The unforgivable sin ¶ Matthew 12:31-32 ¶ Mark 3:28-30 ¶ Hebrews 6:4-6 ¶ 1 Timothy 1:13

black.hawk

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God will only forgive the ignorant who have converted to Christianity as Paul did (1 Timothy 1:13); but "double jeopardy" does not allow converts to have a second chance if they have broken (or rejected) the Covenant of Salvation (Hebrews 6:4-6).

The unforgivable sin has been committed by breaking (or rejecting) the Covenant of Salvation, which makes it impossible for a convert to be saved.

Double jeopardy means that the Covenant cannot be renewed again (nor reinstated) once it has been broken (or rejected) by the individuals concerned.

Discuss.
 
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Tolworth John

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Do we have the right to say who God will not forgive or what God will not forgive.

Think for a moment of what Jesus went through to save us.
Is he really so wishy washy that what someone says or thinks in a temper will loose them salvation, or that a period of genuine confussion or an intellectual problem will cost them eternity.

Can a Christian reject Jesus?
 
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Greg J.

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The unforgivable sin has been committed by breaking (or rejecting) the Covenant of Salvation, which makes it impossible for a convert to be saved.
...
There are incorrect implication in your post. One must also remember that all who call upon the name of the Lord genuinely (i.e., in humility, from their heart) will be saved.

The only thing that is unforgivable that is consistent with all of Scripture is rejecting God to the point that one's heart is so hard that he or she will never again accept God as their God (a form of rejecting the Truth, i.e., choosing to live in darkness), but the choice would still be available.

But the LORD hardened Pharaoh’s heart and he would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the LORD had said to Moses. (Exodus 9:12, 1984 NIV)

God created the universe in his image and it operates in his image without God having to make moral judgments for it to work the way it does. If someone intentionally drops a bowling ball on your foot, we don't say God intentionally chose to keep gravity working to hurt you—it just isn't God's fault, even though he is the one responsible for gravity working. From our (temporal) perspective God did not harden Pharoah's heart, Pharaoh hardened his own heart by repeatedly rejecting God. (Pharaoh kept choosing to repeatedly drop bowling balls on his own feet.) However, from an outside-of-time viewpoint (which only God can use in logical chains of reasoning), God chose everything that would happen all throughout time.

In Pharaoh's case, God is in his role as the just operator of the universe (spiritual universe in this instance). That is to say, God did not want Pharaoh to go down the path he did (1 Timothy 2:3-4), but Pharaoh repeatedly, intentionally rejected God and received the natural consequences of it.
 
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black.hawk

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Do you advocate for yourself, or on behalf of many others who're likely to be just as guilty as you?

Do we have the right to say who God will not forgive or what God will not forgive.
But HOW should one DEFINE the "Right to say something"?

WHAT exactly do you MEAN by the "Right to say something"?

The "Right to say something" are no more than words (Without any practical measures), or does it entail practical measures and the State's concerted action against the Son of God?

Since, on the one hand, I think you have the right to petition God (or to ask him politely, as Abraham did prior to the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah) on this matter, but you have no right to tell him what to do (Since God alone is Sovereign, ¶ Romans 9:21), nor to take action against his Son Jesus; in such a way as to obstruct (Since any obstruction would make you Antichrist, and God's Enemy on the side of Satan in this War of Armageddon) God's plan of Salvation, which is the Resurrection of Christ = John 11:25-26 and Romans 10:9.

However, only God (or Jesus) can tell you WHAT the Resurrection IS, and what this entails; since God alone is Creator who is Sovereign, and his interpretation of Scripture is "infallible" - Since the one with the stick hand is presumed to be "infallible" in terms of HOW the Constitution and Statutes should be interpreted in all landmark rulings by the Supreme Court - But nobody has the "right" nor any power to overrule the SC, whether or not you agree with its Verdict.

Such is the Nature of Infallibility that only the one with the stick hand can be presumed to be "infallible" - Since God is Sovereign he would ultimately have the final say as concerning HOW Scripture should be "interpreted"; and WHAT actions need to be taken in regards to the actual "meaning" of Hebrews 6:4-6.

Now, in response to your question, Romans 1:20 is advice to all Christians to look for evidence of God and his works in the creation itself, which means to look beyond the immediate confines of Scripture.

Accordingly, the works of Man (Which are part of God's creation) and Medieval art have often depicted the Resurrection by using the Flag of St. George - Which is the Holy Order of Teutonic Knights in Germania.

Therefore, the Flag is BOTH definitive and prescriptive of WHAT the Resurrection IS, which implies that all the constituent countries of the British Isles would befit the same broadly-defined ethnicity, which is represented by this flag - Since those tribes are mostly descended from the indigenous peoples of Germany and N. Europe = Wasps.

However, should you try to obstruct the Resurrection of Christ - BOTH a part of God's plan, AND intrinsic to the Covenant of Salvation - then no one else can be resurrected, either (John 11:25-26), and all of you would perish on the day of Judgement.

At least, no one from this country can be saved or resurrected, since the entire country would be Judged by Pharaoh's obstinate refusal to cooperate with God's plan of Salvation - Namely, the Resurrection of Christ in this example.

The symbolic position of "Pharaoh" have been ascribed to all the political leaders of this Realm who are jointly responsible for whatever actions they have taken to obstruct God's plan, which is the Resurrection of Christ.

Since your salvation - And that of your countrymen - is contingent on the Resurrection of Christ, which is according to John 11:25-26.

The flip side of the coin is also implied, so that God would annihilate all those who are ignorant (and remain ignorant), and those who have broken the new covenant.

But of course, this says nothing about the other members of the G8, nor the rest of the world.

