Eternal Security - Is the Gospel

[justbyfaith]

But He said He wouldn't. It is the promise of the New Covenant that He will not impute sin to. Hebrews 8


I say because I believe God declares me a saint, not a worker of iniquity. Just because I sin, does not make me a sinner.

That is lunacy.

A person does not sin to become a sinner, they sin because they are a sinner. Romans 5:19

So if they sin, it is because they are a sinner; and therefore they are a sinner if they sin.

For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
Adam made us sinners, not our sins.
Jesus Christ made us righteous, not us doing righteous things.

If we are made righteous, we will do righteous things (1 John 3:7) and we will be slaves of righteousness; we will not be free to do the opposite of righteousness which is to sin (Romans 6:20).

My identification is given to me by God, and He calls me righteous.

Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. 1 John 3:7.

Jesus said those who said they were doing good were workers of iniquity. See below.

They were not workers of iniquity because they were doing good or said they did good, but because they were committing iniquity on the side and thinking that their work of the ministry would be their salvation in spite of their sin.

Believers should do good works, for they are profitable.
An unbeliever, it doesn't matter how many good works he does, he will still be considered a worker of iniquity.

Agreed. And if someone who thinks he is a believer does iniquity, he is considered by God to be a worker of iniquity. For there is no respect of persons with God. Colossians 3:25.

Let's look at Matthew 7:21 in context.
7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
See what these people were saying about themselves? they were not trusting Jesus for salvation, they were trusting there own good works. Then Jesus tells these workers of iniquity to depart.

Again, their iniquity was not in that they did good works (see Isaiah 5:20-21). It was that they thought that their good works would save them when they were working iniquity on the side of their ministries; i.e. they were not transformed within but thought that by doing what Christians do, that this would save them regardless of whether they were transformed within so that their iniquity might be abolished (1 John 3:8).

 

[1stcenturylady]

That is lunacy.


So if they sin, it is because they are a sinner; and therefore they are a sinner if they sin.


If we are made righteous, we will do righteous things (1 John 3:7) and we will be slaves of righteousness; we will not be free to do the opposite of righteousness which is to sin (Romans 6:20).


Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. 1 John 3:7.




They were not workers of iniquity because they were doing good or said they did good, but because they were committing iniquity on the side and thinking that their work of the ministry would be their salvation in spite of their sin.


Agreed. And if someone who thinks he is a believer does iniquity, he is considered by God to be a worker of iniquity. For there is no respect of persons with God. Colossians 3:25.


Again, their iniquity was not in that they did good works (see Isaiah 5:20-21). It was that they thought that their good works would save them when they were working iniquity on the side of their ministries; i.e. they were not transformed within but thought that by doing what Christians do, that this would save them regardless of whether they were transformed within so that their iniquity might be abolished (1 John 3:8).

This whole thread is beginning to break my heart. What I want to know is what denominations teach what Doug and Free teach. Clearly they have never experienced the freedom from sin that the baptism of the Holy Spirit provides. They seem to think of it as possitional than a real life changing supernatural strength that sets us apart unto God. You keep up the good work and don't be swayed by their false teachings, and I will do the same.

 

[justbyfaith]

This whole thread is beginning to break my heart. What I want to know is what denominations teach what Doug and Free teach. Clearly they have never experienced the freedom from sin that the baptism of the Holy Spirit provides. You keep up the good work and don't be swayed by their false teachings, and I will do the same.

Amen; and thank you for the encouragement to keep on keeping on.

 

[1stcenturylady]

Amen; and thank you for the encouragement to keep on keeping on.

Yes, and it is so easy once baptized in the Spirit. And just remember, any temptation that may come your way, God always gives you an avenue of escape.

 

[justbyfaith]

Yes, and it is so easy once baptized in the Spirit. And just remember, any temptation that may come your way, God always gives you an avenue of escape.

Amen I think I needed to hear that.

 

[Doug Melven]

They were not workers of iniquity because they were doing good or said they did good, but because they were committing iniquity on the side and thinking that their work of the ministry would be their salvation in spite of their sin.

They were workers of iniquity, it did not matter how many good works they did.

Again, their iniquity was not in that they did good works (see Isaiah 5:20-21). It was that they thought that their good works would save them when they were working iniquity on the side of their ministries; i.e. they were not transformed within but thought that by doing what Christians do, that this would save them regardless of whether they were transformed within so that their iniquity might be abolished (1 John 3:8).

Agreed. Good works will never save anyone. A heart change is what is needed. Ezekiel 36:26-27

This whole thread is beginning to break my heart. What I want to know is what denominations teach what Doug and Free teach. Clearly they have never experienced the freedom from sin that the baptism of the Holy Spirit provides. They seem to think of it as possitional than a real life changing supernatural strength that sets us apart unto God. You keep up the good work and don't be swayed by their false teachings, and I will do the same.

