Eternal Security - Is the Gospel

1stcenturylady said: ↑
This whole thread is beginning to break my heart. What I want to know is what denominations teach what Doug and Free teach. Clearly they have never experienced the freedom from sin that the baptism of the Holy Spirit provides. You keep up the good work and don't be swayed by their false teachings, and I will do the same.

justbyfaith said:

Amen; and thank you for the encouragement to keep on keeping on.

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What breaks my heart are professing believers who don't believe what Jesus has said so clearly about eternal security.

The doctrine of eternal security isn't a denominational issue. Far from it. It's a biblical issue and biblical doctrine, as has been very patiently been shown.

It's the OSNAS view that is driven by FEAR, emotions, and failure to accept what Jesus said in John 10:28.

1stcenturylady said:

I never mentioned 1 Corintians 3. I quoted Galatians 5 and Revelation 21 #2705

The sins of the flesh in Galatians 5 both you and Free patted each other on the back with "WINNER" saying we can commit those sins and only lose rewards! Hogwash!!!

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'Hogwash' is RIGHT! Neither of us EVER said what you are falsely claiming here.

"only lose rewards"? Really. Apparently you've been asleep at the wheel a lot. I've pointed out that God's discipline for His children is PAINFUL, per Heb 12:11. And I have given actual examples of believers being turned over to Satan for physical death. Sound like a mere slap on the wrist here? Wise up.

I've got news for you, Paul says to Christians, the wages of sin is death! THAT is the lake of fire, and it isn't anywhere near heaven!

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Where do you get that 'death' in Rom 6:23 refers to the lake of fire? On what basis?

We're all born spiritually dead, so committing sins doesn't kill us spiritually. We're already dead. Eph 2.

When believers sin, they break fellowship with the Father and Son. In the parable of the prodigal, Jesus used figurative language to describe this breaking of fellowship (between father and son) as a "death" or "lost". Many people ignorantly confuse these words with dying spiritually or becoming lost. The idiot son wasn't described as either dead or lost BEFORE he left. Only after. So that whole assumption falls apart.

When he left, fellowship was lost between father and son. And as restored when the son confessed and repented (returned) to the father. He wasn't "born again" when he returned. He was restored.

1stcenturylady said:

Justifying sin? How do you twist what I said into that!

Especially when both you and Free say you can commit murder and sorcery without repentance and still go to heaven - you just lose rewards!

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The ONLY REASON anyone shall never perish is because they were given the gift of eternal life.

Eternal life is given to those who believe. John 3:15,16, 36, 5:24, 6:47, 11:25-27, 1 John 5:11, 13.

So no believer CAN EVER end up perishing. This doesn't justify any sin, btw, no matter how much you're trying to make it that.

We are all accountable to God for all of our behaviors and words. But nothing we do will EVER cause us to perish.

If you don't like that, please take it up with God. It's His plan, from beginning to end.

Bible2+ said:

No, there are other conditions (e.g. Luke 13:3).

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Like Pharaoh, the more you reject what Jesus said about never perishing (eternal security) the harder your heart becomes.

No, for He expects us to know more than one verse (Matthew 4:4).

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Sure He does. Of course. But it only takes ONE verse to make a point and teach a principle, like eternal security.

And John 10:28 is the single BEST verse to communicate eternal security.

In fact, Jesus expects us to BELIEVE EVERY VERSE. Unlike what you are doing.

And no verse contradicts any other verse.

FreeGrace2 said:

No, lunacy is reading the very clear words of Jesus about recipients of eternal life never perishing and still believing that recipients of eternal life MAY perish.

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And lunacy is also in thinking that you are a recipient of eternal life when in fact, you are not. Because as long as you think you already have eternal life you will not seek the Lord for that salvation; and may never become a true recipient of eternal life.

If you do not have eternal life but think that you do, your only hope is to begin to understand that you don't have eternal life; that is the only way you will see your need so that you can go to the Lord for real salvation. If you think you are saved when you are not, you may go on merrily into hell thinking that you were saved the whole time; until the very moment that you reach your destination and receive a rude awakening as you begin to burn in its unholy fires.

2 Peter 1:10-11, Wherefore the rather, brethtren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

FreeGrace2 said:

1stcenturylady said: ↑
This whole thread is beginning to break my heart. What I want to know is what denominations teach what Doug and Free teach. Clearly they have never experienced the freedom from sin that the baptism of the Holy Spirit provides. You keep up the good work and don't be swayed by their false teachings, and I will do the same.

What breaks my heart are professing believers who don't believe what Jesus has said so clearly about eternal security.

The doctrine of eternal security isn't a denominational issue. Far from it. It's a biblical issue and biblical doctrine, as has been very patiently been shown.

It's the OSNAS view that is driven by FEAR, emotions, and failure to accept what Jesus said in John 10:28.