Think for a moment of what Jesus went through to save us.
Is he really so wishy washy that what someone says or thinks in a temper will loose them salvation, or that a period of genuine confussion or an intellectual problem will cost them eternity.
No, it would be wishy washy if God pretended that Hebrews 6:4 didn't matter at all; or to pretend such a hard and fast rule could somehow be set aside (for anybody at all) is wishy washy.

To say or think something in a temper would not be considered a mortal sin, but such a temper didn't need to be directed against the Covenant of Christ, which is holy and sacrosanct - And there can be no excuse for breaking the Covenant of Salvation. Hebrews 6:4-6

So, confronted by 2 candidates who have similar qualifications, an employer would most likely go for the one who doesn't have a criminal record.

This is the same with God, who would most likely choose (or save) those who haven't yet offended (Over those who have momentarily rejected the Covenant).

This is why the Bible says that the meek shall inherit the earth - Which doesn't mean that there won't be any VIP's at all in the Kingdom of heaven, but based on the law of probability those celebrities would be vastly outnumbered by huge swaths of insignificant people who haven't yet taken sides in this conflict.

Can a Christian reject Jesus?
It all depends on what you mean by "Christian".

However, Matthew 7:21-23 and 25:41 is definitive answer to your question, since God had foreknowledge that Jesus would disown all the False prophets and Faux Christians on the day of Judgement - Despite their remonstrations, or claim to be "Christian" - Since they have broken (or rejected) the Covenant of Christ, and so called "Christians" are invariably condemned because they have broken the Covenant of Salvation (i.e. Hebrews 6:4-6 and 10:26-29).
 
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black.hawk

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There are incorrect implication in your post. One must also remember that all who call upon the name of the Lord genuinely (i.e., in humility, from their heart) will be saved.

The only thing that is unforgivable that is consistent with all of Scripture is rejecting God to the point that one's heart is so hard that he or she will never again accept God as their God (a form of rejecting the Truth, i.e., choosing to live in darkness), but the choice would still be available.

But the LORD hardened Pharaoh’s heart and he would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the LORD had said to Moses. (Exodus 9:12, 1984 NIV)

God created the universe in his image and it operates in his image without God having to make moral judgments for it to work the way it does. If someone intentionally drops a bowling ball on your foot, we don't say God intentionally chose to keep gravity working to hurt you—it just isn't God's fault, even though he is the one responsible for gravity working. From our (temporal) perspective God did not harden Pharoah's heart, Pharaoh hardened his own heart by repeatedly rejecting God. (Pharaoh kept choosing to repeatedly drop bowling balls on his own feet.) However, from an outside-of-time viewpoint (which only God can use in logical chains of reasoning), God chose everything that would happen all throughout time.

In Pharaoh's case, God is in his role as the just operator of the universe (spiritual universe in this instance). That is to say, God did not want Pharaoh to go down the path he did (1 Timothy 2:3-4), but Pharaoh repeatedly, intentionally rejected God and received the natural consequences of it.
There are no "right" or "wrong" interpretations as far as the Scripture goes.

However, I know we both happen to disagree on the interpretation of certain Scripture, but the one with the stick hand would always have the final say as regarding HOW the Scripture should be interpreted, and HOW (or WHO) the Living and Dead should be divided on the day of Judgement. ¶ Matthew 25:33

God has the final say as regarding the actual "meaning" of Scripture, since no one can overrule his "interpretation" of the same. ¶ Isaiah 45:9 ¶ Romans 9:21
 
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Greg J.

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There are no "right" or "wrong" interpretations as far as the Scripture goes.
This is sophistry and is incorrect.
However, I know we both happen to disagree on the interpretation of certain Scripture, but the one with the stick hand would always have the final say as regarding HOW the Scripture should be interpreted, and HOW (or WHO) the Living and Dead should be divided on the day of Judgement. ¶ Matthew 25:33
On the day of Judgment, it isn't going to matter how you have interpreted Scripture. What will matter is what is in your heart and what you have said and done.
God has the final say as regarding the actual "meaning" of Scripture, since no one can overrule his "interpretation" of the same. ¶ Isaiah 45:9 ¶ Romans 9:21
God having final say is an idea that has never been manifest in such a way as to enable the communication of truth from one person to another.
 
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black.hawk

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This is sophistry and is incorrect.
No, it's not sophistry; but every verse in the Bible should be interpreted in its proper context and within reasonable limits.

Just as a Judge is required to follow strict guidelines as regarding the interpretation of Statutes, God (or Christ) would always choose the best possible interpretation of any verse within reasonable limits, but never out context.

On the day of Judgment, it isn't going to matter how you have interpreted Scripture. What will matter is what is in your heart and what you have said and done.
Yet, God (or Christ) will be exempt from the Great Judgement - As he alone will be your Judge, and the Judge of the entire world.

God having final say is an idea that has never been manifest in such a way as to enable the communication of truth from one person to another.
Christ being the only exception to what you have said:

1 Timothy 2:5 - 5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus,

But your denial of the Son of God will have no impact whatsoever to change your ultimate end on the day of Judgement:

1 John 2:22 - Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son.

Since I have already said that you are not important enough to be reprieved from the Supreme penalty - Since Philip Mountbatten is my father, but you are not strategically important to God to set aside the Supreme penalty as defined by Hebrews 6:4-6, Revelation 20:15, and Revelation 21:8:

"But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all LIARS shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

To "lie" means to deliberately misquote the Bible, or to twist the meaning of Scripture for any evil purpose which was never intended by God.

Such is the fate of all those who lie about God's word, which is the Holy Bible.
 
