COL 2:14-17 The REAL truth from God's Word

Marco70 · Apr 27, 2018

The problem where obedience was concerned was always the moral law/TC. For what we often term the legalistic law could be faultlessly obeyed. In rom ch 7, when Paul stressed the need to die to the law, we are released from the law, he gave an example of why this must be. The example he gave was: Thou shalt not covet, which is one of the TC. He spends the rest of the chapter, explaining how he was condemned by that particular commandment as a Pharisee.
You would not need to die to a legalistic law, only a moral law. For, you could be righteous under a legalistic law only

The7thColporteur · Apr 27, 2018

Marco70 said:
...If you insist your sins and lawless deeds will be remembered, you have no new covenant

Remembered sins [ie forgotten sins], are in a differing location than the recorded sins in the books of Heaven.

[Books of Heaven]

God has various "books" of records that are kept:

Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written. Exodus 32:32 KJB

And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book. Exodus 32:33 KJB

...Thou tellest my wanderings: put thou my tears into thy bottle: [are they] not in thy book. Psalms 56:8 KJB

...Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all [my members] were written, [which] in continuance were fashioned, when [as yet there was] none of them. Psalms 139:16 KJB

And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation [even] to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. Daniel 12:1 KJB

And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals. Revelation 5:1 KJB

And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof? Revelation 5:2 KJB

And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon. Revelation 5:3 KJB

And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon. Revelation 5:4 KJB

And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof. Revelation 5:5 KJB

And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne. Revelation 5:7 KJB

And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four [and] twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints. Revelation 5:8 KJB

And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; Revelation 5:9 KJB

And I intreat thee also, true yokefellow, help those women which laboured with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and [with] other my fellowlabourers, whose names [are] in the book of life. Philippians 4:3 KJB

He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. Revelation 3:5 KJB

And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. Revelation 13:8 KJB

The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is. Revelation 17:8 KJB

And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. Revelation 20:12 KJB

And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. Revelation 20:15 KJB

And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither [whatsoever] worketh abomination, or [maketh] a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life. Revelation 21:27 KJB

And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and [from] the things which are written in this book. Revelation 22:19 KJB

Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous. Psalms 69:28 KJB

Then they that feared the LORD spake often one to another: and the LORD hearkened, and heard [it], and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the LORD, and that thought upon his name. Malachi 3:16 KJB

I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, [that] I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live: Deuteronomy 30:19 KJB

Gather unto me all the elders of your tribes, and your officers, that I may speak these words in their ears, and call heaven and earth to record against them. Deuteronomy 31:28 KJB

Also now, behold, my witness [is] in heaven, and my record [is] on high. Job 16:19

Moreover I call God for a record upon my soul, that to spare you I came not as yet unto Corinth. 2 Corinthians 1:23 KJB

For God is my record, how greatly I long after you all in the bowels of Jesus Christ. Philippians 1:8 KJB

And he spread it before me; and it [was] written within and without: and [there was] written therein lamentations, and mourning, and woe. Ezekiel 2:10 KJB

But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, [and] doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked [man] doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die. Ezekiel 18:24 KJB

[[To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David, when Nathan the prophet came unto him, after he had gone in to Bathsheba.]] Have mercy upon me, O God, according to thy lovingkindness: according unto the multitude of thy tender mercies blot out my transgressions. Psalms 51:1 KJB

Hide thy face from my sins, and blot out all mine iniquities. Psalms 51:9 KJB

Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; Acts 3:19 KJB

For though thou wash thee with nitre, and take thee much soap, [yet] thine iniquity is marked before me, saith the Lord GOD. Jeremiah 2:22 KJB

And cover not their iniquity, and let not their sin be blotted out from before thee: for they have provoked [thee] to anger before the builders. Nehemiah 4:5 KJB

Yet, LORD, thou knowest all their counsel against me to slay [me]: forgive not their iniquity, neither blot out their sin from thy sight, but let them be overthrown before thee; deal [thus] with them in the time of thine anger. Jeremiah 18:23 KJB

Let the iniquity of his fathers be remembered with the LORD; and let not the sin of his mother be blotted out. Psalms 109:14 KJB

Behold, [it is] written before me: I will not keep silence, but will recompense, even recompense into their bosom, Isaiah 65:6 KJB

Your iniquities, and the iniquities of your fathers together, saith the LORD, which have burned incense upon the mountains, and blasphemed me upon the hills: therefore will I measure their former work into their bosom. Isaiah 65:7 KJB

If the book is read, then the sin can be remembered.

For instance, a parable of sorts. I have a set of car keys. I want to keep them in a safe place. I write down a location that I store them in for safe keeping. Months go by and I cannot remember them. If I look in the book, can I remember?

