Yes, that is my thought, as well. There is a significant difference between mysticism and metaphysics.
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Holy Communion, Real Presence or merely symbolic?
- Thread starter UtahOrBust
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Yes, that is my thought, as well. There is a significant difference between mysticism and metaphysics.
yeshuaslavejeff
simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua
Jesus Himself told His disciples in person that wherever 2 or 3 are gathered in His Name to talk about Him,
HE IS THERE WITH THEM - "REAL PRESENCE", not flesh, not blood, not fake, not artificial, not contrived, and no effort to exert to make Him be there with them, and no worries nor doubts that He is there with them.......
Jesus Himself told His disciples that they must eat His body and drink His blood (both anti-God's Word, to their thinking and in true knowledge of Scripture- TORAH),
and MANY OF HIS DISCIPLES LEFT HIM THEN - saying
this is too hard for us to accept. They did not wait for Jesus' Explanation and Understanding - they left,
and
Jesus let them go without trying to stop them
and without trying to get them back .
Jesus asked the other disciples who were still with Him,
"WILL YOU LEAVE ALSO ? "
They said no, no one else has the words that lead to eternal life.
So THEN TO THEM HE EXPLAINED - (so they would not ever think of violation of TORAH, ever)
MY WORDS that I SPEAK TO YOU (re including body and blood)
ARE SPIRIT, AND LIFE.
No need to warp or twist JESUS' WORDS to make TORAH breakers of anyone.
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Albion
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Although the term Real Presence might, if seen for the first time, cold, be interpreted any number of ways...
as it is used in Christian theology, it specifically EXCLUDES what you are using it to mean here.
RP means really present IN THE ELEMENTS (bread and wine), not present in principle or in the room or with the believers in some mystical way, etc.
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yeshuaslavejeff
simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua
I know/ knew that traditional meaning is different than the meaning I use going just by Jesus' Own Words, yes.
I mean as Jesus does - when He says He is here, He is here,
including wherever 2 or 3 are gathered in His Name.
That is real, is truth, and is right , in line with His Own Word.
I.e. when I say He is present, it is because He is present , in reality, in truth, simply, as He says vs tradition.
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Albion
Facilitator
Sure, there is no reason you cannot take that POV.
Most Christians believe in the Real Presence--or at least the churches that they belong to do--but it is not as though there are not Anabaptists and others who do not take his words as spoken at the Last Supper at face value in the way that the early church did.
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Albion
Facilitator
Actually, it is. If not, this would not be the most divisive issue separating the various Christian denominations with about a half- dozen different interpretations among them. But go ahead and tell us what you mean by truly, really, and factually.
Will it drip blood if poked with a fork and go putrid in a matter of hours if not consumed? That's what happens with human flesh.
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yeshuaslavejeff
simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua
Sorry? question mark.... "at face value" (as you put it) may be the problem - as if Jesus could violate TORAH "at face value",
when Jesus clearly said "My Words Are Spirit, and They Are Life"
thus NOT violating Yahweh's Word at any point at all, ever.
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tdidymas
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"This is the new covenant in my blood" - that is, "this cup" - I suppose you don't see that the wider context of scripture shows the figurative nature of the statement? Paul in 1 Cor. 11 does not refer to the bread and cup as some mystical union, but rather as a proclamation of faith.
Even the term 'sacrament' begins its definition as "a visible sign..." Therefore the rite itself is a sign of something. Either the grace from God is there or not there, and can be increased or not, depending on the exercise (or not) of the faith of the person involved the rite. Therefore, the elements themselves do nothing at all for the person partaking in the rite. The only spiritual activity which appropriates the grace in the rite is the faith of the person partaking and the knowledge of the truth regarding Christ. Thus, it is a proclamation as Paul stated.
TD
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