The Sabbath-day Law Can Be Violated

Soyeong · May 3, 2018

Marco70 said:
Absolutely

So if you were trying to restore someone who was caught in sin, then how would you respond to someone who just told me what you did?

Marco70 · May 3, 2018

Soyeong said:
So if you were trying to restore someone who was caught in sin, then how would you respond to someone who just told me what you did?

Please explain further. I'm a bit slow at my age. What is your point?

Soyeong · May 3, 2018

Marco70 said:
Please explain further. I'm a bit slow at my age. What is your point?

So imagine you see someone who is caught in sin and try to gently restore them. However, when you do that, they respond by saying:

"Well happily, under the NC, the law God desires the believer to follow is written in their mind and placed on their heart. And, through the law we become conscious of sin. What is in your mind, you in your mind must know, and the law in your heart, must bring heartfelt conviction of sin when you wilfully transgress it. Which makes it kinda pointless for you to try and tell me which laws I should follow doesn't it"

How would you then respond to them?

Marco70 · May 3, 2018

Soyeong said:
So imagine you see someone who is caught in sin and try to gently restore them. However, when you do that, they respond by saying:

"Well happily, under the NC, the law God desires the believer to follow is written in their mind and placed on their heart. And, through the law we become conscious of sin. What is in your mind, you in your mind must know, and the law in your heart, must bring heartfelt conviction of sin when you wilfully transgress it. Which makes it kinda pointless for you to try and tell me which laws I should follow doesn't it"

How would you then respond to them?

Are you suggesting a born again Christian could be committing adultery for example and not know it was sin?(if I am understanding you correctly)

The7thColporteur · May 3, 2018

Soyeong said:
So if you were trying to restore someone who was caught in sin, then how would you respond to someone who just told me what you did?

I'd still like to know what Marco70's specific definition of sin is. I keep asking what specific Law [that is written upon the heart, as it was on Jesus' heart] in its specific words is to be kept, where they may be found in scripture [KJB] [which is the judge of all spirits, doctrine, etc], and if transgressed, is sin.

Marco70 · May 3, 2018

If one wants to know which law is written on their mind and placed on their heart, the simple response is: Anything that makes you conscious you sin by doing it. That is transgressing the law written on your mind and placed on your heart.
Lets look at what Paul said:

Carry each others burdens(love them) and so fulfil the law of Christ Gal 6:2

Do those, who do not practice what they preach obey Christ's law? Not a chance!
Do those who demand of you what they do not demand of themselves obey Christ's law? Not a chance!
They crush you with impossible demands/burdens that they do not even try to follow(Matt23:2-4) Just the opposite of obeying Christ's law isn't it. They are in wilfull rebellion against it

Soyeong · May 3, 2018

Marco70 said:
Are you suggesting a born again Christian could be committing adultery for example and not know it was sin?(if I am understanding you correctly)

The Mosaic Law was given to make us conscious of sin (Romans 3:20), without it we wouldn't even know what sin is (Romans 7:7), and sin is defined as the transgression of the Law (1 John 3:4). Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent from our sins for the Kingdom of God is at hand (Matthew 4:17, 23), and the Mosaic Law is how the people knew what sin was, so repenting from our disobedience to the Mosaic Law is an integral part of the Gospel message. Jesus was sinless, so he lived in perfect obedience to the Mosaic Law, which means that everything that he taught by word and by example was in accordance with the Mosaic Law, and as his followers we are told to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21-22), to walk in the same way he walked (1 John 2:3-6), and to be imitators of him (1 Corinthians 11:1). So we can't follow Jesus by refusing to repent and follow him, yet there are people who tell me that they born again who openly and unrepentantly do what God revealed in His Law to be sin.

The7thColporteur · May 3, 2018

Marco70 said:
... I am placing you on ignore. ...

I warn you in love Marco70, as you have placed others, including LoveGod'sWord, and myself "on ignore", since you state that you have read the Bible:

Matthew 7:12 KJB - Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.

Luke 6:31 KJB - And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise.

I sound warning to you, in love ["charity"; 1 Corinthians 13 KJB], that what measure you mete it will be measured to you:

Matthew 7:2 KJB - For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

Mark 4:24 KJB - And he said unto them, Take heed what ye hear: with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you: and unto you that hear shall more be given.