Heaven has books of Record.
God has a mind.

They are two things, not one. One can refresh the other.

Forgiveness can be revoked, as cited earlier:

A person can indeed lose their salvation, as it is written in Leviticus 23; Deuteronomy 30; 1 Samuel 10 & 1 Chronicles 10; Jeremiah 17; Ezekiel 3 & 33, Matthew 12 & 18; Acts 4-5; 1 Corinthians 15; Hebrews 6 & 10; James 1; 2 Peter; Revelation 3 KJB etc, and so on. - [link]

Marco70 · Apr 27, 2018

When Paul speaks of dying to the law, we know he is referring to a righteousness of observing the law.
IE:
Christ is the end of the law unto righteousness for everyone who believeth Rom 10:4

However. If you state you can only be in a righteous/saved state before God if you obey the law/TC, you are in effect stating your righteousness hinges on observing the law.
The power of sin is the law(of righteousness) 1Cor15:56

Therefore, sins power remains firmly in place in your life

Marco70 · Apr 27, 2018

So, my brothers and sisters, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God. 5 For when we were in the realm of the flesh,a]'>[a] the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in us, so that we bore fruit for death. 6 But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.

The law and sin
7 What shall we say, then? Is the law sinful? Certainly not! Nevertheless, I would not have known what sin was had it not been for the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, ‘You shall not covet.’b]'>[b] 8 But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of coveting. For apart from the law, sin was dead. 9 Once I was alive apart from the law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. 10 I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death. 11 For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death. 12 So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good.

13 Did that which is good, then, become death to me? By no means! Nevertheless, in order that sin might be recognised as sin, it used what is good to bring about my death, so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful.

14 We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature.c]'>[c] For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do – this I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

21 So I find this law at work: although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; 23 but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? 25 Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!

So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful natured]'>[d] a slave to the law of sin.

Rom 7:4-25

The above all refers to the moral law of the TC

Marco70 · Apr 27, 2018

Jesus constantly warned his disciples to beware of the teachers of the law and Pharisees, why?

Be on your guard against the yeast of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy.
Luke 1:12

Why was their yeast hypocrisy?

The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. 3 So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practise what they preach. 4 They tie up heavy, cumbersome loads and put them on other people’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them.
Matt23:2-4

Teachers of the law will never practice what they preach for:
the letter kills 2Cor3:6

Marco70 · Apr 27, 2018

Beware of those who constantly quote the greek. They rely on interpreting what is written through their academic minds. The Holy Spirit does not rely on you understanding the Greek, in order to teach you spiritual truth from God's word(I wasn't in anyway referring to you KluteDavid)

The7thColporteur · Apr 27, 2018

klutedavid said:
...You will notice this difference when you look up quotations in the New Testament, that cannot be found in the Old Testament.

First of all this is non-sequitur to Colossians 2 and you know it. Stop distracting people.

Also, Origen was making up the LXX in his Hexapla, as cited to you. This is the reason that the so-called LXX [of Origen] reads like the NT. Additonally, there is no rule in scripture, that when a citation is utilized by a NT writer from an OT text that it had to be word for word, but could be used as the Holy Ghost led. We do it all the time. Paul did it constantly. Look at Hebrews 10:5 and compared to Psalms 40:6. What happens is, that Paul will cite a partial verse and mix them with another partial verse from another place. This was known to be done even in the OT, see Isaiah 28:10-13 KJB.

God also uses multiple words that mean the same thing, see Thou shalt not kill [OT], and thou shalt not murder [NT], as Jesus cited it. See also the OT, in which God uses three words to describe creation that all mean the same thing, see Created, Made and Formed Isaiah 43:7 KJB. Same with Agape, Phileo, etc.

Marco70 · Apr 27, 2018

I find it strange. Our SDA friends acknowledge the law is written on the mind and placed on the heart of the believer. They also acknowledge that through the law we become conscious of sin.
However, they(somehow) find it plausible that Christians can then sin in ignorance of the law placed within them.

The7thColporteur · Apr 27, 2018

Marco70 said:
Beware of those who constantly quote the greek. They rely on interpreting what is written through their academic minds. The Holy Spirit does not rely on you understanding the Greek, in order to teach you spiritual truth from God's word(I wasn't in anyway referring to you KluteDavid)

I cite the Greek [or Hebrew, etc] because that's what people here do. I dislike doing it.

I agree with your last statement wholeheartedly.

Marco70 · Apr 27, 2018

The human mind cannot rationalise that in order to see victory over sin you must die to a righteousness of observing the law. Man, in his natural academic mind believes you get what you deserve, you get what you earn. And so, he carries that thinking forward into his Christianity.
Of course, people cannot hide from the fact the NT states relentlessly the Christian is not under law, so, they have to think up grand theology to reinvent the wheel as it were.

