COL 2:14-17 The REAL truth from God's Word

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Marco70

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Ok Marco no point in continuing this unless you have scripture to share maybe we can chat more latter or you can pray about it at home bye for now :wave:
Unbelieveable. When you produce the scripture, lgw says you have not. When you quote the bible word for word, he accuses you of putting your own interpretation over and above God's word. When you ask him questions, he refuses to answer them. Then he claims he has proved you wrong according to scripture.

Oh well, this is the internet after all
 
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Marco70

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Your questions and scriptures have been answered with scripture showing you in error in the linked post above and I will provide a link to it again in this post here. You not telling the truth now are you? :)

YOUR SCRIPTURES AND MINE Linked CLICK ME.
And its utter nonsense to claim the post you are referring to refutes my scriptures. All you showed in that link was your inability to understand the message. As you know, I responded to many of the scriptures you quoted
 
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LoveGodsWord

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And its utter nonsense to claim the post you are referring to refutes my scriptures. All you showed in that link was your inability to understand the message. As you know, I responded to many of the scriptures you quoted

Prove it. Here you go...

YOUR SCRIPTURES AND MINE Linked CLICK ME.

Simply saying you do not agree is only your words over God's WORD. Only God's WORD is true and we should BELIEVE and FOLLOW it over the teachings and traditions of men that break the commandments of God.

................

SIN is the breaking of God's Commandments (James 2:9-11; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4)

Those who CONTINUE in UNREPENTANT SIN will NOT enter into the KINGDOM of HEAVEN.

................

God's 4th commandment is one of the ten (Exodus 20:8-11) If we knowingly break it when God asks us not to we stand guilty before God of committing sin (James 2:8-12). If we do not seek him in repentance and forgiveness we are in danger of the Judgement (Hebrews 10:26-27)

Sunday worship is a tradition and teaching of man that has led many to break the commandments of God. Jesus says that if we follow the traditions of man that break the commandments of God we are not following God (Matthew 15:3-9)

There is not one scripture in all of God's Word that says that God's 4th Commandment is now ABOLISHED and we are now commanded to KEEP Sunday as a Holy day.

Who should we follow the teachings and traditions of men or the Word of God? Who should we believe the Words of men or the Word of God?

In times of ignorance God winks at but now ,<when a KNOWLEDGE of the truth has come> calls all men everywhere to REPENT (FOLLOW) (Acts 17:30-31).
 
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What? I cited [Link] 1 Timothy 2:5 KJB in reference to Jesus being the New Man, "the man", which is a link to 1 Corinthians 15:44-46 KJB, which I also cited, which links back to Mark 2:27 KJB in a greater fulfillment, then the post continued:

"... Here is the evidence from scripture [KJB] in irrefutable facts - [Link] & [Link] & [Link] & [Link] & [Link] ..."​

That Jesus is Israel, I clearly cited [Link] Matthew 2:13-15; Hosea 11:1; Romans 9:6-8, etc.
You did not such thing. What you did is pile a bunch of Scripture together making a claim none of them will support.

For instance Israel isn't mentioned in 1 Timothy 2:5. Jesus is called "one mediator." You simply can't get Israel from that. Israel never mediated anything. Israel never was between man and God.
 
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First of all, citing the corrupted Jerome's vulgate [he himself addmitted to altering the text, the original vulgate, Vetus latina - the 'Italic', under orders, look it up - [Link]] of the Roman Catholic church is not gonna get you very far, but more importantly, the word in the Koine Greek, is not "the decree", singular. It is clearly plural:

δογμασινG1378 N-DPN​

Therefore, the Latin vulgate of Jerome is in error even at this point.

However, we simply go to the word, and see where elsewhere in scripture it is used. It is not used of the Ten Commandments.