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What you're missing is that there are those who believe in eternal security who do not believe about it as you do; we do not perceive it as greasy grace ("sloppy agape"); we do not turn the grace of our God into lasciviousness (Jude 1:3-4) by saying that one can fall away from faith and righteousness and still be saved, as you do. We understand and know that if someone falls away, their faith was not a heart faith that was living and saving (Romans 10:10), but only a nominal, shallow, or lukewarm faith (Revelation 3:16) that resulted in mere emotional experience (Luke 8:13) or mere mental assent to the tenets of the gospel (John 5:39-40), without any real heart change wherein they become new creatures in Christ (2 Corinthians 5:17). Therefore if someone falls away from faith in Jesus Christ, they do not "continue to be saved"...the reality is that they were never saved in the first place.

FreeGrace2 said:

"only lose rewards"? Really. Apparently you've been asleep at the wheel a lot. I've pointed out that God's discipline for His children is PAINFUL, per Heb 12:11. And I have given actual examples of believers being turned over to Satan for physical death. Sound like a mere slap on the wrist here? Wise up.

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Yes, it is a mere slap on the wrist compared to an eternity in the lake of fire. Where is your head?

justbyfaith said:

And lunacy is also in thinking that you are a recipient of eternal life when in fact, you are not.

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Sure. I agree. There are a lot of people who think they will enter heaven, when, in fact, they will not. Jesus gives us a glimpse of a conversation between Himself and a crowd of people on Judgment Day.

Their appeal to enter heaven is based on what they did for Jesus. Sounds good, huh.

Yet, Jesus told them, "I NEVER knew you", proving that what they totally missed was believing in Him for eternal life. Instead, they believed in their own works to get them in. If any of them had EVER believed in Him for eternal life, He couldn't have said "I NEVER knew you", because He gives eternal life to those who believe, per John 10:28. And such people will NEVER perish. Yet the crowd in Matt 7:21-23 most certainly WILL perish. Again proving that they never believed, and therefore, never received the gift of eternal life.

Because as long as you think you already have eternal life you will not seek the Lord for that salvation; and may never become a true recipient of eternal life.

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Here's what John said about that:
1 John 5:13 - I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.

I hope these words have cleared up whatever may be fuzzy to you.

If you do not have eternal life but think that you do, your only hope is to begin to understand that you don't have eternal life; that is the only way you will see your need so that you can go to the Lord for real salvation.

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And where do you think that would begin? By reading John's gospel, specifically.

If you think you are saved when you are not, you may go on merrily into hell thinking that you were saved the whole time; until the very moment that you reach your destination and receive a rude awakening as you begin to burn in its unholy fires.

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Right. Just as the crowd in Matt 7:21-23.

2 Peter 1:10-11, Wherefore the rather, brethtren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

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Do you understand the significance between an "entrance" vs an "abundant entrance"?

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
"only lose rewards"? Really. Apparently you've been asleep at the wheel a lot. I've pointed out that God's discipline for His children is PAINFUL, per Heb 12:11. And I have given actual examples of believers being turned over to Satan for physical death. Sound like a mere slap on the wrist here? Wise up.

justbyfaith said:

Yes, it is a mere slap on the wrist compared to an eternity in the lake of fire.

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There is nothing to "compare". The lake of fire was designed for satan and his angels. And those human beings who failed to receive the free gift of eternal life, which has been offered to everyone. So they have no excuse.

But, it's clear that you'd RATHER see children of God die spiritually AGAIN, just to satisfy your warped sense of "justice", and complete failure to understand what grace is.

Where is your head?

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In the Bible, where yours should be as well.

Your anti-grace posture is quite disturbing.

On another line of thinking: Elihu said to Job, Because there is wrath, beware lest he take you away with his stroke: then a great ransom cannot deliver thee. Job 36:18.

Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. Philippians 2:12.

Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: 2 Peter 1:10.

Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith: prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates? 2 Corinthians 13:5.

These scriptures are saying essentially the same thing, using different words.

FreeGrace2 said:

But, it's clear that you'd RATHER see children of God die spiritually AGAIN, just to satisfy your warped sense of "justice", and complete failure to understand what grace is.

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And it is clear that you accuse me of having an attitude that is contrary to the attitude of anyone who is truly born again.

I would not rather see people die spiritually, but I see that it is a possibility and that the possibility is diminished if someone is warned of the possibility of falling away so that they can be careful to avoid any pitfalls that might increase the probability of it happening.

I do not misunderstand grace. The Bible teaches us in Hebrews 3:12-15 that we need to exhort one another daily lest there be in any one of us an evil heart in departing from the living God because of the deceitfulness of sin.

