The Pastor King (New)

Chinchilla said:

Paul said they which preach the gospel should live of it like Levi lived of priesthood .

Problem is they don't preach the gospel or preach different one .

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Yes , brother , you are right : they do not preach the true gospel : and that is a mighty big problem !!

truefiction1 said:

Who's hiding? We're just believing Christ and doing as He says to do.

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You , sadly , are a puppet of the pope : try just following God's word not preinterpreted by any man but only his spirit : 1 John 2(27) .

Chinchilla said:

But selling prophecy packages for "gift" of 99$ is easier .

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Answer not a fool according to his folly lest thou also be like unto him !

John tower said:

You , sadly , are a puppet of the pope : try just following God's word not preinterpreted by any man but only his spirit : 1 John 2(27) .

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The pope isn't a member of the Church that I'm a member of. He therefor has no jurisdiction or authority over what I believe or how I practice what I believe. If I did as you said, however, I'd most likely fall victim to one of the many spirits out there that are not the Holy Spirit of God. So, thanks, but no thanks.

Okay so this is a good time to summarize.

The claim is that the church was a gathering of two or more in Christ's name, seated in a circle, or in a position where no one was King (a round table conference is one where no one is a chairman, sits in a superior place).

So if anyone contributes, it is an equal contribution, rather than where a pastor preaches and the congregation must say "Amen".

Now if X says, "I want to share a revelation I received after praying for daily bread, which is that the works which are burned up refer to doctrine", how will the others test if this revelation is made of straw and wood, or gold and other precious material?

Wordkeeper said:

Okay so this is a good time to summarize.

The claim is that the church was a gathering of two or more in Christ's name, seated in a circle, or in a position where no one was King (a round table conference is one where no one is a chairman, sits in a superior place).

So if anyone contributes, it is an equal contribution, rather than where a pastor preaches and the congregation must say "Amen".

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First, if one is Sola Scriptura or if they believe the Bible is their sole authority on all spiritual matters, then they will seek to worship God according to how the Bible tells us and not as how man tells us. That is what it really comes down to here. Nowhere can the "Pastor King Church Model" be seen in Scripture. On the contrary, it speaks against it. For Jesus says, "Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them. But it shall not be so among you:" (Matthew 20:25-26). Also, most traditional churches (I have attended) do not seek to really help you to follow Jesus Christ. There is no gathering every week to help the poor on the streets or to spread the gospel. There is no prayer session to live holy lives or to pray for your enemies. They are all about putting on a show and dazzling you with good music and a feel good sermon. You may hear about Jesus and how to receive Him as your Savior, but that is about it (really). You may also hear about some guilt trip sermon on how they need to tithe more to their church, too. But we know this is to cover the cost of an expensive building and an expensive education that they really did not need to have. Churches today are milk and no meat.

Second, it is a proven fact that small groups are able to be intimate with each other better and they are able to learn and grow together better.

Three, the standard for truth for every believer in any gathering (Whether it be a small group at a house or just two believers at a coffee shop) should be the Word of God. Jesus Christ is the foundation upon which the church builds upon. But not everyone follows the same Jesus. Some attempt to add their own rules or ways to worship or follow Jesus. Going to church every Sunday at a traditional church is not what Jesus did. We are told to follow Jesus and He did things to help others and to love them greatly. Today's churches are about programs. They are not about actually helping you to follow Jesus and or to live holy. How can they help a person to live holy? They can't. Most of them teach the dreaded doctrine of OSAS (or Once Saved Always Saved) or they teach the Free Will Baptist type belief (That denies OSAS and yet still says you can sin and still be saved as long as you have a belief on Jesus). Most of these churches will say: We do not need to worry about obeying the commands of Jesus. Yet, Jesus says if you love me, keep my commandments.

You said:

Now if X says, "I want to share a revelation I received after praying for daily bread, which is that the works which are burned up refer to doctrine", how will the others test if this revelation is made of straw and wood, or gold and other precious material?