The words "cheirografon toiV dogmasin" never mean "certificate of debt" in scripture [and that is not a literal equivalency, and even more than a 'dynamic', but truly someone's own private [incorrect] paraphrase]

cheirografon – G5498 N-ASN

toiV – G3588 T-DPN

dogmasin – G1378 N-DPN​

The word "cheirografon" literally means "cheiro" [hand] & "grafon" [writing]:

See "cheiro" [translated as “hand” 89 times or “hands” 90 times, per KJC] - https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/Lexicon/lexicon.cfm?strongs=G5495&t=KJB

See "grafon" [translated as “written” 121 times, or “write” 50 times, or “wrote” 21 times, or “describeth” 1 time or “writing” 1 time, per KJC] - https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/Lexicon/lexicon.cfm?strongs=G1125&t=KJB

And do not merely take any concordance definition, but simply utilize the concordance to look at all the Bible passages to see how the word is defined and used in scripture itself [as per Isaiah 28:10; 1 Corinthians 2:13 KJB, etc].

The word "toiV" can have several uses in scripture [KJB], and in this instance means "of" - https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G3588&t=KJB

The word "dogmasin" literally means "dogma" [see Websters 1828 for helpful def., but always remember to define scripture by scripture] which comes to be:

[1] "decrees" [Luke 2:1; Acts 16:4, 17:7] and,

[2] "ordinances" [Ephesians 2:15; Colossians 2:14] - https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/Lexicon/Lexicon.cfm?strongs=G1378&t=KJB

The related word in the very same passage of Colossians 2, is "dogmatizesthe":

Colossians 2:20 KJB Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,​

Yet we know that the Ten Commandments are not of this earth/world, not carnal, but of Heaven, spiritual:

Exodus 20:22 KJB And the LORD said unto Moses, Thus thou shalt say unto the children of Israel, Ye have seen that I have talked with you from heaven.

Romans 7:14 KJB For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.​

These are the carnal ordinances, even the law of commandments in ordinances, even the handwritten ordinances [by Moses] imposed upon Israel back in the books of Moses. It is not anyone ones sins here, for these "ordinances" were for the "worldly sanctuary" to do its service, and for sacrifices, etc, see also Ezekiel 43:18

And he said unto me, Son of man, thus saith the Lord GOD; These [are] the ordinances of the altar in the day when they shall make it, to offer burnt offerings thereon, and to sprinkle blood thereon. Ezekiel 43:18​

Luke 1:6 makes mention again of these, as other passages:

Luke 1:6 "And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless."

Numbers 9:12 "They shall leave none of it unto the morning, nor break any bone of it: according to all the ordinances of the passover they shall keep it."

2 Chronicles 33:8 "... take heed to do all that I have commanded them, according to the whole law and the statutes and the ordinances by the hand of Moses."​

These refer to things, even as found in Numbers 9:3 KJB

Numbers 9:3 KJB In the fourteenth day of this month, at even, ye shall keep it in his appointed season: according to all the rites of it, and according to all the ceremonies thereof, shall ye keep it.​

In fact, when looking at the context of Colossians 2, in the handwritten [by Moses] “ordinances” thereof, we read nothing of the Ten Commandments, but only of things pertaining to the earthly sanctuary and its services, in carnal things, that came afterwards under the Levitical priesthood.

See also for further detail:

Even if we go to the so-called LXX [the work of Origen in his Hexapla, which Jerome admitted as being older than his own work], we see in Esther 3:9, that it deals with a handwritten ordinance for the destruction of the Jews, written by a man, and nothing to do with moral Commandments of God, which were directly spoken by God Himself from Heaven.
Since you speak of the Vulgate as corrupt, why should we believe your corrupt ideas from the KJV and or the Greek text? There's no word that can come close to mean Israel in your foudation verse of 1 Timothy 2:5. The word "mesités" means "(a) a mediator, intermediary, (b) a go-between, arbiter, agent of something good."

Here are some word studies on the word "mesités:"

3316 mesítēs (from 3319 /mésos, "in the middle") – properly, an arbitrator ("mediator"), guaranteeing the performance of all the terms stipulated in a covenant (agreement).

3316 /mesítēs (a "mediator") intervenes to restore peace between two parties, especially as it fulfills a compact or ratifies a covenant.
 
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Marco70

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Prove it. Here you go...

YOUR SCRIPTURES AND MINE Linked CLICK ME.

Simply saying you do not agree is only your words over God's WORD. Only God's WORD is true and we should BELIEVE and FOLLOW it over the teachings and traditions of men that break the commandments of God.

................

SIN is the breaking of God's Commandments (James 2:9-11; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4)

Those who CONTINUE in UNREPENTANT SIN will NOT enter into the KINGDOM of HEAVEN.

