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Could Native Americans back then be saved?

Dave-W

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Proverbs 8:17
I love those who love me, and those who seek me diligently find me.

Lamentations 3:25
The Lord is good to those who wait for him, to the soul who seeks him.

Psalm 119:10
With my whole heart I seek you; let me not wander from your commandments!

Psalm 9:10
And those who know your name put their trust in you, for you, O Lord, have not forsaken those who seek you.

Psalm 34:10
The young lions suffer want and hunger; but those who seek the Lord lack no good thing.

Job 5:8-9
“As for me, I would seek God, and to God would I commit my cause, who does great things and unsearchable, marvelous things without number:

Psalm 40:16
But may all who seek you rejoice and be glad in you; may those who love your salvation say continually, “Great is the Lord!”

Psalm 27:8
You have said, “Seek my face.” My heart says to you, “Your face, Lord, do I seek.”


100 Bible Verses about Seeking God - OpenBible.info
All of those scriptures assume the person knows who God is.

Not so in the case of aboriginals who have never heard.
 
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SkyWriting

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All of those scriptures assume the person knows who God is.

Not so in the case of aboriginals who have never heard.

God has made himself known before Adam wrote anything or spoke to anyone.
19For what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood from His workmanship, so that men are without excuse.

God's message that I AM, existed before man did.

And WASPS not being in tune with that, does not stop native americans from being better informed than the rest of us.
 
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Dave-W

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And WASPS not being in tune with that, does not stop native americans from being better informed than the rest of us.
Acts 4:12
And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved.”

Joel 2:32a
“And it will come about that whoever calls on the name of the Lord Will be saved;

Acts 2:21
‘And it shall be that everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.’

Romans 10:13
for “Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved.” 14 How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher?​

If they do not know the Name, how can they be saved?
 
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SkyWriting

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Acts 4:12
And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved.”

Joel 2:32a
“And it will come about that whoever calls on the name of the Lord Will be saved;

Acts 2:21
‘And it shall be that everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.’

Romans 10:13
for “Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved.” 14 How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher?​

If they do not know the Name, how can they be saved?


If you study "Name" you will discover it's a reputation and not even words.
 
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Dave-W

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If you study "Name" you will discover it's a reputation and not writings.
That depends on the context.

Here the context is Joel 2. It is God's actual name by which he is called.
 
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SkyWriting

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That depends on the context.

Here the context is Joel 2. It is God's actual name by which he is called.

"The reputation of" the name given, in your context example.
All of scripture is not word based but is idea based.
That's how you can read an English version of the original
and still claim to know anything.

God's message that I AM, existed before man did.
 
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Dave-W

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"The reputation of" the name given, in your context example.
All of scripture is not word based but is idea based.
That's how you can read an English version of the original
and still claim to know anything.
And if we go with "reputation," (which I do not agree with) how would pre-1500 ad Native Americans know of the reputation of the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob? Or Yeshua/Jesus His son???
 
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hedrick

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"Jesus answered, 'I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.'" John 14:6
Remember, Jesus was speaking here as the Logos. The Logos is the only to the Father. We don't all see Jesus directly, the way the disciples did who this passage is really addressed to.

I don't believe Jesus directly addresses the question of unreached people, or worse, people for whom the Gospel seems to represent evil (e.g. Jews who were persecuted by Christians). But according to John 1, the Logos has been with us from the beginning, and thus would be with Native Americans and everyone else.

To say that the Way only started in 3 BC would be contrary to the whole message of John.
 
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Ignatius the Kiwi

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You have a logic problem going on, you agree Jesus is the only way to heaven and God, yet you don't comprehend how those who don't know Christ who is God, but are reasonably nice people will go to hell.
So do you really believe the gospel of Christ?

I admitted the tension between the two positions with my first post. I don't know the answer. Now you are claiming to know the answer, that those who not only reject Christ, but lack knowledge (they had no access to) are damned utterly by God for their sins.

I've asked about three times if you can demonstrate this is a reasonable position. You haven't even attempted to justify this theological belief from a moral standpoint. What does God expect of people who have no knowledge of him at all, to just die in their sins?
 
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sdowney717

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I admitted the tension between the two positions with my first post. I don't know the answer. Now you are claiming to know the answer, that those who not only reject Christ, but lack knowledge (they had no access to) are damned utterly by God for their sins.