For we will reap more than we sow, some 30, some 60, and some 100 fold:

Hosea 8:7 KJB - For they have sown the wind, and they shall reap the whirlwind: it hath no stalk: the bud shall yield no meal: if so be it yield, the strangers shall swallow it up.

There may come a time Marco70, when you will be pleading for Jesus to help you, and He will have you "on ignore":

Luke 23:9 KJB - Then he questioned with him in many words; but he answered him nothing.

Marco70 · May 3, 2018

Soyeong said:
The Mosaic Law was given to make us conscious of sin (Romans 3:20), without it we wouldn't even know what sin is (Romans 7:7), and sin is defined as the transgression of the Law (1 John 3:4). Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent from our sins for the Kingdom of God is at hand (Matthew 4:17, 23), and the Mosaic Law is how the people knew what sin was, so repenting from our disobedience to the Mosaic Law is an integral part of the Gospel message. Jesus was sinless, so he lived in perfect obedience to the Mosaic Law, which means that everything that he taught by word and by example was in accordance with the Mosaic Law, and as his followers we are told to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21-22), to walk in the same way he walked (1 John 2:3-6), and to be imitators of him (1 Corinthians 11:1). So we can't follow Jesus by refusing to repent and follow him, yet there are people who tell me that they born again who openly and unrepentantly do what God revealed in His Law to be sin.

Well happily, under the NC, the law God desires the believer to follow is written in their mind and placed on their heart. And, through the law we become conscious of sin. What is in your mind, you in your mind must know, and the law in your heart, must bring heartfelt conviction of sin when you wilfully transgress it. Which makes it kinda pointless for you to try and tell me which laws I should follow doesn't it"

Marco70 · May 3, 2018

I love Matt7:2

The measure you use to judge others will be used to judge you

So when people quote, with their literalist understanding:

Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 1John 3:9

They would do well to remember Matt7:2

Of course, no one has love in their heart for fellow believers, if they do not practice what they preach. If they demand of others what they do not demand of themselves, if they make one rule for themselves and quote another for others

The7thColporteur · May 3, 2018

Marco70 said:
If one wants to know which law is written on their mind and placed on their heart, the simple response is: Anything that makes you conscious you sin by doing it. ...

So there is a 'subjective internal relative' law for each individual and not a universal standard written in the word of God specifically somewhere I can read its details, since the 'spirit' of Marco70 is telling him and us this.

Well, what of the many persons that think in their heart it is ok to eat people, and they have no consciousness of sin over it, and others 'marry' little children in Muslim countries, and they have no conscience of sin over over it, what of the sociopath, the psychopath, etc?

What about those who smoke cigarettes/cigars like some do, and they think its perfectly fine to do it, and even quote scripture verses, as do those who tattoo their bodies, abort their children, and even kill other Christians in the name of God, thinking that they are doing God service [worship]?

Marco70 · May 3, 2018

I find this bewildering.
The SDA members, on this website continually quote, correctly:

Sin is the transgression of the law

They also continually quote:

Through the law we become conscious of sin

They also continually quote:

The law is written in the mind and placed on the heart of every believer.

And yet, despite constantly affirming this is their belief, they somehow find it hard to accept, the TRULY born again believer must be conscious they sin when they wilfully transgress the law placed in their most inward parts.
Oh well

Wisdom is always proved right by its inconsistencies

The7thColporteur · May 3, 2018

Marco70 said:
...Wisdom is always proved right by its inconsistencies

What verse is that in scripture please?

klutedavid · May 3, 2018

Hello Soyeong.

How do you read the following paragraph?

Matthew 5:21-22
“You have heard that the ancients were told, ‘You shall not commit murder’ and ‘Whoever commits murder shall be liable to the court.’ But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court; and whoever says to his brother, ‘You good-for-nothing,’ shall be guilty before the supreme court; and whoever says, ‘You fool,’ shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell.

Is this the commandment to not kill or is this above and beyond the law itself?

Marco70 · May 3, 2018

In Acts ch15, the leaders of the church met to decide which Jewish laws Gentile converts be asked to follow. Avoiding the Levitical unclean foods was not amongst the ones given. So, either the Jerusalem church gave gentile converts a licence to sin under the NC, or, the SDA church has a 'subjective internal relative' law that was not shared by the Apostles, or we can say, they don't share a universal law with the early christian church.

Soyeong · May 3, 2018

klutedavid said:
Hello Soyeong.

