Could Native Americans back then be saved?

Albion · Aug 15, 2018

The American native is in the same situation as every other people which did not know Christ thanks to geography or time. The Bible seems to say that they are lost without faith in him, but as was already noted by another poster, this is something that only God knows, and we might as well not stew over it.

oldrunner · Aug 15, 2018

Acts 17:30-31, gives you the answer. It seems harsh, but the raod is narrow unto salvation.

For a context; just think, only 8 people in the whole Earth-in the first world, were spared from the flood. They were all corrupt and wicked. And there were probably millions of people on the Earth then. (Gen. 6-7) Mans evil heart without Divine enablement, will only get worse, not better. Much more as we see the Day of the Lord approaching.

JacksBratt · Aug 15, 2018

DevinCamary said:
My mind has been going over this question from time to time. In the Americas, Natives probably haven't heard of Christ at all until settlers came around 1490. And after that, other conquests that weren't... the best... ANYWAYS, I was wondering if Jesus would have an impact on those who were in the Americas. Would they be judged based off action? Did any of them have a theology similar to Christianity or Judaism? Did God have an impact over in the Americas before?

People who have never heard of Christ can be saved... They are judged by the pure and righteous justice of God..

When talking of those who have not heard, we get this:

Romans 1:20 King James Version (KJV)
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Shiloh Raven · Aug 15, 2018

FireDragon76 said:
In terms of tribal belonging, no.

Thank you for answering my first question. I appreciate it.

FireDragon76 said:
LGBT Christians also feel hurt by Christendom. But some identify as Christians anyways, because sometimes spiritual needs transcends grievances. Sometimes it is necessary to develop contextual theology unique to particular groups of people whose experiences different from the dominant perspective of Christians.

https://www.mprnews.org/story/2013/11/13/arts/native-spirituality-christianity

Thank you for sharing the article with me. Admittedly, I have mixed feelings about NDNs embracing Christianity too and has been a personal issue and struggle for me since I was a child and old enough to understand religious faith. I still struggle with the balance between honoring my NDN heritage and ancestry to being a devoted Christian. There are days when I feel like the two are polar opposites and cannot be reconciled with each other. But I recognize that this personal inward struggle stems from the common argument that an NDN can't be an NDN and still be a devout Christian. And sadly, this argument comes from both sides of the aisle (from NDNs and white Christians).

Albion · Aug 15, 2018

People who have never heard of Christ can be saved... They are judged by the pure and righteous justice of God..

When talking of those who have not heard, we get this:

That *they are without excuse* may tell us that such people can be eternally dammed. It doesn't tell us that they are going to be saved, however.

oldrunner · Aug 15, 2018

So, after thinking some. God could choose to save people- like out in the jungle through them having a dream or vision, or even appearing to them. But they would have to place their faith and trust in the Jesus of the Bible, not a native "god".

This would be highly unlikely IMO, because we have missionaries and Bible translation teams. All this working at just the right time to bring them to salvation, in God's order of things.

From what I have read-and I don't know if it's true, this is happening in some Muslim countries now. They are having dreams and visions, and they are coming to Christ. They are then directed to Christians who are secretly living in the countries.

The soil might of been tilled by certain belief's passed down orally through the centuries since the Flood, this is true. But since the cross, under the new covenant, people must repent of their old belief's. There old belief system will not be enough to save them.

FireDragon76 · Aug 15, 2018

We can know that God is the savior of all people (1 Timothy 4:10). Beyond that, we can only speculate.

Done222 · Aug 15, 2018

1. Jesus is the only way to the Father

2. If you call upon the name of the Lord, you will be saved.

Both of these statements are clearly supported by the Bible. Christians assume they are talking about the same thing, but this is only an assumption no matter how many Christians believe it to be true. These are two different statements and while they are both supported by multiple verses in the Bible, they are never clearly tied together. It may be true that 100% of Christians believe these two statements are tied together, but that doesn't make it true. When Jesus came to Israel everybody got it wrong. Likewise when Jesus returns it will likely be true that everybody will have gotten some things wrong.

Getting saved by calling on the Lord may be talking about forgiveness in this life (temporal salvation).

Jesus is the only way to the Father is talking about eternal life in Heaven, but this doesn’t necessarily require calling on the name of the Lord if getting saved by calling on the name of the Lord is talking about temporal salvation (which is something completely different).

This means Jesus is the only way to the Father, but Jesus provides eternal life to whomever He will. It isn't necessary to be a Christian.

