When did/will the old covenant end?

[claninja]

Jesus was born under the law
Galatians 4:4 But when the fullness of time had come, God sent forth his Son, born of woman, born under the law,
Jesus took away the debt ascribed the law at his death on the cross:
Colossians 2:14 having canceled the debt ascribed to us in the decrees that stood against us. He took it away, nailing it to the cross!
The old covenant was fading away when Paul wrote 2 Corinthians.
2 Corinthians 3:7 ow if the ministry of death, carved in letters on stone, came with such glory that the Israelites could not gaze at Moses’ face because of its glory, which is fading away
2 Corinthians 3:11 For if what is fading away came with glory, much more will what is permanent have glory.
The old covenant was made obsolete by the new covenant, and was ready to vanish away when Hebrews was written:
Hebrews 8:13 In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.
Jesus stated nothing from the law would pass away until heaven and earth pass away, and that anyone who taught otherwise would be called least in the kingdom.
matthew 5:18 For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished. 19Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

 

[drjean]

I believe Jesus FULFILLED the law, as He said, with His resurrection proving His power over death and hell as well. The Law was given to show mankind their fallen state, and to prove they could not keep any law for their own salvation but needed to believe (and prove they believe by offering the sacrifices) that Elohim would send the Messiah for the Ultimate Sacrifice.

Matthew 5:17

"Do not think that I have come to do away with the Law of Moses and the teachings of the prophets. I have not come to do away with them, but to make their teachings come true.

Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

Think not that I am come to make void the law or the prophets; I am not come to make void, but to fulfil.​

 

[1stcenturylady]

Jesus was born under the law
Galatians 4:4 But when the fullness of time had come, God sent forth his Son, born of woman, born under the law,
Jesus took away the debt ascribed the law at his death on the cross:
Colossians 2:14 having canceled the debt ascribed to us in the decrees that stood against us. He took it away, nailing it to the cross!
The old covenant was fading away when Paul wrote 2 Corinthians.
2 Corinthians 3:7 ow if the ministry of death, carved in letters on stone, came with such glory that the Israelites could not gaze at Moses’ face because of its glory, which is fading away
2 Corinthians 3:11 For if what is fading away came with glory, much more will what is permanent have glory.
The old covenant was made obsolete by the new covenant, and was ready to vanish away when Hebrews was written:
Hebrews 8:13 In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.
Jesus stated nothing from the law would pass away until heaven and earth pass away, and that anyone who taught otherwise would be called least in the kingdom.
matthew 5:18 For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished. 19Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

There are many avenues one can take by believing we are not under the law. Of the following which do you most agree with?

1. We willfully sin, but they are not imputed to us for punishment, making us not under the law, due to the blood of Jesus covering those willful sins. (Most common.)

2. We do not willfully sin any longer due to the power of the Holy Spirit in us.

 

[Dave L]

Jesus fulfilled the Law and replaced it with the New Covenant on the cross. Circumcision made one a physical Jew and physical member of Israel. With circumcision gone, that last generation began dying off until only spiritual Israel made up of believers in Christ was left. It is these to whom God grafted us into as believing gentiles. And to whom he also reattaches believing "Jews" according to Romans 11.

 

[1stcenturylady]

Jesus fulfilled the Law and replaced it with the New Covenant on the cross. Circumcision made one a physical Jew and physical member of Israel. With circumcision gone, that last generation began dying off until only spiritual Israel made up of believers in Christ was left. It is these to whom God grafted us into as believing gentiles. And to whom he also reattaches believing "Jews" according to Romans 11.

Can you answer the question in #3?

 

[Dave L]

Can you answer the question in #3?

#2 is the norm. But we have the Two Great Commandments, love for God and people, that existed long before the Ten Commandments. Anyone could keep the Ten Commandments for the wrong reasons. But only the Born Again can live in harmony with the Two Great Commandments. This is why Paul says even martyrdom not motivated by love is worthless.

 

[1stcenturylady]

#2 is the norm. But we have the Two Great Commandments, love for God and people, that existed long before the Ten Commandments. Anyone could keep the Ten Commandments for the wrong reasons. But only the Born Again can live in harmony with the Two Great Commandments. This is why Paul says even martyrdom not motivated by love is worthless.

2 is correct, but not the norm. The norm is number 1, a false doctrine, born from a Spiritless carnal scholar which infiltrated the Church all the way back to the first century, called Gnosticism. It turns the grace of God into licentiousness. Parts of Gnosticism are alive and well, on how sin is looked upon.

