Love is a lie

historyprincess710 said:

Exactly, as I said before. Love is action, not emotion. And emotions have no place in Christianity.

Click to expand...

Love is both in my opinion. Either way, emotions are a part of having a relationship with the Lord. The Holy Spirit comforts us. The bible says that the apostles were sorrowful yet always rejoicing. Why would the bible say that?

Holoman said:

Love is a feeling, it isn't an action. I find the assertion quite bizarre. You can't feel without emotion. I can program a robot to give me kisses and affection, but it will never love me, because it is incapable of emotion. Similarly I could pay a woman to live with me, kiss me, marry me. Does she love me by simply carrying out the actions of a loving wife. Of course not.

Click to expand...

Love is an action too. God teaches us many actions that we would take in order to properly love others. His whole doctrine is based on love and it has many actions. Love lays down its life for others, its patient, kind, ect.

A person can not truly love, unless Love has made an abode with them.Then they know Love, and are finally able to love. This is why the commandments are not burdensome. This is how we can love our enemies. This is how we forgive. Anything less than Him is lust in disguise. And yes, love is an action that never ends.

historyprincess710 said:

.... Which brings me back to my main point. True love is a lie. It's the stuff of feel-good fairytales. It's the reason a lot of marriages have fallen apart...

Click to expand...

While I disagree with your thesis, I think you've raised a valid point.

We often quote "God is love". But I remember discussing this with my wise old pastor back in the days when I was still Presbyterian. He remarked "I sometimes wonder if that's true. He seems to write people off pretty easily".

Love is certainly more than a mere emotion. The marriage phrase, "for richer or poorer, in good health or bad" isn't the sort of saccharine syrup we see during wedding ceremonies when years down the track the father loses his job, the house is sold under foreclosure, the wife develops Cystic Fibrosis, the kids start taking drugs, or the neighbours are vicious and evil, and neither parent knows what to do about it. It involves a commitment to someone else, quoted and retained.

In God's case, what is "Love"? He allowed the early Christians to be martyred, He allowed the Viking raids and their psychopathic violence, Genghis Khan's cruelties and massacres, He allowed the Black Death to indiscriminately ravage much of Asia and Europe, He allowed World War I, He allowed World War II, He allowed the Holocaust, the Gulags, and today He allows the massive use of abortion to slaughter His unborn children.

Whatever His "Love" is, it's not soft. He even humiliated His own Son by allowing Him to be scourged and crucified.

So, what does "Love" mean when we talk about God?

Long article, but worth reading.
https://www.skipmoen.com/2008/03/the-grammar-of-love/

historyprincess710 said:

ep, you read right. Love, as we know it, is a big fat lie.

The fact is, emotions in general are unreliable, dangerous, and bad.

Click to expand...

Love is defined differently in Bible .

John 14:15 King James Version (KJV)
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments

Love is not lust .

historyprincess710 said:

And God is only my Lord and Savior, not my friend.

Click to expand...

John 15:15-17 King James Version (KJV)
15 Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.

pat34lee said:

Long article, but worth reading.
https://www.skipmoen.com/2008/03/the-grammar-of-love/

Click to expand...

You're right! It is a long article! I've book marked it, so I'll probably wade through it at length later, sometime....

However it's a word study at it's core, as is clearly shown at the top of the page. The problem with that is like trying to delineate the actual meaning, origin and synonyms of the word "catastrophe" for example, and then trying to make that relevant to someone who has just lost their home and family in a mud-slide.

Or to use another example, when the Black Death visited a village in Christian Europe in the medieval era, and killed a third to a half of the inhabitants, it wouldn't be much good trying to tell them Paul used the term "agape" to describe God's love. "Really?" they'd say. "All right then, now you show us His agape in this situation!!"

Academia doesn't cut it when the rubber hits the road.

historyprincess710 said:

Yep, you read right. Love, as we know it, is a big fat lie.

The fact is, emotions in general are unreliable, dangerous, and bad. Every great society has fallen because they chose what they felt over doing what was right. It's one reason, if not the reason, why our country is in such a mess. In time, every society that goes this way will fall, destined to collapse under its own weight.

I know. "It's about relationship, not rules!" Rules are the foundation of a healthy society. Try going against the rules of your body by not breathing. You'll eventually die.

