America will be destroyed by the Great Tribulation, according to Revelation 17:11.

Stonehaven said:

First of all, there is an oversight in your argument, which is where the argument is flawed.

Since Revelation 17 says that there are also ten horns, or ten kings, which means that those seven or eight kingdoms are probably a subset of the larger group:-

Revelation 17:12-13
12 “The ten horns which you saw are ten kings who have received no kingdom as yet, but they receive authority for one hour as kings with the beast. 13 These are of one mind, and they will give their power and authority to the beast. 14 These will make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, for He is Lord of lords and King of kings; and those who are with Him are called, chosen, and faithful.”

So, you are saying that a disparate group of countries will "Make war on the Lamb" all at once, but this is extremely unlikely given the disparate nature of those countries.

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I don't do flaws brother. I wait upon the Lord instead of inserting my own ideas like most people.

Those 7 have nothing to do with the 10, the 10 come up with the Little Horn who is the 7th Head of a figurative Beast. The 7th Comes out of the 6th Head or Fourth Beast, as does the 10 Horns. Demonstration:

1.) 1st Head = Egypt ( Enslaved Israel )
2.) 2nd Head = Assyria ( Captured the 10 Northern Tribes, battle with Judah. )
3.) 3rd Head = Babylon ( Daniel was shown the Beasts from THIS POINT ON !! To the end. )
4.) 4th Head = Persia ( Ruled over Israel, God gave Israel favor with Cyrus. )
5.) 5th Head = Greece ( Ruled over Judah and the Mediterranean Sea Region )
6.) 6th Head = Rome............Ruled over Israel and the Mediterranean Sea Region, Rome was the Fourth Beast of Daniel, Rome Ceased being a Beast when it dispersed Israel the world over in the diaspora circa 70-125 AD............The Beast was not a Beast over Israel after this OF COURSE, there was no Israel anymore, God saw them a Dead Men's Bones per the Valley of Dry Bones Prophecy................Israel is born again in 1948, only now after nigh 2000 years can we have the FINAL BEAST come forth, when he Conquers Jerusalem/Israel, he will once again bring back the Beast over Israel, but this will be a Seventh Head of the Beast, which arises out of the Fourth Beast or 6th Head of the Beast............7th Head comes forth, he has 10 Kings that arise with him.

7.) 7th Head = The Anti-Christ who Conquers Jerusalem/Israel and is given the power by 10 Kings who arise with him out of the Fourth Beast/European Union/6th Head. He becomes THE BEAST for 42 Months. He will enslave Israel and kill as many Jews as he possibly can.

So the 10 Nations that wind up being the final vestiges of the European Union make up this set of 10 nations that give their power unto THIS MAN/THE BEAST. As per making war with the Lamb, the whole world is Babylon, and Rev. 16:9 tells you who comes against Jesus when he lands on Mt. Zion, you just have to look back to the 6th Vial being poured out. The Kings of the East (Iran, Iraq, Turkey) the Beast and his Minions (European Union) and the THREE DEMON FROGS then entice the Nations of the WHOLE WORLD to gather unto Aramageddon.

Rev. 16:12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared. 13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. 14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

Rev. 16:19 And the great city(Jerusalem/EARTHQUAKE) was divided into three parts, and the cities of the (BABYLON) nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.

So what does God see as BABYLON? The Nations that Gather together at Armageddon to do battle against Him. Most of these people have taken the Mark of the Beast and thus have NO HOPE, thus they are going to battle against God. But YES, the Countries of the WHOLE WORLD come together to try to defeat God. So as you see, I go by facts, not theories brother.

Stonehaven said:

Ultimately, the "correct" interpretation is anybody's guess, since there are no "right" or "wrong" answers; but the person with the Stick hand is the only one who could ever make a difference, and His interpretation is the only meaningful one in terms of its "real world applications", since God alone is Judge; and only God can make things happen according to his own interpretation of the Scripture.

Ultimately, God's interpretation of this Scripture is the only one which would count on the Last day of Judgement - When God will Judge the entire earth (Isaiah 24:1, Revelation 20:9) and Judgement of the Dead would also take place in the Spiritual world (Revelation 20:11-15, 21:8).

Since God alone would decide who will live or not (2 Corinthians 5:10, Revelation 20:13), and also which countries would survive or not (Matthew 25:33).