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black.hawk

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This is sophistry and is incorrect.
No, it's not sophistry; but every verse in the Bible should be interpreted in its proper context and within reasonable limits.

Just as a Judge is required to follow strict guidelines as regarding the interpretation of Statutes, God (or Christ) would always choose the best possible interpretation of any verse within reasonable limits, but never out context.

On the day of Judgment, it isn't going to matter how you have interpreted Scripture. What will matter is what is in your heart and what you have said and done.
Yet, God (or Christ) will be exempt from the Great Judgement - As he alone will be your Judge, and the Judge of the entire world.

God having final say is an idea that has never been manifest in such a way as to enable the communication of truth from one person to another.
Christ being the only exception to what you have said:

1 Timothy 2:5 - 5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus,

But your denial of the Son of God will have no impact whatsoever to change your ultimate end on the day of Judgement:

1 John 2:22 - Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son.

Since I have already said that you are not important enough to be reprieved from the Supreme penalty - Since Philip Mountbatten is my father, but you are not strategically important to God to set aside the Supreme penalty as defined by Hebrews 6:4-6, Revelation 20:15, and Revelation 21:8:

"But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all LIARS shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

To "lie" means to deliberately misquote the Bible, or to twist the meaning of Scripture for any evil purpose which was never intended by God.

Such is the fate of all those who lie about God's word, which is the Holy Bible.
 
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Tolworth John

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But HOW should one DEFINE the "Right to say something"?

I did not say that. I question whether we know God's will, so as to be able to say that he will not forgive that Christians sin.
Anymore than we can look at a person and say they are or are not a Christian.

Look again at the price paid to save us and ask yourself. Is God going to throw that away because a person gives in to temptation and sins again.

Don't you realise we are all sinners but that Christians are sinners saved by grace.
 
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DeaconDean

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What is funny, is how everybody uses Heb. 6:4-6 to beat others over the head.

A person speaks of taking scripture "in context", but yet pulls Hebrews 6 out of context for justifying their beliefs.

Arthur W. Pink, wrote "An Exposition of Hebrews".

It is from his Introduction, I make my point.

"1. Its Addressees.

In our English Bibles we find the words "The Epistle of Paul the Apostle to the Hebrews" as the address. Perhaps some of our readers are not aware that the titles found at the head of the different books of the Bible are not Divinely inspired, and therefore are not accounted canonical as are the contents. No doubt these titles were originated by the early scribes, when making copies of the original manuscripts—manuscripts, all traces of which have long since disappeared. In some instances these titles are unsatisfactory; in a few, grossly erroneous. As an example of the latter, we may refer to the final book of Scripture. Here the title is "The Revelation of St. John the Divine," whereas the opening sentence of the book itself designates it "The Revelation of Jesus Christ!"

Ignoring then the man-made title at the head of our Epistle, we are at once struck by the absence of any Divinely-given one in the opening verses. Nevertheless, its first sentence enables us to identify at once those to whom the Epistle was originally sent: see Hebrews 1:1, 2. They to whom God spake through the prophets were the children of Israel, and it was also unto them He had spoken through His Son. In Hebrews 3:1, we find a word which, however, narrows the circle to which this Epistle was first sent. It was not the Jewish nation at large which was addressed, but the "holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling" among them. Clear confirmation of this is supplied in the Epistles of Peter. His first was addressed, locally, to "the elect sojourners of the Dispersion (Heb. 1:1—Gk., "eklektois parepidenois diasporas"). His second Epistle (see Hebrews 3:1) was addressed, locally and immediately, to the same company. Now in 2 Peter 3:15 the apostle makes specific reference to "our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you." Thus all doubt is removed as to whom our Epistle was first sent.

The Epistle itself contains further details which serve to identify the addressees. That it was written to saints who were by no means young in the faith is clear from Hebrews 5:12. That it was sent to those who had suffered severe persecutions (cf. Acts 8:1) is plain from what we read in Hebrews 10:32. That it was addressed to a Christian community of considerable size is evident from Hebrews 13:24. From this last reference we are inclined to conclude that this Epistle was first delivered to the church in Jerusalem (Acts 11:22), or to the churches in Judea (Acts 9:31), copies of which would be made and forwarded to Jewish Christians in foreign lands. Thus, our Epistle was first addressed to those descendants of Abraham who, by grace, had believed on their Savior-Messiah.

2. Its Purpose.

This, in a word, was to instruct Jewish believers that Judaism had been superceded by Christianity. It must be borne in mind that a very considerable proportion of the earliest converts to Christ were Jews by natural birth, who continued to labor under Jewish prejudices. In his early Epistles the apostle had touched several times on this point, and sought to wean them from an undue and now untimely attachment to the Mosaic institutions. But only in this Epistle does he deal fully and systematically with the subject.

It is difficult for us to appreciate the position, at the time this Epistle was written, of those in Israel who had believed on the Lord Jesus. Unlike the Gentiles, who, for long centuries past, had lost all knowledge of the true God, and, in consequence, worshipped idols, the Jews had a Divine religion, and a Divinely-appointed place of worship. To be called upon to forsake these, which had been venerated by their fathers for over a thousand years, was to make a big demand upon them. It was natural that even those among them who had savingly believed on Christ should want to retain the forms and ceremonies amid which they had been brought up; the more so, seeing that the Temple still stood and the Levitical priesthood still functioned. An endeavor had been made to link Christianity on to Judaism, and as Acts 21:20 tells us there were many thousands of the early Jewish Christians who were "zealous of the law"—as the next verses clearly show, the ceremonial law.