I know, people are gonna say, "Well, Jesus cried." Jesus was perfect, we are not. He had complete control of himself, we do not. The world pursues emotion, so it's best for us to go the opposite way. Emotion is the reason behind every single sin. Duty and obligation don't care about whether or not you feel like doing it. And sacrifice is always painful. If letting go of something gives you joy, it's not a sacrifice.

Happiness is frivolous and unstable (A Chinese proverb says, "Happiness begets tragedy."), anger is destructive, sadness and fear both paralyze you. Godly love is unemotional. It's meant to produce misery to keep you away from the destructive nature of happiness and sin. If you want happiness, don't become a Christian. Become a Christian only because you love people and want to help them. It leaves no room for love for self. Quite the opposite, it says deny yourself. And like sacrifice, self-denial will always involve pain.

And God is only my Lord and Savior, not my friend.

This is why I appreciate characters like Sherlock Holmes and James Bond. Both know emotion just gets in the way and even gets you killed, one way or another.

The original James Bond is a lot different from how he's popularly viewed. He's a cold assassin who will take you out, even if you're a family man. If that's his job, he's gonna get the job done. He's a man of few words. He's not gonna let some frivolous emotion get in the way of his job. And when he fell in love for the first time, she ended up betraying him. So much for "true love."

Which brings me back to my main point. True love is a lie. It's the stuff of feel-good fairytales. It's the reason a lot of marriages have fallen apart. The reason arranged marriages thrive is because there's no emotion, no love, involved. It's done primarily for the good of the community.

Love in Christianity is always an action, never emotion. Emotions have no place in Christianity, they'll only lead you to sin.

Click to expand...

Love "As we know it" (e.g. the popular view of what love is in society) is a lie. Love itself is not.

"And so we know and rely on the love God has for us. God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them." I John 4:6

Emotions can certainly be misleading and dangerous. One of my favorite books is "Deadly Emotions: Understand the Mind-Body-Spirit Connection That Can Heal or Destroy You" by Don Colbert. He's a counselor which has monitored how emotions not subjected to Christ (bitterness, unforgiveness, jealousy) can cause chaos in one's life and even lead to physical ailments and disease.

But that doesn't mean all emotion is 'bad' - just that humans are very prone to trying to let our emotions lead instead of God. Emotions can be good as well (brotherly affection, selfless love, compassion, mercy, zeal, empathy, etc.)

Our closeness with God is not determined by feelings, though our closeness with God will inevitably bring about feelings and life change.

Those who believe their current feelings determine how closely they are walking with God ("That church camp was amazing! I'm really on fire for God now!) or believe their feelings determine how much God approves of their current direction ("I just feel a peace I've never felt before, this guy/girl must be the one God made for me") or use their feelings to determine how best to worship/serve God ("I feel this is right, so it must be right") have it backwards.

Rather, as we follow on God's paths and repent when falling, then the more we are conformed to Christ. We may feel very down and oppressed at times - this does not mean we are not following God, but rather that we are going through a trial that we should hand over to God as we endure through it. Jesus actually promised us that we will experience suffering and persecution. (Matt 10:46, John 16:33, John 15:20, Acts 14:22, II Tim 3:12, 1 Pet 4:12, etc). The marker of the right path is not "how wonderful do I feel", but whether God is guiding you down it. [Psalm 23]

Feelings will flow from this walk with God, but there is a very mindful component, such as Paul "-learning- to be content" or Jame's admonition to "-consider- it pure joy when you fall into various trials".

Feelings in this manner originate from our hope in God and God's grace, not in the typical human manner of originating from inside ourselves or from outside circumstance.

Likewise, God calls us to use discernment in life situations, and to base our decisions on his commands and guidance (With priority on the command to love everyone, even enemies, with a sacrificial love)!

But it isn't so much that 'emotions' are a problem as that *certain* emotions and unbalanced emotions or emotions given too much weight can be a problem.

"Get rid of all bitterness, rage and anger, outcry and slander, along with every form of malice. Be kind and tender-hearted to one another, forgiving each other just as in Christ God forgave you." Eph 4:31-32

LOVE (agape?) COMMANDED!!

a. #1 = Love God + #2 = Love Neighbor AS SELF...the BIG TWO IN ORDER!...Luke 10: 25-29: Matthew 22: 37-40; Mark 12:30
b. Love "ONE ANOTHER" (believers) as I have loved you...John 13:34-35; John 15; 1 John 4
c. Love Enemies..Sermon on the Mount...the HARD ONE...Matthew 5: 43-48
d. ABIDE in God's Love..1 John; John 15
e. If you Love me, FOLLOW/ (serve) me...Matthew 16: 24-27; Luke 14:25-33; John 12:26
f. If you Love me, OBEY, TRUST etc...and ...Get the "good news" out!..Matthew 28:18-20; Mark 16:15

The GOLDEN RULE "to treat others as I want to be treated" (Matt. 7:12)...good MAN-to-MAN ADVICE...not a COMMAND!

