reward, and tells exactly what that reward is - the lake of fire.

I urge all Christians who struggle with sin to repent and receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. I went to church for 30 years before repenting and receiving this gift of power that changed me overnight. Just repent and ask God to cleanse you from your sin nature that keeps pumping out sewage. He will give you a completely different nature; one born of God.

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I think we have a significant differing concept of what "willful" means.

And probably what "sin" means.

When I was in my 20s, I thought I was a pretty righteous person.

As I've grown older, and learned more about Christ through the Holy Spirit, I've become more and more aware of how far I still have to go, even as my time grows shorter.

I think its amazing there are 4 people who think we are still under (aka subject to be judged by) Mosaic law, and not subject to be judged by the new covenant (aka under the blood of Christ)

I find that utterly shocking they think when they stand before God on that Day the measure they think they will be judged by is the law.

Wow.. would not want to live under that kind of stress. I want to be judged by Christ and covered under His blood. I already know I fail the law..

claninja said:

Jesus was born under the law
Galatians 4:4 But when the fullness of time had come, God sent forth his Son, born of woman, born under the law,
Jesus took away the debt ascribed the law at his death on the cross:
Colossians 2:14 having canceled the debt ascribed to us in the decrees that stood against us. He took it away, nailing it to the cross!
The old covenant was fading away when Paul wrote 2 Corinthians.
2 Corinthians 3:7 ow if the ministry of death, carved in letters on stone, came with such glory that the Israelites could not gaze at Moses’ face because of its glory, which is fading away
2 Corinthians 3:11 For if what is fading away came with glory, much more will what is permanent have glory.
The old covenant was made obsolete by the new covenant, and was ready to vanish away when Hebrews was written:
Hebrews 8:13 In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.
Jesus stated nothing from the law would pass away until heaven and earth pass away, and that anyone who taught otherwise would be called least in the kingdom.
matthew 5:18 For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished. 19Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

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The Old Law ended with Christ's death.

First, Jesus was referring to the Law OR THE PROPHETS shall not pass away until all will be fulfilled. This is saying that the whole of the Old Covenant (it's existence) will not pass away until all of it is fulfilled. See Matthew 5:17-18. This is a reference to the "Law and the prophets" mentioned elsewhere in Scripture (Which is referring to also the OT prophetic books, as well). So when Jesus refers to the "Law" he is referring to the whole of the Old Covenant writings (called the: Law and the prophets - See Matthew 7:12, Matthew 22:40, Luke 16:16, John 1:45, etc.). He is basically saying that the whole of the Old Covenant Scriptures will not pass away until all will be fulfilled. This doesn't mean that the Old Covenant is still in effect, though.

Second, Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed.
So we know there is a change in the Law.
But which laws?

Well, God's moral laws came into existence for man and would forever exist for him after the Fall of Adam and Eve (after they received the knowledge of good and evil).

These Moral Laws (like: “Do not murder,” “Do not steal,” Do not covet,” “Do not commit adultery,” etc.) are repeated in the 613 laws within the Law of Moses and they still in effect (i.e. They have been carried over into the New Testament). However, the Old Testament Law of Moses as a whole or package deal is no more. Things like the commands on circumcision, animal sacrifices, the Saturday Sabbath, etc. are no longer binding under the New Covenant. This is because the written Law given to Israel is no longer in effect (as a whole). How so?

Here are a list of verses:

7 "But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious." (2 Corinthians 3:7-11).

"When God speaks of a "new" covenant, it means he has made the first one obsolete. It is now out of date and will soon disappear." (Hebrews 8:13) (NLT).

"But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter." (Romans 7:6).

"Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;" (Colossians 2:14).

20 "Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;
22 Which all are to perish with the using; ) after the commandments and doctrines of men?
23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body: not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh."
(Colossians 2:20-23).

“By abolishing in His [own crucified] flesh the enmity [caused by] the Law with its decrees and ordinances [which He annulled]; that He from the two might create in Himself one new man [one new quality of humanity out of the two], so making peace.” (Ephesians 2:15) (AMPC).