However, tell someone they can only be in a saved state if they observe the law, and they will live their life under a righteousness of observing the law. That is the reality, even if those with head knowledge fail to see it

Marco70 · Apr 27, 2018

The truly born again Christian is only too aware of his shortcomings/faults/sin. He hates them, feels bad about them and wants more than anything to see victory over them.
How would such a sincere person feel, when someone comes along and tells them they cannot be in a saved state if they fail to observe the law/commit sin. Not very nice, or loving is it. No compassion either. Does the person doing this preaching fully observe the law themselves? No! For: The letter kills

Marco70 · Apr 27, 2018

The Spirit of the Lord is on me,
because he has anointed me
to proclaim good news to the poor.
He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners
and recovery of sight for the blind,
to set the oppressed free,
19 to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favour.
Luke 4:16-18

Why were the people blind and oppressed?
The teachers of the law and Pharisees made them that way

LoveGodsWord · Apr 27, 2018

The7thColporteur said:
[5] In verse 16 there is a list of "ordinances" that are found given in that order [and other], in the Old Testament, what are they referring to there, and where is Paul quoting from?

Colossians 2:16 KJB Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath [days]:

Paul is quoting from (you will want to look up that word “solemnities”):

Ezekiel 45:17 KJB And it shall be the prince's part to give burnt offerings, and meat offerings, and drink offerings, in the feasts, and in the new moons, and in the sabbaths, in all solemnities of the house of Israel: he shall prepare the sin offering, and the meat offering, and the burnt offering, and the peace offerings, to make reconciliation for the house of Israel.

Hi T7C, nice to see someone wanting to discuss the OP here. :oldthumbsup:

Thanks on two counts.

1. To this day no one has adressed the OP here and all the scrptrues in them so and most people here want to talk about everything else but the OP here which is about COL 2. So thanks for helping to bring the thread back on topic. Many thanks

2. How nice it is to see someone else who studies God's WORD for themselves. I read most of your posts on COL 2 and was amazed how similar they were to my own bible study on the topic. This is very encouraging for me personally. So thanks that you let God use you to provide a blessing to me personally. :clap:

Also I liked one post in particular that I would like to add to my own study if you do not mind? It is from POINT 2 handwriting of Moses. I have come to the same conclusion but you had more scriptures linking the OLD and NEW Testaments scriptures. So I was hopeing if you do not mind I will add these to by own study?

Ok thanks. So nice to see someone who studies and loves God's WORD and likes to share it!

Don't expent many to respond to your posts and the scriptures in them here as they cannot. I am sure those passing by however may read it. Thanks again

Happy Sabbath my time to all

LoveGodsWord · Apr 27, 2018

Bob S said:
The man beautifully describes Paul's word and you reply as an ungrat. No wonder Paul wrote: 2Cor3:
Even today when the proclamations of that old, bankrupt government are read out, they can’t see through it. Only Christ can get rid of the veil so they can see for themselves that there’s nothing there.

16-18 Whenever, though, they turn to face God as Moses did, God removes the veil and there they are—face-to-face! They suddenly recognize that God is a living, personal presence, not a piece of chiseled stone. And when God is personally present, a living Spirit, that old, constricting legislation is recognized as obsolete. We’re free of it! All of us! Nothing between us and God, our faces shining with the brightness of his face. And so we are transfigured much like the Messiah, our lives gradually becoming brighter and more beautiful as God enters our lives and we become like him.

Hello Bob, a reply with scripture was made because what was presented was unbiblical. Just like your interpretation of 2COR 3.

Did you have any scripture to share? You are also welcome to respond to the posts with the scriptures in them I have provided that prove you and your friends errors or read and respond to the OP here. So far you have not.

LoveGodsWord · Apr 27, 2018

listed said:
Hello David, thanks for your post.

You are quoting the wrong greek word. The GREEK quoted above from the OP is from the GREEEK word used for "ORDINANCE" in Colossians 2:14. Here is the word for word from the GREEK STRONGS Dictionary..

Hebrew and Greek Dictionaries w/TVM, Strong - G1378; ORDINANCE; δόγμα; dogma;
dog'-mah From the base of G1380; a law; civil, ceremonial or ecclesiastical: - decree, ordinance.

Hope this helps.

Click to expand...

The word is defined as the rules and requirements of the law of Moses; carrying a suggestion of severity and of threatened judgment

There are many hebrew and greek dictionaries out there. I choose Strong's Concordence for mine which says..