AlexDTX · Aug 15, 2018

DevinCamary said:
My mind has been going over this question from time to time. In the Americas, Natives probably haven't heard of Christ at all until settlers came around 1490. And after that, other conquests that weren't... the best... ANYWAYS, I was wondering if Jesus would have an impact on those who were in the Americas. Would they be judged based off action? Did any of them have a theology similar to Christianity or Judaism? Did God have an impact over in the Americas before?

General knowledge of the Savior was known to Adam and Eve and had been passed down to every generation. The tower of Babel dispersion caused that knowledge to be corrupted but was still seen in the naming of the stars and in various mythologies. Specific revelation came to Moses, and lastly from the Messiah himself.

Paul tells us in Romans that the knowledge of God is revealed through all creation, and those who have not heard the Gospel still have the knowledge of right and wrong in their hearts. Those who seek the truth will find it. Unfortunately, wide and broad is the path of destruction because most don't actually want the truth.

Phil 1:21 · Aug 15, 2018

"Jesus answered, 'I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.'" John 14:6

Paul of Eugene OR · Aug 15, 2018

DevinCamary said:
My mind has been going over this question from time to time. In the Americas, Natives probably haven't heard of Christ at all until settlers came around 1490. And after that, other conquests that weren't... the best... ANYWAYS, I was wondering if Jesus would have an impact on those who were in the Americas. Would they be judged based off action? Did any of them have a theology similar to Christianity or Judaism? Did God have an impact over in the Americas before?

Paul explained this very clearly. He discussed this issue in his letter to the Romans. As for whether or not people without a missionary or an apostle have heard the message of God, he had this to say:

Rom 10:18 But I say, surely they have never heard, have they? Indeed they have;
"THEIR VOICE HAS GONE OUT INTO ALL THE EARTH,
AND THEIR WORDS TO THE ENDS OF THE WORLD."

The bolded portion is, of course, from Psalms 19, which begins "The heavens declare the glory of God".

Paul is asserting here that the natural revelation of God in the stars and the rest of creation are enough to bring people to a saving knowledge of God.

Now of course that salvation can only happen because of Christ's atoning work on the cross, but it is another thing to insist that people have to realize that is the case. Paul there is saying it is NOT necessary to understand the historical details about Jesus.

Blade · Aug 15, 2018

LIVED in that world..anyway.. Jesus said once.. if you were blind you would have no sin.. you say you see your sin remains. So SOME were are blind. So maybe the Father will judge them on the light they did have. They then like us today look out in to this world and make a choice.. SOMETHING made all this or not. He wrote His laws in mans heart. To listen to do them or not. Do good or be evil. To some.. it was the great spirit..anyway

And its HIS way..His rules. There is no sin thats OK with God.

My Dad (not mom) was Nez Perce

Ignatius the Kiwi · Aug 15, 2018

The worst thing to say is that they were automatically damned by their sins since they had not heard Christ. Is God so legalistic as to not take circumstance into consideration that there were many, most people in fact, who did not have a chance to hear the Gospel or have any knowledge of God that they had no chance for forgiveness (if forgiveness and reconciliation with God happens only in this life)?

Another bad thing to say is that they were saved because they kept to a basic law of nature. If this were the case then Christians ought not proselytize because more people will be saved because most will reject the Gospel upon not hearing it.

Personally I land on the option of not knowing. These seem to represent the two common viewpoints that answer either negatively or affirmatively and I can't get behind either.

sdowney717 · Aug 16, 2018

Ignatius the Kiwi said:
The worst thing to say is that they were automatically damned by their sins since they had not heard Christ. Is God so legalistic as to not take circumstance into consideration that there were many, most people in fact, who did not have a chance to hear the Gospel or have any knowledge of God that they had no chance for forgiveness (if forgiveness and reconciliation with God happens only in this life)?

Another bad thing to say is that they were saved because they kept to a basic law of nature. If this were the case then Christians ought not proselytize because more people will be saved because most will reject the Gospel upon not hearing it.

Personally I land on the option of not knowing. These seem to represent the two common viewpoints that answer either negatively or affirmatively and I can't get behind either.

So this verse here in John 3

36 He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

There are people who do not know God and never get to hear, following your thinking, this verse has no application today?