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The works (that are the building materials) in 1 Corinthians 3 are not talking revelations or prophecy or just possessing a doctrine a person had. Works have to do with actually physically doing something good for the Lord Jesus Christ (With Him being the foundation or sole focus or reason you are doing that particular good work). Good works are things like spreading the gospel message, helping the poor, praying for your enemies, being loving in your actions and words with others on a regular daily basis, and in walking holy. The weaker materials that are burned up are things that a believer does for the Lord Jesus Christ, but they are not exactly the kind of good works that the Lord is seeking exactly. For example: A believer may think it is good to be a good witness at their job. But while Christ does not forbid us to work at jobs, he does not call us to work at a job so we can be a witness. He told his disciples to go out two by two and to knock on doors (essentially).

Anyways, you want to know who will actually lead in a house church gathering when it comes to proper doctrine or not (or if a believer is doing the right thing or not): This would be the Word of God. For the Word by the leading of the Spirit is our guide on all spiritual matters. Many who attend church think that you cannot learn God's Word without going to a traditional church. But John says,

"But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him." (1 John 2:27).

Jason0047 said:

First, if one is Sola Scriptura or if they believe the Bible is their sole authority on all spiritual matters, then they will seek to worship God according to how the Bible tells us and not as how man tells us. That is what it really comes down to here. Nowhere can the "Pastor King Church Model" be seen in Scripture. On the contrary, it speaks against it. For Jesus says, "Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them. But it shall not be so among you:" (Matthew 20:25-26). Also, most traditional churches (I have attended) do not seek to really help you to follow Jesus Christ. There is no gathering every week to help the poor on the streets or to spread the gospel. There is no prayer session to live holy lives or to pray for your enemies. They are all about putting on a show and dazzling you with good music and a feel good sermon. You may hear about Jesus and how to receive Him as your Savior, but that is about it (really). You may also hear about some guilt trip sermon on how they need to tithe more to their church, too. But we know this is to cover the cost of an expensive building and an expensive education that they really did not need to have. Churches today are milk and no meat.

Second, it is a proven fact that small groups are able to be intimate with each other better and they are able to learn and grow together better.

Three, the standard for truth for every believer in any gathering (Whether it be a small group at a house or just two believers at a coffee shop) should be the Word of God. Jesus Christ is the foundation upon which the church builds upon. But not everyone follows the same Jesus. Some attempt to add their own rules or ways to worship or follow Jesus. Going to church every Sunday at a traditional church is not what Jesus did. We are told to follow Jesus and He did things to help others and to love them greatly. Today's churches are about programs. They are not about actually helping you to follow Jesus and or to live holy. How can they help a person to live holy? They can't. Most of them teach the dreaded doctrine of OSAS (or Once Saved Always Saved) or they teach the Free Will Baptist type belief (That denies OSAS and yet still says you can sin and still be saved as long as you have a belief on Jesus). Most of these churches will say: We do not need to worry about obeying the commands of Jesus. Yet, Jesus says if you love me, keep my commandments.



The works (that are the building materials) in 1 Corinthians 3 are not talking revelations or prophecy or just possessing a doctrine a person had. Works have to do with actually physically doing something good for the Lord Jesus Christ (With Him being the foundation or sole focus or reason you are doing that particular good work). Good works are things like spreading the gospel message, helping the poor, praying for your enemies, being loving in your actions and words with others on a regular daily basis, and in walking holy. The weaker materials that are burned up are things that a believer does for the Lord Jesus Christ, but they are not exactly the kind of good works that the Lord is seeking exactly. For example: A believer may think it is good to be a good witness at their job. But while Christ does not forbid us to work at jobs, he does not call us to work at a job so we can be a witness. He told his disciples to go out two by two and to knock on doors (essentially).

Anyways, you want to know who will actually lead in a house church gathering when it comes to proper doctrine or not (or if a believer is doing the right thing or not): This would be the Word of God. For the Word by the leading of the Spirit is our guide on all spiritual matters. Many who attend church think that you cannot learn God's Word without going to a traditional church. But John says,

"But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him." (1 John 2:27).

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So you´re saying that the works will be burnt up, proved wrong, with Scripture. I agree:

Jeremiah 23:25 I have heard what the prophets said, that prophesy lies in my name, saying, I have dreamed, I have dreamed.

