Losing faith in "faith alone"

Afra · Jun 11, 2018

redleghunter said:
Actually I showed over 6 within context quotes where Chrysostom in no uncertain terms states we are justified by faith alone.

What you keep missing is that I said where Chrysostom and Luther examine the epistles of Paul they come to the same conclusion. It's a fact.

The only facts are that St. Paul is knowledgeable of the word “alone”, that in all of his letters the Holy Spirit did not inspire him to write “faith alone” even one single time, and the Holy Spirit inspired St. James to state that we are justified by works, and not by faith alone. I suppose you think that the Holy Spirit inspires people to write the exact opposite of what He intends?

And Chrysostom and Luther do not reach the same conclusions concerning St. Paul. That is precisely what we are debating.

JesusYeshuaisLord · Jun 11, 2018

redleghunter said:
I think you mistake what it means to be saved by faith apart from works. It does not mean a born again believer is comatose in their walk in the Spirit.

Actually being an ambassador for Christ Jesus is very hard work and much work is required. Those works just are not credited to us a justification nor can we point to them and actually say they belong to us.

Luke 17: NASB
7“Which of you, having a slave plowing or tending sheep, will say to him when he has come in from the field, ‘Come immediately and sit down to eat’? 8“But will he not say to him, ‘Prepare something for me to eat, and properly clothe yourself and serve me while I eat and drink; and afterward you may eat and drink’?9“He does not thank the slave because he did the things which were commanded, does he? 10“So you too, when you do all the things which are commanded you, say, ‘We are unworthy slaves; we have done only that which we ought to have done.’”

Revelation 4: NASB

8And the four living creatures, each one of them having six wings, are full of eyes around and within; and day and night they do not cease to say,

“HOLY, HOLY, HOLY is THE LORD GOD, THE ALMIGHTY, WHO WAS AND WHO IS AND WHO IS TO COME.”
9And when the living creatures give glory and honor and thanks to Him who sits on the throne, to Him who lives forever and ever, 10the twenty-four elders will fall down before Him who sits on the throne, and will worship Him who lives forever and ever, and will cast their crowns before the throne, saying, 11“Worthy are You, our Lord and our God, to receive glory and honor and power; for You created all things, and because of Your will they existed, and were created.”

It's not a matter of obedience is absent in a regenerated soul, it's a matter of who is credited for this obedience.

Romans 3: NASB
21But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,22even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;25whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed; 26for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

27Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith. 28For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. 29Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one.

31Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law.

1 Corinthians 1: NASB
26For consider your calling, brethren, that there were not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble;27but God has chosen the foolish things of the world to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to shame the things which are strong, 28and the base things of the world and the despised God has chosen, the things that are not, so that He may nullify the things that are, 29so that no man may boast before God. 30But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption, 31so that, just as it is written, “LET HIM WHO BOASTS, BOAST IN THE LORD.”

Abide joyfully and boldly my friend!

AMEN!!

Afra · Jun 11, 2018

redleghunter said:
Can you point out where we are justified by faith plus something else in the above quotes? And can you link the quotes within context as I did from the Catholic New Advent Encyclopedia? Thanks.

The very first paragraph teaches that baptism justifies. I am not “linking the quotes in context” for you.

redleghunter · Jun 11, 2018

112358 said:
And regarding John 3 and Nicodemus. What if Jesus meant exactly what Jesus said? What if the water associated with being born again is just that...water? Plain old water? Is that possible? Is there evidence to support the possibility? Is it conceivable that by water he did not mean amniotic fluid (which is not water, to be precise)?

Shall we explore that possibility, since we have already brought up the fact that Jesus said "He who believes and is baptized will be saved"? And there is quite the controversy over whether this verse refers to what is actually says as well?

I don't subscribe to the amniotic fluid theory. Precisely because I believe Jesus is discussing the washing of regeneration (cleaning) of what I quoted from Ezekiel 36.

That could be baptism but could also speak of the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit. It could be both as we confess Christ by action in baptism.

Scholars are split on this as I mention above. One reason is Nicodemus would not know Christian baptism at that point in the ministry of Christ. He would know the baptisms of the time which was John's baptism of repentance and the Jewish purity ritual of the mikvah.

redleghunter · Jun 11, 2018

NBB said:
I believe that even if we do not remain in the light, i think there is a lot of mercy of God, he is going to make sure you repent or something of the sorts. i don´t know how God is going to judge in that case but...

Aren't we all living proof of this Grace and Mercy God demonstrates in our lives where the Holy Spirit convicts us of sin in our lives? I was taken to the woodshed by the Holy Spirit almost 8 years ago. It was uncomfortable, humbling but a warm joy when given the heart of repentance.