Love languages.....

There are people who provide acts of service out of love
There are people who touch others as an expression of love
There are people who simply spend time with someone as a form of love
There are people who say kind and loving things to others to demonstrate love
There are people who give gifts as an act of love.

Love is everywhere in different forms..

historyprincess710 said:

Yep, you read right. Love, as we know it, is a big fat lie.

The fact is, emotions in general are unreliable, dangerous, and bad. Every great society has fallen because they chose what they felt over doing what was right. It's one reason, if not the reason, why our country is in such a mess. In time, every society that goes this way will fall, destined to collapse under its own weight.

Click to expand...

Since ancient times, love has carried with it multiple connotations. In Greek they had several different terms for love, all of which emphasized a different kind of love. I would argue that the love of scripture (agape) is not to be equivocated with a mere emotional love. Even God gets angry, and yet he does not forget his love for us despite the change in his emotional state.

No, the love spoken of in scripture runs much deeper than your emotional state. Love is a matter of how much you value someone or something, and what you are willing to sacrifice for the person/object of your affection. Jesus taught us that there is no deeper love than to sacrifice yourself to save others. And this is most certainly something we are capable of, and what we are called to do.

This does not mean that there are no emotions. Obviously, if you care about others enough to sacrifice yourself for them - this will naturally cause an emotional attachment. This doesn't mean you will always feel lovey-dovey about people - but it does mean that their well-being and your relationship with them is something important, and thus is capable of evoking emotions from you.

I know, people are gonna say, "Well, Jesus cried." Jesus was perfect, we are not. He had complete control of himself, we do not. The world pursues emotion, so it's best for us to go the opposite way. Emotion is the reason behind every single sin. Duty and obligation don't care about whether or not you feel like doing it. And sacrifice is always painful. If letting go of something gives you joy, it's not a sacrifice.

Click to expand...

Jesus was a man who had to deal with all of our same weaknesses and temptations.

And God is only my Lord and Savior, not my friend.

Click to expand...

Love in Christianity is always an action, never emotion. Emotions have no place in Christianity, they'll only lead you to sin.

Click to expand...

Does not God get angry? sad? happy? We were made in God's image, and emotions are part-n-parcel of that design. If you act blindly on emotion, that can certainly lead to sin. However, emotions also allow us to empathize with others - which is fundamental to any kind of ethics/morality. They further allow for happiness - and God wants us to be happy.

I think you need to go back and study what the scriptures have to say both about love and emotion.

LOVE COMMANDED!!

a. #1 = Love God + #2 = Love Neighbor AS SELF...the BIG TWO IN ORDER!...Luke 10: 25-29: Matthew 22: 37-40; Mark 12:30
b. Love "ONE ANOTHER" (believers) as I have loved you...John 13:34-35; John 15; 1 John 4
c. Love Enemies..Sermon on the Mount...the HARD ONE...Matthew 5: 43-48
d. ABIDE in God's Love..1 John; John 15
e. If you Love me, FOLLOW/ (serve) me...Matthew 16: 24-27; Luke 14:25-33; John 12:26
f. If you Love me, KEEP PRECEPTS, OBEY, TRUST etc...and ...Get the "good news" out!..Matthew 28:18-20; Mark 16:15

The GOLDEN RULE "to treat others as I want to be treated" (Matt. 7:12)...good MAN-to-MAN ADVICE...not a COMMAND!

Matthew 7:12 (all NASB)
“In everything, therefore, treat people the same way you want them to treat you,
for this IS (summarizes?) the Law and the Prophets

#1: LOVE GOD

Matthew 22:37-40
And He (Jesus) said to him (lawyer) ,
A. “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.’
This is the great and foremost commandment.
B The second is like it,
‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’
On these two commandments DEPEND (derive?) the whole (Mosiac) Law and the (OT) Prophets.”

Jesus the God-Man FULFILLED the MOSAIC "Law" and the Prophets.

Matthew 5:17
“Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets;
I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.