26 How long shall this be in the heart of the prophets that prophesy lies? yea, they are prophets of the deceit of their own heart;

27 Which think to cause my people to forget my name by their dreams which they tell every man to his neighbour, as their fathers have forgotten my name for Baal.

28 The prophet that hath a dream, let him tell a dream; and he that hath my word, let him speak my word faithfully. What is the chaff to the wheat? saith the Lord.

29 Is not my word like as a fire? saith the Lord; and like a hammer that breaketh the rock in pieces?

30 Therefore, behold, I am against the prophets, saith the Lord, that steal my words every one from his neighbour.

31 Behold, I am against the prophets, saith the Lord, that use their tongues, and say, He saith.

However, in return, I will also use Scripture to prove that the works are the works done to edify, to perfect, to complete the church, even if it consists of only two persons:


1 Corinthians 3:10According to the grace of God which was given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building on it. But each man must be careful how he builds on it. 11For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13each man’s work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man’s work. 14If any man’s work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. 15If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

The whole of 1 Cor 3 deals with doctrine.

Wordkeeper said:

So you´re saying that the works will be burnt up, proved wrong, with Scripture. I agree:

Jeremiah 23:25 I have heard what the prophets said, that prophesy lies in my name, saying, I have dreamed, I have dreamed.

26 How long shall this be in the heart of the prophets that prophesy lies? yea, they are prophets of the deceit of their own heart;

27 Which think to cause my people to forget my name by their dreams which they tell every man to his neighbour, as their fathers have forgotten my name for Baal.

28 The prophet that hath a dream, let him tell a dream; and he that hath my word, let him speak my word faithfully. What is the chaff to the wheat? saith the Lord.

29 Is not my word like as a fire? saith the Lord; and like a hammer that breaketh the rock in pieces?

30 Therefore, behold, I am against the prophets, saith the Lord, that steal my words every one from his neighbour.

31 Behold, I am against the prophets, saith the Lord, that use their tongues, and say, He saith.

However, in return, I will also use Scripture to prove that the works are the works done to edify, to perfect, to complete the church, even if it consists of only two persons:


1 Corinthians 3:10According to the grace of God which was given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building on it. But each man must be careful how he builds on it. 11For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13each man’s work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man’s work. 14If any man’s work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. 15If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

The whole of 1 Cor 3 deals with doctrine.

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No. It is talking about work and not having a certain set of beliefs alone.

"I had to feed you with milk, not with solid food, because you weren’t ready for anything stronger. And you still aren’t ready,..." (1 Corinthians 3:2).

The Corinthians were carnal still because they were boasting to be a part of a particular person's ministry. They needed solid food like being able to discern between good and evil so they can take the proper right actions (and not the wrong actions by saying they are of Apollos, etc.).

"But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil." (Hebrews 5:14).

The building materials (in 1 Corinthians 3) are the works of the believer.

8 "And both will be rewarded for their own hard work.
9 For we are both God’s workers. And you are God’s field. You are God’s building."
(1 Corinthians 3:8-9).

"His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord." (Matthew 25:23).

"We work wearily with our own hands to earn our living. We bless those who curse us. We are patient with those who abuse us. We appeal gently when evil things are said about us. Yet we are treated like the world’s garbage, like everybody’s trash—right up to the present moment." (1 Corinthians 4:12-13).

"For the Kingdom of God is not just a lot of talk; it is living by God’s power." (1 Corinthians 4:20).

"Now, a person who is put in charge as a manager must be faithful." (1 Corinthians 4:2).

"And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;" (Hebrews 5:9).

Jason0047 said:

No. It is talking about work and not having a certain set of beliefs alone.

"I had to feed you with milk, not with solid food, because you weren’t ready for anything stronger. And you still aren’t ready,..." (1 Corinthians 3:2).

The Corinthians were carnal still because they were boasting to be a part of a particular person's ministry. They needed solid food like being able to discern between good and evil so they can take the proper right actions (and not the wrong actions by saying they are of Apollos, etc.).

"But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil." (Hebrews 5:14).

The building materials (in 1 Corinthians 3) are the works of the believer.