And what about this 2 Thessalonians 1 chapter, verse 8, God's wrath is on those who do not know God.
It says God takes vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel.
That means all people who are not saved believers in Christ, God will destroy, regardless of them not hearing the gospel. If reasonable good people can go to heaven without Christ, then evangelising the lost is a waste of time. and even the work of Christ is then unnecessary,

3 We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is fitting, because your faith grows exceedingly, and the love of every one of you all abounds toward each other, 4 so that we ourselves boast of you among the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and [a]tribulations that you endure, 5 which is manifest evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you also suffer; 6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with [c]tribulation those who trouble you, 7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who [d]believe, because our testimony among you was believed.

People who do no know God are of this world and under Satan's sway. And they also trouble and persecute Christ's church. They are disobedient to the law of God, even if they never heard it, the law of God is written on their hearts, people know right from wrong actions. Regarding the law of God, if you fail in the slightest bit, you have transgressed the whole law. The tiniest sin is enough to condemn a person.

Ignatius the Kiwi · Aug 16, 2018

sdowney717 said:
So this verse here in John 3

36 He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

There are people who do not know God and never get to hear, following your thinking, this verse has no application today?

And what about this 2 Thessalonians 1 chapter, verse 8, God's wrath is on those who do not know God.
It says God takes vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel.
That means all people who are not saved believers in Christ, God will destroy, regardless of them not hearing the gospel. If reasonable good people can go to heaven without Christ, then evangelising the lost is a waste of time. and even the work of Christ is then unnecessary,

3 We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is fitting, because your faith grows exceedingly, and the love of every one of you all abounds toward each other, 4 so that we ourselves boast of you among the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and [a]tribulations that you endure, 5 which is manifest evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you also suffer; 6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with [c]tribulation those who trouble you, 7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who [d]believe, because our testimony among you was believed.

People who do no know God are of this world and under Satan's sway. And they also trouble and persecute Christ's church. They are disobedient to the law of God, even if they never heard it, the law of God is written on their hearts, people know right from wrong actions. Regarding the law of God, if you fail in the slightest bit, you have transgressed the whole law. The tiniest sin is enough to condemn a person.

I'm not denying out sinfulness. Still, if I have read your conclusion correctly, you think those who did not know Christ (even if they had no chance) died in their sins and are doomed to damnation? How is this a good thing when the sinner has not even had the chance to hear the message of salvation in order to repent in the first place? If I locked a man in a room, deprived him of one thing and then I let him out, is it reasonable for me to condemn the man for not having that thing?

Explain the justice of their ultimate condemnation.

sdowney717 · Aug 16, 2018

Ignatius the Kiwi said:
I'm not denying out sinfulness. Still, if I have read your conclusion correctly, you think those who did not know Christ (even if they had no chance) died in their sins and are doomed to damnation? How is this a good thing when the sinner has not even had the chance to hear the message of salvation in order to repent in the first place? If I locked a man in a room, deprived him of one thing and then I let him out, is it reasonable for me to condemn the man for not having that thing?

Explain the justice of their ultimate condemnation.

Jesus told the unbelieving Jews this,

John 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

I take this as a gospel truth, that no one comes to the Father but by Christ His Son.
There are none that do good, all have turned away from God.
For those that are saved, God has shown to them His mercy, great love and compassion, while others God demonstrates in them His justice, as it says in Romans 9. This is not cruel, the soul that sins, God says shall die. Since all are sinners, all that remains is for God to show compassion to some, Jesus said many walk the broad path to destruction. God in Romans 1 gives people over to a reprobate mind.

But for some God has chosen to have great love and compassion, which is why we are born again and believe in Christ. We who are saved were following after the devil and fulfilling the lusts of the flesh, as are the others, But God demonstrated great love towards us and made us alive who were dead, The mystery of why some believe has its origin with God and we don't have that knowledge, all we know is He loved us with a great love. And in Ephesians 1, God works all things in accordance with His purpose and will. We believers are God's workmanship.

Ephesians 2
2 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the [a]course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

Ignatius the Kiwi · Aug 16, 2018

sdowney717 said:
Jesus told the unbelieving Jews this,

John 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

I take this as a gospel truth, that no one comes to the Father but by Christ His Son.
There are none that do good, all have turned away from God.
For those that are saved, God has shown to them His mercy, great love and compassion, while others God demonstrates in them His justice, as it says in Romans 9. This is not cruel, the soul that sins, God says shall die. Since all are sinners, all that remains is for God to show compassion to some, Jesus said many walk the broad path to destruction. God in Romans 1 gives people over to a reprobate mind.