I've asked about three times if you can demonstrate this is a reasonable position. You haven't even attempted to justify this theological belief from a moral standpoint. What does God expect of people who have no knowledge of him at all, to just die in their sins?
Do you believe the scriptures?
Do you believe what Paul writes in 2 Thessalonians 1?
8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Galatians 4
28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise.
29 But, as he who was born according to the flesh then persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, even so it is now.
30 Nevertheless what does the Scripture say? “Cast out the bondwoman and her son, for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.”
31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman but of the free.

Your sounding less like a Christian and more like a humanist.
 
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Ignatius the Kiwi

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Do you believe the scriptures?
Do you believe what Paul writes in 2 Thessalonians 1?
8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Galatians 4
28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise.
29 But, as he who was born according to the flesh then persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, even so it is now.
30 Nevertheless what does the Scripture say? “Cast out the bondwoman and her son, for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.”
31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman but of the free.

Your sounding less like a Christian and more like a humanist.

The constant quotations of scripture which do not address the question directly aren't an engagement of my central concern (which you seem to dismiss as illegitimate, if so tell me why it is illegitimate by justifying your position).

Nevertheless i will bite. Is it reasonable to assume Paul is speaking about everyone when he speaks of "those who did not obey the gospel," including those who have not heard it? They are rightly condemned for not believing in a Gospel they never had a chance to hear? At least the other position, that people are condemned for sins alone, is more reasonable, but here you are demanding the impossible of people.

The Galatians metaphor doesn't actually address this either since Paul identifies the Children of Hagar with the Jews of Jerusalem who have heard of Christ and the Gospel but reject it. Paul here isn't concerned with the salvation of those with no saving knowledge of Christ but with the Church's relationship to those Jews who reject Christ or who insist on following Judaism.

As to the charge of being humanist, I don't mind that label if it puts me in the realm of More or Erasmus, though I don't compare to either. Still, you need to actually answer the problem, which you have refused to do, just quoting whatever scripture you think is vaguely related to the topic. Not a good argument theologically. Why, should it be considered good, righteous or just that those who never had a chance to repent (upon hearing the Gospel) are damned completely or irrevocably for something outside of their control?
 
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sdowney717

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The constant quotations of scripture which do not address the question directly aren't an engagement of my central concern (which you seem to dismiss as illegitimate, if so tell me why it is illegitimate by justifying your position).

Nevertheless i will bite. Is it reasonable to assume Paul is speaking about everyone when he speaks of "those who did not obey the gospel," including those who have not heard it? They are rightly condemned for not believing in a Gospel they never had a chance to hear? At least the other position, that people are condemned for sins alone, is more reasonable, but here you are demanding the impossible of people.

The Galatians metaphor doesn't actually address this either since Paul identifies the Children of Hagar with the Jews of Jerusalem who have heard of Christ and the Gospel but reject it. Paul here isn't concerned with the salvation of those with no saving knowledge of Christ but with the Church's relationship to those Jews who reject Christ or who insist on following Judaism.

As to the charge of being humanist, I don't mind that label if it puts me in the realm of More or Erasmus, though I don't compare to either. Still, you need to actually answer the problem, which you have refused to do, just quoting whatever scripture you think is vaguely related to the topic. Not a good argument theologically. Why, should it be considered good, righteous or just that those who never had a chance to repent (upon hearing the Gospel) are damned completely or irrevocably for something outside of their control?

'At least the other position, that people are condemned for sins alone, is more reasonable, but here you are demanding the impossible of people. '

All have sinned, God says, all souls are mine, the soul that sins shall die.
All who are condemned are condemned for sin, and in Acts 17, God makes a command,

30 Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent, 31 because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead.”

So God does no longer overlook times of ignorance. He commands all men everywhere to repent and believe in His Son. Not repenting , not believing in the Son is sin, it is disobedience to the command of God. It is not unreasonable. In Romans 2, the law of God is written on the hearts of all gentiles, and they know right from wrong behavior. None can escape their sins except by Christ. In His name is preached the forgiveness of sin.