8 "And both will be rewarded for their own hard work.
9 For we are both God’s workers. And you are God’s field. You are God’s building."
(1 Corinthians 3:8-9).

"His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord." (Matthew 25:23).

"We work wearily with our own hands to earn our living. We bless those who curse us. We are patient with those who abuse us. We appeal gently when evil things are said about us. Yet we are treated like the world’s garbage, like everybody’s trash—right up to the present moment." (1 Corinthians 4:12-13).

"For the Kingdom of God is not just a lot of talk; it is living by God’s power." (1 Corinthians 4:20).

"Now, a person who is put in charge as a manager must be faithful." (1 Corinthians 4:2).

"And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;" (Hebrews 5:9).

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But the immediate context of 1 Cor 3 is about doctrine: Paul laid a strong foundation, the believers must finish their statement of faith (temple of God) with gold not chaff...

Others agree. in fact Fee is on the mark when he states:

Quote
With Paul's own concern in view, and in light of the context of the argument as a whole, one may rightly argue, therefore, for Paul 'gold, silver, and costly stones' represent what is compatible with the foundation, the gospel of Jesus Christ and Him crucified; what will perish is sophia in all of its human forms.

Gordon D. Fee, The First Epistle to the Corinthians, NICNT (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1987),49-50.


Sophia meaning human understanding.

@LoveofTruth:

Good to see you, brother.

I love discussing and reading on this important biblical topic. I am glad we can agree on this one, my friend. It is so important these days to gather in fellowship the right way instead of the wrong way.

You may be interested in this recent post of mine here in another thread. It brings up a topic of concern these days for us Christians. Many are not even defining properly what it means to be a "practicing Christian" even. Some (like Barna Group) think church attendance (in a big building every week) is a part of the criteria of being a practicing Christian. I find this to be very disturbing.

Anyways, God bless you, dear brother.
I hope you are doing well in the Lord (as always).

Sincerely,

~ Jason.

Albion said:

Sounds like you are drawing our attention to certain doings of a minority of pastors who are abusing their calling, that's all.

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A minority?

Cat Loaf You said:

Paul was doing his job for money and in the evening he was preaching in synagouge to Jews so he was actually doing two jobs , but Apostles were told to not do anything and not even carry money with them but thier need would be provided by God through people they meet and preach gospel to so i don't really know if pastor should get paid or not in modern world .

But these pastors who have private jet and few billion $ for sure not follow Christ but the Devil .

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I think you're very correct. They have private empires.

MyGivenNameIsKeith said:

as I said before, you have to study scriptures, pray, and things that nature to be able to discern who the bad eggs are. I've seen my fair share, but blindly putting the umbrella on the word pastor and accusing people of wrongdoing is the same as doing what you are accusing pastors of doing. I speak openly at church and I'm not the pastor. He is in no way deified or supreme over anything that I see. He is a normal guy like anyone else. He has more study, experience than most others so I listen to what he says. If it isn't biblical, I don't. I constantly search my bible to see if what he says is true. The final authority is the bible. Not the person who speaks. I'm sorry you have had a turbulent past with this issue, and I hope God helps you with it. Personally, I think you have had a bad experience that biases your views and are blindly full of hate and are here to justify that hate according to your own eyes. Don't be hateful.

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Personally I don't think the Scripture is the problem here. I think it's misuse and redefinition of the Scripture. I don't believe what is called pastor these days what the Scripture intends it to be.

MyGivenNameIsKeith said:

Bottom line, there are some bad pastors and there are some good pastors. And the position of a pastor is biblical. Some let the position go to their head and abuse it. It is not a position where one rules, but feeds and shepherds. There is no pastor king, just a bunch of yay-hoos seeking their own glory and tooting their own horn. As I said before, stop accusing people. There are some good pastors. It really stems from your own perception of the word used.
It is used once in Ephesians 4:11.
And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

