What Faith Is.

Dave L · Jul 11, 2018

“Now faith is the substance [hypostasis] of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.” (Hebrews 11:1)

“[Jesus] Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his [God's] person (substance/hypostasis) .....” (Hebrews 1:3)

Jesus was the express image of God's substance (hypostasis) just as faith is the substance (hypostasis) of things to come.

It is a fruit of the Holy Spirit that is in itself evidence of what it represents as existing.

“But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,” (Galatians 5:22)

A common example would be if you pray for a need. And the Holy Spirit develops faith in your heart, you know your answer or provision is on its way. Faith represents it and enables you to believe God is providing it.

Tayla · Jul 11, 2018

Dave L said:
“Now faith is the substance [hypostasis] of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.” (Hebrews 11:1)

If you pray for something and look forward with hope to God granting it; that is faith. You don't have to possess faith in order for God to grant it.

Richard T · Jul 13, 2018

I like how you point out that the faith is part of the fruit of the spirit. I assumed it was faithfulness as the NASB version lists. The greek is pistis, though not being a Greek scholar I suppose it could be either. Still, I have to think there are differences between faith and the other fruits of the spirit. Faith comes by hearing. Nowhere that I know of does joy or patience come by hearing (or praying and fasting as Jesus told the disciples that could not cast out the demon). Additionally, faith (pistis) is listed as a gift of the spirit. Faith also must preexist or simultaneously exist when being born again. You would not have the fruit of the spirit at that time except for faith as far as I can deduce. Also, there is no Hebrews chapter dedicated to heroes of joy or other fruits of the spirit. Sure there are a few examples like the patience of Job or how David danced in joy etc. Still, faith in God, must hold a special place on what everything else rests on.

I read some of your other posts in another thread on Faith in faith. You are right that someone might not have the faith for healing (or for other things you might need) but WOF from my understanding teaches that as you confess and meditate scriptures, at some point the faith may come and you have moved over into believing you have received. Still, even in healing services, men like Hagin, sometimes stop in the prayer line and speak additional words so that the person in line may better receive. Some however, might trick themselves into thinking they have the faith though and really they do not. Looking forward to any thoughts you might have concerning faith.

Also, I never knew hypostasis was in Heb 1:3, could it be translated as "substance" there?

Dave L · Jul 13, 2018

Richard T said:
I like how you point out that the faith is part of the fruit of the spirit. I assumed it was faithfulness as the NASB version lists. The greek is pistis, though not being a Greek scholar I suppose it could be either. Still, I have to think there are differences between faith and the other fruits of the spirit. Faith comes by hearing. Nowhere that I know of does joy or patience come by hearing (or praying and fasting as Jesus told the disciples that could not cast out the demon). Additionally, faith (pistis) is listed as a gift of the spirit. Faith also must preexist or simultaneously exist when being born again. You would not have the fruit of the spirit at that time except for faith as far as I can deduce. Also, there is no Hebrews chapter dedicated to heroes of joy or other fruits of the spirit. Sure there are a few examples like the patience of Job or how David danced in joy etc. Still, faith in God, must hold a special place on what everything else rests on.

I read some of your other posts in another thread on Faith in faith. You are right that someone might not have the faith for healing (or for other things you might need) but WOF from my understanding teaches that as you confess and meditate scriptures, at some point the faith may come and you have moved over into believing you have received. Still, even in healing services, men like Hagin, sometimes stop in the prayer line and speak additional words so that the person in line may better receive. Some however, might trick themselves into thinking they have the faith though and really they do not. Looking forward to any thoughts you might have concerning faith.

Also, I never knew hypostasis was in Heb 1:3, could it be translated as "substance" there?

Thanks for the reply and interesting thoughts. Faith comes by hearing but it is also an attitude of the heart when occupied by the Holy Spirit. That is, a christian will be a faithful employee apart from scripture because it is the nature of the New Birth. I think many try to get their minds to believe through positive confession, thinking faith resides at that level. But faith in the heart speaks positively about God's provision because it is evidence that the provision exists.