It is both positional and experiential.
Those who say they don't sin anymore are more than likely justifying there sin. For instance they will say that they had to lie. Like Abraham did when he said Sarah was his sister and omitted she was his wife.
Or they will say the sins they commit are just minor ones, not the big ones like murder and adultery and fornication. Just little white lies.
Or they tried to figure things out on there own instead of being totally dependent on God for everything.
If people got a vision of God's holiness like Isaiah did in Isaiah 6, they would see themselves as Isaiah did.
All of the little sins they think don't matter would be glaring spots on them.
And they would say, "Woe is me, I am undone for I am a man of unclean lips".

And then people who think they live godly lives feel they can call people fools. I hope they believe in OSAS.
Matthew 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

 

[1stcenturylady]

They were workers of iniquity, it did not matter how many good works they did.


Agreed. Good works will never save anyone. A heart change is what is needed. Ezekiel 36:26-27


It is both positional and experiential.
Those who say they don't sin anymore are more than likely justifying there sin. For instance they will say that they had to lie. Like Abraham did when he said Sarah was his sister and omitted she was his wife.
Or they will say the sins they commit are just minor ones, not the big ones like murder and adultery and fornication. Just little white lies.
Or they tried to figure things out on there own instead of being totally dependent on God for everything.
If people got a vision of God's holiness like Isaiah did in Isaiah 6, they would see themselves as Isaiah did.
All of the little sins they think don't matter would be glaring spots on them.
And they would say, "Woe is me, I am undone for I am a man of unclean lips".

And then people who think they live godly lives feel they can call people fools. I hope they believe in OSAS.
Matthew 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

So, I asked you - is the lake of fire in heaven? You know, the ones who only lose rewards and are in the lake of fire? Is that what the lake of fire means - their rewards are burned up?

 

[1stcenturylady]

They were workers of iniquity, it did not matter how many good works they did.


Agreed. Good works will never save anyone. A heart change is what is needed. Ezekiel 36:26-27


It is both positional and experiential.
Those who say they don't sin anymore are more than likely justifying there sin. For instance they will say that they had to lie. Like Abraham did when he said Sarah was his sister and omitted she was his wife.
Or they will say the sins they commit are just minor ones, not the big ones like murder and adultery and fornication. Just little white lies.
Or they tried to figure things out on there own instead of being totally dependent on God for everything.
If people got a vision of God's holiness like Isaiah did in Isaiah 6, they would see themselves as Isaiah did.
All of the little sins they think don't matter would be glaring spots on them.
And they would say, "Woe is me, I am undone for I am a man of unclean lips".

And then people who think they live godly lives feel they can call people fools. I hope they believe in OSAS.
Matthew 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

Lying is a choice. In the Holy Spirit it is easy to tell the truth. I wouldn't cast false accusations around like that.

 

[Doug Melven]

Lying is a choice. In the Holy Spirit it is easy to tell the truth. I wouldn't cast false accusations around like that.

This is you in post 2557 justifying sin.

They are imperfections we all do even while walking in the Spirit. See the end of 1 John 1:7. That would be lacks in having mature fruit, but not things like adultery, stealing, or murder.

 

[Doug Melven]

So, I asked you - is the lake of fire in heaven? You know, the ones who only lose rewards and are in the lake of fire? Is that what the lake of fire means - their rewards are burned up?

I am completely confused by this response.
The Scripture does not say rewards are burnt up.
It says the things they did that were wood, hay and stubble were burned. But they themselves are saved.
The Lake of Fire does not burn those who are saved. The Lake of Fire isn't even mentioned in 1 Corinthians 3.

 

[justbyfaith]

They were workers of iniquity, it did not matter how many good works they did.

Agreed.

 

[justbyfaith]

Lying is a choice. In the Holy Spirit it is easy to tell the truth. I wouldn't cast false accusations around like that.

Proverbs 13:5, A righteous man hateth lying: but a wicked man is loathsome, and cometh to shame.

 

[1stcenturylady]

I am completely confused by this response.
The Scripture does not say rewards are burnt up.
It says the things they did that were wood, hay and stubble were burned. But they themselves are saved.
The Lake of Fire does not burn those who are saved. The Lake of Fire isn't even mentioned in 1 Corinthians 3.

