Show me someone who claims to not willfully sin and I’ll show you a willful liar.

Grip Docility said:

We struggle. Even Paul struggled.

Thorn?

Cultural Christianity has become semantics obsessed and void of connective truth that acknowledges real life.

The Bible? It hasn’t lost one bit of effectiveness and struggle of humanity is cover to cover.

Jesus holds our honesty to higher standards... and if we aren’t forgiven sinners then 1 John 1:8 is a lie.

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Paul struggled with it until he understood what God was telling him...Then the 'thorn' was dealt with...He obeyed God and sent that thorn back to the pit. No struggle.

Cultural Christianity? What's that? A new demomination or something?
Semantics obsessed....Hmmm The Book is words... the covenant is words ... a covenant is a legal contract....Ruled by....Words! You had better be concerned with semantics because if you don't speak what the Word says then God cannot back you up...But guess who will use your words against you any time he can.
The Old Covenant is full of struggle, but the New Covenant is full of people learning to walk in the Word, casting their struggles onto Jesus as we are supposed to do.

See..Your words contradict the Word...We are not forgiven sinners.....We WERE sinners and then we got forgiven....Big difference!

Grip Docility said:

Oh? “Unsaved”...

My my... Jew miss a lot in scripture.

Saved doesn’t mean Righteous.

It means saved from reaping what we deserve.

Guess who reaped it for the whole world?

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Saved doesn't mean righeousness..Well you're right there....
2 Corinthians 5:21
For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. Being saved puts us into a position where we can become the righteousness of God.

Now that's interesting....Earlier you said we are not saved from the consequences of our sin..Now you say that we are saved from those consequenses....What's up?

Denadii said:

Again...We were all sinners until we died..We were all equally condemned until we died...Then we were born again a brand new creature, that is, one who never existed before...Jesus took our sin to the cross, became sin, so we could be made the righteousness of God in His anointing...Did He fail at that. No? Then we are not sinners but the righteousness of God...We cannot be both.

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Actually Christians are both, Christians are sealed with the Spirit of God the Spirit being perfect and from above, while our fleshly bodies are not glorified and since they are corruptible, will perish. When we were born again, we did not receive new fleshly bodies, nor were the desires of the flesh removed (though changed). However the Christian can overcome the flesh, the Christian can please God, where non-Christians cannot. The Christian has new desires conflicting with the flesh, hence we can be tempted, we must be engaged in spiritual warfare. Make no mistake it is a daily struggle, a "fight", we are to "fight the good fight" and that by faith. If it were not possible for Christians to sin, where is the temptation, where is the spiritual warfare, where is the fight? To whom is the Apostle Paul addressing in his letters and why the rebuke, why the warnings?

In the atonement, Christ paid for all of our sins...past, present, and future, He paid for them all, and His righteousness is imputed to His people, and that is how an unrighteous sinner is declared righteous before a Holy God. The Holy Spirit brings newness of life and sanctifies the believer, unfortunately many confuse sanctification with the imputed righteousness of Christ, wherein God declares righteous unworthy sinners that He graciously chose to have mercy on to the praise of His glory.

Apologetic_Warrior said:

Actually Christians are both, Christians are sealed with the Spirit of God the Spirit being perfect and from above, while our fleshly bodies are not glorified and since they are corruptible, will perish. When we were born again, we did not receive new fleshly bodies, nor were the desires of the flesh removed (though changed). However the Christian can overcome the flesh, the Christian can please God, where non-Christians cannot. The Christian has new desires conflicting with the flesh, hence we can be tempted, we must be engaged in spiritual warfare. Make no mistake it is a daily struggle, a "fight", we are to "fight the good fight" and that by faith. If it were not possible for Christians to sin, where is the temptation, where is the spiritual warfare, where is the fight? To whom is the Apostle Paul addressing in his letters and why the rebuke, why the warnings?

In the atonement, Christ paid for all of our sins...past, present, and future, He paid for them all, and His righteousness is imputed to His people, and that is how an unrighteous sinner is declared righteous before a Holy God. The Holy Spirit brings newness of life and sanctifies the believer, unfortunately many confuse sanctification with the imputed righteousness of Christ, wherein God declares righteous unworthy sinners that He graciously chose to have mercy on to the praise of His glory.