And for unbelievers, God makes their sin utterly sinful, God gives them over to an unregenerate mind which makes them add sin to sin. And their whole situation goes from bad to worse to horrendous. And people who approve of other peoples sins, are also adding sin to sin. Such as supporting people who continue in their sins, not warning them of the judgement of God on them for their sin. I don't mean you have to tell everyone you meet, but everyone has some situation that arises where they had opportunity to warn and they did not. I have family that supports homosexual behavior of others, they say God loves them and they will not be judged by God for it. Those people go to church too, and they do not hear that they have to repent of their sin, what they hear is God loves them and do not be concerned.

This same idea of yours, that good people can go to heaven without Christ, they also believe. And they get angry if I say otherwise. My sister in Law's son rejected Christ many years ago, She also says there is no condemnation for sexual immorality. When you tell her what Christ says, she says it is only words attributed to Christ, so she nullifies the Word in her mind, and really gets angry. She is Episcopalian, a regular church goer.

Paul said you only have to warn anyone once or twice, then your done.
 
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Ignatius the Kiwi

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'At least the other position, that people are condemned for sins alone, is more reasonable, but here you are demanding the impossible of people. '

All have sinned, God says, all souls are mine, the soul that sins shall die.
All who are condemned are condemned for sin, and in Acts 17, God makes a command,

30 Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent, 31 because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead.”

So God does no longer overlook times of ignorance. He commands all men everywhere to repent and believe in His Son. Not repenting , not believing in the Son is sin, it is disobedience to the command of God. It is not unreasonable. In Romans 2, the law of God is written on the hearts of all gentiles, and they know right from wrong behavior. None can escape their sins except by Christ. In His name is preached the forgiveness of sin.

And for unbelievers, God makes their sin utterly sinful, God gives them over to an unregenerate mind which makes them add sin to sin. And their whole situation goes from bad to worse to horrendous. And people who approve of other peoples sins, are also adding sin to sin. Such as supporting people who continue in their sins, not warning them of the judgement of God on them for their sin. I don't mean you have to tell everyone you meet, but everyone has some situation that arises where they had opportunity to warn and they did not. I have family that supports homosexual behavior of others, they say God loves them and they will not be judged by God for it. Those people go to church too, and they do not hear that they have to repent of their sin, what they hear is God loves them and do not be concerned.

This same idea of yours, that good people can go to heaven without Christ, they also believe. And they get angry if I say otherwise. My sister in Law's son rejected Christ many years ago, She also says there is no condemnation for sexual immorality. When you tell her what Christ says, she says it is only words attributed to Christ, so she nullifies the Word in her mind, and really gets angry. She is Episcopalian, a regular church goer.

Paul said you only have to warn anyone once or twice, then your done.

A few things. i never said good people go to heaven without Christ. In fact I said just the opposite in my very first post. I recognize the need for Christ and that when Christ is preached and subsequently accepted we are being rescued from our sins. Christ is not insignificant in the equation here. What you seem to have trouble understanding is that I don't think God blatantly condemns someone for not knowing his son (as in complete ignorance). This i admitted is a tension, but the alternative is worse.

What is the alternative? It is God putting people in multiple rooms. In one room he offers the message of his son. To the other rooms the message has not been arrived yet. You seem to be saying that the people who have not heard of the message in the room are condemned for not following Christ, when they had no chance at all to follow Christ (since they had never been offered or heard of him).

Why is this reasonable? Why does God demand knowledge from someone and ascent from someone when both things were impossible attain for the ignorant? You seem to be confusing our conversation with people who reject Christ after having heard the message but we are hear talking about those who have never heard the Gospel or never had a chance. We could surmise that there have been many children, born in the middle of Africa/Asia and the middle east away from civilization who died knowing nothing. They are condemned on your view, which I do find abhorrent.

So, why is your God justified in demanding faith in Christ from those who never heard or are unable to express such faith? (We could extend this to the retarded, infants/the aborted). Yes we are all sinners and most people generally recognize that, but what is the solution for those who will never have the chance to hear Christ preached? Apparently, they should just wallow in their sin, since they are utterly abandoned by God who hates them.
 
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sdowney717

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A few things. i never said good people go to heaven without Christ. In fact I said just the opposite in my very first post. I recognize the need for Christ and that when Christ is preached and subsequently accepted we are being rescued from our sins. Christ is not insignificant in the equation here. What you seem to have trouble understanding is that I don't think God blatantly condemns someone for not knowing his son (as in complete ignorance). This i admitted is a tension, but the alternative is worse.