 

[RDKirk]

The old covenant was made obsolete by the new covenant, and was ready to vanish away when Hebrews was written:
Hebrews 8:13 In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.
.

I voted that the old covenant completely passed away with the destruction of the temple.

Remember that under the old covenant, there was only one way, one way alone, for the atonement of sin: Sacrifice on the temple altar. There was no other way than bloody sacrifice for sin to be atoned under the old covenant. No other way.

At the time of the writing of Hebrews, the temple still existed. People were still doing their sacrifices. The writer could point to the eventual obsolescence because the new covenant had begun (with the blood of Jesus), but the temple was still there and blood sacrifices were still available to his Jewish-Christian audience.

 

[Dave L]

2 is correct, but not the norm. The norm is number 1, a false doctrine, born from a Spiritless carnal scholar which infiltrated the Church all the way back to the first century, called Gnosticism. It turns the grace of God into licentiousness. Parts of Gnosticism are alive and well, on how sin is looked upon.

Norm for maturing Christians.

 

[1stcenturylady]

Norm for maturing Christians.

Yes, norm for Spirit-filled Christians. Too many believe they are Christians but do not have the power of the Holy Spirit. And without the Spirit of Christ in them, they cannot please God and are not actually Christians. You will know them by their fruit.

 

[RDKirk]

There are many avenues one can take by believing we are not under the law. Of the following which do you most agree with?

1. We willfully sin, but they are not imputed to us for punishment, making us not under the law, due to the blood of Jesus covering those willful sins. (Most common.)

2. We do not willfully sin any longer due to the power of the Holy Spirit in us.

We are under the Messianic Covenant rather than the Mosaic Covenant.

I would point out that even under the Mosaic Covenant, atonement was not required until the sin was made known. Only after the sin was made known to the person was atonement required.

The impulse to sin that resides within the flesh is no different under either covenant.

The method of making that sin known is different, however. Under the old covenant, sin was made known through the written code. Under the new covenant, sin is made known through the indwelling Holy Spirit.

Under both covenants, when sin is made known, two things are required: Repentance and blood. Under the old covenant, the penitent provided a sacrifice each and every time. Under the new covenant, God has provided a permanently effective sacrifice for all sins. However, it remains to the penitent to be penitent to seek the covering of that blood.

 

[1stcenturylady]

We are under the Messianic Covenant rather than the Mosaic Covenant.

I would point out that even under the Mosaic Covenant, atonement was not required until the sin was made known. Only after the sin was made known to the person was atonement required.

The impulse to sin that resides within the flesh is no different under either covenant.

The method of making that sin known is different, however. Under the old covenant, sin was made known through the written code. Under the new covenant, sin is made known through the indwelling Holy Spirit.

Under both covenants, when sin is made known, two things are required: Repentance and blood. Under the old covenant, the penitent provided a sacrifice each and every time. Under the new covenant, God has provided a permanently effective sacrifice for all sins. However, it remains to the penitent to be penitent to seek the covering of that blood.

You are close to what I believe. But I do not believe under the New Covenant that a true Christian is in the flesh as you say in your second paragraph, but in the Spirit. We do not commit willful sins. However, you are right that the Spirit will correct us of trespasses to perfect us for the rest of our lives. Trespasses are not willful sins, in that they are not in rebellion against the laws of God, thus they are not lawlessness. They are imperfections in our fruit of the Spirit. They are pruned off.

 

[claninja]

I believe Jesus FULFILLED the law, as He said, with His resurrection proving His power over death and hell as well. The Law was given to show mankind their fallen state, and to prove they could not keep any law for their own salvation but needed to believe (and prove they believe by offering the sacrifices) that Elohim would send the Messiah for the Ultimate Sacrifice.

Matthew 5:17

"Do not think that I have come to do away with the Law of Moses and the teachings of the prophets. I have not come to do away with them, but to make their teachings come true.

Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

Think not that I am come to make void the law or the prophets; I am not come to make void, but to fulfil.​

I agree that Jesus fulfilled the law, as he literally states he came to fulfill the law:
Matthew 5:17 I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.
But in the next sentence, Jesus states not one iota of the law will change until heaven and earth pass away.
Matthew 5:18 For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished.
Even the writers of 2 Corinthians and Hebrews states the old covenant was passing away during their time. This was long after Christ died, rose again, and ascended.
2 Corinthians 3:7 Now if the ministry of death, carved in letters on stone, came with such glory that the Israelites could not gaze at Moses’ face because of its glory, which is fading away
2 Corinthians 3:11 For if what is fading away came with glory, much more will what is permanent have glory.
Hebrews 8:13 In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.
Paul even states those under the old covenant were persecuting those under the new covenant.
Galatians 4:29 At that time the son born according to the flesh persecuted the son born by the power of the Spirit. It is the same now.