Sin is a deceitful thing: and it has also deceived you into thinking you will be okay if you work or do iniquity because you think you have some kind of experience of "believing" when you deny that believing will bring about a change in the life of the one who believes (see 2 Corinthians 5:17). I conclude that you yourself think that you have believed without any kind of change of life: and this is not a biblical opinion to have (see Ezekiel 36:25-27). Or perhaps you think that you believed for a season and then fell away, but that you are still saved because of your ungodly interpretation of John 10:28. This is again sin being deceitful in your life: it leads you to think that you are saved as a worker of iniquity; and the Bible teaches us that those who do or work iniquity are not saved; they are not recipients of eternal or everlasting life (Matthew 7:23, Matthew 13:41-42).

FreeGrace2 said:

I certainly explained the principle of rewards clearly, so your question is silly. I quoted 2 Tim 2:12 and Rom 8:17 to show the parallels and which believers will reign with Christ (a reward for faithfulness, i.e.: enduring) and which will be denied that reward. I also showed from 3 parallel passages that the phrase "not inherit the kingdom" is equivalent to "have no inheritance IN the kingdom", which shows that believers will be IN the kingdom, but have NO inheritance there.

Now, I've just explained it all again, in summary.

So you have no excuse for not understanding the principle.

And, Rev 21:8 is clearly about the unbelieving, since that word is found at the beginning of the verse. John was describing what unbelievers do.

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I understand what you believe. It is heinous.

1stcenturylady said:

Justifying sin? How do you twist what I said into that!

Especially when both you and Free say you can commit murder and sorcery without repentance and still go to heaven - you just lose rewards!

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Never said you just lose rewards. God disciplines His children. He does not reject them.
He is merciful to our unrighteousness, and our sins and lawless deeds He remembers no more.
He does not deal with us according to our sins. See Hebrews 8 and Psalms 103.

Saying sins you commit are "just imperfections" is justifying sin.
Look at Leviticus and see God's requirements for the sacrifice. No flaws whatsoever.
Jesus had no imperfections, He was perfect.
And you say we can have imperfections and be accepted. I say hogwash.
God accepts perfection only and that is only given by being in Jesus Christ.

1stcenturylady said:

I never said they were even sins known to us that we are committing them. If you KNOW something to be sin, then if you are a Christian you just don't do them. But unknown sins we commit while walking in the Spirit are covered under the blood, just as 1 John 1:7 says.

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Now that is just plain foolish that the Holy Spirit would lead you to commit a sin.

Bible2+ said:

Christians are commanded to fear God (1 Peter 2:17, Luke 12:5, Hebrews 12:28-29; 2 Corinthians 7:1, Ephesians 5:21, Acts 9:31). They must remain in fear of being cut off the same as non-Christians if they do not continue in God's goodness (Romans 11:20-22, Luke 12:45-46). They must work out their own ultimate salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12b; 1 Peter 1:17, Romans 2:6-8), knowing the terror of the future judgment of Christians by Jesus Christ (2 Corinthians 5:10-11), at His Second Coming, when some Christians will end up losing their salvation because of unrepentant sin (Luke 12:45-46, Hebrews 10:26-29), or unrepentant laziness (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a), or apostasy (Mark 8:35-38, Hebrews 6:4-8).

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You clearly don't understand what it means to fear God. God wants us to respect Him, not be afraid of Him.
Unbelievers should be afraid, for they are subject to His wrath. God's children are not subject to God's wrath.

justbyfaith said:

Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. Philippians 2:12.

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Psalms 2:11 Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling.
We should know the God whom we serve, He is great and awesome. But don't think for one second that He wants us to be afraid of Him.
Isaiah 43:1 But now thus saith the LORD that created thee, O Jacob, and he that formed thee, O Israel, Fear not: for I have redeemed thee, I have called thee by thy name; thou art mine.

Luke 12:32 Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom.

Revelation 1:17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:

God does not want us to be afraid of Him, respect Him, be in awe of Him.

justbyfaith said:

I would not rather see people die spiritually, but I see that it is a possibility and that the possibility is diminished if someone is warned of the possibility of falling away so that they can be careful to avoid any pitfalls that might increase the probability of it happening.

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Then tell them the Truth.
Tell them how much God loves them.
Tell them in great detail what Jesus Christ did for them.
Show them how the Holy Spirit is a Comforter, not a convicter of His children.

When we understand how much God loves us, we will love Him.
If someone feels that they can just spurn that love, they either don't understand what has been done for them or they are not His.
Either way, explain more of what Jesus Christ's sacrifice entails.

justbyfaith said:

Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. Philippians 2:12.

Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: 2 Peter 1:10.

Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith: prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates? 2 Corinthians 13:5.

These scriptures are saying essentially the same thing, using different words.

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Which is what, in your opinion?