As I pointed out earlier the story of an adulterer and murderer who God said was a man after His own heart.

When confronted with his own sins and knowing the temporal consequences of what he had sown, this is his prayer of repentance:

Psalm 51: NASB
1Be gracious to me, O God, according to Your lovingkindness;
According to the greatness of Your compassion blot out my transgressions.

2Wash me thoroughly from my iniquity
And cleanse me from my sin.

3For I know my transgressions,
And my sin is ever before me.

4Against You, You only, I have sinned
And done what is evil in Your sight,
So that You are justified when You speak
And blameless when You judge.

5Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity,
And in sin my mother conceived me.

6Behold, You desire truth in the innermost being,
And in the hidden part You will make me know wisdom.

7Purify me with hyssop, and I shall be clean;
Wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.

8Make me to hear joy and gladness,
Let the bones which You have broken rejoice.

9Hide Your face from my sins
And blot out all my iniquities.

10Create in me a clean heart, O God,
And renew a steadfast spirit within me.

11Do not cast me away from Your presence
And do not take Your Holy Spirit from me.

12Restore to me the joy of Your salvation
And sustain me with a willing spirit.

13Then I will teach transgressors Your ways,
And sinners will be converted to You.

14Deliver me from bloodguiltiness, O God, the God of my salvation;
Then my tongue will joyfully sing of Your righteousness.

15O Lord, open my lips,
That my mouth may declare Your praise.

16For You do not delight in sacrifice, otherwise I would give it;
You are not pleased with burnt offering.

17The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit;
A broken and a contrite heart, O God, You will not despise.

18By Your favor do good to Zion;
Build the walls of Jerusalem.

19Then You will delight in righteous sacrifices,
In burnt offering and whole burnt offering;
Then young bulls will be offered on Your altar.

Afra · Jun 11, 2018

redleghunter said:
You are responding as an RC apologetics site would quote the fathers. Find where they condemn an antinomian idea and go with it. Good on them I completely agree antinomian beliefs are heresy and damnable.

You need to respond to the fact Chrysostom and Basil contradict themselves after saying we are justified by faith alone. I don't think they do. I do see from your quotes he truly taught pastorally to encourage and exhort Christians to live pure lives and be workers of righteousness.

This is in keeping with apostolic New Testament teaching as well.

Luther thought so too:

Thus, it is just as impossible to separate faith and works as it is to separate heat and light from fire!

I guess some try to separate faith and works, but get burned in the process .

No, Chrysostom does not contradict himself.

These two statements are not contradictory:

A person is justified by faith, apart from works.
A person is justified by works, and not by faith only.

Scripture states both things, but you cannot take them both on face value because your theological framework does not allow it. You must interpret either statement to mean something other than what it plainly states because you view justification as a one time event rather than as an ongoing process. You cannot accept that a man is justified by faith apart from works at his initial conversion, as taught by St. Paul, and is justified by works after his initial conversion, as taught by St. James. Instead of just admitting that your framework is faulty, you must reinterpret St. James to mean the exact oppposite of what he plainly states.

At least you did not attempt to remove James from the Bible, which was Luther’s solution.

redleghunter · Jun 11, 2018

Afra said:
https://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/wittenberg/luther/letsinsbe.txt

13. If you are a preacher of mercy, do not preach an imaginary but
the true mercy. If the mercy is true, you must therefore bear the
true, not an imaginary sin. God does not save those who are only
imaginary sinners. Be a sinner, and let your sins be strong, but let
your trust in Christ be stronger, and rejoice in Christ who is the
victor over sin, death, and the world. We will commit sins while we
are here, for this life is not a place where justice resides. We,
however, says Peter (2. Peter 3:13) are looking forward to a new
heaven and a new earth where justice will reign. It suffices that
through God's glory we have recognized the Lamb who takes away the
sin of the world. No sin can separate us from Him, even if we were to
kill or commit adultery thousands of times each day. Do you think
such an exalted Lamb paid merely a small price with a meager
sacrifice for our sins? Pray hard for you are quite a sinner.

Thank you for quoting most of the letter fragment written to Melanchthon. Most scholars attribute this letter from Luther to Melanchthon where Luther was applying hyperbole.

Kind of like a Trump Tweet.

redleghunter · Jun 11, 2018

Afra said:
SAINT JOHN CHRYSOSTOM on Justification-Salvation

St John Chrysostom on we are saved by Grace and not works:

Homily 4 on Ephesians

Ver. 7. That in the ages to come, He might show the exceeding riches of His grace, in kindness towards us, in Christ Jesus.

