What do we know about James the Just

AbbaLove · Jan 30, 2018

Open Heart said:
I believe both men accepted the full idea that a true legitimate faith includes works, that anything which doesn't produce works is fraudulent. I think we are on the same page with this.

The paths that He shall direct (when followed) will result in "works" that are pleasing to the Father, even if at times we may not always understand His Direction

Definition of a God-Kind of Faith: "Trust in the Lord with all your heart, And lean not on your own understanding; In all your ways acknowledge Him, And He shall direct your paths." (Proverbs 3:5-6 NKJV)

ralliann · Jan 30, 2018

Open Heart said:
Paul was dispelling a different heresy, that where you can work your way to heaven, deserve grace: "and not of works." The heresy James was dispelling was faith alone: "not by faith alone." I believe both men accepted the full idea that a true legitimate faith includes works, that anything which doesn't produce works is fraudulent. I think we are on the same page with this.

Actually it is known by the audience of the messages. James is speaking to Jews....

Open Heart · Feb 1, 2018

ralliann said:
Actually it is known by the audience of the messages. James is speaking to Jews....

Are you saying the gospel is different for Jews than for Gentiles?

ralliann · Feb 1, 2018

Open Heart said:
Are you saying the gospel is different for Jews than for Gentiles?

0
No. I am saying Jews kept the law, just like unbelieving Jews. Yet James has to explain concerning works of faith in Christ Jesus.

visionary · Feb 2, 2018

ralliann said:
0
No. I am saying Jews kept the law, just like unbelieving Jews. Yet James has to explain concerning works of faith in Christ Jesus.

Does that mean explaining the works within the law to gentiles?

yeshuaslavejeff · Feb 2, 2018

ralliann said:
Actually it is known by the audience of the messages. James is speaking to Jews....

I believe YHVH'S message is to gentiles also, for those with ears to hear His Word. As Yeshua stated His Own sheep hear His Voice, and all Scripture is helpful for those seeking YHVH'S Kingdom.

Open Heart · Feb 2, 2018

ralliann said:
0
No. I am saying Jews kept the law, just like unbelieving Jews. Yet James has to explain concerning works of faith in Christ Jesus.

How does any of that relate to the fact that Paul and James are dispelling different heresies but preach the same gospel?

BTW, when we say Jews, we mean all Jews. If you are referring to Jews who believe in Jesus/Yeshua, then we say Messianic Jews or believing Jews or Christian Jews, not Jews, since Jews automatically includes non-believing Jews as well.

ralliann · Feb 3, 2018

Open Heart said:
How does any of that relate to the fact that Paul and James are dispelling different heresies but preach the same gospel?

I do not think I would agree with the notion of different heresies. Paul and James are both addressing issues of works with regards to salvation. The differences are the audiences being spoken to is all. James is not militating against Paul. Messianics do not teach any one is saved because they keep the law of Moses.

Open Heart said:
BTW, when we say Jews, we mean all Jews. If you are referring to Jews who believe in Jesus/Yeshua, then we say Messianic Jews or believing Jews or Christian Jews, not Jews, since Jews automatically includes non-believing Jews as well.

I distinguished between believing Jews and non believing Jews, to explain the particular text of James. However, we are speaking of James in concert with Paul, which includes Gentiles. Therefore works which Messianics and non Messianic Jews share are not works of faith which saves, obviously. Therefore works of faith which save according to James, are works which are not Messianic alone, in concert with Paul.

visionary · Feb 3, 2018

Open Heart said:
How does any of that relate to the fact that Paul and James are dispelling different heresies but preach the same gospel?

depends on audience.

Open Heart · Feb 3, 2018

ralliann said:
Messianics do not teach any one is saved because they keep the law of Moses.

You are absolutely right! As a Messianic Jew, I say that keeping the Torah has nothing to do with eternal life.

However, this doesn't mean that obedience in general and doing good works mean nothing. I don't believe OSAS. I believe as Jesus taught that if we do not do unto the least of these my brethren, we will go away into eternal punishment. IOW, I make a distinction between the moment we first become Christians, which is by faith, and maintaining our salvation--that faith must be authentic, meaning it produces obedience and good works, or there is no justification. In my personal opinion, if we are a Christian, and we know that murder is a sin, and we of our own free will murder someone, we sever our relationship with God. The only way to regain our salvation again is to repent of the murder and return to God's ways, availing ourselves of his grace.

ralliann · Feb 3, 2018

Open Heart said:
You are absolutely right! As a Messianic Jew, I say that keeping the Torah has nothing to do with eternal life.

Amen we agree.

Open Heart said:
However, this doesn't mean that obedience in general and doing good works mean nothing.

James says this of works of faith
Yes Salvation is by faith alone.

A true faith that saves has works.

James says :
Jas 2:8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:

Paul says:

Ga 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Ro 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another; for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.

Ro 13:9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Moses says:
Le 19:18 Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.