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
But, it's clear that you'd RATHER see children of God die spiritually AGAIN, just to satisfy your warped sense of "justice", and complete failure to understand what grace is.

justbyfaith said:

And it is clear that you accuse me of having an attitude that is contrary to the attitude of anyone who is truly born again.

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Anyone who thinks rebellious children should be separated from their Father for eternity, in spite of what Jesus said, do have an attitude that is contrary to Scripture.

I would not rather see people die spiritually

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What you don't understand is that no one dies spiritually twice. All are born spiritually dead to begin with. After one is born AGAIN, they CANNOT die spiritually.

If that were true, then the words "ETERNAL life" would be meaningless.

But Peter said believers have been born AGAIN of IMPERISHABLE seed. Just like Jesus saying those He gives eternal life shall never PERISH.

2 ways to say the same thing.

but I see that it is a possibility and that the possibility is diminished if someone is warned of the possibility of falling away so that they can be careful to avoid any pitfalls that might increase the probability of it happening.

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Yes, the Bible does teach that regenerated people can "fall away".

But, IF that includes losing salvation, then the Bible is internally contradicted.

Which is impossible.

I do not misunderstand grace.

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I believe you do.

The Bible teaches us in Hebrews 3:12-15 that we need to exhort one another daily lest there be in any one of us an evil heart in departing from the living God because of the deceitfulness of sin.

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Yes, and this does NOT mean departing from salvation, or eternal life.

1stcenturylady said:

I understand what you believe. It is heinous.

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Well, I've shown that my beliefs come straight from the Bible, so at least everyone who reads this thread knows EXACTLY what you think of the Bible.

You need a lot of .

FreeGrace2 said:

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
But, it's clear that you'd RATHER see children of God die spiritually AGAIN, just to satisfy your warped sense of "justice", and complete failure to understand what grace is.

Anyone who thinks rebellious children should be separated from their Father for eternity, in spite of what Jesus said, do have an attitude that is contrary to Scripture.


What you don't understand is that no one dies spiritually twice. All are born spiritually dead to begin with. After one is born AGAIN, they CANNOT die spiritually.

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So they are twice dead physically in Jude 1:12? How does that happen?

If that were true, then the words "ETERNAL life" would be meaningless.

But Peter said believers have been born AGAIN of IMPERISHABLE seed. Just like Jesus saying those He gives eternal life shall never PERISH.

2 ways to say the same thing.


Yes, the Bible does teach that regenerated people can "fall away".

But, IF that includes losing salvation, then the Bible is internally contradicted.

Which is impossible.

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There is no internal contradiction; and falling away does mean losing salvation. Show me how it is you think that the Bible is internally contradicted if falling away means losing salvation. I have explained that there are two kinds of faith or believing that is spoken of by the same Greek word, even as the word "love" translated from English to Greek can be translated into four different words based on the context in English, so "believing" and "faith" can mean more than one thing, based on context, when we read it in our Bibles as it is translated "believe" or "faith" from the original Greek, and in the English. We distinguish these two different types of faith, not with different words in Greek or English, but by defining them with adjectives.

There is a nominal, lukewarm, and/or shallow faith (Revelation 3:16), that results only in emotional experience (Luke 8:13) or mental assent to the tenets of the gospel (John 5:39-40, 1 Corinthians 8:1-3); but is not a heart faith that produces righteousness (Romans 10:10) and is tenacious unto the enduring to the end (Hebrews 3:6, Hebrews 3:14, Matthew 10:22, by contrast Luke 8:13).

I believe you do.

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I know that I don't (misunderstand grace).

Yes, and this does NOT mean departing from salvation, or eternal life.

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Your doctrine is deplorable and not according to godliness (see 1 Timothy 6:3, Titus 1:1). For if someone departs from faith in God and righteousness, you are saying that they will not be cast into the furnace of fire for their iniquity, contrary to scripture (Matthew 7:23, Matthew 13:41-42)

Doug Melven said:

Then tell them the Truth.
Tell them how much God loves them.
Tell them in great detail what Jesus Christ did for them.
Show them how the Holy Spirit is a Comforter, not a convicter of His children.

When we understand how much God loves us, we will love Him.
If someone feels that they can just spurn that love, they either don't understand what has been done for them or they are not His.
Either way, explain more of what Jesus Christ's sacrifice entails.

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There are many great preachers in history who have said that men will not appreciate the good news of the gospel unless they hear the bad news first: that they are sinners and that the wages of sin is death (eternal separation from God). People come to know that they are sinners through the law (Romans 3:20, 1 John 3:4). So then, preaching on the requirement is vitally important for people to receive the grace aspect of what scripture teaches.

Also, it is true that the Holy Spirit convicts people of sin because they don't really believe in Jesus (John 16:8-9). So if there is any conviction that you are feeling, consider that it might be because of unbelief on your part.