So, if God said he wants to destroy the United States, you can be damned well sure that He will keep his PROMISE. John 5:23, 5:30, 7:16, 10:30, 14:7

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There is no such thing as predestination, we decide our own fates brother.

Stonehaven said:

PS. Now, Revelation 7:9 is concerning the immediate survivors of the Tribulation, but the long term survival of any country is not guaranteed - Since we are not to assume that there would be "equal" numbers of survivors from every country, and some countries may have too few survivors to guarantee their long term survival in the new heaven and earth and the New Jerusalem.

For lack of numbers, those countries may well disappear altogether, by way of their assimilation with larger groups.

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Rev. 7:9 is just the opposite brother, it is the Church in heaven, it has nothing to do with those that die during the Tribulation period. Those are told via the 5th Seal that they must wait until their fellow brothers are killed also, meaning they must wait until the Beasts 42 month reign of terror is over. The GREAT TRIBULATION is the 2000 year Church Age as in 2000>7.

Jesus said we would have tribulation.

Revealing Times said:

Rev. 7:9 is just the opposite brother, it is the Church in heaven, it has nothing to do with those that die during the Tribulation period.

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Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

Rev 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

.

Revealing Times said:

I don't do flaws brother. I wait upon the Lord instead of inserting my own ideas like most people.

Those 7 have nothing to do with the 10, the 10 come up with the Little Horn who is the 7th Head of a figurative Beast. The 7th Comes out of the 6th Head or Fourth Beast, as does the 10 Horns. Demonstration:

1.) 1st Head = Egypt ( Enslaved Israel )
2.) 2nd Head = Assyria ( Captured the 10 Northern Tribes, battle with Judah. )
3.) 3rd Head = Babylon ( Daniel was shown the Beasts from THIS POINT ON !! To the end. )
4.) 4th Head = Persia ( Ruled over Israel, God gave Israel favor with Cyrus. )
5.) 5th Head = Greece ( Ruled over Judah and the Mediterranean Sea Region )
6.) 6th Head = Rome............Ruled over Israel and the Mediterranean Sea Region, Rome was the Fourth Beast of Daniel, Rome Ceased being a Beast when it dispersed Israel the world over in the diaspora circa 70-125 AD............The Beast was not a Beast over Israel after this OF COURSE, there was no Israel anymore, God saw them a Dead Men's Bones per the Valley of Dry Bones Prophecy................Israel is born again in 1948, only now after nigh 2000 years can we have the FINAL BEAST come forth, when he Conquers Jerusalem/Israel, he will once again bring back the Beast over Israel, but this will be a Seventh Head of the Beast, which arises out of the Fourth Beast or 6th Head of the Beast............7th Head comes forth, he has 10 Kings that arise with him.

7.) 7th Head = The Anti-Christ who Conquers Jerusalem/Israel and is given the power by 10 Kings who arise with him out of the Fourth Beast/European Union/6th Head. He becomes THE BEAST for 42 Months. He will enslave Israel and kill as many Jews as he possibly can.

So the 10 Nations that wind up being the final vestiges of the European Union make up this set of 10 nations that give their power unto THIS MAN/THE BEAST. As per making war with the Lamb, the whole world is Babylon, and Rev. 16:9 tells you who comes against Jesus when he lands on Mt. Zion, you just have to look back to the 6th Vial being poured out. The Kings of the East (Iran, Iraq, Turkey) the Beast and his Minions (European Union) and the THREE DEMON FROGS then entice the Nations of the WHOLE WORLD to gather unto Aramageddon.

Rev. 16:12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared. 13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. 14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

Rev. 16:19 And the great city(Jerusalem/EARTHQUAKE) was divided into three parts, and the cities of the (BABYLON) nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.

So what does God see as BABYLON? The Nations that Gather together at Armageddon to do battle against Him. Most of these people have taken the Mark of the Beast and thus have NO HOPE, thus they are going to battle against God. But YES, the Countries of the WHOLE WORLD come together to try to defeat God. So as you see, I go by facts, not theories brother.


There is no such thing as predestination, we decide our own fates brother.


Rev. 7:9 is just the opposite brother, it is the Church in heaven, it has nothing to do with those that die during the Tribulation period. Those are told via the 5th Seal that they must wait until their fellow brothers are killed also, meaning they must wait until the Beasts 42 month reign of terror is over. The GREAT TRIBULATION is the 2000 year Church Age as in 2000>7.

