Easiest Defense of Sola Scriptura

Albion said:

I would still be interested in the answer to the question--including that proviso.

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I see. Fair enough. The RCC teaches that Scripture is at least materially sufficient in containing all truths that pertain to the faith. She understands the obvious, that this in no way guarantees full understanding of all truths, only that support for the truths may be found there to one degree or another, however vaguely or blatantly presented.

Kaon said:

I am not angry at the bible canon at all. I am (also) pointing out the terminology is misguided, at best, on a colloquial level. There is only One Word of God, and it isn't the bible canon. .

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As I have said before, all kinds of ministers and church leaders from the Pope to Billy Graham have used that term for the Bible itself--and, moreover, the wording is IN the Bible, so...

...I see what you are saying as simply expressing a personal preference. You are entitled to it, but that's about all there is to this.

fhansen said:

I see. Fair enough. The RCC teaches that Scripture is at least materially sufficient in containing all truths that pertain to the faith. She understands the obvious, that this in no way guarantees full understanding of all truths, only that support for the truths may be found there to one degree or another, however vaguely or blatantly presented.

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What I was referring to was your statement that we can trace the idea of Holy Tradition back to some early time in Church History.

Albion said:

As I have said before, all kinds of ministers and church leaders from the Pope to Billy Graham have used that term for the Bible itself--and, moreover, the wording is IN the Bible, so...

...I see what you are saying as simply expressing a personal preference. You are entitled to it, but that's about all there is to this.

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It isn't a personal opinion. Christ is THE Word of God. The canon is not; it has been called that because of delusion. The bible is a book/text; you can be without the bible and still have the Word of God because it is Living.

Many people don't understand the distinction. You may, but young Christians don't know this. And, it can have people doing things like treating the bible as an IDOL (sleeping with it for "protection," for example.) It becomes a talisman, because people don't realize the Word of God is the Living Christ and that is it - everything else is man-compiled.


And, it is on those teachers who tell their laity the wrong thing, and perpetuate it. Too many people are treating the TEXT as the sacred Word of God rather than the One Himself.

AnticipateHisComing said:

Does this mean that the RCC believes that one does not have to understand/believe your traditions that are outside of scripture to be saved?

That has been one of my unanswered questions.
Is there a tradition outside of scripture that is necessary for salvation.

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We don't believe that any of our Traditions are wholly outside of Scripture, but rather that Scripture is sufficiently vague in many areas so that it cannot, without the voice of experience so to speak, always accurately convey the full gospel truth just by virtue of reading it.

Eloy Craft said in post #1658:

A historically balanced view makes obvious that the idea of the written Law being a sole religious authority would have never crossed the Bereans minds.

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Note that it would have, insofar as when testing the truth of teachers, a Jew was always to go:

Isaiah 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

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Eloy Craft said in post #1659:

Say 1000 years ago or so, all the Christians disappeared from the earth and all was left were their bibles. You wouldn't be discussing the Trinity.

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Note that the Trinity was not a doctrine invented by Christians, but is a doctrine taught by sola scriptura (e.g. John 1:1,14).

See also 1 John 2:27.

fhansen said in post #1660:

. . . so, yes, the Holy Spirit is necessary here, not Scripture alone.

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Note that sola scriptura in no way negates the Holy Spirit's teaching of Christians (1 John 2:27), through His scriptures (Ephesians 6:17; 2 Timothy 3:15 to 4:4). Instead, sola scriptura simply means that no human teaching is necessarily true unless it is taught by the Bible itself (Acts 17:11b).

Kaon said in post #1665:

Too many people are treating the TEXT as the sacred Word of God rather than the One Himself.

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Note that it is not either/or, but both/and. For Jesus Christ said:

John 8:31 . . . If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed . . .

And the apostle Paul said:

1 Thessalonians 2:13 ¶For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.

See also 2 Timothy 3:15 to 4:4.

Bible2+ said:

Note that it is not either/or, but both/and. For Jesus Christ said:

John 8:31 . . . If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed . . .

And the apostle Paul said:

1 Thessalonians 2:13 ¶For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.

See also 2 Timothy 3:15 to 4:4.

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The bible canon is not the Word of God, it is a text. Paul is referring to the literal Word of God - and it is Christ and what He said, not what He wrote. In fact, the writing was for the nations of the world that used script and contracts to justify their life; [a man's] word(s) meant nothing to them like it did the Hebrews. They needed printed justification; that was the hearing they responded to. But, the "hearing" from reading script is because other people heard Christ - not read what He said, but heard Him.

The Word of God is the Word of God, and He is Alive. That is why God had His own people raised up by His voice - not like the world (at that time and now) that was dependent on codes, written document and script to justify their life and livelihood.