Luke 24:44
Now He said to them,
“These are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you,
that all things which are written about Me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled.”

#2: LOVE NEIGHBOR as SELF

Luke 10:25-37...extracts: Parable of the Good Samaritan
And a lawyer stood up and put Him to the test, saying,
“Teacher, what shall I (me, MYSELF) DO to INHERIT eternal life?”...
29 But wishing to justify himself, he (lawyer( said to Jesus, “And who is my NEIGHBOR?”
30 Jesus replied and said..."Parable of the The Good Samaritan"
36 Which of these three do you think PROVED to be a NEIGHBOR to the man who fell into the robbers’ hands?”
37 And he said, “The one who showed MERCY toward him.”
Then Jesus said to him, (YOU) “Go and do the same.”

Where are the words "love" or "works"?
It is a LESSON on how Man should treat Man...even a stranger.
The lawyer wrongly thought he had to DO something to INHERIT God's Grace.

Matthew 19: 16-26...Jesus encounters The Rich Young Ruler's heart (SEE ALSO: Mark 10:17 etc; Luke 18:18 )
16 And someone (The Rich Young Ruler) came to Him (Jesus) and said,
“Teacher, what GOOD THING (works) shall I (myself) DO that I may OBTAIN "eternal (spiritual life"?”
17And He said to him,
“Why are you asking Me about WHAT is good? There is only One WHO is good;
but if YOU wish to enter into (eternal SPIRITUAL) life", keep the (10?) commandments.”
Then he said to Him, “Which ones?”
And Jesus said, (#1 is LOVE GOD...SEE: Deuteronomy 6:5 ; Luke 10:27)
“You shall not commit murder; You shall not commit adultery; You shall not steal; You shall not bear false witness;
Honor your father and mother; and You shall LOVE your NEIGHBOR as yourself.”
The young man said to Him, “All these things I have KEPT; (the Mosaic Law) what am I still lacking?”
21 Jesus said to him,
“If you wish to be COMPLETE (in works), (YOU) go and sell your possessions and give to the poor,
and YOU will have treasure in heaven;
and COME, FOLLOW Me.”
But when the young man heard this statement, he went away grieving; for he was one who owned much property.

And Jesus said to His DISCIPLES,
“Truly I say to you, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven.
Again I say to you, it is easier for a camel (rope?) to go through the eye of a needle,
than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.” (Choose WHICH to serve: God or wealth...Matthew 6:24)
When the disciples heard this, they were very astonished and said,
“Then who can be SAVED?” (from death unto "eternal SPIRITUAL life")
And looking at them Jesus said to them,
“With people (man's works) this is impossible,
but with God all things are possible.”
(God draws/calls and offers Grace through the gift of Spirit-led FAITH / BELIEF)

#2b: SELF

Genesis 1:26
Then God (plural=elohim) said,
“Let Us make man in Our (SPIRITUAL) image,
according to Our (CHARACTER) likeness

Genesis 5:2
He created them male and female, and
He blessed them and
named them Man (MANKIND) in the day when they were created.

Psalm 139:14...I will give thanks to You,
for I am fearfully and wonderfully made;
Wonderful are Your works,
And my soul knows it very well.

Psalm 139:13...For You formed my inward parts; You wove me in my mother’s womb.

Ephesians 4:16
from whom the whole body,
being fitted and held together by what every joint supplies,
according to the proper working of each individual part,
causes the growth of the body for the building up of itself in love.

#3: Love "ONE ANOTHER" (believers) as I have loved you

John 13:34-35.."one another" (Greek = allelon) = mutual,reciprocal,beneficial love among believers
A new commandment I give to you, that
you love "one another", even as I have loved you,
that you also love "one another".
By this all men will know that you are My disciples,(followers,pupils)
if you have love for "one another".”

John 15:12,17 [Disciples’ Relation to Each Other]
“This is My commandment, that you love one another, just as I have loved you....
This I command you, that you love one another.

Romans 12:10
Be devoted to one another in brotherly love;
give preference to one another in honor;

Romans 13:8
Owe nothing to anyone except to love "one another";
for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law.

Galatians 5:13
For you were called to freedom, brethren;
only do not turn your freedom into an opportunity for the flesh,
but through love serve "one another".