I never mentioned 1 Corintians 3. I quoted Galatians 5 and Revelation 21 #2705

The sins of the flesh in Galatians 5 both you and Free patted each other on the back with "WINNER" saying we can commit those sins and only lose rewards! Hogwash!!! Murder and sorcery and sexual sin were in them, and Revelation 21 shows those too, and they were cast into the lake of fire. So I asked both of you, if you don't inherit the kingdom of God, which means to you only a loss of rewards, what about the lake of fire? Same sins. How does the lake of fire equate with just a loss of rewards but you still go to heaven? Therefore you must think the lake of fire is in heaven. Again - Hogwash!!!

I've got news for you, Paul says to Christians, the wages of sin is death! THAT is the lake of fire, and it isn't anywhere near heaven!

 

[1stcenturylady]

This is you in post 2557 justifying sin.

Justifying sin? How do you twist what I said into that!

Especially when both you and Free say you can commit murder and sorcery without repentance and still go to heaven - you just lose rewards!

 

[1stcenturylady]

This is you in post 2557 justifying sin.

I never said they were even sins known to us that we are committing them. If you KNOW something to be sin, then if you are a Christian you just don't do them. But unknown sins we commit while walking in the Spirit are covered under the blood, just as 1 John 1:7 says.

 

[1stcenturylady]

Agreed.

Its good you found the needle in the haystack to agree to.

 

[Bible2+]

FreeGrace2 said in post #2702:

The ONLY CONDITION for never perishing is found in John 10:28.

No, there are other conditions (e.g. Luke 13:3).

FreeGrace2 said in post #2702:

How can you not grasp that if there were, Jesus would have clearly stated that in John 10:28.

No, for He expects us to know more than one verse (Matthew 4:4).

*******

FreeGrace2 said in post #2703:

But you claim we are saved by what we do.

Ultimately (Romans 2:6-8).

FreeGrace2 said in post #2703:

And Matt 7:21 isn't about what we do to be saved.

It is, with regard to ultimate salvation. For:

Matthew 7:21 ¶Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

FreeGrace2 said in post #2703:

John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”

The Father's will is also that we obey Jesus unto ultimate salvation (Hebrews 5:9).

FreeGrace2 said in post #2703:

We are declared righteous (it is imputed or credited to us) based on faith in Christ.

Ultimately, we will be justified by both faith and works (James 2:24).

FreeGrace2 said in post #2703:

[Rom. 3] 20 Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law . . .

Romans 3:20 refers to the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, which Christians are not under (Romans 7:6).

FreeGrace2 said in post #2703:

It appears you are either unwilling or unable to explain why God provides this so-called "initial salvation" when you believe it becomes irrelevant and only "ultimate salvation" is what saves.

What Christians are saved from, whether initially or ultimately, is eternal suffering in hell (Matthew 25:41,46). Initial salvation does save Christians from hell, initially. For an initially-saved Christian will end up in hell ultimately only if he wrongly employs his free will subsequent to his initial salvation in such a way that he ultimately loses his salvation (Hebrews 10:26-29, Hebrews 6:4-8, Matthew 25:26,30).

*******

FreeGrace2 said in post #2706:

The point is that one can be IN the kingdom while not having any inheritance in the kingdom.

Those Christians who will ultimately lose their salvation will neither inherit nor enter the Kingdom (Matthew 8:11-12).

FreeGrace2 said in post #2706:

Consider 1 Cor 3-
14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward.
15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.

1 Corinthians 3:15 refers only to the loss of reward for the work of spiritually building up a church congregation (1 Corinthians 3:8-17), if that work is done in a faulty manner, by focusing on the merely-temporal "wood, hay, stubble" (1 Corinthians 3:12) of human, worldly wisdom (1 Corinthians 3:18-20), and the glorying in human leaders of the Church (1 Corinthians 3:4,21), instead of focusing on Jesus Christ Himself, and the everlasting wisdom of His Word the Holy Bible (1 Corinthians 2:2 to 3:23; 1 Peter 1:23-25). 1 Corinthians 3:15 is not contradicting that if a Christian, whether a church builder or not, wrongly employs his free will to stop doing any good works, to become utterly lazy without repentance, then he will ultimately lose his salvation (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a,6). He will obtain ultimate salvation only if he patiently continues in good works and obedience to the end (Romans 2:6-8, Hebrews 5:9, James 2:24).

 

[Bible2+]

Doug Melven said in post #2708:

I would not take the easy way out and say if you don't at least try to live godly God will disown you. Telling them they need to be afraid of God.