"The old [former] rule [commandment; regulation] is now set aside [nullified; abolished], because it was weak and useless [ineffective]." (Hebrews 7:18) (EXB).

9 “Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;
10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.” (Hebrews 9:9-10).

8 “Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.” (Hebrews 10:8-9).

“And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.” (Acts of the Apostles 15:1).

“But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.” (Acts of the Apostles 15:5).

“Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment” (Acts of the Apostles 15:24).

28 "For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well." (Acts of the Apostles 15:28-29).

The Old Covenant says this about circumcision:
"And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant." (Genesis 17:14).

Yet, the New Covenant says this about circumcision:
"Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing." (Galatians 5:2).

The Old Covenant says this about the Sabbath:
32 "And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day.
33 And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation.
34 And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him.
35 And the Lord said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.
36 And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the Lord commanded Moses." (Numbers 15:32-36).

Yet, the New Covenant says this about the Sabbath:
"Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:" (Colossians 2:16).

So it appears things have changed.
This makes sense because Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed (as I already pointed out).

“For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.”
(John 1:17).

What things in the Bible strongly suggest to me that the Law has ended with Christ's death?

Two things:

#1. When Jesus died upon the cross, the temple veil was torn from top to bottom letting us know that the laws on the animal sacrifices along with the priesthood (Which is part of the Law of Moses) had ended.

#2. Paul says, "Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;" (Colossians 2:14). What handwriting of ordinances were blotted out? The ceremonial laws and judicial laws given to Israel. The Moral Law obviously is what continues on into the New Covenant.

The Mosaic economy ended when the Temple system and Levitical priesthood were judged and annihilated by King Jesus.

You have to ask, how could the abomination of desecration desecrate something that was no longer holy? The obvious answer is that it was still holy.

drjean said:

I believe Jesus FULFILLED the law, as He said, with His resurrection proving His power over death and hell as well. The Law was given to show mankind their fallen state, and to prove they could not keep any law for their own salvation but needed to believe (and prove they believe by offering the sacrifices) that Elohim would send the Messiah for the Ultimate Sacrifice.

Matthew 5:17

"Do not think that I have come to do away with the Law of Moses and the teachings of the prophets. I have not come to do away with them, but to make their teachings come true.

Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

Think not that I am come to make void the law or the prophets; I am not come to make void, but to fulfil.​

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Nowhere does the Bible say that the Law was given to show us that we couldn't keep it, but rather God said in Deuteronomy 30:11-20 that what he commanded was not too difficult for His people to obey, that obedience brings life and a blessing, that disobedience brings death and a curse, and so choose life! So it is presented by God as a possibility and as choice. God is no an unloving Father who gave the Law in order to set His children up for failure and in order to put His children under a curse, but rather He is a loving Father who gave the Law for our own good to bless us and to set us up for success.

The one and only way that there has ever been to become saved is by grace through faith. For example, in Hebrews 11:7, Noah was listed as an example of faith and in Genesis 6:8-9, it says that he found grace in the eyes of God and that he was a righteous man, so he was saved by grace through faith in the same way we are. Likewise, Abraham and everyone else listed in Hebrews 11 were justified by faith, so God has no need to provide an alternative and unobtainable means of becoming justified by our obedience to the Law when a perfectly good means was already in place, so the Law was never given for that purpose.

"To fulfill the Law" means "to cause God's will (as made known in the Law) to be obeyed as it should be" (NAS Greek Lexicon pleroo 2c3). After Jesus said he came to fulfill the Law in Matthew 5, this is precisely what he then proceeded to do six times throughout the rest of the chapter by teaching how to correctly understand and obey it. In Galatians 5:14, loving your neighbor fulfills the entire law, so it refers to obeying the Law as it should be obeyed, and refers to something countless people have done, not to something unique to Christ. Likewise, Galatians 6:2 says that bearing one another's burdens fulfills the Law of Christ, so you should interpret it in the same way as fulfilling the Law and the Prophets, namely obeying it as it should be, not as doing away with it. In Romans 15:18-19, it says that Paul fulfilled the Gospel, which again referred to causing Gentiles to become fully obedient to it in word and in deed, not to doing away with it.