If the old covenant ended at the cross, how could unbelieving Jews be freed from the law after the cross without believing in Christ?
Romans 7:6 But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.

 

[claninja]

There are many avenues one can take by believing we are not under the law. Of the following which do you most agree with?

1. We willfully sin, but they are not imputed to us for punishment, making us not under the law, due to the blood of Jesus covering those willful sins. (Most common.)

2. We do not willfully sin any longer due to the power of the Holy Spirit in us.

I would say it would be a combination of both. We no longer want to willfully sin after being born again, but if we do willfully sin, which we will in times of weakness, we have an advocated with the Father, Jesus Christ, who was the propitiation for our sins.
1 John 2:1-2
My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. 2He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

 

[claninja]

Jesus fulfilled the Law and replaced it with the New Covenant on the cross. Circumcision made one a physical Jew and physical member of Israel. With circumcision gone, that last generation began dying off until only spiritual Israel made up of believers in Christ was left. It is these to whom God grafted us into as believing gentiles. And to whom he also reattaches believing "Jews" according to Romans 11.

I agree that when Christ died, he instituted the New covenant with his blood. But that is not what the OP is about. the OP is when did the old covenant end?

Paul makes it very clear that the old covenant was fading away during his time, which was after the cross. The greek verb for 'is fading' is a present participle.
2 Corinthians 3:7 Now if the ministry of death, carved in letters on stone, came with such glory that the Israelites could not gaze at Moses’ face because of its glory, which is fading away
2 Corinthians 3:11 For if what is fading away came with glory, much more will what is permanent have glory.
The author of hebrews states the old covenant became obsolete and IS ready to vanish away, not that it already had vanished away.
Hebrews 8:13 In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

In Galatians, paul states that both covenants were existing at the same time during his generation.
these women are two covenants. One is from Mount Sinai, bearing children for slavery; she is Hagar. 25Now Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia;e she corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. 26But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother.

 

[Dave L]

I agree that when Christ died, he instituted the New covenant with his blood. But that is not what the OP is about. the OP is when did the old covenant end?

Paul makes it very clear that the old covenant was fading away during his time, which was after the cross. The greek verb for 'is fading' is a present participle.
2 Corinthians 3:7 Now if the ministry of death, carved in letters on stone, came with such glory that the Israelites could not gaze at Moses’ face because of its glory, which is fading away
2 Corinthians 3:11 For if what is fading away came with glory, much more will what is permanent have glory.
The author of hebrews states the old covenant became obsolete and IS ready to vanish away, not that it already had vanished away.
Hebrews 8:13 In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

In Galatians, paul states that both covenants were existing at the same time during his generation.
these women are two covenants. One is from Mount Sinai, bearing children for slavery; she is Hagar. 25Now Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia;e she corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. 26But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother.

This is true. But that generation died off under the Old Covenant while the New began at the cross with the believing thief.

 

[Chinchilla]

Jesus was born under the law
Galatians 4:4 But when the fullness of time had come, God sent forth his Son, born of woman, born under the law,
Jesus took away the debt ascribed the law at his death on the cross:
Colossians 2:14 having canceled the debt ascribed to us in the decrees that stood against us. He took it away, nailing it to the cross!
The old covenant was fading away when Paul wrote 2 Corinthians.
2 Corinthians 3:7 ow if the ministry of death, carved in letters on stone, came with such glory that the Israelites could not gaze at Moses’ face because of its glory, which is fading away
2 Corinthians 3:11 For if what is fading away came with glory, much more will what is permanent have glory.
The old covenant was made obsolete by the new covenant, and was ready to vanish away when Hebrews was written:
Hebrews 8:13 In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.
Jesus stated nothing from the law would pass away until heaven and earth pass away, and that anyone who taught otherwise would be called least in the kingdom.
matthew 5:18 For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished. 19Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

Hebrews 9:16-17 King James Version (KJV)
16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.

17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

 

[claninja]

Hebrews 9:16-17 King James Version (KJV)
16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.

17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

I agree, that the death of Christ initiated the new covenant, but that is not the OP. When did the old covenant end?

 

[claninja]

This is true. But that generation died off under the Old Covenant while the New began at the cross with the believing thief.

I agree. So when you say the old covenant vanished?

 

[Dave L]

I agree. So when you say the old covenant vanished?

It ended at the cross but phased out as that generation died off.