Ephesians 4 Interlinear
11 2532 [e]
11 kai
11 καὶ
11 and
11 Conj
846 [e]
autos
αὐτὸς
he
PPro-NM3S
1325 [e]
edōken
ἔδωκεν
gave
V-AIA-3S
3588 [e]
tous
τοὺς
some
Art-AMP
3303 [e]
men
μὲν
indeed
Conj
652 [e]
apostolous
ἀποστόλους ,
apostles
N-AMP
3588 [e]
tous
τοὺς
some
Art-AMP
1161 [e]
de
δὲ
moreover
Conj
4396 [e]
prophētas
προφήτας ,
prophets
N-AMP
3588 [e]
tous
τοὺς
some
Art-AMP
1161 [e]
de
δὲ
moreover
Conj
2099 [e]
euangelistas
εὐαγγελιστάς ,
evangelists
N-AMP
3588 [e]
tous
τοὺς
some
Art-AMP
1161 [e]
de
δὲ
moreover
Conj
4166 [e]
poimenas
ποιμένας
shepherds
N-AMP
2532 [e]
kai
καὶ
and
Conj
1320 [e]
didaskalous
διδασκάλους ,
teachers
N-AMP



◄ 4166. poimén ►
Strong's Concordance
poimén: a shepherd
Original Word: ποιμήν, ένος, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: poimén
Phonetic Spelling: (poy-mane')
Short Definition: a shepherd
Definition: a shepherd; hence met: of the feeder, protector, and ruler of a flock of men.
HELPS Word-studies
4166 poimḗn – properly, a shepherd ("pastor" in Latin); (figuratively) someone who the Lord raises up to care for the total well-being of His flock (the people of the Lord).

[4166 (poimḗn) is closely associated with 1066 /Gedeṓn ("to feed the flock"), see Jn 21:15-17.]
NAS Exhaustive Concordance
Word Origin
of uncertain origin
Definition
a shepherd
NASB Translation
pastors (1), shepherd (13), shepherds (4).
Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 4166: ποιμήν
ποιμήν, ποιμένος, ὁ (akin to the noun ποίᾳ, which see: (or from the root meaning 'to protect'; cf. Curtius, § 372; Fick 1:132)), from Homer down; the Sept. for רֹעֶה, a herdsman, especially a shepherd;
a. properly: Matthew 9:36; Matthew 25:32; Matthew 26:31; Mark 6:34; Mark 14:27; Luke 2:8, 15, 18, 20; John 10:2, 12; in the parable, he to whose care and control others have committed themselves, and whose precepts they follow, John 10:11, 14.
b. metaphorically, the presiding officer, manager, director, of any assembly: so of Christ the Head of the church, John 10:16; 1 Peter 2:25; Hebrews 13:20 (of the Jewish Messiah, Ezekiel 34:23); of the overseers of the Christian assemblies (A. V. pastors), Ephesians 4:11; cf. Ritschl, Entstehung der altkathol. Kirche, edition 2, p. 350f; (Hatch, Barnpron Lects. for 1880, p. 123f). (Of kings and princes we find ποιμένες λαῶν in Homer and Hesiod.)

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I don't think the position of pastor is at issue.

truefiction1 said:

That was only temporary, and was never accepted as a permanent situation. We have this condition even today in certain parishes (local congregations), hear and there, while they await the arrival of a new presbyter.

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Why are they without one? You did say waiting for a new one. It used to be pastors generally stayed somewhere for 3 years or so. Generally church literature is on 3 year cycles, too.

LoveofTruth said:

I am not talking about the men individually and this is not a personal issue about certain men. But I am rebuking the very modern role of pastor today and saying that is is not found in scripture, and the function and rule and control that this role imparts to whoever is in it. I am speaking for the commandments of the Lord for his order and body ministry. Body ministry is hindered greatly by the one man pastor ministry over all.

I do not attack godly elders who may have various gifts among them, including apostles, prophets, evangelist, pastors and teachers. But the one man pastor ministry that says in some man made constitutions that the elders are the supportive arm of the pastor and at his direction. is unbiblical and does attack the true elders ministry. All elders and all the body should be free to edify each other as they gather and wait on the Lord. But instead we see a man made tradition that quenches the spirit and hinders body ministry

I am also aware that some will find fault with what I teach based on their wrong understanding of the gifts today and some will not even believe that there are any apostles, or prophets today. But I believe they are very wrong in that as well. So, they may be biased from the start and not be able to understand the body ministry and the five fold ministry gifts given in Ephesians 4:11.

and as far as saying I am not in the spirit of love you are wrong. I have sat in these man made religious forms and wept often for the ministers and the people. I have talked and prayed for many whom I have met and sought to help over the years.

