Losing faith in "faith alone"

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GodsGrace101

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In a word righteousness, God's grace saves, sanctifies and empowers for service. The just shall live by faith.
Of course the just shall live by faith. No faith...no salvation.
So on this thread we're all talking about saved persons.

"God empowers for service". What does that mean?
Also, you mention "sanctifies". What does sanctifies mean?

Again righteousness, that cannot come from us but only from him. Paul goes on for almost three chapters describing our sin, then in Romans 3, about verse 21 he injects a pivitol ' but now', and what he is talking about is the righteousness that is by grace through faith. What's he want? In the Upper Room Jesus makes clear he wants disciples to have love one for another, to love one another as he has loved us. That's the righteousness that is by faith, life and that more abundantly and it is always by grace through faith.
Righteousness IS by grace through faith. In Romans what was Paul comparing this to?

So we just love one another and sing Kumbaja?
What does love one another mean, exactly?
 
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GodsGrace101

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2 Timothy 3:16-17

16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.
Well, I'm happy to hear that you believe in good works!
Amen to that.
 
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Phil 1:21

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Well, I'm happy to hear that you believe in good works!
Amen to that.
Ephesians 2:8-9

8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
 
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GodsGrace101

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Actually, I did answer you:



You don't like my answers, and that's fine. We need to move on now.
How could I like your explanation?

You said:
Whether you are a disciple and to what extent is dependent upon your choice to learn from God, grow in His grace and follow after Him. This is your "reasonable service" and something all Christians should desire to do. (He who's been forgiven much, loves much).

post 1040 and others...

What do you mean "whether you are a disciple and to what extent depends upon our choice"...

If we believe in Christ we ARE a disciple.
To what extent...well, we all do the best we can, but we ARE a disciple.

Our choice of what? We can choose NOT TO BE A DISCIPLE??
So then how are we a follower of Christ?

And you've never explained what our reasonable service is.
Is being a disciple our reasonable service?
So what about those that don't want to be disciples? (according to your description of discipleship).
 
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GodsGrace101

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Ephesians 2:8-9

8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
You say we were created for good works.
This is a good statement.
 
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discipler7

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We could go over John 3:36 again however.

36“He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

You state that the new translations are wrong. So, are we now to assume that some translations are the word of God and some translations are NOT the word of God? So which translation should I run out to buy tomorrow to have the correct word of God?? You're on dangerous ground here.
When there are contentious and different translations of certain Bible verses, it would be unwise and on dangerous ground to base any doctrine on them, like you have done. ie by saying that believe means obey and salvation is by obeying Christ.
 
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GodsGrace101

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When there are contentious and different translations of certain Bible verses, it would be unwise and on dangerous ground to base any doctrine on them, like you have done. ie by saying that believe means obey and salvation is by obeying Christ.
They're not contentious or different.
You just don't seem to understand the what is being said.
And a doctrine IS NEVER based on ONE VERSE, or even two or three. It MUST agree with ALL of scripture.

As to believing meaning obeying and salvation being based on obeying... PLEASE don't believe me.

Find out on your own. There MUST be a way....
 
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amariselle

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John 6:64 is referring to all the disciples that were following Jesus, and not just the apostles... "who they were that believed not". (among the disciples NOT the apostles)

No doubt there were others that did not believe, but Scripture is clear, Judas was one of them.

John 6.64 is referring to Judas when Jesus says "and who should betray Him". By now Jesus knew who would betray Him.


Actually, Jesus always knew Who would betray Him. Here is the verse again:

But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. - John 6:64

John 6:70
John 17:12
This was AFTER Mathew 10, which I had posted.

See above. Jesus was God, not simply a man, He absolutely knew "from the beginning" who did not believe and who would betray Him.
 
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amariselle

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How could I like your explanation?

You said:
Whether you are a disciple and to what extent is dependent upon your choice to learn from God, grow in His grace and follow after Him. This is your "reasonable service" and something all Christians should desire to do. (He who's been forgiven much, loves much).

post 1040 and others...

What do you mean "whether you are a disciple and to what extent depends upon our choice"...

If we believe in Christ we ARE a disciple.
To what extent...well, we all do the best we can, but we ARE a disciple.

Our choice of what? We can choose NOT TO BE A DISCIPLE??
So then how are we a follower of Christ?

And you've never explained what our reasonable service is.
Is being a disciple our reasonable service?
So what about those that don't want to be disciples? (according to your description of discipleship).

I have actually answered those questions already (not sure if it was in this thread or the previous one).

