OSAS does not survive the "sola scriptura" test. Now what?

BobRyan said:

The problem with that purgatory ideas is -- it merely "makes stuff up" .

Doctrine is much more solid when not making stuff up. The Bible is the best standard for doctrine.

That way you can have Acts 17:11 "they studied the scriptures daily to see IF those things spoken to them by the Apostle Paul - were so"

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There is NOT ONE single Scripture which validates Purgatory...…...PEROID!

EmSw said:

Are you truly saved? Let's see from what we are saved.

Matthew 1:21
And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.

Why do you keep saying 'when you espouse that we are not saved after we sin'? Yes, there are sins of commission and omission. But, did you know God looks upon the heart? What is His reason for that? Have you ever thought about that?

It's the intention and motivation of the heart that God searches and judges a man.

Psalm 7:9
Oh let the wickedness of the wicked come to an end; but establish the just: for the righteous God trieth the hearts and reins.

Jeremiah 11:20
But, O Lord of hosts, that judgest righteously, that triest the reins and the heart, let me see thy vengeance on them: for unto thee have I revealed my cause.

Jeremiah 17:10
I the Lord search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.

Jeremiah 20:12
But, O Lord of hosts, that triest the righteous, and seest the reins and the heart, let me see thy vengeance on them: for unto thee have I opened my cause.

Revelation 2:23
And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

Jesus told us this -

Matthew 15
18 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.
19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:

All sin has its beginnings in the heart of man. These a man must overcome. That means repentance, that is, turning to God and turning from our sins is not a one-time event, as a lot of people say. Did you know what the sacrifices of God are?

Psalm 51:17
The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.

How does one get a broken and contrite heart?

Ezekiel 18:31
Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

James 4:8
Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.

It's by man casting away all his transgressions, thereby making a new heart and a new spirit. James says to purify our hearts.

It is when we purify our hearts and make them new, are we then saved from our sins.

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YES!

Do you believe in sinless perfection?

As you once said...…..a simple YES OR NO will do.

BobRyan said:

The problem with that purgatory ideas is -- it merely "makes stuff up" .

Doctrine is much more solid when not making stuff up. The Bible is the best standard for doctrine.

That way you can have Acts 17:11 "they studied the scriptures daily to see IF those things spoken to them by the Apostle Paul - were so"

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Don't you think that Purgatory is really not the problem???

It is a Catholic Tradition and when you study the RCC you see that a lot of their doctrines is "just made up stuff".

They in fact did not follow Acts 17:11.

bbbbbbb said:

Jealous of what? The fact that you are deceived into believing that sinless perfection is the normal state for the Christian? I hardly imagine that that is something of which to be jealous.

James did not say it; Jesus did. Matthew 5:48 Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

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Read the context of Jesus' words. It's amazing how little people know about what Jesus said.

Major1 said:

But you didn't answer the question did you.

Do you believe in "Sinless Perfection"?

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NO! What is it with 'perfection' with you people. Do you believe perfectly?

Major1 said:

How is a man saved????

Romans 10:9...…….
"That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation."

Now where in that passage does it say "WE VOW TO CAHANGE OUR WAYS".
Now where in that passage does it say "WE MUST MAKE RESTITUTION"?

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Where in that passage does it say 'the cross had anything to do with salvation?'

Where in that passage does it say 'the blood is the power unto salvation?'

Don't play silly games on here.

EmSw said:

Read the context of Jesus' words. It's amazing how little people know about what Jesus said.

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Okay, here is the immediate context. If you wish I can provide the entire sermon on the mount.

Matthew 5:43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47 If you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? 48 Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Gal.5:4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace."

1 Tim. 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

Heb. 3:6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.

Heb. 12:15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble [you], and thereby many be defiled;

1 Cor. 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring [it] into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

2 Pet. 2:20 If indeed they have escaped the corruption of the world through their knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, only to be entangled and overcome by it again, their final condition is worse than it was at first. 21 It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness than to have known it and turned away from the holy commandment passed on to them.…

Ezek. 33:13
If I tell the righteous man that he will surely live, but he then trusts in his righteousness and commits iniquity, then none of his righteous works will be remembered; he will die because of the iniquity he has committed.

Col.1:21 Once you were alienated from God and were hostile in your minds because of your evil deeds. 22 But now He has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy, unblemished, and blameless in His presence — 23 if indeed you continue in your faith,...

Lk.8:13 The seeds on rocky ground are those who hear the word and receive it with joy, but they have no root. They believe for a season, but in the time of testing, they fall away.

bbbbbbb said:

Okay, here is the immediate context. If you wish I can provide the entire sermon on the mount.

Matthew 5:43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47 If you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? 48 Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

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No, no. This is enough. We are to be perfect as our Heavenly Father is perfect. In context, how are we to imitate the Father? Notice in verse 45, 'for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous'. The Father does not only do good to the good and righteous, but also the evil and unrighteous. Nothing about keeping the law perfectly (which is made up by man).

Jesus then elaborates on this. He said to love our enemies and pray for those who persecute us. As the Father does good to the evil and unrighteous, so we are to do the same, that is, be perfect as our Heavenly Father.

Now we see what Jesus was saying about being perfect. Again, He said nothing about keeping His commandments perfectly. Now you know.

BobRyan said:

Acts 2 -
37 Now when they heard this, they were pierced to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brethren, what shall we do?” 38 Peter said to them, “Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins;"

Rom 10
9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes in Him will not be disappointed.”