This is also why God said He would put the Law on our hearts so much so that we won't have to ask our neighbor, "Do you know God?" We don't need any text because the Holy Spirit is the comforter that gives us the resolution to fellowship with the Living Word of God directly

The Living Word of God is not a text, and never has been. That men have qualified a text as the Word of God is on men; Christ has always been the Word He, and His people have spoken of - not a text.

Kaon said in post #1672:

The bible canon is not the Word of God, it is a text.

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Note that a text can be the Word of God.

Mark 7:10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

Kaon said in post #1672:

Paul is referring to the literal Word of God - and it is Christ and what He said, not what He wrote.

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Note that in the Bible the apostles wrote down what Jesus Christ said, making the Bible the Word of God.

John 20:29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

Kaon said in post #1672:

We don't need any text because the Holy Spirit is the comforter that gives us the resolution to fellowship with the Living Word of God directly

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The text helps us not to go astray into our own la-la land of what we think is right, but is not. For:

Proverbs 14:12 There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

Psalms 119:9 Wherewithal shall a young man cleanse his way? by taking heed thereto according to thy word.
10 With my whole heart have I sought thee: O let me not wander from thy commandments.
11 Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee.
12 Blessed art thou, O YHWH: teach me thy statutes.

Albion said:

Well, I am not making up the information that I pass along here, either.

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You ARE though, stating a non-Catholic viewpoint of Catholic doctrine, which is incorrect.

AnticipateHisComing said:

I had a simple question.


You had a simple response, that I questioned.



I don't wish to expand this debate to doctrinal differences. I only point out that you declare scripture insufficient for salvation, that your traditions are NEEDED, but then can't even point out what is definitively missing for salvation.

I certainly get your traditions needed for your church's doctrine. I question how important traditions are to salvation which is the most important goal.

Compare your indecisiveness for your traditions versus the complete unquestioned support for the Bible to be God's Word. Not in the same league.

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I never declare Scripture insufficient. We merely claim that Scripture is not ALL of God's Word.

Root of Jesse said:

You ARE though, stating a non-Catholic viewpoint of Catholic doctrine, which is incorrect.

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I was a Roman Catholic for longer than most of the Catholic warriors here have been, so that line isn't going to work on me.

Root of Jesse said:

I never declare Scripture insufficient. We merely claim that Scripture is not ALL of God's Word.

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...which necessarily means that Scripture is not sufficient.

Bible2+ said:

Note that a text can be the Word of God.

Mark 7:10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.



Note that in the Bible the apostles wrote down what Jesus Christ said, making the Bible the Word of God.

John 20:29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.



The text helps us not to go astray into our own la-la land of what we think is right, but is not. For:

Proverbs 14:12 There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

Psalms 119:9 Wherewithal shall a young man cleanse his way? by taking heed thereto according to thy word.
10 With my whole heart have I sought thee: O let me not wander from thy commandments.
11 Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee.
12 Blessed art thou, O YHWH: teach me thy statutes.

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The Word of God will always be Living - and He is the Christ.

A text is a man's invention; the canonical texts are not sacred. Of course they are here to help us, but the Word of God is written on our hearts. We don't need a text because God told us we didn't. The New Covenant guarantees the Word of God for us without text.


I can't live without God; can one live without a text? Let's put it another way: would it be better for me to learn about by long separated father from other people, or is it better for me to go to him, and develop a relationship with him personally?

Root of Jesse said:

I never declare Scripture insufficient. We merely claim that Scripture is not ALL of God's Word.

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"It is written..."

To be ignorant of this and treat the canonical text as an authoritative text is to be naive of humanity and its carnality. There was a lot shaved off the "textual" sides to square the circle of the canon.

Kaon said in post #1678:

A text is a man's invention . . .

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Note that this is not always the case.

2 Peter 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.

2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God . . .

Acts 1:16 . . . the Holy Spirit by the mouth of David spake . . .

Acts 28:25 . . . Well spake the Holy Spirit by Isaiah the prophet . . .

2 Peter 1:16 . . . we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.

Hebrews 2:1 Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip.
2 For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward;
3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;
4 God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit, according to his own will?

Kaon said in post #1678:

. . . but the Word of God is written on our hearts. We don't need a text because God told us we didn't.

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Note that the Word of God being written on our hearts in no way contradicts that we need a text, as in 2 Timothy 3:15 to 4:4. Instead, the text is there to make sure that we do not make stuff up out of our own hearts, and then try to claim that it is God's Word.

Proverbs 28:26 He that trusteth in his own heart is a fool . . .

Jeremiah 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

Kaon said in post #1678:

The New Covenant guarantees the Word of God for us without text.

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Note that it does not.

Indeed, the Bible, in English translations, sometimes calls the New Covenant the New Testament. For the original Greek word "diatheke" (G1242) can be translated into English as either "covenant" (Hebrews 8:8) or "testament" (Hebrews 9:15). So when Christians refer to the two main parts of the Bible as the Old Testament and the New Testament, what they are really referring to are the two parts of the Bible which focus (for the most part) on the Old Covenant and the New Covenant.