But, rest assured, no one is getting to Heaven by "doing the best that they can." We are saved by the obedience of ONE. It really is that simple.
 
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discipler7

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But if WE don't give OUR LIFE to HIM we are not saved....
LUKE.9: =
Jesus Predicts His Death and Resurrection
21 And He strictly warned and commanded them to tell this to no one, 22 saying, “The Son of Man must suffer many things, and be rejected by the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised the third day.”

Take Up the Cross and Follow Him
23 Then He said to them all, “If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow Me. 24 For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will save it. 25 For what profit is it to a man if he gains the whole world, and is himself destroyed or lost? 26 For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words, of him the Son of Man will be ashamed when He comes in His own glory, and in His Father’s, and of the holy angels.

27 But I tell you truly, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the kingdom of God.”
 
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amariselle

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What Abraham did was not sinful at that time.
Surely you know this...

Really? Giving away his wife on two separate occasions to another man because he didn't have faith that the same God who had promised him a son through that very wife would preserve his life from danger?

Whatever is not of faith is sin. You don't get to redefine sin as you so choose, and neither do I.
 
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112358

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You don't need to reread anything.
You've perfectly understood what the N.T. is saying to all Christians. It's just that some don't want to understand it.
Churches preach this stuff. The internet, the worst place to learn about Christianity, is full of incorrect theology but some make their wrong doctrine sound so good.

The bible explains itself.
I do think you've understood it.
I can't just "like" button this. Thank you for the acknowledgement. Thank you for the encouragement. And to elaborate on why some don't want to understand it...

It is because the truth of the Gospel is, especially at first, uncomfortable to say the least. Real belief begins with the understanding that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and that our sin has separated us from Him, and that He paid the ultimate price to atone for our rebellion. It is the realization that we are in need of the salvation which only He can offer. This discomfort was expressed by those who first made the realization at Pentecost. They were "cut to the heart". As if the Gospel had stabbed them in the chest. Not an image of warm fuzziness. It is called guilt. Likened to how one feels or should feel, when they hurt (or more accurately: kill) someone for whom they genuinely care, multiplied exponentially. That's precisely what they (and we) have all done to the Messiah.

When one approaches the Savior from that appropriate perspective, it is only then that they can truly come to appreciate how much He loves us. It is then that they purpose to be reconciled back to Him on His terms, because He has already made the path to reconciliation available. It is then that they seek to find out what He said the path is is based on where He said it, not what someone else has told them their entire life, not what their preacher/pastor/adviser says. Not what reassures them that they have no part in all of it. What He says motivates the contrite heart to obedience.

But modern churchianity is only interested in warm and fuzzy. They only want to hear about the love of God and nothing of His justice or wrath. They want their own standard of authority instead of His. They want Godly joy without Godly sorrow. They want eternal security without taking up their cross. They want their sinful lusts and desires along with the license their "grace" gives them to pursue those things. They don't want to hear that they can fall from grace. That it is possible to abandon Him who they first loved. That a lion seeks to devour them, that they are his chief target, ambition, and goal, and that he in fact CAN devour them if they allow it. Just like Eve did when he convinced her "you shall not surely die". As if he has stopped his murderous crusade against the Father of Light and the crown of His creation...us...His children. As if they become immune to those things when they "believe". That's exactly what the father of lies wants us to think. We are immune.

So they systematically remove anything from scripture at all that has to do with their responsibility. They can fill up their "sanctuaries" and coffers with people and money that serve those interests. Hence, "that's not Christians", "that's not water", "that's not fallen from grace", "that's not severed from Christ", "that's not twice dead", "that's not dead faith", "Paul was concerned about disqualification, but we need not be" ad infinitum. It is literally the primrose path to destruction.

Man I hate false doctrine. Sorry. Rant complete. For now. :)
 
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Phil 1:21

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You say we were created for good works.
This is a good statement.
2 Timothy 3:16-17

16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.
 
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GodsGrace101

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No doubt there were others that did not believe, but Scripture is clear, Judas was one of them.

Actually, Jesus always knew Who would betray Him. Here is the verse again:

But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. - John 6:64

See above. Jesus was God, not simply a man, He absolutely knew "from the beginning" who did not believe and who would betray Him.

If scripture is so clear, why do some theologians believe Judas was saved and then lost his salvation?

Jesus KNEW FROM THE BEGINNING which of the disciples would not believe NOT the apostles. We can't know what Jesus knew or not about Judas. We have to go by what is written.
At the end of the ministry it's clear that Judas was no longer saved. But at the beginning the signs are that he was saved.
I'm not willing to debate this...it could be either way.