Jesus said we would have tribulation.

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Well, I think we can agree to disagree.

Despite everything you have written, nothing you have said so far could convince me that "God won't destroy the United States", whose destruction is long since foretold in Revelation 18.

g001dengates said:

(?) (?) (?)

Adam was Perfect, he Walked with God
(Jude 1:14, 1 Timothy 2:14)
Adam's Son Enoch was Perfect, he also Walked with God
(Gen 5:24)
Adam's Son Noah was Perfect, he also Walked with God
(Gen 6:9)

Seth was imperfect, he son Enos did not walk with God
(Gen. 4:25-26)
Cain was imperfect, his sons became God's Enemy (could not see god)
(Gen. 4:24)
Lamech was imperfect, his sons became God's Enemy (could not see god)
(Gen. 4:23)

I CHRONICLES 1:1 Adam, Sheth, Enosh (?),
I CHRONICLES 1:2 Kenan, Mahalaleel, Jered,
I CHRONICLES 1:3 Henoch, Methuselah, Lamech,
I CHRONICLES 1:4 Noah, Shem, Ham, and Japheth.

(Genetic Dan had the title of "Head of the Priesthood", that means God used them to carry the Gospel, even if no written bible existed .................... when God finished that period/cycle, Noah's Generation of that day was finished with the flood ........................ God sentenced Genetic Dan to death, and all the nations for not obeying the commandment, but God does not act on this until the end of time) (God does not call every Tribe in the Bible a Lion, God did call "Genetic Dan" a Lion, and because of that, it was killed)
.....................
.....................
.....................
(God calls Judah a Lion, and because of that, Satan wants to kill it, but God never gave that Commandment or did God give this Commandment!?)
.....................
.....................
.....................
REVELATION 17:10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, [and] the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.
REVELATION 17:11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

(Enoch/Enos) (Abram/Abraham) (Two Witnesses/Abaddon and Apollyon) The only personality this description applies to is "Enoch/Enos". So this could not of applied to the USA, but God did answer mankind a second time, since the Generations of Genesis 5 and 11, did not, and could not apply to mankind. Because they could not apply to mankind, God answered a second time with Abraham (the homosapien), and this is what God had said:

GENESIS 18:32 And he said, Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak yet but this once: Peradventure ten shall be found there. And he said, I will not destroy [it] for ten's sake.
GENESIS 18:33 And the LORD went his way, as soon as he had left communing with Abraham: and Abraham returned unto his place.

(What God is teaching is this, Enoch served God for a season and that was counted for faith, but when that season was over, God sent Enoch away and called him, Enos ........................... Moses also served God for a season, and when that season was finished, God took him up a mountain and his disappeared, but we don't know what God eventually called Moses (or did God call Moses "Jannes and Jambres") (So which or how many states of the USA is satan trying to kill with Nuclear Weapons to Challenge God over the Body of Moses?)

1 Delaware December 7, 1787[8]
(ratified) Colony of Delaware
2 Pennsylvania December 12, 1787[10] (City of Philadelphia, Claimed in Revelation)
(ratified) Proprietary Province of Pennsylvania
3 New Jersey December 18, 1787[11]
(ratified) Crown Colony of New Jersey
4 Georgia January 2, 1788[8]
(ratified) Crown Colony of Georgia
5 Connecticut January 9, 1788[12]
(ratified) Crown Colony of Connecticut
6 Massachusetts February 6, 1788[8]
(ratified) Crown Colony of Massachusetts Bay
7 Maryland April 28, 1788[8]
(ratified) Proprietary Province of Maryland
8 South Carolina May 23, 1788[8]
(ratified) Crown Colony of South Carolina
9 New Hampshire June 21, 1788[8]
(ratified) Crown Colony of New Hampshire
10 Virginia June 25, 1788[8]
(ratified)
Crown Colony and Dominion of
Virginia
11 New York July 26, 1788[13]
(ratified) Crown Colony of New York

God lists 50 Entries in Genesis 18, revealed to "Abram/Abraham" and the smallest of the number is "10". This immediately ties to New York City, if you remove "City of Philadelphia, Pennsylvania" (listed in revelation)........................this means satan's real goal is the nuclear elimination of New York City and state (according to Budd Hopkins, John Lennon, Unarius UFO Group, etc)