Matt 7
21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.

John 14:15 "IF you LOVE Me - KEEP My commandments"
Ex 20:6 "Love Me and KEEP My Commandments"
1 John 5:2-3 "This IS the LOVE of God that we KEEP His Commandments"
Rev 14:12 "the saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus"
1 Cor 6 "DO not be DECEIVED -- neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 Such were some of you;
Rom 2:13 "13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified."

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I agree but it must be seen and realized that every single Scripture you posted is in reference to works being done by the believer AFTER HE WAS SAVED.

Good works is the product of salvation and not the cause of it.

EmSw said:

Read the context of Jesus' words. It's amazing how little people know about what Jesus said.

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AMEN and that is manifested right here on this forum every single day my friend.

EmSw said:

No, no. This is enough. We are to be perfect as our Heavenly Father is perfect. In context, how are we to imitate the Father? Notice in verse 45, 'for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous'. The Father does not only do good to the good and righteous, but also the evil and unrighteous. Nothing about keeping the law perfectly (which is made up by man).

Jesus then elaborates on this. He said to love our enemies and pray for those who persecute us. As the Father does good to the evil and unrighteous, so we are to do the same, that is, be perfect as our Heavenly Father.

Now we see what Jesus was saying about being perfect. Again, He said nothing about keeping His commandments perfectly. Now you know.

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But in comment #486 you said ……….
"NO! What is it with 'perfection' with you people. Do you believe perfectly?"

Now you just said...…………..
"As the Father does good to the evil and unrighteous, so we are to do the same, that is, be perfect as our Heavenly Father."

So then we actually do not known ANYTHING from your own words now do we ????

BobRyan said:

A. I agree that Good works is the product of being saved not the cause of it.
A. It is not true that all the actions listed above are called good works or that they are before being saved. Specifically these two examples.

In Rom 10 - what is it that "results" in salvation?

Rom 10
9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes in Him will not be disappointed.”

That which "results in salvation" most certainly did not come after salvation.

Acts 2 -
Repentance preceds salvation and also preceds forgiveness in 1 John 1:9

Mark 1:4
John came baptizing in the wilderness and preaching a baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.

Luke 24:47
and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

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I hear you but can not agree with you. The problem lies in "Denominationalism instead Bible understanding".

Denominationalism is vitally interested in proving that repentance precedes faith.

They say that one must repent before he believes, and the reason for their efforts is this: Members of several large denominations believe that one is saved either by faith only, or at the point of faith. They virtually all used to say that one is saved by faith only, and affirmed this in debate many times, but here of late, they have almost universally quit affirming the doctrine of faith only.

Now they affirm a modified form of the doctrine, still calling it the doctrine of faith only. They now say that one is saved at the point of faith, before and without water baptism. The reason for their saying that repentance comes before faith is because if they say that one is saved at the point of faith, and if repentance came after faith, then they would be saying that one was saved before he repented, which they refuse to admit.

The seed of the whole doctrine was an effort to get as far removed as possible from the doctrine of baptism's having anything at all to do with one's salvation.

Actually, if salvation is by faith only as some denominations still affirm, it matters not whether repentance comes before or after faith, for salvation by faith only means that one is saved without anything else. Regardless of the order of faith and repentance; the doctrine of faith only excludes repentance. 'Whether it comes before or after does not alter the case. Salvation by faith only still excludes repentance.
First of all, let us note that for repentance to precede faith would be a psychological impossibility. One cannot possibly repent before he believes. There are so many foolish, absurd, and impossible tenets connected with this doctrine, that it seems almost vain to have to refer to it. Let us notice some of these absurdities.

Suppose you were trying to convert an atheist, one who does not believe that God exists. What would you do first? Would you try to persuade him to believe or to repent? It would be impossible to get the man to repent in the Biblical sense of the term. The Bible teaches us that repentance is produced by godly sorrow, for one thing. How could this man have godly sorrow before he believed in God? Further, it is seen that repentance should be produced by the goodness of God, but this man does not believe that God lives, and therefore he would be wholly ignorant of the goodness of God.

The Order of Faith and Repentance

bbbbbbb said:

Questions, questions, questions. I will attempt to answer them in order.

1. What do you mean "James tells us that if we do not do what is right, then it is sin?" James 4:17 Therefore, to one who knows the right thing to do and does not do it, to him it is sin. I believe the verse is self-explanatory.

2. Was James referring to works? Absolutely.

3. So what do you think happens if you die with these thousands of unconfessed sins? If you are a Christian for whom Christ has paid the full penalty for your sin, then you go to heaven.

4. Would Jesus call you out on it? No

5. Am I reading you correctly? Mostly. Works do play a significant part in the judgement for Christians, but not in terms of their justification before God. Good works will be rewarded.

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Let's just skip the first two because it really won't lead us anywhere ha ha. #3 and 4 is not true according to Sola Scriptura. You'll have to end up paying for your sins. For example, let's say you cheated on your wife several times and got away with it. Sexual sin. You never repented. This would be unholy and keep one out. God killed everyone in Sodom and Gomorrah for their sexual sins.

As for 5, this is the weakness I see in Christians who follow Sola Scriptura. There are strengths and weaknesses of any religion or Christian. They end up assuming that solely believing in Christ absolves them from their sins. Just remember that Sola Scriptura is based on fallible humans.