No, we eventually choose Him because He first chose us (John 15:16).
That is, we eventually come into initial faith miraculously (Ephesians 2:8b) because we were predestined to (Acts 13:48b).
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Predestination is based on Free Will
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No, we eventually choose Him because He first chose us (John 15:16).
That is, we eventually come into initial faith miraculously (Ephesians 2:8b) because we were predestined to (Acts 13:48b).
Dorothy Mae
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Not sure that verse is applicable to people outside of the apostles. Did Paul or John tell the believers they did not choose Jesus but he chose them?
No that is not what that verse promises. Says we, the believers, are predestined to be like Jesus. Are all believers like Jesus? No? Means a part of the fulfillment of that lies with us. Predestined means Gods plan. Does not mean set in stone and cannot fail in the lives of some.
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Faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit. You must have the Holy Spirit before you can have faith.
“But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,” (Galatians 5:22)
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Dorothy Mae
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How could Jesus then commend the centurion saying he’d not seen such in all of Israel?
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Dorothy Mae
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That was not the point. You insisted no one can have fatih without the Holy Spirit and I gave an example of someone who did. Ergo, your statment is wrong. That is the point.
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You need to give scripture, not an interpretation, saying faith is not a fruit of the Holy Spirit.
“But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,” (Galatians 5:22)
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Dorothy Mae
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That is NOT what I said. But if you do not know the account of the centurian, I will give it.
"When Jesus heard this, he was amazed and said to those following him, "Truly I tell you, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith."
Did the centurion have the holy spirit? No. The holy spirit was not yet given. Do you need the scripture for that one?
BTW, a fruit of the Holy Spirit is faith. Does not mean that no man had any faith before the Holy Spirit was given. You assume it was. If the scripture says A (faith) comes by the HS. That is what it means. It does not say that only by the HS can a man believe. THis is the mistake you make.
So we have an example of great faith that amazed even Jesus and the Holy Spirit was not given to the man or anyone beyond Jesus and John the B. So the statment you made was incorrect. EIther you can correct your thinking according to the Word, or you can insist your position is correct and the Bible is wrong. That is pretty much all there is. If you refuse correction, then you will be left by the HS in the position you prefer. But it will be more difficult for the HS to correct your thinking in the future, you making your heart unteachable (unable to admit being wrong.) Pride has its price.
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You cannot have true faith without the Holy Spirit. All of the OT saints in Hebrews 11 had faith = the Holy Spirit. Until Pentecost the Spirit was with them. After Pentecost he was in them.
“Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.” (John 14:17)
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Dorothy Mae
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That is really silly. They were filled with the Holy Spirit and that is what the Bible says. There is no "with them" but says filled them. Same as at Pentecost. Dave L, you will not be corrected, it seems. It is only a pity because you will not be given deeper understanding from God. He only gives grace to the humble and the humble want to learn the truth and are not proud.
We are not talking about the world. The Centurion was not of the world. He believed. Was he filled with the HS? No, because it was not yet given. You need to broaden your thinking.
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“Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.” (John 14:17)
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Dorothy Mae
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Dorothy Mae
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So the centurion had the holy spirit even if not given? Why did Jesus complain to the disciples that their faith was too little when the holy spirit had not been given and they could not possibly have faith according to you? You need to expand your thinking according to the Bible.
Where does this say that only those who have the holy spirit have faith? IT talks about the spirit of truth. Where is faith mentioned here?
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Dorothy Mae
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Dave, I would recommend you base your understanding on the scriptural descriptions of faith and the holy spirit and not base your understanding of the scripture from your chosen position. Come to the scripture asking God to show you his view and not which verses support your chosen view.
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Do you have strong faith all the time? Any doubts from time to time? Yet you have the Holy Spirit I assume.
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Dorothy Mae
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What does that have to do with the discussion? The centurion had faith so much so that Jesus wondered at his faith. And he did NOT have the Holy Spirit. Now we can ask how this can be or we can deny the scriptural description. You know, the Bible also says "faith comes by hearing" not "faith comes by the holy spirit" at that point. Hearing. This generates faith at times. Do you deny this?
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“But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,” (Galatians 5:22)
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S.O.J.I.A.
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when did the LORD acquire this knowledge of our free choices?
if the LORD already knew what choices we were going to make, doesn't that make those choices static?
if the LORD already knew what choices we were going to make, doesn't that make those choices static?
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I agree.
But faith is an act of the mind.
Election is by the act of our mind to choose faith.
I also agree.
It is based on our free will to choose faith.
I'm not sure you are interpreting "hate" correctly.
God is love.
Love is not merely something God does. Love is what God is. There is no place for hate in the love of God, otherwise God would be divided against Himself.
I think "hate" in the context of Roman 9 is God detesting the wickedness that Esau would become:
"I have loved Jacob, but Esau I have hated, and I have turned his mountains into a wasteland and left his inheritance to the desert jackals...They will be called the Wicked Land, a people always under the wrath of the LORD." -- (Mal 1:2-4)
So again, God hating/detesting Esau is based on God's foreknowledge of the wickedness that Esau would become.
In my opinion, this is all based on God's foreknowledge of their lack of faith:
"For although they knew God, they neither glorified Him as God nor gave thanks to Him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened...Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, He gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done." -- (Rom 1:20-32)
Those appointed to disobedience and ordained to condemnation are those whom God foreknew would willfully reject faith in Christ.
Those appointed to salvation and ordained to eternal life are those whom God foreknew would willfully accept faith in Christ.
The appointing and ordaining is based on God's foreknowledge of our faith or lack thereof.
I agree.
God always gives us the freedom to accept or reject faith in Christ, and then God response accordingly.
I'm not sure I follow.
John 1:13 says:
"Children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God."
Faith is a gift from God that initially requires the act of acceptance on our part, followed by the act of obedience.
The act of acceptance is the result of our free will, after which we become born-again of God.
The only hand God had in Pharaoh's stubbornness is God's foreknowledge of pharoah's stubbornness and God taking advantage of it to display His power and proclaim His name:
"For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: 'I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.'" -- (Rom 9:17)
God did not cause Pharaoh's stubbornness, God merely used Pharaoh's stubbornness to His advantage.
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If you must choose to believe you don't believe. People who believe don't need to choose. They simply believe. Do you need to choose the chair you sit in it there?
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