11 New York July 26, 1788[13]
(ratified) Crown Colony of New York

(The Prophecy is "Joseph's Bones", God placed the bones of Joseph into the earth during the 9/11/2001 Falling Man Moses incident................... whatdoesitmean.com/index1414.htm....................God repeatedly asks for the "Bones of Joseph" to be burned, if you follow "Ejijah"'s Account, or the Account of the Burning Bush and Moses........................the last time I was at Ground Zero in New York City? I don't know, maybe October 25, 2009 ... but I'm sure it was a few years before 9/11/2001) (wiki by date of admission)

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But what exactly is your point?

Stone Chapel said:

Well, I think we can agree to disagree.

Despite everything you have written, nothing you have said so far could convince me that "God won't destroy the United States", whose destruction is long since foretold in Revelation 18.

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Well no one stated what you stated. I said FACTUALLY that Babylon is the WHOLE WORLD, so isn't America a part of the WORLD? You have to slow your roll and think a little to get to the proper thought process.

Stonehaven said:

Revelation 17:11 - The beast that was, and is not, is himself also the eighth, and is of the seven, and is going to perdition.

This means that America is the beast (or Antichrist nation) whose status is ambiguous, both as a member of the G7 and G8 group of countries.

But ultimately, it will be destroyed by the Great Tribulation, which is according to V11.

Discuss.

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Stonehaven, your rationale seems to have a flaw as far as there not being one group of 7 kings and another group of 8 kings.

So the point you are making of America belonging to both groups is not founded on what is in the text because there is not two groups - one 7 king group and an additional 8 king group.

It is just a one 7 king group. Added to that 7 king group, the beast will be an eighth king.

Since 6 of the kings have already accounted for in history as five fallen and one is, it is only king 7 left to go - which that king 7 becomes king 8 - by reason of being killed and brought back to life.
_____________________________________________________________

The beast is not America. We don't have enough information to know about America. It is likely that the United States and Canada will align themselves with the EU, which ten of the EU's leaders will plead the EU to the beast person - during the last 42 months.

Douggg said:

Stonehaven, your rationale seems to have a flaw as far as there not being one group of 7 kings and another group of 8 kings.

So the point you are making of America belonging to both groups is not founded on what is in the text because there is not two groups - one 7 king group and an additional 8 king group.

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No, he never said that "there are two distinctive groups", since the Original Group 7 is simply a subset of the latter G8 - The latter being different due to Russia joining the G7 to make it the G8.

However, the existence of the expanded G8 doesn't negate that the G7 is still a valid concept in international politics - Since all the members of the G7 are developed countries with high per capita income, which means that Russia would be automatically disqualified due to its low per capita income (Which is less than India's GDP per capita).

However, the G8 is a slightly expanded group of countries, which are all strategically important in terms of economic influence, irrespective of per capita income - Russia is the only member of the G8 with a low per capita income, but it's still a major economic power due to its supply of oil and gas, which are strategically important.

Now, the existence of the G20 does not in anyway negate the importance of the Original G7, no more so than the G8 would negate the importance of the G7.

Notwithstanding the importance of the G7, the existence of the G8 and G20 are still valid in political science.

Since the G8 is a subset of the G20, and the G7 is a subset of the G8.

Thus, the G7, G8 and G20 are all valid concepts in political science.

Therefore, the G7 and G8 do not represent 2 distinctive groups with nothing in common. Far from it, the G8 is a slightly expanded version of the Original G7.

Douggg said:

The beast is not America. We don't have enough information to know about America. It is likely that the United States and Canada will align themselves with the EU, which ten of the EU's leaders will plead the EU to the beast person - during the last 42 months.

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However, the "Fall of Babylon the Great" is indeed the "Destruction of America as the world's preeminent superpower" - Which is long since foretold in Revelation 18.

By definition, the Babylonian Empire is a geopolitical nation, which was preeminent in its heyday.

However, the 1st century Jewish writers who produced the Book of Revelation have used "Babylon" as code to describe the "Roman Empire, and the Roman occupation of their country".

To avoid being caught they have referred to the Enemy as "Babylon", since the Roman Empire was also preeminent in the 1st century AD.