................

God's 4th commandment is one of the ten (Exodus 20:8-11) If we knowingly break it when God asks us not to we stand guilty before God of committing sin (James 2:8-12). If we do not seek him in repentance and forgiveness we are in danger of the Judgement (Hebrews 10:26-27)

Sunday worship is a tradition and teaching of man that has led many to break the commandments of God. Jesus says that if we follow the traditions of man that break the commandments of God we are not following God (Matthew 15:3-9)

There is not one scripture in all of God's Word that says that God's 4th Commandment is now ABOLISHED and we are now commanded to KEEP Sunday as a Holy day.

Who should we follow the teachings and traditions of men or the Word of God? Who should we believe the Words of men or the Word of God?

In times of ignorance God winks at but now ,<when a KNOWLEDGE of the truth has come> calls all men everywhere to REPENT (FOLLOW) (Acts 17:30-31).


I already have proved it. Do you want me to copy anew the responses you have previously been given to much of the scripture you quoted? I'm afraid you quoting scripture to try and overturn what God's word plainly states, simply shows your lack of understanding the spiritual message of scripture. Thjat is all it proves, nothing more.
However, when I asked you to interpret Gal2:16&17 you couldn't do it could you. No surprise there.
Let me throw your words back at you. To believe a person is not made alive with Christ/saved, even when they are dead in transgression/sin is only your words over God's word. And we should follow God's word over the teachings and traditions of men. Therefore a person is saved even when they are dead in their sins.
As you are unable to tell me if a Christian MUST be conscious they sin when they wilfully transgress the law in their heart, I have no choice but to believe you haven't got a clue as to what the answer is. So I wouldn't be able to take your thoughts seriously as to what is and what is not sin under the NC.
BTW
Your reliance on going to church on a Saturday, tithing, not committing the physical act of adultery, not stealing, not committing murder, avoiding alcohol, smoking, using foul language or affairs, as the basis of entering heaven leaves you on such shaky ground, it really does. The Pharisees of Jesus day would have passed those tests with flying colours, yet they did not even know God.
 
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Jesus is the true Israel. The peoples Israel were the shadow.
You have nothing from the Scripture to back this up. Further more I'm not just making an argumentative statement. You simply can't provide such because there's not a single passage or cumulative group of passages.
 
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Colossians 2:

The questions:

[1] Where is Paul quoting from in the Old Testament specifically, in regards to Colossians 2:14-17?

There are several texts Paul is utilizing [for ex. Psalms 98:1-3 for just a single reference, are there then any others?], and it is easy to see, especially with the KJB.​
Psalms 98:1-3 has nothing to do with Colossians 2:14-17.​
 
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[2] What, specifically, is the “handwriting of ordinances”, that Paul is speaking of, for he is again referring to the Old Testament usage from which he is quoting, and does he utilize the same language anywhere else in the NT, if so where?
Don't you claim the ten commandments were written with the finger of God? How then can they not by what Paul is talking about?
 
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Marco70

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I cite the Greek [or Hebrew, etc] because that's what people here do. I dislike doing it.

I agree with your last statement wholeheartedly.
Though you and I would very seldom agree, I appreciate what you wrote in the above. And I apologise for what I wrote in this instance. Though I firmly believe it to be the truth, I accept what you wrote as the truth, therefore I should not at this time have written it
 
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[3] What is the definition of sin [1 John 3:4; Romans 6:23, etc] that Paul utilizes in the very context?

Colossians 2:11 KJB In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

Colossians 2:12 KJB Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with [him] through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

Colossians 2:13 KJB And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses:

See the like parallel, in Ephesians 2:

Ephesians 2:1 KJB And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

Ephesians 2:2 KJB Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

Ephesians 2:3 KJB Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.​

Colossians 2 KJB, parallels Ephesians 2 KJB, and Hebrews 9-10 KJB. The language is the same. The "ordinances" in Colossians 2 deals with "shadows", such as the daily "meat and drink" offerings of a worldly sanctuary and carnal ordinances, the seasonal "feast days", the monthly "new moons", and the year based "sabbaths", in the singular, every 7 and 50th years, as Paul is citing Psalms 98:1-3; and Ezekiel 45:17 KJB with other texts.