But for some God has chosen to have great love and compassion, which is why we are born again and believe in Christ. We who are saved were following after the devil and fulfilling the lusts of the flesh, as are the others, But God demonstrated great love towards us and made us alive who were dead, The mystery of why some believe has its origin with God and we don't have that knowledge, all we know is He loved us with a great love. And in Ephesians 1, God works all things in accordance with His purpose and will. We believers are God's workmanship.

Ephesians 2
2 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the [a]course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

I don't disagree with your position that we cannot be saved except through Christ, yet you haven't actually explained the justice of your position by quoting Paul or Jesus (who don't address this problem directly). Jesus tells the Pharisees who have already been made witness to him that they will die in their sins, not people who have no knowledge of him at all.

If you insist on quoting scripture, don't quote long passages to me. Please exegete it and explain how God has left people deliberately in ignorance and condemns on the basis of their sin which could not be remedied due to their ignorance. Why does this make sense? Does God look at the sin instead of the individual?

Kit Sigmon · Aug 17, 2018

DevinCamary said:
My mind has been going over this question from time to time. In the Americas, Natives probably haven't heard of Christ at all until settlers came around 1490. And after that, other conquests that weren't... the best... ANYWAYS, I was wondering if Jesus would have an impact on those who were in the Americas. Would they be judged based off action? Did any of them have a theology similar to Christianity or Judaism? Did God have an impact over in the Americas before?

God has no problem getting His Word out to humans even those in the remotest of areas.
God knows how to reach people...even those who don't know Him...read:
Joshua 24:1-15...early ones be idol makers/worshipers of idols until "God got in
touch with them".
God taught first man and woman about himself...way on back in the beginning
of life on the earth.

Even after flooding the earth (in biblical times)....God still in touch with man, He reserved Noah and his family to start with again.
Mankind still making choice to serve God or not, the same as it was WAY back then as it is today.

Tribesman from Africa came to my old church many years ago, he native, use to wearing animal skins, feathers in his hair and sheep fur leggings worshiping wooden idol...dancing around fire during certain times, worshiping idols etc.

One day he asked who made this idol? Who made the tree/who made the rock?
He kept asking and seeking the answers and when no person could help him, he looked up into the sky and asked aloud who made all this, I want to know.
God sends missionary to this remote village of tribemens to answer that native man's questions, teach him about God and the Bible.
In the course of time that tribesman calls upon the Lord for salvation /accepts Jesus as Lord/Savior.
Years later this man come and present himself to our church, he is now a
missionary himself and is seeking others helpers in doing missions in remote
areas.

Some my family be missionaries in pagan lands... people there, they come
to know the Lord.

There others whom the HOly Spirit speak to in dreams/visions revealing
truth about Messiah.

Sometime, it be one, maybe two people who come to faith in a tribe or village and it could be another 20 years before others come to believe.

sdowney717 · Aug 17, 2018

Ignatius the Kiwi said:
I don't disagree with your position that we cannot be saved except through Christ, yet you haven't actually explained the justice of your position by quoting Paul or Jesus (who don't address this problem directly). Jesus tells the Pharisees who have already been made witness to him that they will die in their sins, not people who have no knowledge of him at all.

If you insist on quoting scripture, don't quote long passages to me. Please exegete it and explain how God has left people deliberately in ignorance and condemns on the basis of their sin which could not be remedied due to their ignorance. Why does this make sense? Does God look at the sin instead of the individual?

You have a logic problem going on, you agree Jesus is the only way to heaven and God, yet you don't comprehend how those who don't know Christ who is God, but are reasonably nice people will go to hell.
So do you really believe the gospel of Christ?

SkyWriting · Aug 17, 2018

Dave-W said:
There is absolutely no scripture to support that opinion.

Proverbs 8:17
I love those who love me, and those who seek me diligently find me.

Lamentations 3:25
The Lord is good to those who wait for him, to the soul who seeks him.

Psalm 119:10
With my whole heart I seek you; let me not wander from your commandments!

Psalm 9:10
And those who know your name put their trust in you, for you, O Lord, have not forsaken those who seek you.

Psalm 34:10
The young lions suffer want and hunger; but those who seek the Lord lack no good thing.

Job 5:8-9
“As for me, I would seek God, and to God would I commit my cause, who does great things and unsearchable, marvelous things without number:

Psalm 40:16
But may all who seek you rejoice and be glad in you; may those who love your salvation say continually, “Great is the Lord!”

Psalm 27:8
You have said, “Seek my face.” My heart says to you, “Your face, Lord, do I seek.”

100 Bible Verses about Seeking God - OpenBible.info

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