Now, "America is also Babylon in the 20th & 21st century", since it is the "Modern Resurrected Roman Empire" in the Last days, when Christ is expected to return to Judge the Living and the Dead (Matthew 25:33), and to establish his Millennial kingdom.

Like Babylon the Great, America is still a geopolitical nation, which is the only preeminent superpower in this Modern age.

Thus, America is Babylon the Great, which will be destroyed as a Nation state when Christ returns to reign over the earth.

Stonehaven said:

There is no explicit mention that "America is the beast", as this word is open to interpretation; which means that the "inkblot" could well be a "tree" or "Eskimo", or anything else which you cared to mention.

There are no "right" or "wrong" answers, and everybody has a valid point as concerning the "inkblot" and also What it's supposed to represent; but ultimately, the person with the stick hand would always have the privilege to make his interpretation more meaningful than yours.

Since God alone is Sovereign over his Creation it means that this inkblot could well be considered as "America, the Antichrist nation and God's Enemy on the side of Satan"; and if God is All-powerful, then there is nothing you can do to stay his hand of execution. Romans 9:21

Because something is not expressly mentioned in the Bible doesn't mean to say that it's not real or true, such as the rules of logic and the laws of physics, according to Romans 1:20.

God doesn't need to break any rules at all, nor contradict anything he has said in the Bible to destroy the United States.

America's demise and destruction is perfectly consistent with everything else said in the Bible --------> The Fall of Babylon the Great is long since foretold in Revelation 18.

However, you are perfectly entitled to your own Opinion, and perfectly entitled to disagree; but it won't serve to stay God's hand of execution.

Since God alone has got the power to make his inkblot Real and meaningful.

God has no sympathy for your country, which will be laid ruined by the Great Tribulation. Isaiah 24, Revelation 18

You don't like my interpretation of Revelation 17:11, but that's tough on you.

This is your problem, not mine.

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That's all retarded.

Davy said:

That's all retarded.

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No, it's not retarded to seek refuge in a Third country if the "USA is leading the enemy attacks" and the U.K. Government is proactive in assisting them.

God's people are the Christian Israelites, and no one else has any right to be compared with Christ.

Stone Chapel said:

Therefore, the G7 and G8 do not represent 2 distinctive groups with nothing in common. Far from it, the G8 is a slightly expanded version of the Original G7.

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Okay, your point is well taken regarding the G8 is an expanded version of the G7. It is still not the G7 or the still G8 because the 7 kings are sequential and 5 had already fallen back in John's day. Five fallen, past; one is, present; one not yet come, future.

Revealing Times said:

Well no one stated what you stated. I said FACTUALLY that Babylon is the WHOLE WORLD, so isn't America a part of the WORLD? You have to slow your roll and think a little to get to the proper thought process.

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But there is no Scriptural evidence to support the bold type.

By definition, the Babylonian Empire is a political nation, which was preeminent in its heyday.

Now, the 1st century Jewish writers who wrote Revelation 18 have used "Babylon" as code to describe the "Roman Empire, and the Roman occupation of their country".

But to avoid being caught they used "Babylon" as a label to represent the Enemy, since the Roman Empire was also preeminent in the 1st century AD.

Like Babylon, Rome was also a political nation, which was preeminent in its heyday.

Now, "America is the Modern Resurrected Roman Empire", which makes it "Babylon the Great at the End of Time" - Since it is now the most preeminent superpower in the 21st century - when Jesus will return to reign over the entire earth.

By definition, "Babylon is a political nation", which cannot be the "entire world".

Stone Chapel said:

However, the "Fall of Babylon the Great" is indeed the "Destruction of America as the world's preeminent superpower" - Which is long since foretold in Revelation 18.

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You will have a hard time finding America responsible for...

24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

And....

20 Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her.

America doesn't fit. Mystery Babylon the Great is the invisible kingdom of Satan and the fallen angels that has been in rebellion against God even at the time of Adam.

Here is what you are doing wrong, Stone Chapel. You are reading the language in Revelation 18 - and matching the wealth part, industries, trading activity with America. But if one looks closer, like at the other two verses like 20 and 24, it turns out the language you are looking at is personifying Satan's kingdom as some earthly great city, Babylon the Great,.... not that it is a literal bricks and mortar city (or country). And how it is going to be curtains for his kingdom.