Kaon said in post #1678:

Let's put it another way: would it be better for me to learn about by long separated father from other people, or is it better for me to go to him, and develop a relationship with him personally?

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Note that it is not either/or, but both/and. For the "other people" who wrote the New Testament truly know the Father (1 John 1:3). So if you ignore their writings regarding Him, you could be led astray to follow someone else as your father who is not truly the Father (cf. John 8:44-47).

Also, you could even be deceived into following "another Jesus" (2 Corinthians 11:4).

Indeed, all Christians need to be aware that during the future Antichrist's literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:4-18), even though the world will consciously and openly worship Lucifer (Satan, the dragon) and the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") (Revelation 13:4-8, Revelation 12:9), this will not require that the Antichrist's one-world religion will say that Jesus is evil, or will turn the world against Jesus. For almost the entire world reveres Jesus, at least as being a good man. The Antichrist could confirm this basic world belief, but simply (in his words) "clarify" that while Jesus is indeed a good man, he is not the Christ or the Son of God (1 John 2:22). No doubt the Antichrist will also deny that Jesus suffered and died on the Cross for our sins, as this, just as believing that Jesus is the Christ and the Son of God (John 20:31, John 3:36), is one of the core beliefs of the Gospel by which people become saved (1 Corinthians 15:1-4).

So what the Antichrist could do is keep the idea of a good Jesus, but strip it of everything by which Jesus saves people from hell. And this would not require that the Antichrist deny Jesus' Second Coming. Indeed, the Antichrist and his False Prophet (of Revelation 19:20) could even try to employ to their own ends the Biblical prophecy of Jesus' Second Coming, as well as the Muslim prophecy which says that the miracle-working prophet Jesus will return bodily from heaven in the last days in order to bring the whole earth into the worship of the true God. For the False Prophet could claim that he is Jesus returned (via "reincarnation"). And he could perform amazing miracles (Revelation 13:13) as purported proof of his claim (cf. John 3:2). This is one reason why it is important to know when and how the real Jesus' Second Coming will occur (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, Zechariah 14:3-21).

Once the False Prophet by his amazing miracles has brought the world under his spell (Revelation 13:13-18, Revelation 19:20), including many Muslims and Christians who may not care much for scriptural dogma, but could go wild over his signs and wonders, he could begin to (in his words) "restore to the world the real message which was spoken by me (Jesus) at my first coming, and by the great prophet Mohammed, but which message became corrupted by power-hungry men when they copied and changed the early manuscripts of the Bible and the Koran". He could then gradually initiate the world into the Antichrist's Gnostic Luciferianism (1 John 4:3, Revelation 13:4-6), also called Satanism, a religion which could have existed since ancient times in some "mystery" cults, and which still exists today in the highest degree of initiation of a worldwide secret society. The False Prophet could present his miraculously calling fire down from heaven (Revelation 13:13) as purported proof that Lucifer (the dragon, Satan) and the Antichrist are the true God (Revelation 13:4-8, Revelation 12:9), in an inversion of how back in Old Testament times the prophet Elijah miraculously called fire down from heaven in order to prove that YHWH is the true God (1 Kings 18:37-39).

The person whom the Antichrist will revile is YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36), whom many people mistakenly think of as being (in their words) "the God of only the Old Testament, that cruel and hateful God who commanded people to commit genocide and to kill babies (1 Samuel 15:3), whereas Jesus came and preached love for everyone (Matthew 5:44)". The truth is that Jesus Christ confirmed that the God of the Old Testament, YHWH (Deuteronomy 6:4-5, Leviticus 19:18), is the same as the God of the New Testament (Mark 12:29-31), and that the Old Testament is true (Matthew 5:17-18, Luke 24:44-48). Jesus suffered and died for our sins in fulfillment of Old Testament prophecy from YHWH (Isaiah 53; 1 Peter 2:24). And He rose from the dead in fulfillment of Old Testament prophecy from YHWH (e.g. Psalms 16:10, Acts 2:31). Jesus died to establish the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28), which YHWH had foretold in the Old Testament (Jeremiah 31:31-34). And Jesus died to bring about the defeat of Satan (Hebrews 2:14), which YHWH had foretold from even the first book of the Old Testament (Genesis 3:15).