"Instead of perceiving that under the new economy of things, there was neither Jew nor Gentile, but, that, without reference to external distinctions, all believers in Christ Jesus were now to live together in the closest bonds of spiritual attachment in holy society, they dreamed of the Gentiles being admitted to the participation of the Jewish Church through means of the Messiah, and, that its external economy was to remain unaltered to the end of the world" (Dr. J. Brown).

In addition to their natural prejudices, the temporal circumstances of the believing Jews became increasingly discouraging, yea, presented a sore temptation for them to abandon the profession of Christianity. Following the persecution spoken of in Acts 8:1, that eminent scholar, Adolph Saphir—himself a converted Jew—tells us: "Then arose another persecution of the believers, especially directed against the apostle Paul. Festus died about the year 63, and under the high priest Ananias, who favored the Sadducees, the Christian Hebrews were persecuted as transgressors of the law. Some of them were stoned to death; and though this extreme punishment could not be frequently inflicted by the Sanhedrim, they were able to subject their brethren to sufferings and reproaches which they felt keenly. It was a small thing that they confiscated their goods; but they banished them from the holy places. Hitherto they had enjoyed the privileges of devout Israelites: they could take part in the beautiful and God-appointed services of the sanctuary; but now they were treated as unclean and apostates. Unless they gave up faith in Jesus, and forsook the assembling of themselves together, they were not allowed to enter the Temple, they were banished from the altar, the sacrifice, the high priest, the house of Jehovah.

3. Its Theme.

This is, the super-abounding excellence of Christianity over Judaism. The sum and substance, the center and circumference, the light and life of Christianity, is Christ. Therefore, the method followed by the Holy Spirit in this Epistle, in developing its dominant theme, is to show the immeasurable superiority of Christ over all that had gone before. One by one the various objects in which the Jews boasted are taken up, and in the presence of the superlative glory of the Son of God they pale into utter insignificance. We are shown First, His superiority over the prophets, Hebrews 1:1-3. Second, His superiority over angels in Hebrews 1:4 to Hebrews 2:18. Third, His superiority over Moses in Hebrews 3:1-19. Fourth, His superiority over Joshua, Hebrews 4:1-13. Fifth, His superiority over Aaron in Hebrews 5:14 to 7:18. Sixth, His superiority over the whole ritual of Judaism, which is developed by showing the surpassing excellency of the new covenant over the old, in Hebrews 7:19 to Hebrews 10:39. Seventh, His superiority over each and all of the Old Testament saints, in Hebrews 11:1 to Hebrews 12:3. In the Lord Jesus, Christians have the substance and reality, of which Judaism contained but the shadows and figures."

An Exposition of Hebrews, Arthur W. Pink, Introduction

You must understand that when this epistle was written, Christians, both Gentile and Jew were under heavy persecution by Rome, most especially by Emperor Nero. And, not only Rome, but by Jews themselves.

Coming out as a "follower of Christ" meant to be ostracized from Jewish society. What people see is a warning of "apostasy" is in reality under stiff and sever persecution by both Roman and Jewish people, to turn back to "ritual Judaism", and all that that entails, is what that chapter is about.

So, from Hebrews 6, we also see:

"If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame." -Heb. 6:6 (KJV)

Pink comments:

"If they shall fall away". The Greek word here is very strong and emphatic, even stronger than the one used in Matthew 7:27, where it is said of the house built on the sand, "and great was the fall thereof". It is a complete falling away, a total abandonment of Christianity which is here in view. It is a wilful turning of the back on God’s revealed truth, an utter repudiation of the Gospel. It is making "shipwreck of the faith" (1 Tim. 1:19). This terrible sin is not committed by a mere nominal professor, for he has nothing really to fall away from, save an empty name. The class here described are such as had had their minds enlightened, their consciences stirred, their affections moved to a considerable degree, and yet who were never brought from death unto life. Nor is it backsliding Christians who are in view. It is not simply "fall into sin", this or that sin. The greatest "sin" which a regenerated man can possibly commit is the personal denial of Christ: Peter was guilty of this, yet was he "renewed again unto repentance". It is the total renunciation of all the distinguishing truths and principles of Christianity, and this not secretly, but openly, which constitutes apostasy.

"If they shall fall away". "This is scarcely a fair translation. It has been said that the apostle did not here assert that such persons did or do ‘fall away’; but that if they did—a supposition which, however, could never be realized—then the consequence would be they could not be ‘renewed again unto repentance’. The words literally rendered are, ‘And have fallen away’, or, ‘yet have fallen’. The apostle obviously intimates that such persons might, and that such persons did, ‘fall away’. By ‘falling away’, we are plainly to understand what is commonly called apostasy. This does not consist in an occasional falling into actual sin, however gross and aggravated; nor in the renunciation of some of the principles of Christianity, even though those should be of considerable importance; but in an open, total, determined renunciation of all the constituent principles of Christianity, and a return to a false religion, such as that of unbelieving Jews or heathens, or to open infidelity and open godlessness" (Dr. J. Brown).

"It is impossible . . . if they fall away, to renew them again unto repentance". Four questions here call for answer. What is meant by "renewed unto repentance"? What is signified by "renewed again unto repentance"? Why is such an experience "impossible"? To whom is this "impossible"? Repentance signifies a change of mind: Matthew 21:29, Romans 11:29 establish this. It is more than a mental act, the conscience also being active, leading to contrition and self-condemnation (Job 42:6). In the unregenerate, it is simply the workings of nature; in the children of God it is wrought by the Holy Spirit. The latter is evangelical, being one of the things which "accompany salvation". The former is not so, being the "sorrow of the world", which "worketh death" (2 Cor. 7:10). This kind of "repentance" or remorse receives most solemn exemplification in the case of Judas: Matthew 27:3, 5. Such was the repentance of these apostates. The Greek verb for "renew" here occurs nowhere else in the New Testament. Probably "restore" had been better, for the same word is used in the Sept., for a Hebrews verb meaning to renew in the sense of restore: Psalm 103:5; 104:30; Lamentations 5:21. Josephus applies it to the renovation of the Temple!