What is the alternative? It is God putting people in multiple rooms. In one room he offers the message of his son. To the other rooms the message has not been arrived yet. You seem to be saying that the people who have not heard of the message in the room are condemned for not following Christ, when they had no chance at all to follow Christ (since they had never been offered or heard of him).

Why is this reasonable? Why does God demand knowledge from someone and ascent from someone when both things were impossible attain for the ignorant? You seem to be confusing our conversation with people who reject Christ after having heard the message but we are hear talking about those who have never heard the Gospel or never had a chance. We could surmise that there have been many children, born in the middle of Africa/Asia and the middle east away from civilization who died knowing nothing. They are condemned on your view, which I do find abhorrent.

So, why is your God justified in demanding faith in Christ from those who never heard or are unable to express such faith? (We could extend this to the retarded, infants/the aborted). Yes we are all sinners and most people generally recognize that, but what is the solution for those who will never have the chance to hear Christ preached? Apparently, they should just wallow in their sin, since they are utterly abandoned by God who hates them.

Your totally in conflict with your own words.
No one gets to heaven without Christ you say.
Then you say God won't condemn people for being ignorant about Christ.

God puts people in rooms, well sort of, by circumstance, some people get to hear the gospel, but some by their circumstance do not. God has set times, seasons, national boundaries. And in Acts 16 when the apostles wanted to preach in some places, the Spirit prevented them from entering. God has His will worked out through circumstances.

If you research my posts, you will see I don't believe in infant or young children being condemned. As a calvinist, I know God regenerates and saves them, scripture says that too. What happens to people as they age, they sin consciously, choosing to do evil and wicked things against the law of God that He has written in their hearts. There are no good people.

John 3, ALL MUST BE BORN AGAIN to see-perceive and enter the kingdom of God without exception.
A Calvinist knows we are born again according to the will of God, not the will of the man, (everyone else seems to believe that). Being born again is according to God's will and and for some He does not will that to occur, as He does not will them to know the truth. Just like what happened circumstantially in Acts 16, as an example, God had other plans.

3 Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

4 Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?”

5 Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”
 
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Holoman

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Of course people can be saved without hearing the name Jesus Christ. To suggest otherwise is patently ridiculous. Is Moses burning in hell because he didn't know Jesus? What about Elijah?

Look no further than the book of Job. He wasn't even a Jew yet he was described as a Godly man.

We can all come to know God if we seek him out. Jesus sacrifice was for everyone, even those that had never heard of him, and his grace can extend to anyone he wishes.
 
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sdowney717

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Of course people can be saved without hearing the name Jesus Christ. To suggest otherwise is patently ridiculous. Is Moses burning in hell because he didn't know Jesus? What about Elijah?

Look no further than the book of Job. He wasn't even a Jew yet he was described as a Godly man.

We can all come to know God if we seek him out. Jesus sacrifice was for everyone, even those that had never heard of him, and his grace can extend to anyone he wishes.
Those are all old testament examples before Christ came incarnated as a man.
And all of those people were under covenant and or having a relationship with God.

TODAY, God has spoken to man by His SON.
And it is by His Son that we know God, and that is the only way.
 
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sdowney717

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Hebrews 1 New King James Version (NKJV)
God’s Supreme Revelation
1 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds; 3 who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, 4 having become so much better than the angels, as He has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

John 8:23-25 New King James Version (NKJV)
23 And He said to them, “You are from beneath; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. 24 Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.”

25 Then they said to Him, “Who are You?”

And Jesus said to them, “Just what I have been saying to you from the beginning.
 
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creslaw

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We know that before Jesus Christ all Gentile people were judged by their conscience (Romans 2:14-15, Acts 17:30).

It is true that since the atonement we can only enter into a personal relationship with God through Jesus Christ. The condemnation of God is on those who hear and reject the Gospel but those who have never heard the Gospel have never rejected it. The principle Paul taught was that without knowledge of God's requirements, a person was not guilty (Romans 7:7-9) even though knowledge of Him as the Creator was revealed through creation (Romans 1:20).
 
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Annie Proclivite

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The American native is in the same situation as every other people which did not know Christ thanks to geography or time. The Bible seems to say that they are lost without faith in him, but as was already noted by another poster, this is something that only God knows, and we might as well not stew over it.

No, they were not of God.
 
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