Richard T · Jul 14, 2018

Dave L said:
Thanks for the reply and interesting thoughts. Faith comes by hearing but it is also an attitude of the heart when occupied by the Holy Spirit. That is, a christian will be a faithful employee apart from scripture because it is the nature of the New Birth. I think many try to get their minds to believe through positive confession, thinking faith resides at that level. But faith in the heart speaks positively about God's provision because it is evidence that the provision exists.

I agree that positive confession is not enough. However, when you confess God's word over your circumstance, you might not have faith at first but doing it for days could bring the faith as the word start to take hold and you get a new revelation of it.

Dave L · Jul 14, 2018

Richard T said:
I agree that positive confession is not enough. However, when you confess God's word over your circumstance, you might not have faith at first but doing it for days could bring the faith as the word start to take hold and you get a new revelation of it.

This works up to a point but sometimes faith is not there (we ask amiss) and positive confession will not conjure it up. In some cases it can be a type of self imposed brainwashing leading to bad results. But if you experience Christ and his provisions in your heart, your speech will reflect this.

hhodgson · Jul 14, 2018

Richard T said:
(To Dave L) I read some of your other posts in another thread on Faith in faith. You are right that someone might not have the faith for healing (or for other things you might need) but WOF from my understanding teaches that as you confess and meditate scriptures, at some point the faith may come and you have moved over into believing you have received. Still, even in healing services, men like Hagin, sometimes stop in the prayer line and speak additional words so that the person in line may better receive. Some however, might trick themselves into thinking they have the faith though and really they do not. Looking forward to any thoughts you might have concerning faith.

This is awesome! You are correct about confess (the Word) and meditate (the Word). "Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God" (Romans 10:17). Paul could have used only one "hearing" only. The extra "hearing" puts much more emphasis on it to continue the "hearing" until your confident in your faith that you have believed that you received.

Those additional words that Hagin and others (including myself) use is exhorting them with faith filled words to encourage building up their faith to "only believe" (Mark 5:36). It's not unusual that some may return to the healing line, OR ....to receive right in the church pew. My wife intended to enter a healing line for healing of her knees but she received as she arose out of her seat and God saw her faith.

Si_monfaith · Aug 21, 2018

jesus316 said:
If you pray for something and look forward with hope to God granting it; that is faith. You don't have to possess faith in order for God to grant it.

Faith is the assurance that God has granted a blessing through the perfect sacrifice of Lord Jesus.

Si_monfaith · Aug 24, 2018

Our faith in the Lord given by the Lord makes us do works like sing, seek the Lord, confess, walk etc but not to earn healing but ti receive the healing free of cost.

We do nothing.

hhodgson · Aug 25, 2018

Si_monfaith said:
Our faith in the Lord given by the Lord makes us do works like sing, seek the Lord, confess, walk etc but not to earn healing but ti receive the healing free of cost.

We do nothing.

Just a little curious. How does one receive faith for healing (even though it's free), by doing nothing?

hhodgson · Aug 25, 2018

[QUOTE="Dave L, post: 72928819, member: 410957] Jesus was the express image of God's substance (hypostasis) just as faith is the substance (hypostasis) of things to come. It is a fruit of the Holy Spirit that is in itself evidence of what it represents as existing.

“But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,” (Galatians 5:22) A common example would be if you pray for a need. And the Holy Spirit develops faith in your heart, you know your answer or provision is on its way. Faith represents it and enables you to believe God is providing it.[/QUOTE]

Hi Dave L... (close, but not quite)

----> (The Word) has to get into your heart (spirit)... by hearing and meditating on it day and night. "Faith COMES by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God" (Romans 10:17)

Joshua 1:8 (NET)
This law scroll ----> (The Word) must not leave your lips! You must memorize it day and night so you can carefully obey all that is written in it. Then you will prosper and be successful.