But what is meant by "renewing unto repentance"? "To be ‘renewed’ is a figurative expression for denoting a change, a great change, and a change for the better. To be ‘renewed’ so as to change a person’s mind is expressive of an important and advantageous alteration of opinion, and character and service. And such an alteration the persons referred to had undergone at a former period. They were once in a state of ignorance respecting the doctrines and evidences of Christianity, and they had been ‘enlightened’. They had once known not of the excellency and beauty of Christian truth, and they had been made to ‘taste of the heavenly gift’. They once misunderstood the prophecies respecting the Messiah, and were unaware of their fulfillment, and, of course, were strangers to that energetic influence which the New Testament revelation puts forth; and they had been made to see that that ‘good word’ was fulfilled, and had been made partakers of the external privileges and been subjected to the peculiar energies of the new order of things. Their view, and feelings, and circumstances, were materially changed. How great the difference between an ignorant, bigoted Jew, and the person described in the preceding passage! He had become as it were a different man. He had not, indeed, become, in the sense of the apostle, a ‘new creature’, His mind had not been so changed as unfeignedly to believe ‘the truth as it is in Jesus’; but still, a great and so far as it went, a thorough change had taken place" (Dr. J. Brown).

Now it is impossible to "renew again unto repentance" those who have totally abandoned the Christian revelation. Some things are "impossible" with respect unto the nature of God, as that He cannot lie, or pardon sin without satisfaction to His justice. Other things which are possible to God’s nature are rendered "impossible" by His decrees or purpose: see 1 Samuel 15:28, 29. Still other things are "possible" or "impossible" with respect to the rule or order of all things God has appointed. For example, there cannot be faith apart from hearing the Word (Rom. 10:13-17). "When in things of duty God hath neither expressed command thereon, nor appointed means for the performance of them, they are to be looked upon then as impossible [as, for instance, there is no salvation apart from repentance, Luke 13:3. (A.W.P.)]; and then, with respect unto us, they are so absolutely, and so to be esteemed. And this is the ‘impossibility’ here principally intended. It is a thing that God hath neither commanded us to endeavor, nor appointed means to attain it, nor promise to assist us in it. It is therefore that which we have no reason to look after, attempt, or expect, as being not possible by any law, rule, or constitution of God.

"The apostle instructs us no further in the nature of future events but as our own duty is concerned in them. It is not for us either to look or hope, or pray for, or endeavor the restoration of such persons unto repentance. God gives a law unto us in these things, not unto Himself. It may be possible with God, for aught we know, if there be not a contradiction in it unto any of the holy properties of His nature; only He will not have us to expect any such thing from Him, nor hath He appointed any means for us to endeavor it. What He shall do we ought trustfully to accept; but our own duty toward such persons is absolutely at an end. And indeed, they put themselves wholly out of our reach" (Dr. John Owen).

It needs to be carefully observed that in the whole of this passage from Hebrews 5:11 onwards the apostle is speaking of his own ministry. In God’s hands, His servants are instruments by which He works and through whom He accomplishes His evangelical purpose. Thus Paul could properly say "I have begotten you through the gospel" (1 Cor. 4:15). And again, "My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you" (Gal. 4:19). So the servants of God had, through the preaching of the Gospel, "renewed unto repentance" those spoken of in Hebrews 6:4. But they had apostatised; they had totally repudiated the Gospel. It was therefore "impossible" for the servants of God to "renew them again unto repentance", for the all-sufficient reason that they had no other message to proclaim to them. They had no other Gospel in reserve, no further motives to present. Christ crucified had been set before them. Him they now denounced as an Imposter. There was "none other name" whereby they could be saved. Their public renunciation of Christ rendered their case hopeless so far as God’s servants were concerned. "Let them alone" (Matthew 15:19) was now their orders: compare Jude 22. Whether or not it was possible for God, consistently with His holiness, to shame them, our passage does not decide.

"Seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh" (verse 6). This is brought in to show the aggravation of their awful crime and the impossibility of their being renewed again unto repentance. By renouncing their Christian profession they declared Christ to be an Imposter. Thus they were irreclaimable. To attempt any further reasoning with them, would only be casting pearls before swine. With this verse should be carefully compared the parallel passage in Hebrews 10:26-29. These apostates had "received the knowledge of the truth", though not a saving knowledge of it. Afterward they sinned "wilfully": there was a deliberate and open disavowal of the truth. The nature of their particular sin is termed a "treading under foot the Son of God (something which no real Christian ever does) and counting (esteeming) the blood of the covenant an unholy thing", that is, looking upon the One who hung on the Cross as a common malefactor. For such there "remaineth no more sacrifice for sins". Their case is hopeless so far as man is concerned; and the writer believes, such are abandoned by God also.

"Seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put Him to an open shame". "They thus identify themselves with His crucifiers—they entertained and avowed sentiments which were He on earth and in their power, would induce them to crucify Him. They exposed Him to infamy, made a public example of Him. They did more to dishonor Jesus Christ than His murderers did. They never professed to acknowledge His divine mission; but these apostates had made such a profession—they had made a kind of trial of Christianity, and, after trial, had rejected it" (Dr. J. Brown).