The Sabbath of the LORD thy God is always called "my [as in God's] sabbaths", and the others in Leviticus 23:4 onward are called "your [the peoples] sabbaths" [Leviticus 26:35 KJB] which are "beside [given in addition to] the sabbaths of the LORD" [Leviticus 23:38 KJB]. The Ten Commandments, including the Sabbath of the 4th Commandment, are "light" [Proverbs 6:23, Isaiah 8:20, 51:4 KJB], never a "shadow", are "spiritual" [Romans 7:14 KJB], never "carnal" [Hebrews 9:10 KJB].

Colossians 2:14 - "ordinances"
Ephesians 2:15 - "law of commandments contained in ordinances"
Hebrews 9:1 - "ordinances of divine service"
Hebrews 9:10 - "carnal ordinances"

Colossians 2:16 - "in meat, or in drink" [offerings]
Hebrews 9:10 - "meats and drinks" [offerings]

Colossians 2:12 - "also ye are risen with him"
Ephesians 2:6 - "raised us up together"

Colossians 2:16 - "a shadow of things to come"
Ephesians 2:7 - "in the ages to come"
Hebrews 9:11 - "of good things to come"
Hebrews 10:1 - "the law having a shadow of good things to come", "those sacrifices", "offered year by year"​

[ps. none of the Ten Commandments deal with carnal sacrifices]
You're simply living up to your moniker by peddling this stuff as this definition says someone employed by a religious society to distribute Bibles and other religious tracts. You simply aren't peddling the Bible.
 
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First of all this is non-sequitur to Colossians 2 and you know it. Stop distracting people.

Also, Origen was making up the LXX in his Hexapla, as cited to you. This is the reason that the so-called LXX [of Origen] reads like the NT. Additonally, there is no rule in scripture, that when a citation is utilized by a NT writer from an OT text that it had to be word for word, but could be used as the Holy Ghost led. We do it all the time. Paul did it constantly. Look at Hebrews 10:5 and compared to Psalms 40:6. What happens is, that Paul will cite a partial verse and mix them with another partial verse from another place. This was known to be done even in the OT, see Isaiah 28:10-13 KJB.

God also uses multiple words that mean the same thing, see Thou shalt not kill [OT], and thou shalt not murder [NT], as Jesus cited it. See also the OT, in which God uses three words to describe creation that all mean the same thing, see Created, Made and Formed Isaiah 43:7 KJB. Same with Agape, Phileo, etc.
This reads like self justification while condemning another for the same thing.
 
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The truly born again Christian is only too aware of his shortcomings/faults/sin. He hates them, feels bad about them and wants more than anything to see victory over them.
How would such a sincere person feel, when someone comes along and tells them they cannot be in a saved state if they fail to observe the law/commit sin. Not very nice, or loving is it. No compassion either. Does the person doing this preaching fully observe the law themselves? No! For: The letter kills
So what they're really promoting is God is a failure. Isn't this bringing God down to be like us?
 
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LoveGodsWord

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I already have proved it. Do you want me to copy anew the responses you have previously been given to much of the scripture you quoted?

No you have not proven anything. How can you claim that when you have not responded to the scriptures in God's WORD that disagree with you? You have only provided your own words over God's WORD.

Please go ahead and copy and paste your responses it makes no difference as the scriptures already provided that you have not responded to only show your in error.

Please provide where you say you have proven something. I am happy to re-post the scriptures that disagree with you and you have not responded to.

................

Which ever way you want to spin it. SIN is the transgression of God's LAW (James 2:9-11; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4).

Those who CONTINUE in UNREPENTANT SIN will NOT enter into the KINGDOM of HEAVEN.

................

God's 4th commandment is one of the ten (Exodus 20:8-11) If we knowingly break it when God asks us not to we stand guilty before God of committing sin (James 2:8-12). If we do not seek him in repentance and forgiveness we are in danger of the Judgement (Hebrews 10:26-27)

Sunday worship is a tradition and teaching of man that has led many to break the commandments of God. Jesus says that if we follow the traditions of man that break the commandments of God we are not following God (Matthew 15:3-9)

There is not one scripture in all of God's Word that says that God's 4th Commandment is now ABOLISHED and we are now commanded to KEEP Sunday as a Holy day.