How do you read the following paragraph?

Matthew 5:21-22
“You have heard that the ancients were told, ‘You shall not commit murder’ and ‘Whoever commits murder shall be liable to the court.’ But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court; and whoever says to his brother, ‘You good-for-nothing,’ shall be guilty before the supreme court; and whoever says, ‘You fool,’ shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell.

Is this the commandment to not kill or is this above and beyond the law itself?

It is based on Leviticus 19:17, where we are told not to hate our brother.

The7thColporteur · May 3, 2018

klutedavid said:
...How do you read the following paragraph?

Matthew 5:21-22
“You have heard that the ancients were told, ‘You shall not commit murder’ and ‘Whoever commits murder shall be liable to the court.’ But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court; and whoever says to his brother, ‘You good-for-nothing,’ shall be guilty before the supreme court; and whoever says, ‘You fool,’ shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell.

Is this the commandment to not kill or is this above and beyond the law itself?

It is the same Commandment of God [Exodus 20:13 KJB] to not "kill" [murder; Matthew 19:18 KJB] in the least/smallest way. Jesus explains the awesome depth [Psalms 119:96 KJB] of God's perfect character, which is "Life", and anyone who purposefully murders in the least way, has not God's character [which is eternal life], for a false tongue can "kill" [Job 20:16 KJB, just as [even moreso]] than a physical sword can:

Psalms 57:4 KJB - My soul is among lions: and I lie even among them that are set on fire, even the sons of men, whose teeth are spears and arrows, and their tongue a sharp sword.

Psalms 64:3 KJB - Who whet their tongue like a sword, and bend their bows to shoot their arrows, even bitter words:

Proverbs 18:21 KJB - Death and life are in the power of the tongue: and they that love it shall eat the fruit thereof.

Similar to:

Psalms 15:3 KJB - He that backbiteth not with his tongue, nor doeth evil to his neighbour, nor taketh up a reproach against his neighbour.

This is why speech upon the sacred hours of the 7th Day the Sabbath has such a conjunction on it, that is still to be obeyed:

Exodus 35:3 KJB - Ye shall kindle no fire throughout your habitations upon the sabbath day.

Again, see the connection:

Isaiah 58:13 KJB - If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words:

As it is written, the all laws still apply, just a matter of when and how, since a Christians "habitation" is New Jerusalem [Luke 16:9 KJB]:

Proverbs 26:21 KJB - As coals are to burning coals, and wood to fire; so is a contentious man to kindle strife.

Isaiah 9:18 KJB - For wickedness burneth as the fire: it shall devour the briers and thorns, and shall kindle in the thickets of the forest, and they shall mount up like the lifting up of smoke.

Isaiah 50:11 KJB - Behold, all ye that kindle a fire, that compass yourselves about with sparks: walk in the light of your fire, and in the sparks that ye have kindled. This shall ye have of mine hand; ye shall lie down in sorrow.

Right James? No kindling a "fire", not "speaking our own words" upon the sacred Hours of the Sabbath, right?

James 3:5 KJB - Even so the tongue is a little member, and boasteth great things. Behold, how great a matter a little fire kindleth!

James 3:6 KJB - And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell.

James 3:7 KJB - For every kind of beasts, and of birds, and of serpents, and of things in the sea, is tamed, and hath been tamed of mankind:

James 3:8 KJB - But the tongue can no man tame; it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison.

James 3:9 KJB - Therewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God.

James 3:10 KJB - Out of the same mouth proceedeth blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not so to be.

James 3:11 KJB - Doth a fountain send forth at the same place sweet water and bitter?

James 3:12 KJB - Can the fig tree, my brethren, bear olive berries? either a vine, figs? so can no fountain both yield salt water and fresh.

Therefore, words can bring life [edifcation, compassionate words, loving rebuke, etc] or death [murder/kill], such as backbiting, devouring one another, gossip, slander, libel, etc, etc.

Matthew 12:37 KJB - For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

Jesus Himself:

1 Peter 2:19 KJB - For this is thankworthy, if a man for conscience toward God endure grief, suffering wrongfully.

1 Peter 2:20 KJB - For what glory is it, if, when ye be buffeted for your faults, ye shall take it patiently? but if, when ye do well, and suffer for it, ye take it patiently, this is acceptable with God.