Whereas he had been speaking of the things which concerned Christ, and these might be nothing to us, (for what, it might be said, is it to us, that He rose) therefore he shows that they do moreover extend to us, inasmuch as He is made one with us. Only that our concern in the matter he states separately. Us, says he, who were dead through our trespasses He raised up with Him, and made us sit with Him. Wherefore, as I was saying, be not unbelieving, take the demonstration he adduces both from former things, and from His Headship, and also from His desire to show forth His goodness. For how will He show it, unless this come to pass? And He will show it in the ages to come. What? That the blessings are both great, and more certain than any other. For now the things which are said may to the unbelievers seem to be foolishness; but then all shall know them. Would you understand too, how He has made us sit together with Him? Hear what Christ Himself says to the disciples, You also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Matthew 19:28 And again, But to sit on My right hand and on My left hand is not Mine to give, but it is for them for whom it has been prepared of My Father. Matthew 20:23 So that it has been prepared. And well says he, in kindness towards us in Christ Jesus, for to sit on His right hand is honor above all honor, it is that beyond which there is none other. This then he says, that even we shall sit there. Truly this is surpassing riches, truly surpassing is the greatness of His power, to make us sit down with Christ, Yea, had you ten thousand souls, would you not lose them for His sake? Yea, had you to enter the flames, ought you not readily to endure it? And He Himself too says again, Where I am, there shall also My servant be. John 12:26 Why surely had ye to be cut to pieces every day, ought ye not, for the sake of these promises cheerfully to embrace it? Think, where He sits? Above all principality and power. And with whom it is that you sit? With Him. And who you are? One dead, by nature a child of wrath. And what good have you done? None. Truly now it is high time to exclaim, Oh the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and the knowledge of God! Romans 11:33

Ver. 8. For by grace, says he have you been saved.

In order then that the greatness of the benefits bestowed may not raise you too high, observe how he brings you down: by grace you have been saved, says he,

Through faith;

Then, that, on the other hand, our free-will be not impaired, he adds also our part in the work, and yet again cancels it, and adds,

And that not of ourselves.

Neither is faith, he means, of ourselves. Because had He not come, had He not called us, how had we been able to believe? For how, says he, shall they believe, unless they hear?Romans 10:14 So that the work of faith itself is not our own.

It is the gift, said he, of God, it is not of works.

Was faith then, you will say, enough to save us? No; but God, says he, has required this, lest He should save us, barren and without work at all. His expression is, that faith saves, but it is because God so wills, that faith saves. Since, how, tell me, does faith save, without works? This itself is the gift of God.

Ver. 9. That no man should glory.

That he may excite in us proper feeling touching this gift of grace. What then? says a man, Hath He Himself hindered our being justified by works? By no means. But no one, he says, is justified by works, in order that the grace and loving-kindness of God may be shown. He did not reject us as having works, but as abandoned of works He has saved us by grace; so that no man henceforth may have whereof to boast. And then, lest when you hear that the whole work is accomplished not of works but by faith, you should become idle, observe how he continues,

Ver. 10. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which Godafore prepared that we should walk in them.

Observe the words he uses. He here alludes to the regeneration, which is in reality a second creation. We have been brought from non-existence into being. As to what we were before, that is, the old man, we are dead. What we are now become, before, we were not. Truly then is this work a creation, yea, and more noble than the first; for from that one, we have our being; but from this last, we have, over and above, our well being.

CHURCH FATHERS: Homily 4 on Ephesians (Chrysostom)

Afra · Jun 11, 2018

redleghunter said:
Thank you for quoting most of the letter fragment written to Melanchthon. Most scholars attribute this letter from Luther to Melanchthon where Luther was applying hyperbole.

Kind of like a Trump Tweet.

No, the conclusion follows logically from Sola Fide itself. If obedience contributes absolutely nothing to one’s justification, then it is entirely irrelevant whether a person commits one murder or ten thousand murders. As long as one puts his faith in “the finished work of Christ” he is saved.

This is why you must say that a person who has a “true saving faith” would never do such things, and say that a Christian “was never really saved in the first place” when you witness him doing extremely sinful things some period of time after his conversion.

redleghunter · Jun 11, 2018

Afra said:
The only facts are that St. Paul is knowledgeable of the word “alone”, that in all of his letters the Holy Spirit did not inspire him to write “faith alone” even one single time, and the Holy Spirit inspired St. James to state that we are justified by works, and not by faith alone. I suppose you think that the Holy Spirit inspires people to write the exact opposite of what He intends?