Such a warning was needed and well calculated to stir up the slothful Hebrews. Under the Old Testament economy, by means of types and prophecies, they had obtained glimmerings of truth as to Christ, called "the word of the beginning of Christ". Under those shadows and glimmerings they had been reared, not knowing their full import till they had been blessed with the full light of the Gospel, here called "perfection". The danger to which they were exposed was that of receding from the ground where Christianity placed them, and relaxing to Judaism. To do so meant to re-enter that House which Christ had left "desolate" (Matthew 23:38), and would be to join forces with His murderers, and thus "crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh", and by their apostasy "put Him to an open (public) shame". We may add that the Greek word here for "crucify" is a stronger one than is generally used: it means to "crucify up". Attention is thus directed to the erection of the cross on which the Savior was held up to public scorn.

Taking the passage as a whole, it needs to be remembered that all who had professed to receive the Gospel were not born of God: the parable of the Sower shows that. Intelligence might be informed, conscience searched, natural affections stirred, and yet there be "no root" in them. All is not gold that glitters. There has always been a "mixt multitude" (Ex. 12:38) who accompany the people of God. Moreover, there is in the real Christian the old heart, which is "deceitful above all things and desperately wicked", and therefore is he in constant need of faithful warning. Such, God has given in every dispensation: Genesis 2:17; Leviticus 26:15, 16; Matthew 3:8; Romans 11:21; 1 Corinthians 10:12.

Finally, let it be said that while Scripture speaks plainly and positively of the perseverance of the saints, yet it is a perseverance of saints, not unregenerate professors. Divine preservation is not only in a safe state, but also in a holy course of disposition and conduct. We are "kept by the power of God through faith". We are kept by the Spirit working in us a spirit of entire dependency, renouncing our own wisdom and strength. The only place from which we cannot fall is one down in the dust. It is there the Lord brings His own people, weaning them from all confidence in the flesh, and giving them to experience that it is when they are weak they are strong. Such, and such only, are saved and safe forever."

An Exposition of Hebrews, Arthur W. Pink, Chapter 24. Apostasy

And another passage they want to use is Hebrews 10:26.

"For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,"

The author, whoever it was, went to great lengths to show and prove the superiority of Christ over all things Jewish.

You could not turn away from Christ, sin, and run back to the temple to sacrifice, because at this time, the temple was still standing, you could not go back and sacrifice for sin, because Christ's sacrifice ended all sacrificing.

So, I'm sorry, but I disagree with the assessment of Hebrews presented above by the OP.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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DeaconDean

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"Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come." -Mt. 12:31-32 (KJV)

John Gill comments saying:

"Wherefore I say unto you
This shows, that what follows is occasioned by what the Pharisees had said, concerning the miracles of Christ; imputing them to diabolical influence and assistance, when they were done by the Spirit of God, of which they themselves were conscious;

all manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men:
not unto all men, for there are some, who, as they are never truly convinced of sin, and brought to repentance for it, so they never have the remission of it; but to such to whom God of his free grace has promised, and for whom he has provided this blessing, in the covenant of his grace; for whom the blood of Christ was shed, for the remission of their sins; and who, by the Spirit of God, are made sensible of them, and have repentance unto life given them, and faith in Christ, by which they receive the forgiveness of them: the sense is, that all kind of sin, whether committed more immediately against God, or man, the first or second table of the law, or against any of the divine precepts; be they sins small or great, secret or open, sins of heart, lip, or life, or attended with whatsoever aggravating circumstances; and all kind of blasphemy, or evil speaking of men, or of angels, or of the name of God, but what is hereafter excepted, there is forgiveness of in the grace of God, through the blood of Christ, even for all sorts of men and sinners whatever. The Jews have a saying, that God pardons all sins,

``(hmzh Nm Uwx) , "except lasciviousness".''


But this is not excepted by Christ, only what follows,

but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost, shall not be forgiven unto
men:
by which is meant, not every ignorant denial of, and opposition to his deity and personality; nor all resistance of him in the external ministry of the word; nor every sin that is knowingly and wilfully committed; but it is a despiteful usage of the Spirit of grace, an opposing, contradicting, and denying the operations wrought, or doctrines revealed by him, against a man's own light and conscience, out of wilful and obstinate malice, on purpose to lessen the glory of God, and gratify his own lusts: such was the sin of the Scribes and Pharisees; who, though they knew the miracles of Christ were wrought by the Spirit of God, yet maliciously and obstinately imputed them to the devil, with a view to obscure the glory of Christ, and indulge their own wicked passions and resentments against him; which sin was unpardonable at that present time, as well as under that dispensation then to come, when the Spirit of God was poured down in a more plenteous manner."

Source

"And whosoever speaketh a word against the son of man
By whom is meant, not any man, as Grotius thought, but the Lord Jesus Christ, so often called "the son of man", on account of his human nature, in which he appeared in great meanness and obscurity. Now many might, through ignorance of him, thinking him to be a mere man, and taking up with common fame, speak evil of him, deny him to be the Messiah, reproach him for the meanness of his parentage and education, and for the freedom of his conversation with publicans and sinners; and do many things contrary to his name, as Saul, whilst a Pharisee did, and thought he ought to do; and yet be afterwards convinced of their mistakes, and be brought to a sense and acknowledgment of them, and obtain pardoning grace and mercy, as Saul did, though a blasphemer; and who is an instance of what is here promised,

it shall be forgiven him
through the grace of God, the blood and mediation of Christ, under the application of the blessed Spirit.

But whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost,
in the sense before declared,

it shall not be forgiven him:
not because the Holy Ghost is greater than Christ; or for want of efficacy in the blood of Christ; or because God cannot pardon it; but because such persons wilfully, maliciously, and obstinately oppose the Spirit of God, without whom there can be no application of pardon made; and remain in hardness of heart, are given up to a reprobate mind, and die in impenitence and unbelief, and so there is no forgiveness for them,

neither in this world, nor in the world to come;
that is; they shall never be forgiven, see ( Mark 3:29 ) . The distinction here used, does not refer to a common one among the Jews, of the Jewish state and the times of the Messiah; but to the present state of life, and that which will be after, or upon death: and it does not suppose there may be forgiveness of other sins, though not of this, in the other world; but strikes at a notion the Jews had, that there are some sins, which repentance and the day of atonement expiate in this life; but there are others, which repentance and the day of atonement do not expiate; and these a man's death expiates, or makes atonement for. The form of confession used by sick persons is the following ;

``I confess before thee, O Lord our God, and the God of our fathers, that my cure is in thy hands, and my death is in thy hands; if it be thy good pleasure, heal me with a perfect healing: but if I die, (hxylo yttym aht) , "let my death be for the pardon", forgiveness, and atonement of all the sins, iniquities, and transgressions, which I have sinned, acted perversely in, and transgressed before thee; and give me my portion in paradise, and justify me "in the world to come", which is hidden for the righteous.''

But the sin against the Holy Ghost is such, as is not forgiven, neither before, nor at, nor after death, nor by it: all sins that are forgiven, are forgiven in this world, and that perfectly and at once; and all that are forgiven in this world, there will be a manifestation and declaration of the pardon of them in another; but such sins as are not forgiven here, there will be no declaration of the pardon of them hereafter. In short, the sense is, that the sin against the Holy Ghost never has forgiveness; it is not pardoned now, and consequently there will be no declaration of the pardon of it hereafter. The Jews use the phrase in the same sense; a certain sick man said to his son,

``give me water, and such certain food; but if not, I will not "forgive thee, neither in this world, nor in the world to come".''

That is, I will never forgive thee.

Source

You know, its funny that reading this, I see that that sin, is not forgiven, in this life or the life to come, but I do not see where it costs one their salvation.

Hum...

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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DeaconDean

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"Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief." -1 Tim. 1:13 (KJV)

Again, I add John Gill comments:

"Who was before a blasphemer
Of the name of Christ, contrary to which he thought he ought to do many things; and he not only blasphemed that name himself, calling him an impostor and a deceiver, but he compelled others to blaspheme it also, ( Acts 26:9 Acts 26:11 ) . This, as well as what follows, is said, to illustrate the grace of God in his conversion, and call to the ministry:

and a persecutor:
for not content to speak evil of Christ, of his person, people, truths, and ordinances, he acted against them; not only breathed out against the disciples threatenings and slaughter, but did many evil things to them, and destroyed them which called on the name of Christ; persecuted Christ in his members, and them beyond measure, even unto death, ( Acts 9:1 Acts 9:5 Acts 9:13 Acts 9:21 ) ( 22:4 ) ( Galatians 1:13 )
And injurious;
not barely using contumelious and reproachful words of Christ, and his people, which is the sense of some versions, and seems to be included in the first character; but using force and violence, and doing injury, not only to the characters, but persons and properties of the saints, making havoc of the church, haling men and women out of their houses, and committing them to prison; and now it was that Benjamin ravined as a wolf, the apostle being of that tribe; see ( Acts 8:3 ) ( Genesis 49:27 ) .
But I obtained mercy:
the Vulgate Latin version reads, "the mercy of God"; God had mercy on him, unasked and unsought for, as well as unmerited; God had mercy on him when he was in the career of his sin, and stopped him; and of his abundant mercy begat him again to a lively hope of forgiveness and eternal life; and through his great love quickened him, when dead in trespasses and sins; and according to the multitude of his tender mercies, forgave and blotted out all his iniquities; and put him openly among his children, his family and household; and to all this added the grace of apostleship: he put him into the ministry, and, of a blaspheming and injurious persecutor, made him a laborious, faithful, and useful preacher of the Gospel.
Because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.
This is said, not as an extenuation of this sin, or as an excuse for himself; for this was not the apostle's method, since in the next verse he calls himself the chief of sinners; besides, ignorance is not an excuse but an aggravation of sin, especially when there are means of knowledge, and these are not attended to; and when persons are not open to conviction, and reject the fullest evidence, which was the case here: nor can unbelief be pleaded in such a man's favour, who heard what Stephen had to say; and though he could not resist his wisdom, received not the truth spoken by him, but consented to his death; moreover, all sins spring from ignorance, and are aggravated by unbelief: but this phrase describes the apostle's state and condition; he was a poor, blind, ignorant bigot, an unbelieving and hardened creature, and so an object of mercy, pity, and compassion; and he who has compassion on the ignorant, and them that are out of the way, had compassion on him. He indeed did not know that Jesus was the Christ, or that his followers were the true church of God; he really thought he ought to do what he did, and that, in doing it, he did God good service; he had a zeal, but not according to knowledge; and therefore did not sin wilfully and maliciously against light, and knowledge, and conscience, and so not the sin against the Holy Ghost; as some of the Pharisees did, and therefore died without mercy, and were not capable subjects of mercy, and proper objects of it; nor is it ever extended to such: but this not being the case of the apostle, mercy was of sovereign good will and pleasure vouchsafed to him; his ignorance and unbelief were not a reason or cause of his obtaining mercy, which is always shown in a sovereign way; but a reason, showing, that that was mercy that was vouchsafed to him, since he was such an ignorant and unbelieving creature. It is a good note of Beza's on the place, "en merita preparationis quae profert apostolus"; "what works, merits, previous qualifications and preparations were there in the apostle, fitting him for the grace and mercy of God", seeing in the midst of his sins, and in the full pursuit of them, the grace of God laid hold upon him, and mercy was shown him? there is nothing between his being a blasphemer, a persecutor, an injurious person, an ignorant unbeliever, and his obtaining mercy."