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I'll accept this. Well....about ninety percent of it....First argument...We are not both...We are the righteouness of God..Why? He has cleansed us from all unrighteousness. Then we do a sin...We are no longer righteous....But when we confess our sin, He is faithful andjust to forgive us our sin and to cleanse us fromALL unrighteousness....Now we have no sin..So what do we do? If we sin, confess it and get back into righteousness.

Second...We do not have a fleshly nature..But we have instead the nature of God... Old habits die hard...So what is happening? We work out our own salvation (our deliverance fromt the old nature and grow in our new nature....
We have flesh bodies still but we are not in the flesh but in the Spirit.
Romans 8:9
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Before we died the flesh ruled the man..Now the man is in the Spirit and rules the body...We need to learn to do that as a way of living.

Grip Docility said:

Show me someone who claims to have overcome Willful sin in this body of death... and I will show you a willful liar.

1 John 1:8

1 John 2:2 is the ONLY solution!

We are all willful sinners!!!

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I think we can overcome our desire to sin, with the Lord's guidance.

dreadnought said:

I think we can overcome our desire to sin, with the Lord's guidance.

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Riiiiiiiiiight you are Laddie! With His help....After all we do have the Holy Spirit as a part of us.

I find the problem is how christians word things. To non-christians and even to some christians, it comes out wrong.

For example many will say "I am without sin, Jesus died for my sins!". To a non-believer thats confusing because they may know sin basically means you did something bad that a christian should not do. Which includes a ton of things such as swearing. So the non-believer may say "So you are perfect and do not do ungodly things? You have not swore, lied, get angry....etc since you were born again?". Here the christians tends to say "Well I am not perfect." So then the non-christian says "Wait so how can you be not perfect but also not sin?". Then from here it goes around in circles.

The problem is the word "sin". Once your born again and you screw up do you call that screw up a sin? Or do you use another word?

In my case I used to swear ALOT. This was after I was saved, I learned to swear. Then eventually I learned to stop. There are some rare times where maybe in a heated moment I may use a swear word. Then I feel guilty and prayer for forgiveness from the Lord and move on. When I do pray I say "Dear Lord, forgive me for sinning and swearing just now!...... (on and on...etc)".

I call it a sin. Jesus died for our sins yes, but it doesn't mean we somehow are instantly turned into a version of Jesus whos never sins aka "messes up".

The next thing to debate would be when someone asks "If Jesus died for your sins, then why do you pray for forgiveness when you mess up? Aren't those what He died for?". This is another issue people find confusing, again even amongst some christians. In my case I pray for forgiveness when I mess up because we are still supposed to pray for forgiveness. If not then it just means we don't care to much about if we mess up or not. We cannot grow as christians if we do not have a method that reminds us we are imperfect. The Holy Spirit convicts us of things, so then we are reminded to work on ourselves and pray.

The last thing people will find confusing about those who claim to be perfect/sinfree is how does God judge them when they get into heaven since they lead their life thinking they are sin free, without screwing up....etc. And this is a smart thing to think about because anyone who claims to live their life perfectly will be shocked when they get to heaven and God is like "So.... about you claiming to be perfect.... we need to talk...".

I've been to a few churchs in my life time and the best churchs are the ones where the pastor (like our current one) who says anyone who claims they don't mess up, the don't this, that or the other are not fooling anyone. Especially God. The pastor says even he is far from perfect and has his moments where he has to get on his knees and pray.

NothingIsImpossible said:

I find the problem is how christians word things. To non-christians and even to some christians, it comes out wrong.

For example many will say "I am without sin, Jesus died for my sins!". To a non-believer thats confusing because they may know sin basically means you did something bad that a christian should not do. Which includes a ton of things such as swearing. So the non-believer may say "So you are perfect and do not do ungodly things? You have not swore, lied, get angry....etc since you were born again?". Here the christians tends to say "Well I am not perfect." So then the non-christian says "Wait so how can you be not perfect but also not sin?". Then from here it goes around in circles.

The problem is the word "sin". Once your born again and you screw up do you call that screw up a sin? Or do you use another word?