Ephesians 4:2
with all humility and gentleness, with patience,
showing tolerance for "one another" in love,

#4: LOVE ENEMIES

Matthew 5:43-48...Jesus' Sermon on the Mount to crowds
43 “You have heard that it was said,
‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’
44 But I say to you,
love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,
45 so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven;(believers)
for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and
sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.
46 For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same?
47 If you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same?
48 Therefore you are to be (TRY to be!) perfect (mature),
as your (EXAMPLE: your) heavenly Father is perfect.(holy and omnibenevolent)

^ I have a migraine reading your post....

I believe the whole point of this thread is romantic love, not in general which your post is clearly about

Bob Crowley said:

You're right! It is a long article! I've book marked it, so I'll probably wade through it at length later, sometime....

However it's a word study at it's core, as is clearly shown at the top of the page. The problem with that is like trying to delineate the actual meaning, origin and synonyms of the word "catastrophe" for example, and then trying to make that relevant to someone who has just lost their home and family in a mud-slide.

Or to use another example, when the Black Death visited a village in Christian Europe in the medieval era, and killed a third to a half of the inhabitants, it wouldn't be much good trying to tell them Paul used the term "agape" to describe God's love. "Really?" they'd say. "All right then, now you show us His agape in this situation!!"

Academia doesn't cut it when the rubber hits the road.

Click to expand...

This is more than just a word study on love.
It goes through 1 Corinthians 13 and breaks it down in Hebrew and Greek.
Love is not a feeling, and not even an action. It is who we are supposed to be.
https://www.skipmoen.com/2008/03/the-grammar-of-love/

LOVE NEVER FAILS.

Soul-searching said:

Action relies on emotion, we act because we feel. If we did not feel we would not act. So there can´t be action without emotion. Just because some people make bad decisions in love does not mean that true love is a lie, it only means that we do not know how to turn away from our ego. If we did we would be masters of true love. That has nothing to do with love but everything to do with us, you can blame us, but not love. After all, love is what we believe in, it´s the core.

Click to expand...

Your right the ego puts conditions on love .Unconditional love is divine love that we can only be experienced through the heart not the mind.Yes emotions energy in motion.

historyprincess710 said:

Yep, you read right. Love, as we know it, is a big fat lie.

Click to expand...

Since we are told God is love (1 Jn 4.8) then you are saying God is a lie.

historyprincess710 said:

Yet like I've said twice before, love is an action in the bible, not an emotion.

Click to expand...

Actually, there are several words for "love" in the bible. In The Hebrew OT you have ahavah, dod and racham. In Greek NT you have phileo, storge, eros and agape. They each have different meanings and applications and most of them are emotional.

We have emotions because God has emotions.

Emotions are unreliable in the extreme. But a sense of duty is hollow. That which is hollow will fall over and turn to dust without warning.

Love-as-duty leads to legalism, and legalism leads to dead faith. You can't will yourself to be loving toward anyone. What you need is a reason to love that is some attribute of the would-be object of love.

It also helps to be realistic. A lot of teaching oversells love as the silver bullet for all evil. The extreme of this position is universal salvation. If you try to imagine Hitler in heaven then you can start to sense the problem with this.

Worse even than love-as-duty and love-as-sentiment is love-as-word. When someone says "I love you" simply because one is expected to say that, meaning nothing by that at all. It doesn't even rise to the level of a proper lie.

Gordon Wright said:

Emotions are unreliable in the extreme.

Click to expand...

Define extreme.

Gordon Wright said:

Emotions are unreliable in the extreme. But a sense of duty is hollow. That which is hollow will fall over and turn to dust without warning.

Love-as-duty leads to legalism, and legalism leads to dead faith. You can't will yourself to be loving toward anyone. What you need is a reason to love that is some attribute of the would-be object of love.

It also helps to be realistic. A lot of teaching oversells love as the silver bullet for all evil. The extreme of this position is universal salvation. If you try to imagine Hitler in heaven then you can start to sense the problem with this.

Worse even than love-as-duty and love-as-sentiment is love-as-word. When someone says "I love you" simply because one is expected to say that, meaning nothing by that at all. It doesn't even rise to the level of a proper lie.

Click to expand...

Interesting perspective. That seems agreeable. Even Jesus wasn't sweet to everyone if you read the Bible.

After living many many years of life. I have observed love is mostly action than emotion.

I believe even Artificial Intelligence would be capable of expressing love.

John Bowen said:

Your right the ego puts conditions on love .Unconditional love is divine love that we can only be experienced through the heart not the mind.Yes emotions energy in motion.

Click to expand...

Loving God with our mind is commanded