In any case, your verses do not support that Judas was not a believer but was a disciple. This is impossible.
OR you don't fully understand what a disciple is.
It's a FOLLOWER of Christ.
One who wishes to learn from Him.
and more...
 
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amariselle

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If scripture is so clear, why do some theologians believe Judas was saved and then lost his salvation?

Jesus KNEW FROM THE BEGINNING which of the disciples would not believe NOT the apostles. We can't know what Jesus knew or not about Judas. We have to go by what is written.
At the end of the ministry it's clear that Judas was no longer saved. But at the beginning the signs are that he was saved.
I'm not willing to debate this...it could be either way.

In any case, your verses do not support that Judas was not a believer but was a disciple. This is impossible.
OR you don't fully understand what a disciple is.
It's a FOLLOWER of Christ.
One who wishes to learn from Him.
and more...

I shared Scripture that plainly tells us Judas did not believe and that Jesus always knew that he wouldn't believe and that he would betray Him.

You can make it say something else than what it plainly says if you like. Your choice.
 
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redleghunter

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No. That doesn't make any sense.
It makes absolute sense as we are dealing with YHWH and not human reason.

We might as well all give up in trying to follow God if such were the case.
Give up because God is Sovereign of His own creation? It is not a matter of giving up on what God has provided, but giving up relying on ourselves and humbly serve Him. To rest in His gift of Grace and not rely on the world and our personal idols.

God does not pick and choose some to be saved and other not to be saved.
What I stated is God chooses. It's everywhere in the Bible. Noah, Abraham, Moses, David and the list goes on. Hebrews 11 gives a good run down. God even chose reluctant Jonah. God did not wait to see if Saul of Tarsus was going to turn another leaf. He chose Saul, confronted him and told him he was His chosen vessel to bring the Gospel to the Gentiles (Acts 9:15).

A general reading of the Bible refutes this kind of thinking.

Actually no. See above. God truly chooses and even the apostles were chosen. 11 for His Grace and one for destruction (Judas) (John 6:70-71).

God chooses and does what He pleases, showing grace to some and hardening the hearts of others (Romans 9:18).

This is a central Biblical doctrine:

Isaiah 55: NASB

8For My thoughts are not your thoughts,
Nor are your ways My ways,” declares the LORD.


9For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
So are My ways higher than your ways
And My thoughts than your thoughts.


10“For as the rain and the snow come down from heaven,
And do not return there without watering the earth
And making it bear and sprout,
And furnishing seed to the sower and bread to the eater;


11So will My word be which goes forth from My mouth;
It will not return to Me empty,
Without accomplishing what I desire,
And without succeeding
in the matter for which I sent it.


Isaiah 45: NASB
9“Woe to the one who quarrels with his Maker—
An earthenware vessel among the vessels of earth!
Will the clay say to the potter, ‘What are you doing?’
Or the thing you are making
say, ‘He has no hands’?

10“Woe to him who says to a father, ‘What are you begetting?’
Or to a woman, ‘To what are you giving birth?’”


11Thus says the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker:
“Ask Me about the things to come concerning My sons,
And you shall commit to Me the work of My hands.


12“It is I who made the earth, and created man upon it.
I stretched out the heavens with My hands
And I ordained all their host.


13“I have aroused him in righteousness
And I will make all his ways smooth;
He will build My city and will let My exiles go free,
Without any payment or reward,” says the LORD of hosts.


Romans 9: NASB
6But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel; 7nor are they all children because they are Abraham’s descendants, but: “THROUGH ISAAC YOUR DESCENDANTS WILL BE NAMED.” 8That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants. 9For this is the word of promise: “AT THIS TIME I WILL COME, AND SARAH SHALL HAVE A SON.” 10And not only this, but there was Rebekah also, when she had conceived twins by one man, our father Isaac; 11for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God’s purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls, 12it was said to her, “THE OLDER WILL SERVE THE YOUNGER.” 13Just as it is written, “JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED.”

14What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be! 15For He says to Moses, “I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION.” 16 So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH.” 18So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.

19You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?” 20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it? 21Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? 22What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? 23And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, 24even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.



To coin a modern term "It ain't about us, it's about Him." Which if we are to put in more formal and reverent manner:

Soli Deo Gloria!
 
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GodsGrace101

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I have actually answered those questions already (not sure if it was in this thread or the previous one).

But, rest assured, no one is getting to Heaven by "doing the best that they can." We are saved by the obedience of ONE. It really is that simple.
As Freddie Mercury would say:

"And there you have it".