In my case I used to swear ALOT. This was after I was saved, I learned to swear. Then eventually I learned to stop. There are some rare times where maybe in a heated moment I may use a swear word. Then I feel guilty and prayer for forgiveness from the Lord and move on. When I do pray I say "Dear Lord, forgive me for sinning and swearing just now!...... (on and on...etc)".

I call it a sin. Jesus died for our sins yes, but it doesn't mean we somehow are instantly turned into a version of Jesus whos never sins aka "messes up".

The next thing to debate would be when someone asks "If Jesus died for your sins, then why do you pray for forgiveness when you mess up? Aren't those what He died for?". This is another issue people find confusing, again even amongst some christians. In my case I pray for forgiveness when I mess up because we are still supposed to pray for forgiveness. If not then it just means we don't care to much about if we mess up or not. We cannot grow as christians if we do not have a method that reminds us we are imperfect. The Holy Spirit convicts us of things, so then we are reminded to work on ourselves and pray.

The last thing people will find confusing about those who claim to be perfect/sinfree is how does God judge them when they get into heaven since they lead their life thinking they are sin free, without screwing up....etc. And this is a smart thing to think about because anyone who claims to live their life perfectly will be shocked when they get to heaven and God is like "So.... about you claiming to be perfect.... we need to talk...".

I've been to a few churchs in my life time and the best churchs are the ones where the pastor (like our current one) who says anyone who claims they don't mess up, the don't this, that or the other are not fooling anyone. Especially God. The pastor says even he is far from perfect and has his moments where he has to get on his knees and pray.

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Not to be rude..but...what's your point...I missed it...

The bible says "let the one who names the name of the LORD depart from iniquity". It should be our goal to have no sin in our lives. Sure there are areas that we are all working through, but it should not be an excuse to sin. Our goal should be to be sinless.

I willfully sin every time I get on the highway and deal with those drivers that I am almost certain was put in my path by the devil himself.....lol.

Did you just reword it by mistake or? Well one is "Show me someone who claims to have overcome Willful sin" the other is "show me someone who claims not to willfully sin"?

1st your just like all the rest of us in this. Meaning your looking from the outside in. You read the word and you gave your own personal view.. thanks. Now there are countless times we don't "willfully sin".

Jesus can never lie and means everything He says. So Jesus said more then once "go and sin no more" <--to people that were not even believers. So we in this life have a choice. Its written "For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace". You and I do not have to sin. No God no demon no fallen angel no flesh makes us sin. No we can not live a sinless life because our flesh has not been changed.

To "willfully sin".. that for me would be scary. Well again sin does not have dominion. I would question that ones walk with the Lord. All in all... just repent do a 180.. not 360.. flip that leaf over and keep going. As I read and understand what my Father tells me

I've wondered if the pursuit of sinlessness and vanity, and possibly, a trap...

"Come as you are", He says... He'll help and clean you up, by trusting in Him to do so... That way it will not be for you to be boasting... Which would not be good for you...

Is, a sinless life, a "vanity"...?

How much would a sinless life really matter anyway, and I'm not trying to promote sin, just saying... That if were all honest we all miss the mark... Paul was born again, but still sinned sometimes, as did many of them, Paul talked about this struggle that were all in in Romans 7, and includes himself as a "present tense" sinner...

To put the burden on someone to be "completely sinless" often just makes them into a worse sinner in other ways anyway...? What is the point of continually trying to do away with certain sins and failing all the time...?

Why am I trying to be sinless...? In my own strength... pointless...?

I think honesty can trump sin any day...

Neogaia777 said:

...can trump sin any day...

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The mainstream media seems to think so.

Oh, man, I need to go to bed. I'm getting punchy.

nonaeroterraqueous said:

The mainstream media seems to think so.

Oh, man, I need to go to bed. I'm getting punchy.

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Mainstream media does not have, nor knows the truth, is is a lie...

Grip Docility said:

Show me someone who claims to have overcome Willful sin in this body of death... and I will show you a willful liar.

1 John 1:8

1 John 2:2 is the ONLY solution!

We are all willful sinners!!!

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I would say differently.
We are all naturally born in sin, (not our will).

We all are born, not believing in God, (not our will).

We all corrupt our souls, it being IN our unbelieving naturally born bodies, (not our will).