1. Strong's; Hebrew and Greek Dictionaries w/TVM, James Strong
ORDINANCE - G1378
δόγμα
dogma
dog'-mah
From the base of G1380; a law; civil, ceremonial or ecclesiastical: - decree, ordinance.

or

2. Mickelsons Enhanced Strong's Dictionary of the Hebrew and Greek Testaments.
ORDINANCE -G1378 δόγμα dogma (d̮og'-ma) n.
1. that which is supposed as good or which seems right (whether it actually is or not).
2. concisely an opinion on a matter.
3. by conclusion a decree or ordinance; civil, ceremonial or ecclesiastical.
[from the base of G1380]
KJV: decree, ordinance Root(s): G1380 See also: G1379

links very nicely with the 200+ scriptures here in the OP showing that COL 2:14 is talking about the SHADOW laws of ORDINANCES from the MOSIAC BOOK of the COVENANT for remission of SIN.

Disagree? Then state your case lets talk about the OP here.

As said earlier which ever way you want to spin it or whatever dictionary you wish to use does not change the scripture of COL 2:14 which says laws in ORDINANCES that were written in a manuscript (book) not the 10 commandments which is a reference to the SHADOW laws of the MOSAIC BOOK of the OLD COVENANT.

LoveGodsWord · Apr 27, 2018

listed said:
LoveGodsWord said: ↑
Simply and only that the GREEK Word for ORDINANCE as used G1378; meaning; civil, ceremonial or ecclesiastical law from COL 2 :14 comes from G1380 nothing more.

Hope that helps.

Click to expand...

You're trying to change words.

Sorry listed I cannot take credit as they are not my words. They are the word meanings of ORDINANCE from COL 2:14. I provided from the Concordence references earlier..

1. Strong's; Hebrew and Greek Dictionaries w/TVM, James Strong
ORDINANCE - G1378
δόγμα
dogma
dog'-mah
From the base of G1380; a law; civil, ceremonial or ecclesiastical: - decree, ordinance.

2. Mickelsons Enhanced Strong's Dictionary of the Hebrew and Greek Testaments.
ORDINANCE -G1378 δόγμα dogma (d̮og'-ma) n.
1. that which is supposed as good or which seems right (whether it actually is or not).
2. concisely an opinion on a matter.
3. by conclusion a decree or ordinance; civil, ceremonial or ecclesiastical.
[from the base of G1380]
KJV: decree, ordinance Root(s): G1380 See also: G1379

Both of which are used in "The Word" and "Bible Analyzer" bible study software and are standalone texts. You will also find it used in the Biblehub linked.

Even if you ignore these references it does not change the scripture which refered to the laws in ORDINANCES not the 10 Commandments. Which ever way you want to spin it COL 2 is discussing the SHADOW laws from the MOSSIAC BOOK of the OLD COVENANT.

Hope this helps.

LoveGodsWord · Apr 27, 2018

listed said:
LoveGodsWord said: ↑
Why are you not able to respond to the whole post above yours? I can understand, there is a lot of scripture that disagrees with your teaching that people can be saved while CONTINUING in KNOWN unrepentant sin

Click to expand...

He did. And like you didn't make any direct comment on the posted Scripture.

Now listed are you telling the truth now? Please provide proof of you claim. If you cannot I will leave this between you and God.

LoveGodsWord · Apr 27, 2018

listed said:
LoveGodsWord said: ↑
All I see is your words over God's WORD. Do you have any scripture?

Click to expand...

You don't recognize a direct reference to the ten commandments? Surely you're putting us on.

Prove your point. So far you have not. Where are your scriptures?

LoveGodsWord · Apr 27, 2018

listed said:
LoveGodsWord said: ↑
Actually I do. That is why I respond to most posts here with scripture. Only God's WORD is true and we should BELIEVE and FOLLOW him who calls us in LOVE to LOVE another.

Click to expand...

Yes we note your c&p spam posts.

Thankyou for your honestly. Now if I do provide God's WORD to show your in error why do you choose not to believe it?

LoveGodsWord · Apr 27, 2018

listed said:
LoveGodsWord said: ↑
Should read; will accept nothing but agreement to the WORD OF GOD. I see you have not presented anything but your own words.

Click to expand...

Please don't try to put words in my mouth. You don't speak for me. You won't acknowledge and address any Scripture from me.

That is not true. Your words are your own and you use them. This I have agreed with in many posts already. I acknowledge all the scripture and address the posts which scripture in them so that statement is not true. It is your interpretation of the scripture that is the problem that is why scripture is shared with you but you choose not to believe it. I do not judge you as it is between you and God as they are God's WORD not mine.

COL 2:14-17 The REAL truth from God's Word

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