Nonetheless, building on many people's misconceptions of YHWH as being (in their words) "the cruel God of the Old Testament", no doubt one of the future Antichrist's chief blasphemies against YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36) will be that YHWH is an evil god. This is one of the ancient blasphemies of Gnosticism, another being the antichrist lie that Christ is not in the flesh (2 John 1:7). The world will be deceived into completely rejecting YHWH, and worshipping Satan and the Antichrist instead (Revelation 13:4-8, Revelation 12:9). But Satan might not be worshipped as "Satan", which almost everyone sees as a bad name (it means "Adversary"), but as "Lucifer" (Isaiah 14:12), which means "the morning star". The Antichrist could falsely say that it is YHWH who is the true "Satan", the true "Adversary" of mankind. And the Antichrist could claim that even 2 Samuel 24:1 and 1 Chronicles 21:1 together prove this by showing that it was the single entity of YHWH/Satan who moved King David to number Israel. Of course, the truth is that 2 Samuel 24:1 and 1 Chronicles 21:1 together simply mean that YHWH used Satan to move David. YHWH elsewhere rebuked Satan (Zechariah 3:2), so they are in no way the same person.

Because the Antichrist and his False Prophet (possibly masquerading as Jesus) will deny that Jesus is the Christ (1 John 2:22), and will deny that Christ is in the flesh (1 John 4:3), and because they will bring the unsaved world into the worship of Lucifer (Satan, the dragon) instead (Revelation 13:4, Revelation 12:9), they could falsely say that (the non-mortal flesh) Lucifer is the Christ, that the new name of Christ (Revelation 3:12c) is "Lucifer Christ". For just as "Lucifer" means "the morning star", so Christ is the morning star (Revelation 22:16b). Also, Christ identified himself with the serpent (John 3:14), and Lucifer is the serpent (Revelation 12:9). Also, Christ said: "Ye are gods" (John 10:34), and it was the serpent who said: "ye shall be as gods" (Genesis 3:5).

But the truth is that Lucifer fell from his office of morning star (Isaiah 14:12), and became Satan (cf. Luke 10:18). Jesus Christ has taken over the office of morning star (Revelation 22:16). And Jesus Christ identified Himself only with the brass serpent on the pole in Numbers 21:8-9 (John 3:14), which typified Jesus Christ's crucifixion for our sins (John 19:16, Matthew 26:28). And in John 10:34, Jesus Christ (John 20:31) was quoting YHWH in Psalms 82:6-7, which shows that even though humans have knowledge of good and evil as gods do (Genesis 3:22), they will still die like humans (Psalms 82:7), contradicting the serpent's lie (Genesis 3:4). Nonetheless, the Antichrist could falsely say that Lucifer is the Christ and the true and beneficent God of mankind, and that the False Prophet is the miracle-working prophet Jesus (cf. John 3:2, Acts 3:22-24) returned to point the world to the true Christ/God. The Antichrist could falsely say that he (the Antichrist) is the human/divine "Son" of Lucifer, who must be worshipped as God along with Lucifer (Revelation 13:4,8). This would be similar to how Biblical Christians rightly worship the human/divine Jesus Christ (John 1:1,14) as YHWH God (the Son) along with YHWH God the Father (John 20:28, Hebrews 1:8).

Near the end of the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, unclean spirits like frogs will come out of the mouths of Lucifer, the Antichrist, and the False Prophet (Revelation 16:13). And these unclean spirits like frogs will go forth and perform amazing miracles to convince the world's armies to gather together at Armageddon (Har Megiddo: Mount Megiddo in northern Israel) (Revelation 16:16) in an attempt to fight and defeat YHWH Himself (Revelation 16:14, Revelation 19:19). After gathering together at Armageddon, the armies will travel south and pillage Jerusalem, right before the real Jesus (who is YHWH: John 10:30) returns from heaven and defeats them completely (Zechariah 14:2-21, Revelation 19:20 to 20:3).

So the Second Coming of Jesus Christ will be a total shock to the world. The world will have been expecting to wage war against some evil Old Testament god named "YHWH" with the help of the good Jesus (played by the False Prophet), and with the help of the true and beneficent Christ/God (played by Lucifer), and with the help of the good Son of God (played by the Antichrist), and with the help of the good angels of God (played by the fallen angels of Lucifer: Revelation 12:9). But then, instead of some evil god appearing in the sky, the world could see the glorious sign of the Cross (cf. Matthew 24:30), the symbol of the good YHWH suffering and dying for our sins (Acts 20:28b). And then the world will see the glorious appearance of the real Jesus sitting on a white horse descending from the sky (Revelation 19:11-21).

When the people of the world realize at that moment how thoroughly they have been duped, and see in the sky the huge angelic armies (2 Thessalonians 1:7, Matthew 25:31) of the true Jesus, the true Christ, the true Son of God, and the good YHWH, who are all the one and the same Jesus Christ of Nazareth, then they could utterly mourn and wail for themselves (Matthew 24:30, Revelation 1:7), knowing in their spirits that Jesus has returned in wrath to destroy most of them for their unrepentant sins (2 Thessalonians 1:8-9, Revelation 19:15-21).