Who should we follow the teachings and traditions of men or the Word of God? Who should we believe the Words of men or the Word of God?

In times of ignorance God winks at but now ,<when a KNOWLEDGE of the truth has come> calls all men everywhere to REPENT (FOLLOW) (Acts 17:30-31).
 
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Marco70

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No you have not proven anything. How can you claim that when you have not responded to the scriptures in God's WORD that disagree with you? You have only provided your own words over God's WORD.

Please go ahead and copy and paste your responses it makes no difference as the scriptures already provided that you have not responded to only show your in error.

Please provide where you say you have proven something. I am happy to re-post the scriptures that disagree with you and you have not responded to.

................

Which ever way you want to spin it. SIN is the transgression of God's LAW (James 2:9-11; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4).

Those who CONTINUE in UNREPENTANT SIN will NOT enter into the KINGDOM of HEAVEN.

................

God's 4th commandment is one of the ten (Exodus 20:8-11) If we knowingly break it when God asks us not to we stand guilty before God of committing sin (James 2:8-12). If we do not seek him in repentance and forgiveness we are in danger of the Judgement (Hebrews 10:26-27)

Sunday worship is a tradition and teaching of man that has led many to break the commandments of God. Jesus says that if we follow the traditions of man that break the commandments of God we are not following God (Matthew 15:3-9)

There is not one scripture in all of God's Word that says that God's 4th Commandment is now ABOLISHED and we are now commanded to KEEP Sunday as a Holy day.

Who should we follow the teachings and traditions of men or the Word of God? Who should we believe the Words of men or the Word of God?

In times of ignorance God winks at but now ,<when a KNOWLEDGE of the truth has come> calls all men everywhere to REPENT (FOLLOW) (Acts 17:30-31).
More bearing of false witness. I responded to Gal 2:16&17, James2:10 and rom3:31 if I remember correctly. I will repeat this. Your problem is you don't understand the message, therefore you have to scurry around trying to find scripture, you then try to claim overturns the plain word of God I quoted to you. The bible states the Christian is made alive with Christ/saved even when they are dead in transgression/sin. The bible states while we seek justification in Christ it is evident we ourselves are sinners/found among the sinners. You say you will repost scripture that disagrees with me. What you really mean is you will repost scripture that disagrees with God's word, for that is what I am quoting,
Yep, sin is the transgression of the law.
Your continued quoting about the fourth commandment is immaterial, for you do not even know if a believer must be conscious they sin by failing obey the law in their heart do you. Neither do you understand the message, otherwise you wouldn't be trying to find scripture to contradict scripture. Hopeless!
 
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Marco70

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So what they're really promoting is God is a failure. Isn't this bringing God down to be like us?
I agree. When I read your post, it immediately struck me they must believe God fails to have unfailing love for his children, as he had for King David. For they say if you infringe the rules you are in danger of the fires of hell/placed in a condemned/unsaved state. That is not compatible with a loving God, and it disagrees with the core foundation upon which the NC stands:
Their sins and lawless deeds I will remember no more
 
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Hi T7C, nice to see someone wanting to discuss the OP here. :oldthumbsup:

Thanks on two counts.

1. To this day no one has adressed the OP here and all the scrptrues in them so and most people here want to talk about everything else but the OP here which is about COL 2. So thanks for helping to bring the thread back on topic. Many thanks

2. How nice it is to see someone else who studies God's WORD for themselves. I read most of your posts on COL 2 and was amazed how similar they were to my own bible study on the topic. This is very encouraging for me personally. So thanks that you let God use you to provide a blessing to me personally.:clap:

Also I liked one post in particular that I would like to add to my own study if you do not mind? It is from POINT 2 handwriting of Moses. I have come to the same conclusion but you had more scriptures linking the OLD and NEW Testaments scriptures. So I was hopeing if you do not mind I will add these to by own study?

Ok thanks. So nice to see someone who studies and loves God's WORD and likes to share it!

Don't expent many to respond to your posts and the scriptures in them here as they cannot. I am sure those passing by however may read it. Thanks again

Happy Sabbath my time to all
Sure, everything is free, for it was freely given unto me from Heaven, and was never mine to begin with. :)
 
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