What we need to focus on is not countries of this world, but the Kingdom of God - which conversely Satan's kingdom of Babylon the Great is going to fall. And won't it be great when John, Paul, Daniel, Ezekiel, and all them that mean so much to us will be resurrected into their glorious bodies, and these lowly bodies of our are likewise changed.

Douggg said:

America doesn't fit. Mystery Babylon the Great is the invisible kingdom of Satan and the fallen angels that has been in rebellion against God even at the time of Adam.

Here is what you are doing wrong, Stone Chapel. You are reading the language in Revelation 18 - and matching the wealth part, industries, trading activity with America. But if one looks closer, like at the other two verses like 20 and 24, it turns out the language you are looking at is personifying Satan's kingdom as some earthly great city, Babylon the Great,.... not that it is a literal bricks and mortar city (or country). And how it is going to be curtains for his kingdom.

What we need to focus on is not countries of this world, but the Kingdom of God - which conversely Satan's kingdom of Babylon the Great is going to fall. And won't it be great when John, Paul, Daniel, Ezekiel, and all them that mean so much to us will be resurrected into their glorious bodies, and these lowly bodies of our are likewise changed.

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You mean that Babylon the Great is Satan's counterfeit regime and kingdom over the entire earth?

Stone Chapel said:

You mean that Babylon the Great is Satan's counterfeit regime and kingdom over the entire earth?

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No, it is not a nation or kingdom like a country or empire. It is not trying to counterfeit anything. It is the kingdom of evil, wickedness. It is trying to keep its dominance over the affairs of men, though. It has been around since the rebellion of Satan, the day that iniquity was found in him, Ezekiel 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.

Why do you think Satan was so eager to try and get Jesus to kill himself, and ultimately took part to get Jesus crucified? It was because Satan did not want his own kingdom overshadowing the earth since the garden of Eden to be replaced with the Kingdom of God - so Satan thought that by killing the king, then that would prevent the Kingdom of God from replacing his own.

But to Satan's unawareness at the time (1Corinthians2:7-8), by killing Jesus that was the very thing that allowed to God to forgive man of his sins - while holding Satan and his angels guilty to theirs. Which is, that man is now justified before God. And as it says in Revelation 12, when Satan finds himself cast down to earth, with a time, times, half times, he knows he has but a little time.

Ezekiel 28:
17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.

18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.

19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.

Babylon the Great, fallen is fallen, is talking about the war in heaven (the second heaven) in Revelation 12:7-9, when the end prosecution of Satan and his kingdom begins. The kingdoms of this world at that time to be taken from him and become the kingdoms (nations) of this world become kingdoms of Christ instead, our Lord. The prosecution of Satan and the crumbling of his kingdom lasts the time, times, half times.


What it all boils down to God's judgement on Satan/fallen angels. Humans like the Antichrist, the false prophet, Gog leader of Magog - they are second tier characters, not first tier.

Back in the old testament, there are a vision of a woman put in a big jar, covered, and carried to the plain of Shinar (Babylon) to set a place for her there - the woman was said to be "wickedness".

Well, that is what Satan and his angels traffic in - wickedness".

Okay, get off planet earth a second if you can and envision the cosmos, the universe. Everything inside is currently under Satan's influence and wickedness. The rebellious angels are roaming free, all within the cosmos. That is Babylon the Great at it's essence.

When Babylon the Great is fallen is fallen, it is when Satan and his angels are cast down to the earth. And that great city of theirs will come crashing down in one hour - when Michael and his angels make war on them - and they are cast down to earth, never to reach those heights again. Babylon the Great is just a metaphoric way of saying it.

Stone Chapel, you are sighting a tier low when you try to put Babylon the Great as a human kingdom, or some nation.

Stonehaven said:

This means that America is the beast (or Antichrist nation) whose status is ambiguous, both as a member of the G7 and G8 group of countries.

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America is not in the Bible.

jesus316 said:

America is not in the Bible.

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But the word, "Bible" is not in the Bible, either.

Nor is the "Trinity" to be seen anywhere in the Bible, but this is not to say that the Trinity isn't real. The Trinitarian doctrine is alluded to in Matthew 28:19, 1 John 5:8, and 2 Corinthians 13:14, although there is no explicit mention of it anywhere in the Bible.