So what you're saying is that we do not need to do our best to obey because Jesus has already done it all.
OR
We don't need to obey, because our obedience is dependent on Jesus.
SO
We don't have to do ANYTHING!
Jesus already did it all, by jove.

And you never did exegete my verses.

John 5:28-29
James 2:17
James 2:26
Mathew 5:16
Mathew 16:27
1 Peter 1:16-17
Romans 2:7

and so many more...
If someone could post so many verses showing how good works are NOT necessary, I'd sit up and take notice.

Which is what you should be doing right now.
 
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GodsGrace101

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LUKE.9: =
Jesus Predicts His Death and Resurrection
21 And He strictly warned and commanded them to tell this to no one, 22 saying, “The Son of Man must suffer many things, and be rejected by the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised the third day.”

Take Up the Cross and Follow Him
23 Then He said to them all, “If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow Me. 24 For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will save it. 25 For what profit is it to a man if he gains the whole world, and is himself destroyed or lost? 26 For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words, of him the Son of Man will be ashamed when He comes in His own glory, and in His Father’s, and of the holy angels.

27 But I tell you truly, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the kingdom of God.”
Thanks for once again proving my point.
I said that WE must give up our life for JESUS if we are to be saved.

And you correctly posted (but neglected to show the book, chapter and verse)...:

Take Up the Cross and Follow Him
23 Then He said to them all, “If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow Me. 24 For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will save it.

Amen.
 
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Bible Highlighter

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As disciples, not for salvation.



Not according to Scripture.



Yes, as disciples, not for salvation.

As I have said repeatedly. We do not agree. So, this will be the last time I respond to you on this topic. (There is not point in "beating a dead horse" to use the analogy you brought up earlier.)
What is a disciple? The dictionary defines a disciple as, "Someone who follows another person or another way of life and who submits himself to the discipline (teaching) of that leader or way. (Bakers Ency. of the Bible. Vol 1, pg629)

So to be a disciple or bear the name of a leader one must be to some degree following that leader or teaching. First you are converted, and then the process of becoming conformed to that leader or belief begins.

ILLUS:
The Moonies follow: Tan Sun Moon.
Mormons follow their prophet and General authorities.
Evolutionists follow: Darwin, Carl Segan and the teachers of evolution.
Masons follow: Teaching of Masonic order.
Jehovah's Witnesses follow the teachings of Russell Taylor and their leaders in Brooklyn, NY
Christians follow: Christ?

Would you call a person a Christian who did not follow Christ or pattern their life by the teachings of Jesus Christ?

I. WHO RIGHTLY IS A CHRISTIAN?

A. New Testament tells us that Christ began His ministry by calling "disciples." They latter were called "apostles" which means "ones sent forth." First they were disciples - the twelve were called apostles and they were then sent out to teach others.

Often we understand the disciples were only the twelve, however, it was the name given to all who believed in Christ.

(a) Acts 6:1-2, 7. All those who were saved were called "disciples".

(b) Acts 9:1,19,25-26,38. Paul is said to have persecuted the disciples of Christ.

(c) Acts 11:26. The disciples were then begun to be called "Christians" meaning "Christ like ones.”

Source:
CHRISTIANS ARE DISCIPLES - The Lost Doctrine - ACTS 11:26 -LUKE 9:57-62
 
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amariselle

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As Freddie Mercury would say:

"And there you have it".

So what you're saying is that we do not need to do our best to obey because Jesus has already done it all.

To be saved, no. As disciples, yes.

OR
We don't need to obey, because our obedience is dependent on Jesus.
SO
We don't have to do ANYTHING!
Jesus already did it all, by jove.

Jesus did in fact "do it all" for salvation. (I don't know why that seems to offend you, you should be overjoyed) What exactly is it that you think we should add to His finished and all sufficient work?

And you never did exegete my verses.

John 5:28-29
James 2:17
James 2:26
Mathew 5:16
Mathew 16:27
1 Peter 1:16-17
Romans 2:7

and so many more...
If someone could post so many verses showing how good works are NOT necessary, I'd sit up and take notice.

Which is what you should be doing right now.

I have in fact gone over those verses, and many more, with you (I think on the other thread), You are free to go back and read them.

And I have shared verse after verse with you, in context, which clearly tell us works are not necessary for salvation. Works are necessary for discipleship. (And all Christians should be disciples) A disciple is one who learns, and we do indeed learn and grow in His grace and in spiritual maturity after we are saved.
 
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