Source

Again, we see Paul explaining to Timothy his actions, what he had done, prior to salvation.

Did you also know that the "Torah" had provisions for sins committed out of ignorance?

"And if a soul sin, and commit any of these things which are forbidden to be done by the commandments of the Lord; though he wist it not, yet is he guilty, and shall bear his iniquity. And he shall bring a ram without blemish out of the flock, with thy estimation, for a trespass offering, unto the priest: and the priest shall make an atonement for him concerning his ignorance wherein he erred and wist it not, and it shall be forgiven him." -Lev. 5:17-18 (KJV)

Any al all sins can and will be forgiven at salvation.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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black.hawk

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I did not say that. I question whether we know God's will, so as to be able to say that he will not forgive that Christians sin.
Anymore than we can look at a person and say they are or are not a Christian.

Look again at the price paid to save us and ask yourself. Is God going to throw that away because a person gives in to temptation and sins again.

Don't you realise we are all sinners but that Christians are sinners saved by grace.
Please bear with me and I will answer your question asap.
 
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black.hawk

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I did not say that. I question whether we know God's will, so as to be able to say that he will not forgive that Christians sin.
Anymore than we can look at a person and say they are or are not a Christian.

Look again at the price paid to save us and ask yourself. Is God going to throw that away because a person gives in to temptation and sins again.

Don't you realise we are all sinners but that Christians are sinners saved by grace.
The double jeopardy rule entails Fear of God, which is intrinsic to the New Covenant of Christ. Hebrews 6:4

Love and fear of God are opposite sides of the coin, which are supposed to work in tandem to ensure one's observance of the Covenant.

There can be no concept of salvation at all without Fear of God, nor one's fear of breaking the Covenant. Hebrews 6:4
 
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Tolworth John

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Love and fear of God are opposite sides of the coin, which are supposed to work in tandem to ensure one's observance of the Covenant

How can I fear someone who willingly gave up eveything to save me.
Jesus talked about us loving him and out of love obeying him.

The Almighty, Creator God is our heavenly Father.
He is AWE some, in that he is terrifing in his holiness and purity, yet he also loves us with a passion that is beyound our comprehension.
 
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DeaconDean

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Love and fear of God are opposite sides of the coin, which are supposed to work in tandem to ensure one's observance of the Covenant.

There is something inherently wrong with how you said that.

Yes, to a certain extent we are to both "love and fear" God.

Fear Him, if you sin willingly. For example: You know its wrong to have an affair with another mans wife, but you do it anyway. (But there is always forgiveness)

And "love", Paul told us that there is "no condemnation".

"There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." -Rom. 8:1 (KJV)

But even at that, there is a catch. Now I'm including myself in this, who here, you and I included, are so "Spirit Filled", so sanctified, that we will not sin?

And, we have this promise:

"Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire." -1 Cor. 3:13-15 (KJV)

Don't misunderstand what is presented here, there is no way, absolutely no way, I support the heresy of antinomianism. (Lawlessness)

If you die, and somehow, you have a sin(s) that you may have forget to ask forgiveness of, you will be tried, and any work that you have done, may be burnt up, but yet, you'll still be saved. That is the promise of God via Paul.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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black.hawk

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There is something inherently wrong with how you said that.

Yes, to a certain extent we are to both "love and fear" God.

Fear Him, if you sin willingly. For example: You know its wrong to have an affair with another mans wife, but you do it anyway. (But there is always forgiveness)

And "love", Paul told us that there is "no condemnation".

"There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." -Rom. 8:1 (KJV)

But even at that, there is a catch. Now I'm including myself in this, who here, you and I included, are so "Spirit Filled", so sanctified, that we will not sin?

And, we have this promise:

"Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire." -1 Cor. 3:13-15 (KJV)

Don't misunderstand what is presented here, there is no way, absolutely no way, I support the heresy of antinomianism. (Lawlessness)

If you die, and somehow, you have a sin(s) that you may have forget to ask forgiveness of, you will be tried, and any work that you have done, may be burnt up, but yet, you'll still be saved. That is the promise of God via Paul.

God Bless

Till all are one.
But, surely, fear is an important inducement, so one does not commit any mortal sins in the first instant?

So, I agree that we should Fear God if we have willfully sinned, but Fear of God should also prevent it happening in the first place.

For why should people respect/obey the Law at all, unless they are fearful of the consequences?

There is a saying that "Prevention is better than cure", and it is far better to avoid lung cancer than to try and repair the damage once the illness has been contracted.
 
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DeaconDean

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But, surely, fear is an important inducement, so one does not commit any mortal sins in the first instant?

So, I agree that we should Fear God if we have willfully sinned, but Fear of God should also prevent it happening in the first place.

For why should people respect/obey the Law at all, unless they are fearful of the consequences?

There is a saying that "Prevention is better than cure", and it is far better to avoid lung cancer than to try and repair the damage once the illness has been contracted.

You misunderstand, I am not saying anything against fearing God. Jesus said:

"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." -Mt. 10:28 (KJV)

"but Fear of God should also prevent it happening in the first place."

This goes back to what I said previously:

Since the point of salvation, have you been so sanctified by the Holy Spirit, has the Holy Spirit so infilled you that even now, you are unable to sin?

And sadly, if we accept this:

""but Fear of God should also prevent it happening in the first place."

To become our "standard", then there is not one person born, EVER, that deserves to be saved.

But thank God John wrote:

"If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us." -1 Jn. 1:8-10 (KJV)

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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