There is no explicit mention of America either - Since Revelation 18 was written in the 1st century Roman Empire, long before the Age of Columbus - but "Babylon" is simply code for the most preeminent global superpower of this Modern age, when Christ will return to Judge the Living and the Dead, and to establish his Millennial kingdom.

Stone Chapel said:

No, it's not retarded to seek refuge in a Third country if the "USA is leading the enemy attacks" and the U.K. Government is proactive in assisting them.

God's people are the Christian Israelites, and no one else has any right to be compared with Christ.

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There won't be a country of refuge, Satan's host of world controllers exist in all... countries. They're just like the Masonic lodge, they're everywhere. Jerusalem will be the ruling city over all... nations for the end. Some folks need to study Revelation more closely, and in comparison with OT and NT prophecy in other Bible Books about the very end of this world.

Stonehaven said:

There is no explicit mention that "America is the beast", as this word is open to interpretation; which means that the "inkblot" could well be a "tree" or "Eskimo", or anything else which you cared to mention.

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I shall attempt a better response.

Yet the 'beast' idea in Revelation is... linked to the Bible prophecies which God gave through His OT prophets and also NT prophecies about the end in other Bible Books. Revelation does not stand alone as a Bible study. It must be studied along with the rest of God's Word. And when this is done properly, it's becomes more specific where, who, what, when, and what the Revelation 'beast' is. It certainly ain't just one western nation, nor just one eastern nation, etc. And if it were the USA, it would equally be all the European nations too, and Canada, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa, i.e., all historically Christian nations allied together in NATO.

There are no "right" or "wrong" answers, and everybody has a valid point as concerning the "inkblot" and also What it's supposed to represent; but ultimately, the person with the stick hand would always have the privilege to make his interpretation more meaningful than yours.

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Well, there is a correct answer to the identity of the Revelation 'beast', otherwise it wouldn't involve the Truth. In Rev.13 Jesus showed John 2 separate beasts, not one. The first one is a kingdom beast, the second one is the coming king beast, the Antichrist. It doesn't use the label king, but that's what it's referring to once one has studied about the Rev.12:3-4 ten horned, seven crowned beast Satan first drew a third of the angels into rebellion with. Rev.17 is where the beast person idea is described as a king. So this isn't about the one with the "stick hand", it's about what the Scripture actually says as written, and then using just a little memory of other Scriptures.

Since God alone is Sovereign over his Creation it means that this inkblot could well be considered as "America, the Antichrist nation and God's Enemy on the side of Satan"; and if God is All-powerful, then there is nothing you can do to stay his hand of execution. Romans 9:21

Because something is not expressly mentioned in the Bible doesn't mean to say that it's not real or true, such as the rules of logic and the laws of physics, according to Romans 1:20.

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That's just a very weak assumption not backed by anything, which is why it is retarded.

Because God is Sovereign over His Creation, He tells us of things before they happen, like He said (Isaiah 42:9). He knows already. So when He takes the time to reveal the events for the end of this world in His Revelation, that means He is showing us the events before they happen, and we can rely on what He shows us as the Truth.

And according to the rules of logic, for something to be true, it MUST be supported by fact. So what you're saying is that God's Word has not given us the facts about the Revelation beast, when it actually has! All one need do is study instead of making wild assumptions like you're doing.

America's demise and destruction is perfectly consistent with everything else said in the Bible --------> The Fall of Babylon the Great is long since foretold in Revelation 18.

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You don't even know what the endtime Babylon is per God's Word!

Rev 17:18
18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.
KJV

The Revelation Babylon harlot is a CITY, not a nation! It is Jerusalem for the end:

The identity of the "great city" is given in this verse, where God's two witnesses are killed by the beast that will ascend from the bottomless pit:

Rev 11:7-8
7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
KJV

JERUSALEM is where Jesus Christ was crucified. JERUSALEM will be the Babylon Harlot of Revelation.

Douggg said:

Five fallen, past; one is, present; one not yet come, future.

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That's a point that I find interesting, given that the "present" one at the time of John is Rome. People tend to see Rome as the new Babylon of the future but Revelation 17:8 says that the beast "once was, now is not, and yet will come".

How can the 7th king be Rome when in John's vision the beast to come was at that moment "not". Rome wasn't "not" was it. Rome was very much there! Sorry about the grammar there but I hope that you get what I mean....