Deuteronomy 30:14 ([URL='https://biblehub.com/net/deuteronomy/30.htm']NET)[/URL]
[URL='https://biblehub.com/deuteronomy/30-14.htm'][URL='https://biblehub.com/deuteronomy/30-14.htm'][URL='https://biblehub.com/deuteronomy/30-14.htm']For the thing ----> (The Word) is very near you--it is in your mouth and in your mind so that you can do it. (obey and fulfill)[/URL][/URL][/URL]

[URL='https://biblehub.com/deuteronomy/30-14.htm'][URL='https://biblehub.com/deuteronomy/30-14.htm']

[/URL][/URL]

[/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL]

Si_monfaith · Aug 26, 2018

hhodgson said:
Just a little curious. How does one receive faith for healing (even though it's free), by doing nothing?

View attachment 238966

Faith is a free gift. 1 timothy 1:14. No humans can produce it. Acts 3:16.

Faith does works through people as it did walk the centurion in to the Lord and make confessions about Him.

Si_monfaith · Aug 26, 2018

hhodgson said:
Just a little curious. How does one receive faith for healing (even though it's free), by doing nothing?

View attachment 238966

Faith is a free gift. 1 timothy 1:14. No humans can produce it. Acts 3:16.

Faith does works through people as it did walk the centurion to the Lord and make confessions about Him.

Dave L · Aug 26, 2018

hhodgson said:
[QUOTE="Dave L, post: 72928819, member: 410957] Jesus was the express image of God's substance (hypostasis) just as faith is the substance (hypostasis) of things to come. It is a fruit of the Holy Spirit that is in itself evidence of what it represents as existing.

“But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,” (Galatians 5:22) A common example would be if you pray for a need. And the Holy Spirit develops faith in your heart, you know your answer or provision is on its way. Faith represents it and enables you to believe God is providing it.

Hi Dave L... (close, but not quite)

----> (The Word) has to get into your heart (spirit)... by hearing and meditating on it day and night. "Faith COMES by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God" (Romans 10:17)

Joshua 1:8 (NET)
This law scroll ----> (The Word) must not leave your lips! You must memorize it day and night so you can carefully obey all that is written in it. Then you will prosper and be successful.

Deuteronomy 30:14 (NET)
For the thing ----> (The Word) is very near you--it is in your mouth and in your mind so that you can do it. (obey and fulfill)

So, the Holy Spirit (does) develop faith in your heart, (thru)... your hearing, and hearing, and meditating on ----> (The Word), in that you must believe.... to receive (in your heart). The Word has to get into your heart so that (then) the Holy Spirit can help further developing what you put into it.

It's called... "Being not conformed to this present world, but be transformed (continuously) by the renewing of your mind with (The Word) so that you may test and approve what is the will of God--what is good and well-pleasing and perfect" (Romans 12:2)

View attachment 238973

[/QUOTE]
This is more of a brainwashing yourself into believing with the flesh. If God gives you faith, you cannot help but believe. True, it comes from hearing the word, but faithfulness is a condition of the born again heart that naturally responds in faith. When faith is not present, all the brainwashing in the world will not conjure it up.

hhodgson · Aug 28, 2018

Brainwashing is a term perceived in a negative way by most people and situations. But you know what, I THINK our brains could actually do with a bit of a washing sometimes... with the Word of God. The good news is: (with the Word of God), we can "reprogram" or "renew our mind" (Romans 12:2), and replace any negative, limiting beliefs for positive contributing ones. I think I'll call it positive brainwashing.

Was my (brainwashing) from the "hearing" and "meditating" and "memorizing" God's Word (day and night)... to the point of believing and receiving the "revelation knowledge" of the Word... IN your spirit, and then... renewing your mind with the understanding OF that knowledge. Our new born-again spirit is just as perfect as Jesus's spirit. Absolutely, nothing more needs to be done for eternity in your spirit. But, the soul (mind, will, and emotions), and your body hasn't changed (yet), so your mind needs to be continually renewed from God's Word.