We who grow and age, (not our will), hear and learn what the world has to say. (Bombarded).

We who choose to hear and learn, what the Lord has to say, go to where we can hear, or buy a book and read for ourselves. (That is our own will to do so).

It is our option, to hear, to read, to walk away, in disbelief...
or to continue to hear, reading, learning...
And choose to Beleive in our hearts, and confess that belief to the Lord.

That is the DIVISION, among men.

Whereby the Lords first DIVISION among men, was between men who AGREED to follow along, and men WHO DID NOT AGREE to follow along...ie Hebrews/Gentiles.
EX 8:23

Another DIVISION, among men, gave no consideration to their race (ie Jew or Gentile), or to their gender (male or female), or to where in the world they make their abode.

This DIVISION, among men, is precisely among ALL men, Who trust to believe the Word of God is True, or who reject to believe the Word of God is True.
Luke 12:51

This DIVISION: is being effected, daily.
Some are becoming in Standing "WITH" the Lord forever; (Gods WILL)
All others are "AGAINST" the Lord, until they decide to come to the Lord, or forever, of those who reject Him, and die WITHOUT Him.
Matt 12:30 (Gods WILL)

Those men "WITH" the Lord, are "WITH" Him forever. They sin no more. (Gods WILL, effected via Gods Power)
1 John 3:9

God Bless,
SBC

Grip Docility said:

Show me someone who claims to have overcome Willful sin in this body of death... and I will show you a willful liar.

1 John 1:8, 1 John 2:2 is the ONLY solution!

We are all willful sinners!!!

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Not true.

Seems, some Christians want to make excuses for their willful or intentional sins/evil-deeds/law-breaking = falsely believe that they have the license to sin and still be saved from hell. ...
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HEBREWS.10: =
26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord. And again, “The Lord will judge His people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

32 But recall the former days in which, after you were illuminated, ...
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1JOHN.1:8 & 2:2 very likely refers to unintentional sins/evil-deeds/law-breaking which are forgivable and can be atoned from judgment/punishment, while 1JOHN.3:4 & 5:16 refers to willful or intentional sins/evil-deeds like blasphemy, idolatry, murder, adultery, stealing, rape, sodomy, sorcery/witchcraft, etc. ...

1JOHN.1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.

2:1 My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. 2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

The Test of Knowing Him
3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. ...
.....

Sin and the Child of God
1JOHN.3:4 Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. 5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. 6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.

7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God. ...
....

1JOHN.5:16 If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. There is sin leading to death. I do not say that he should pray about that. 17 All unrighteousness is sin, and there is sin not leading to death.

Knowing the True—Rejecting the False
18 We know that whoever is born of God does not sin; but he who has been born of God keeps himself, and the wicked one does not touch him.

19 We know that we are of God, and the whole world lies under the sway of the wicked one.

20 And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us an understanding, that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.

21 Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen.
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MATTHEW.7: =
I Never Knew You
21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

I read the discussion just after reading this: Remember how you once loved Me. Be sorry for your sin and love Me again as you did at first. If you do not, I will come to you and take your light out of its place. I will do this unless you are sorry for your sin and turn from it ~ Rev 2:5 (NLV).

And if our response is "Yes, Lord!", and we do as admonished, we receive as in the affirmation in verse 7: You have ears! Then listen to what the Spirit says to the churches. I will give the fruit of the tree of life in the garden of God to everyone who has power and wins.

Grip Docility said:

Show me someone who claims to have overcome Willful sin in this body of death... and I will show you a willful liar.

1 John 1:8

1 John 2:2 is the ONLY solution!

We are all willful sinners!!!

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In reading the Gospels I learned that while some people who went to listen to Jesus were sinners, they had faith enough to be healed. Others did not. When Jesus was preaching in Nazareth, the town where he grew up, people wanted put him down reminding each other Jesus was a carpenter's son, like he was not from a prominent or wealthy family, neither was a chief priest or member of the Sanhedrin. Although Jesus laid hands on some of the sick, he did no great miracles there as they lacked faith. See also: Mark 6:1-6, Matthew 13:53-57 and Luke 4:14-30.

There is a reward for righteousness. Whether a person claims to be innocent or not, God can remember what a person did.