Are you truly putting forth another flawed semantics?

Why did Paul need to put "alone" in the Greek text when he he said "apart from" and when he said saved by Grace and not works it shows the absence of anything else.

In the Greek and even in the English translation Paul's formula is 1+0=1 in every referecnce to justification by faith and saved by Grace through faith.

Where nothing else exists in the text the lone standing word Grace or faith is alone. Meaning nothing else is modified in the statement.

Apart
Solely
Alone

Dorothy Mae · Jun 11, 2018

redleghunter said:
The question really is are those invited to the wedding feast wearing wedding garments?

Many seem to think God will provide them and they do not have to do anything. Worse are those who think to do anything at all to show your love for God is repugnant to God as it is WORK and "adding" onto what He is supposed to be doing all alone. You know, if one thinks a little bit, one can find the motivation in the human heart to avoid all work. That attitude towards work or works if there is more than one has a name.

redleghunter · Jun 11, 2018

Afra said:
And Chrysostom and Luther do not reach the same conclusions concerning St. Paul. That is precisely what we are debating.

Apparently they do read Paul the same way as I point out once again here:

Losing faith in "faith alone"

redleghunter · Jun 11, 2018

Dorothy Mae said:
Many seem to think God will provide them and they do not have to do anything.

I have never met a person advocating this. On message boards I hear about people like this but have yet to see anyone passionately defend such a position.

Dorothy Mae said:
Worse are those who think to do anything at all to show your love for God is repugnant to God as it is WORK and "adding" onto what He is supposed to be doing all alone.

Again have not met anyone who advocates this. There are those defending God's sovereignty sometimes say something close going quite a bit overboard.

Afra · Jun 11, 2018

redleghunter said:
Apparently they do read Paul the same way as I point out once again here:

Losing faith in "faith alone"

No, apparently they do not, as I previously pointed out in this thread.

redleghunter · Jun 11, 2018

Afra said:
The very first paragraph teaches that baptism justifies. I am not “linking the quotes in context” for you.

He probably did believe this. He was also Anti-Semitic showing he was just another fallible man commenting on Holy Scriptures and not writing inspired Scriptures.

So it's understandable that fallible men who are not writing infallible Sacred Scriptures can be wrong. Chrysostom and Luther were wrong hating Jews.

That's why we must always test all teachings with the Inspired Word of God when good pious men like Chrysostom contradicts himself over decades of writing .

Yet once again, the same epistles quoted their is no deviation between what Chrysostom concluded and Luther and the other Reformers concluded.

redleghunter · Jun 11, 2018

Afra said:
A person is justified by faith, apart from works.
A person is justified by works, and not by faith only.

That's because RCs love to pick one verse out of context to negate the teachings of Paul in 13 epistles.

Dorothy Mae · Jun 11, 2018

redleghunter said:
I have never met a person advocating this. On message boards I hear about people like this but have yet to see anyone passionately defend such a position.

Again have not met anyone who advocates this. There are those defending God's sovereignty sometimes say something close going quite a bit overboard.

Met some on a different site. They said to do anything was to insult God by adding.

redleghunter · Jun 11, 2018

Afra said:
Scripture states both things, but you cannot take them both on face value because your theological framework does not allow it.

Actually the flexibility is on the side of Protestant systematic theology and properly applying exegesis.

The problem comes when Roman Catholics apply the usual eisegesis to Holy Scriptures as she uses such as her servant.

Afra · Jun 11, 2018

redleghunter said:
He probably did believe this. He was also Anti-Semitic showing he was just another fallible man commenting on Holy Scriptures and not writing inspired Scriptures.

So it's understandable that fallible men who are not writing infallible Sacred Scriptures can be wrong. Chrysostom and Luther were wrong hating Jews.

That's why we must always test all teachings with the Inspired Word of God when good pious men like Chrysostom contradicts himself over decades of writing .

Yet once again, the same epistles quoted their is no deviation between what Chrysostom concluded and Luther and the other Reformers concluded.

Well, either he contradicts himself or your understanding of Chrysostom is incorrect. The smart money is on the latter.

The Church of the living God is the pillar and ground of the truth. Follow Her and you need not worry about falliable men, be it Luther, Chrysostom, or your own private interpretation of Scripture.

Afra · Jun 11, 2018

redleghunter said:
That's because RCs love to pick one verse out of context to negate the teachings of Paul in 13 epistles.

No, there are numerous verses throughout Sacred Scripture that refute Sola Fide, other than St. James. Some of them I have already posted in this thread. St. Paul’s own letters refute Sola Fide.

Losing faith in "faith alone"

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