Someone said, "I'd rather "brainwash" my children Christian than have the world "brainwash" them otherwise! So, what the heck, I am completely brainwashed by the Holy Spirit. Yes my mind has been cleansed. Praise The Lord!! So, in a positive sense, are we all being (somewhat) brainwashed?

Dave L · Aug 28, 2018

hhodgson said:
Brainwashing is a term perceived in a negative way by most people and situations. But you know what, I THINK our brains could actually do with a bit of a washing sometimes... with the Word of God. The good news is: (with the Word of God), we can "reprogram" or "renew our mind" (Romans 12:2), and replace any negative, limiting beliefs for positive contributing ones. I think I'll call it positive brainwashing.

Was my (brainwashing) in my post here, from the "hearing" and "meditating" and "memorizing" God's Word (day and night)... to the point of believing and receiving the "revelation knowledge" of the Word... IN your spirit, and then... by renewing your mind with the understanding OF that knowledge now IN your spirit. Our new born-again spirit is just as perfect as Jesus's spirit. Absolutely, nothing more needs to be done for eternity in your spirit. But, the soul (mind, will, and emotions), and your body hasn't changed (yet), so your mind needs to be continually renewed from God's Word.
[URL='https://biblehub.com/deuteronomy/30-14.htm'][URL='https://biblehub.com/deuteronomy/30-14.htm'][URL='https://biblehub.com/deuteronomy/30-14.htm']
[URL='https://biblehub.com/deuteronomy/30-14.htm'][URL='https://biblehub.com/deuteronomy/30-14.htm'][URL='https://biblehub.com/deuteronomy/30-14.htm'][URL='https://biblehub.com/deuteronomy/30-14.htm'][URL='https://biblehub.com/deuteronomy/30-14.htm'][URL='https://biblehub.com/deuteronomy/30-14.htm'][URL='https://biblehub.com/deuteronomy/30-14.htm']So, in a positive sense, are we all being (somewhat) brainwashed? So, what the heck, I AM completely brainwashed by the Holy Spirit. Yes, my mind has been cleansed and receives continually cleansed. Praise The Lord!! Someone said, "I'd rather "brainwash" my children Christian ...than have the world brainwash them otherwise!
[URL='https://biblehub.com/deuteronomy/30-14.htm'][URL='https://biblehub.com/deuteronomy/30-14.htm'][URL='https://biblehub.com/deuteronomy/30-14.htm'][URL='https://biblehub.com/deuteronomy/30-14.htm'][URL='https://biblehub.com/deuteronomy/30-14.htm'][URL='https://biblehub.com/deuteronomy/30-14.htm'][URL='https://biblehub.com/deuteronomy/30-14.htm'][URL='https://biblehub.com/deuteronomy/30-14.htm']
[URL='https://biblehub.com/deuteronomy/30-14.htm'][URL='https://biblehub.com/deuteronomy/30-14.htm'][URL='https://biblehub.com/deuteronomy/30-14.htm'][URL='https://biblehub.com/deuteronomy/30-14.htm'][URL='https://biblehub.com/deuteronomy/30-14.htm'][URL='https://biblehub.com/deuteronomy/30-14.htm'][URL='https://biblehub.com/deuteronomy/30-14.htm'][URL='https://biblehub.com/deuteronomy/30-14.htm'][URL='https://biblehub.com/deuteronomy/30-14.htm'][URL='https://biblehub.com/deuteronomy/30-14.htm'][URL='https://biblehub.com/deuteronomy/30-14.htm'][URL='https://biblehub.com/deuteronomy/30-14.htm'][URL='https://biblehub.com/deuteronomy/30-14.htm'][URL='https://biblehub.com/deuteronomy/30-14.htm'][URL='https://biblehub.com/deuteronomy/30-14.htm'][URL='https://biblehub.com/deuteronomy/30-14.htm'][URL='https://biblehub.com/deuteronomy/30-14.htm']

[URL='https://biblehub.com/deuteronomy/30-14.htm']View attachment 239310

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The problem is hypocrisy. You must think and act like a Christian to become one. But it is God who first converts people into Christians and then all they think, say or do comes from their new heart.

now faith · Aug 29, 2018

Dave L said:
The problem is hypocrisy. You must think and act like a Christian to become one. But it is God who first converts people into Christians and then all they think, say or do comes from their new heart.