Christians are commanded to fear God (1 Peter 2:17, Luke 12:5, Hebrews 12:28-29; 2 Corinthians 7:1, Ephesians 5:21, Acts 9:31). They must remain in fear of being cut off the same as non-Christians if they do not continue in God's goodness (Romans 11:20-22, Luke 12:45-46). They must work out their own ultimate salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12b; 1 Peter 1:17, Romans 2:6-8), knowing the terror of the future judgment of Christians by Jesus Christ (2 Corinthians 5:10-11), at His Second Coming, when some Christians will end up losing their salvation because of unrepentant sin (Luke 12:45-46, Hebrews 10:26-29), or unrepentant laziness (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a), or apostasy (Mark 8:35-38, Hebrews 6:4-8).

Satan would love to deceive Christians into not having this fear of God. For Satan knows that it is the lack of a fear of God which keeps people in unrepentant sin (Psalms 36:1, Psalms 10:13), and it is by the fear of God that people depart from sin (Proverbs 16:6b, Proverbs 14:27, Proverbs 3:7). And Satan can make his deceptions appear as if they are on the side of good (2 Corinthians 11:14), when in fact his deceptions reject the sound doctrine of God's Word the Bible (1 Timothy 4:1; 2 Timothy 4:3-4), when the whole Bible is taken into consideration, instead of just taking a verse by itself and trying to misapply it (e.g. Matthew 4:6-7).

Some Christians mistakenly think that they should not have any fear of God, because they misunderstand, for example, 1 John 4:18 and 2 Timothy 1:7.

But it is only if Christians perfectly love God that they will not misbehave (1 John 5:3, John 14:21-24), and so they will not have any fear of any impending punishment from God for any misbehavior (1 John 4:18). But if they become so wicked that they lose their fear of God (Psalms 36:1, Psalms 10:13), and so continue to misbehave without repentance, then they do need to fear impending punishment from God in the form of temporal chastening (Hebrews 12:6). And if they refuse to repent even after receiving temporal chastening (Revelation 3:19, Revelation 2:21), then they need to fear God's ability to cast them into hell (Luke 12:5) for their unrepentant misbehavior (Hebrews 10:26-29, Luke 12:45-46).

Also, when 2 Timothy 1:7 says that God has not given Christians the spirit of "fear", the original Greek word (G1167) means "timidity". And the context means that a Christian is not to be timid before people (cf. Proverbs 28:1) because he is ashamed of the Gospel of Jesus Christ (2 Timothy 1:8), or afraid of suffering affliction from people for preaching the Gospel (2 Timothy 1:8b, Luke 12:4, Hebrews 13:6). So 2 Timothy 1:7 means that God has not given Christians the spirit of the fear of people (Proverbs 29:25, Matthew 10:28). God has given Christians the Spirit of the fear of God (Matthew 10:28b, Isaiah 11:2, Romans 11:20-22, Romans 2:6-8, Philippians 2:12b; 1 Peter 1:17, 1 Peter 2:17, Hebrews 10:26-29, Hebrews 12:28-29, 2 Corinthians 7:1, Ephesians 5:21, Acts 9:31). But Christians can nonetheless wrongly employ their free will to quench God's Holy Spirit within them (1 Thessalonians 5:19), and so they can wrongly lose their fear of God (Romans 11:20-22).

*******

Doug Melven said in post #2716:

If your assurance of going to be with Jesus in the afterlife is based on your walk,
you are not on solid ground, but you are on shifting sands.

It's the exact opposite.

For in Matthew 7:24-27, your spiritual house is only built on the rock if you are obedient. For:

Matthew 7:24 . . . whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock . . .

And nothing requires that all Christians will be obedient. For Jesus will ultimately say to some of His servants, that is, to some Christians:

Matthew 25:26 . . . Thou wicked and slothful servant . . .

Matthew 25:30 . . . cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

*******

Doug Melven said in post #2718:

It is the promise of the New Covenant that He will not impute sin to.

Only so long as we repent (Hebrews 10:26-29).

 

[FreeGrace2]

@Doug Melven and @FreeGrace2

16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. 19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

You said these will just not receive rewards, but will still go to heaven.

vs.

But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

Is the lake of fire in heaven?

I certainly explained the principle of rewards clearly, so your question is silly. I quoted 2 Tim 2:12 and Rom 8:17 to show the parallels and which believers will reign with Christ (a reward for faithfulness, i.e.: enduring) and which will be denied that reward. I also showed from 3 parallel passages that the phrase "not inherit the kingdom" is equivalent to "have no inheritance IN the kingdom", which shows that believers will be IN the kingdom, but have NO inheritance there.

Now, I've just explained it all again, in summary.

So you have no excuse for not understanding the principle.

And, Rev 21:8 is clearly about the unbelieving, since that word is found at the beginning of the verse. John was describing what unbelievers do.

 

[FreeGrace2]

That is lunacy.

No, lunacy is reading the very clear words of Jesus about recipients of eternal life never perishing and still believing that recipients of eternal life MAY perish.