Open Heart · Feb 6, 2018

ralliann said:
Yes Salvation is by faith alone.

We cannot use the word "alone" and be scritural: James is very clear that we are not justified by faith alone.

visionary · Feb 6, 2018

Open Heart said:
We cannot use the word "alone" and be scriptural: James is very clear that we are not justified by faith alone.

Amen.. "Faith" as a term has been separated from action and is now thought of as a philosophy. The misuse of it in this setting leads one to think that it can't be by faith "alone". Truth is that faith is a action expressed. How it is expressed in thoughts, words and deeds reveals that faith. I think "alone" is the misleader, as faith is all inclusive and can not be separated. As God said "I am"... It is who we are. We are an expression of our faith.

ralliann · Feb 6, 2018

Open Heart said:
We cannot use the word "alone" and be scritural: James is very clear that we are not justified by faith alone.

Yes we can say alone when it comes to salvation. But we cannot say alone when it comes to faith. That is what is very clear in James. James speaks specifically about faith which has specific works. James says,"I will show you my faith by my works".
Lu 6:33 And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye? for sinners also do even the same.
Mt 5:46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
Mt 5:47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?

Clearly faith in Christ Jesus produces specific works, which go beyond the works of the wicked, and beyond the works of unbelievers.

ralliann · Feb 6, 2018

visionary said:
Amen.. "Faith" as a term has been separated from action and is now thought of as a philosophy. The misuse of it in this setting leads one to think that it can't be by faith "alone". Truth is that faith is a action expressed. How it is expressed in thoughts, words and deeds reveals that faith. I think "alone" is the misleader, as faith is all inclusive and can not be separated. As God said "I am"... It is who we are. We are an expression of our faith.

I never spoke of faith alone? Rather I said, "Messianic" alone. This is in agreement I believe with this faith group?
Being a Judaism is not what saves. And "Messianic" is what distinguishes Believer from believer, as it is a Judaism in distinction to Christianity, yes? Audience even matters here in this discussion.

visionary · Feb 9, 2018

ralliann said:
I never spoke of faith alone? Rather I said, "Messianic" alone. This is in agreement I believe with this faith group?
Being a Judaism is not what saves. And "Messianic" is what distinguishes Believer from believer, as it is a Judaism in distinction to Christianity, yes? Audience even matters here in this discussion.

As Christianity made a distinction from Judaism in the early days of faith, that was not an apostle or Yeshua's idea.

Elihoenai · Feb 9, 2018

Jehovah/Yahweh Elohim determines Judah and not what fakes profess Judah to be.

Genesis 49:8-12 Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

8 Judah! thou -- thy brethren praise thee! Thy hand [is] on the neck of thine enemies, Sons of thy father bow themselves to thee.

9 A lion's whelp [is] Judah, For prey, my son, thou hast gone up; He hath bent, he hath crouched as a lion, And as a lioness; who causeth him to arise?

Revelation 5:4-5 Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

4 And I was weeping much, because no one was found worthy to open and to read the scroll, nor to behold it,

5 and one of the elders saith to me, `Weep not; lo, overcome did the Lion, who is of the tribe of Judah, the root of David, to open the scroll, and to loose the seven seals of it;

ralliann · Feb 9, 2018

visionary said:
As Christianity made a distinction from Judaism in the early days of faith, that was not an apostle or Yeshua's idea.

HUH? What was not an Apostle or Yeshua Idea? My post spoke concerning what is distinguished in scripture at that time among all believers. This is maintained to this day. We do not distinguish Messianic from Christian, concerning works which save us, correct?

ralliann · Feb 9, 2018

ralliann said:
oops double post.

BukiRob · Feb 9, 2018

visionary said:
James presided over the Apostolic Council in Jerusalem which heard the arguments regarding whether Gentiles would have to be circumcised after the Law of Moses.

Acts 15:13 And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, men and brethren, hearken unto me: Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for His name. And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up: That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom My Name is called, saith the Lord, Who doeth all these things. Known unto God are all His works from the beginning of the world.

Wherefore, my sentence is , that we trouble not them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood. For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

I personally believe that most of us miss what the real debate was about in Acts 15. Its in my opinion about WHO can be saved.

One MUST remember that even during this period of time Jews had almost NO interaction with the Goy to do so, would make them unclean.

It is then, therefore easy to see why the Believing Pharisee's would say that the goy would have to convert (become circumcised and follow Torah.) and THEN they would be saved.

Notice what Paul, Barnabas and Peter's debate with them is centered at... That G-d was moving among the gentiles DISPROVING the argument that the goy had to 1st convert and THEN they could be saved.

What do we know about James the Just

Circumcism Of The Heart

christian

Well-Known Member

christian

Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I.

simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

Well-Known Member

christian

Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I.

Well-Known Member

christian

Well-Known Member

Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I.

christian

christian

Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I.

Who has ceased to eat Manna?

christian

christian

Newbie

Similar threads