This is Lordship Salvation I believe.

It seems that I may have a different viewpoint.
Faith in Christ is given after we make a freewill choice to accept salvation.
We accept Christ by Faith.
Prior to salvation we are driven by Free Will.
Even before sin there was the Free Will choice to disobey .
If God first converted people to salvation Christ would not have need to become our atonement.
This should clear things up:

1 Corinthians 2: 14. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Who is the natural man?
It is the the unsaved , it is who we were before giving our heart to Christ by our own Free Will.

Ephesians 4: 17. This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind, 18. Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart: 19. Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness. 20. But ye have not so learned Christ; 21. If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus: 22. That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; 23. And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; 24. And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

You must first put on Christ.
Our rightousness is worthless to God.
It is the rightousness of Christ that God sees in us not of our own doing.
Grace is knowing you are lost by the Holy Spirit giving the natural man conviction.
We must do one of two things, one is to believe in Christ to repentance or to walk away from the Grace of God.

Some people struggle with God's Grace and finally submit to His will, and some do not.

Please read our statement of Faith, otherwise you are teaching in violation of Fourm rules.

now faith · Aug 29, 2018

Word of Faith Statement of Faith:
1. We believe that when we repent, confess with our mouths that Jesus is Lord, and believe in our hearts that God raised Him from the dead, that we are now justified by His blood, and shall be saved from wrath through Him. (Romans 5:9, Romans 10:9-10)

2. We believe that we are new creatures made righteous with Christ's righteousness, which is not of ourselves. We are not "unworthy new creatures" nor "sinners saved by grace". We were once sinners, but now we are saved by grace; our spirits born again, created in righteousness and true holiness; Sons of God, and joint heirs with Jesus.(2 Corinthians 5:17, Philippians 3:9, Ephesians 2:5-8, Ephesians 4:24, Galatians 4:6, Romans 8:17)

Dave L · Aug 29, 2018

now faith said:
This is Lordship Salvation I believe.

It seems that I may have a different viewpoint.
Faith in Christ is given after we make a freewill choice to accept salvation.
We accept Christ by Faith.
Prior to salvation we are driven by Free Will.
Even before sin there was the Free Will choice to disobey .
If God first converted people to salvation Christ would not have need to become our atonement.
This should clear things up:

1 Corinthians 2: 14. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Who is the natural man?
It is the the unsaved , it is who we were before giving our heart to Christ by our own Free Will.

Ephesians 4: 17. This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind, 18. Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart: 19. Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness. 20. But ye have not so learned Christ; 21. If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus: 22. That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; 23. And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; 24. And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

You must first put on Christ.
Our rightousness is worthless to God.
It is the rightousness of Christ that God sees in us not of our own doing.
Grace is knowing you are lost by the Holy Spirit giving the natural man conviction.
We must do one of two things, one is to believe in Christ to repentance or to walk away from the Grace of God.

Some people struggle with God's Grace and finally submit to His will, and some do not.

Please read our statement of Faith, otherwise you are teaching in violation of Fourm rules.

I'm only saying Faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit. Just as an apple tree must already exist before apples develop, one must already have the Holy Spirit by God's grace, before faith, its fruit, develops.
“But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,” (Galatians 5:22)

now faith · Aug 29, 2018

We still cannot ignore being saved by grace through faith.
Even the natural man can have Faith to recieve Christ.
Sinners come to the point of knowing they are missing the love of Christ.
If they were prepared for Salvation with God giving them the will to accept salvation, Christ would not need die for us.it is the rightousness of Christ that God sees not our rightousness.
Your point is God makes man rightous prior to salvation.through works.
It is a puritian
principle that is a form of Calvinism.

I honestly do not know how a person could interpet God's Will and make a case for Calvin

What Faith Is.

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