1 Peter 2:21 KJB - For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:

1 Peter 2:22 KJB - Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:

1 Peter 2:23 KJB - Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously:

Jesus then, would never render “evil for evil” or “railing for railing” and therefore would “refrain his tongue from evil, and his lips that they speak no guile”:

1 Peter 3:9 KJB - Not rendering evil for evil, or railing for railing: but contrariwise blessing; knowing that ye are thereunto called, that ye should inherit a blessing.

1 Peter 3:10 KJB - For he that will love life, and see good days, let him refrain his tongue from evil, and his lips that they speak no guile:

Satan is the accuser of the brethren:

Revelation 12:10 KJB - And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

Jesus is the Advocate, the defense, the shield, of His people:

1 John 2:1 KJB - My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

The7thColporteur · May 3, 2018

Marco70 said:
In Acts ch15, the leaders of the church met to decide which Jewish laws Gentile converts be asked to follow. Avoiding the Levitical unclean foods was not amongst the ones given. So, either the Jerusalem church gave gentile converts a licence to sin under the NC...

Acts 15, reveals that the Jerusalem council, gave out the basic regulations for the present situation, for those Gentiles just rapidly coming into the faith and for those Gentiles that were already turned [repented] unto God and were desirous of obeying God's Ten Commandments. It was not the end-all be-all of the regulations, otherwise where is the love thy neighbour, etc, etc?

Acts 15 speaks of building up the "tabernacle of David" [Jesus, not tearing it down]:

Acts 15:16 KJB - After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:

Acts 15:17 KJB - That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.

The Gentile repentant would know of the Creator and of His Sabbath:

Acts 15:18 KJB - Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.

Acts 15:19 KJB - Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:

The council gave them regulations for when they were coming into the faith:

Acts 15:20 KJB - But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.

All of which are found in the heart of Deuteronomy, Leviticus, and where would the Gentile believers learn more and when? From the Scriptures when they are read on Sabbath meeting:

Acts 15:21 KJB - For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

All of this confirmed by the Holy Ghost:

Acts 15:28 KJB - For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;

The Gentiles believers were already keeping Sabbath, but many new believers were about to come in, and they needed some hard/fast regulations [kinda like when polygamists, witchdoctors, polytheists, headhunters, come to the faith in Africa [Zimbabwe, or other such like countries, etc], etc]:

Acts 13:42 KJB - And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.

Acts 13:43 KJB - Now when the congregation was broken up, many of the Jews and religious proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas: who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God.

Acts 13:44 KJB - And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.

Which is a fulfillment of Isaiah 56:1-8; John 10:16, 21:15-17 [lambs - children/young in faith; sheep - Jews; sheep - Gentiles; two folds becoming one united fold, all repentant unto God, see Acts 4:24 [Jews], 14:15 [Gentiles]; compare to Exodus 20:11 KJB] etc.

klutedavid · May 3, 2018

Soyeong said:
It is based on Leviticus 19:17, where we are told not to hate our brother.

If what you said is true, then what law is the following based on?

Matthew 5:31-32
“It was said, ‘Whoever sends his wife away, let him give her a certificate of divorce’; but I say to you that everyone who divorces his wife, except for the reason of unchastity, makes her commit adultery; and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery.

Soyeong · May 3, 2018

klutedavid said:
If what you said is true, then what law is the following based on?

Matthew 5:31-32
“It was said, ‘Whoever sends his wife away, let him give her a certificate of divorce’; but I say to you that everyone who divorces his wife, except for the reason of unchastity, makes her commit adultery; and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery.

Whenever Jesus quoted Scripture, he proceeded it by saying "it is written", but when he was quoting from what the people had heard being taught about Scripture, he proceeded by saying "you have heard that it was said", so the emphasis on the different form of communication is important. Jesus was not correcting or making changes to what was written, but rather he was fulfilling the Law by correcting and teaching how to correctly understand and obey it as it was originally intended.

In Matthew 19:3, the Pharisees asked Jesus if was lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any reason. The context of this question is that Talmud teaches that a man could divorce his wife if she burned his meal or if he found someone who was prettier (Gitten 90a-b). However, in Matthew 19:8, Jesus corrected them by saying that this was not so from the beginning. According to the Deuteronomy 24:4, a woman will be defiled if she divorces and marries another.

The Sabbath-day Law Can Be Violated

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