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There has been evidence in my religious history where God used me in various functions (gifts of the Spirit). I was told I should promote them (myself). I said that isn't what they're (gifts) are for.

ace of hearts said:

Why are they without one? You did say waiting for a new one. It used to be pastors generally stayed somewhere for 3 years or so. Generally church literature is on 3 year cycles, too.

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If a pastor passes away, or becomes seriously ill so that he can't perform his duties in the Church, it can often take a little while to get a replacement in place.

LoveofTruth said:

Show me one verse that says all elders and overseers (Bishop is the same word for overseer in greek), that they were all "pastors", and and this goes directly against scripture where Paul said,

"Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead"(Galatians 1:1 KJV)

Notice that Paul was not made an apostle of men or by men. No man is made an apostle, prophet, evangelist, pastor or teacher of men or by men. These are direct gifts from God not from men. As scripture teaches

"8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men....11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;"(Ephesians 4:8,11 KJV)

Notice it is God who give gifts, not men or by man.

So for any man today to go to a so called Bible school or Seminary, Buy his way into a course and take a pastoral course , take a test and then he is now a pastor, and may also get a degree as Master of Divinity" finds no place in the New testament . This is not how a man is made a pastor or apostle or prophet or evangelist or teacher. Isn't it interesting how men can take a pastoral course but not a prophet course or apostle course or evangelist course, for the most part?.

We also read.

"7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal. 8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; 9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; 10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: 11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will."( 1 Cpr 12"7-11 KJV)

The same is said for the five fold gifts of Eph 4:11. No man can give another a gift from themselves. No man can buy his way into such a gift or study his way into it. It is God who gives severally as HE WILLS.

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Personally I don't object to education (growing in knowledge). I do object to where this education my come from. Timothy was instructed both from his mother and Paul. He just didn't get a degree granting an elevated ego and respect. Another was instructed by a man and wife team. I believe I've been instructed by the Holy Spirit. Many will say no because we don't agree. Seminaries are also known as cemeteries.

truefiction1 said:

But not without the laying on of hands to impart the authority to perform any of these ministries within the Church. Christ gave His authority to the Apostles by breathing upon them and sending them out with the power and authority of the Holy Spirit. The Apostles transmitted this power and authority, to certain degrees, to others by the laying on of hands. The power and authority itself is not from men, but from God, but is transmitted only by the sacramental "laying on of hands". The present day practice of setting in place certain training "requirements" for people being considered for ordination is certainly not found in the Bible. A seminary education may not be the best way for a person to be prepared for leadership in the Church either. Their may even be some instances today wherein men have been ordained as "presbyters" without having graduated with a degree from the seminary. The presbyter who presides over the parish (local Church) that I belong to did not go to the seminary as is usually required. He is an older gentleman who is employed in his private practice as a dentist. He has had a minimal of seminary schooling, which he did not go to the seminary for, but did from his own home. But he was prepared for becoming a presbyter by virtue of having served alongside the former one as an ordained deacon for over 25 years. Seminary is set up as a means by which Church leadership can try to safeguard the faithful from improperly prepared leaders.

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Graduating from a cemetery doesn't qualify an individual to lead a body of believers. I was under a man filling the office of pastor who was a psychologist by education. He certainly wasn't a minister of the Gospel. He couldn't grasp why people wouldn't support him. By his interaction with people it would be very difficult to say or prove he wasn't a Christian. His sermons weren't about God or based on the Scripture. He refused prayer. Didn't believe Jesus would or could change an individual's life. He got angry when people would come to me right across the vestibule from him. People would come up to me in public and be very uncomplimentary about him. Being a pastor has become a career path for many and nothing more. That's why small congregations have a hard time securing what they think of as a pastor (read any one willing to fill that position). There is little to no spiritual discernment in the search.