A verse that does not belong in the Bible

They knew how to read and write, so certainly there were that so called 'books' of their time, like the Torah scroll.

I believe what he says is true because that book is apart of the Bible. I think the one who wrote that book had available to himself many books because he was so wealthy. So, I think that gives him credit to write words like the one you referenced. Plus, many college students might agree to the words you referenced here.

Do people think that the Jews were the only ones who could read and write? The Egyptians could do that thousands of years before Israel was a nation. The books may have been made of clay tablets, but they were books nevertheless. There have been examples of the writing of the ancient Sumerians, thousands of years ago. Archaeologists have unearthed thousands of clay tablets with writing on them containing official documents, and literature of the times. There were written materials all over the known world, and Solomon would have known that. He could well have got that knowledge from his 1000 pagan wives! Ur of the Chaldees where Abraham originated from was a sophisticated society with multi-story homes and running water. They would have had a system of writing, detailing their literature and official and business records. Not everything was oral tradition. So to say that Solomon was wrong when he spoke of "many books" shows a lack of knowledge of the history of written language and extent of it around the known world.

Matthew B said:

I believe what he says is true because that book is apart of the Bible. I think the one who wrote that book had available to himself many books because he was so wealthy. So, I think that gives him credit to write words like the one you referenced. Plus, many college students might agree to the words you referenced here.

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The hand copying of manuscripts was big business and kept multitudes employed in all the nations in the known world around Israel. It remained so for thousands of years right up to the time when the printing press was invented.

Daniel Marsh said:

Ecclesiastes 12:12
And further, by these, my son, be admonished: of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh.

Ask yourself, how many books existed back then? Printing press came along well over a thousand years later. manuscripts were hand written. The average person did not have any books at all. So, why does it make sense that this verse is part of the Bible?

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Ecclesiastes was traditionally believed to have been written by King Solomon in his old age, so we are not dealing with the 'average person' here, but one of the wealthiest men of his time. It is fair to say he had no shortage of books.

There were books; obviously. Except they were usually scrolls. Even though the word used is 'book', it doesn't mean that the item denoted is the exact same thing as you would find in a bookshop. One theory is that the first books in what we would regard as in book format were the gospels.

Library of Alexandria - Wikipedia

Next question.

Daniel Marsh said:

Ecclesiastes 12:12
And further, by these, my son, be admonished: of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh.

Ask yourself, how many books existed back then? Printing press came along well over a thousand years later. manuscripts were hand written. The average person did not have any books at all. So, why does it make sense that this verse is part of the Bible?

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While it’s true that very few people in the ANE would have privately owned any written material, there was a LOT of it in royal/temple libraries etc wherever a civilisation had become established - e.g middle and later Sumerian, Akkadian, Egyptian societies and so on. The many thousands of cuneiform tablets unearthed in Mesopotamia for example are mainly official records but there is also poetry, mythology, genealogies, lists of rulers and kings etc. Since the invention of writing there has been a desire to record everything that represents a culture, it’s history (real or invented), beliefs, qualities etc and along with that developing literature and mythology.

Daniel Marsh said:

Ecclesiastes 12:12
And further, by these, my son, be admonished: of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh.

Ask yourself, how many books existed back then? Printing press came along well over a thousand years later. manuscripts were hand written. The average person did not have any books at all. So, why does it make sense that this verse is part of the Bible?

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"Books" can also be translated writings, letter's, scroll etc. you are confining yourself to the English language translation. I'd say the better one is writings. (in any form)

Aside from the expense of hand copied books (scrolls or folios) we must keep in mind that only about 10% of the population was literate --- ruling and priestly classes and their administrators, military officers and merchants. Very few of the common folk were literate.

This thread is cool. In as few as 9 posts, I see Christians, representing at least 5 different countries, all in agreement.

Daniel Marsh said:

Ecclesiastes 12:12
And further, by these, my son, be admonished: of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh.

Ask yourself, how many books existed back then? Printing press came along well over a thousand years later. manuscripts were hand written. The average person did not have any books at all. So, why does it make sense that this verse is part of the Bible?

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Don't conflate book with codex. A book can be a scroll or a collection of loose leaf pages or it can be a codex like a modern book. The codex was an invention of a later date (And a pretty darn good one too). Ancient peoples that were literate had access to writings in the form of scrolls. Perhaps not in the form of a modern library but there was the great library at Alexandria in Hellenized Egypt. Urban areas would have had, however modest at least a small collection of books (scrolls, tablets etc). Also, ancient peoples would have had copies of texts produced by professional scribes that were considered important. So I don't see an issue with the verse.

Daniel Marsh said:

Ecclesiastes 12:12
And further, by these, my son, be admonished: of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh.

Ask yourself, how many books existed back then? Printing press came along well over a thousand years later. manuscripts were hand written. The average person did not have any books at all. So, why does it make sense that this verse is part of the Bible?

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(From Strongs dictionary in Online bible)
05612 ספר cepher say’- fer or (fem.) ספרה ciphrah (#Ps 56:8) sif-raw’

from 05608; n f/n m; [BDB-706b, BDB-707b] {See TWOT on 1540 @@ "1540a" } {See TWOT on 1540 @@ "1540b" }

AV-book 138, letter 29, evidence 8, bill 4, learning 2, register 1, learned + 03045 1, scroll 1; 184

n f
1) book

n m
2) missive, document, writing, book
2a) missive
2a1) letter (of instruction), written order, commission, request, written decree
2b) legal document, certificate of divorce, deed of purchase, indictment, sign
2c) book, scroll
2c1) book of prophecies
2c2) genealogical register
2c3) law-book
2c4) book (of poems)
2c5) book (of kings)
2c6) books of the canon, scripture
2c7) record book (of God)
2d) book-learning, writing
2d1) be able to read (after verb ‘to know’)

It's an anachronism, a bad translation, scrolls or works of literature works fine. Ecclesiastes is n illustration of how someone thinks when worldly wisdom takes over and they get depressed and cannot see the reality of what God is doing. Remember Solomon turned to the false gods of his wives when he got older.

All scripture is useful for teaching, preaching, rebuking, and training in righteousness so the man of God fully equipped for the work he is given to do. Another example of this is when Prophets continue in an exercise of futility in the Old Testament, we're supposed to learn from their mistakes and lack of fruit from that particular methodology.

Daniel Marsh said:

Ecclesiastes 12:12
And further, by these, my son, be admonished: of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh.

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There were extensive libraries with thousands of books. Books were rare and expensive, but they were collected and valued.

Daniel Marsh said:

Ecclesiastes 12:12
And further, by these, my son, be admonished: of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh.

Ask yourself, how many books existed back then? Printing press came along well over a thousand years later. manuscripts were hand written. The average person did not have any books at all. So, why does it make sense that this verse is part of the Bible?

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This needs to be looked at in context, it is part of the summation, it is the last chapter of this books. These sayings were being written down, but everything else that was mentioned with this had one purpose of being mentioned, it was all worthless. The only thing that was worth anything was to fear God and keep his commandments.

8:“Meaningless! Meaningless!” says the Teacher.

“Everything is meaningless!”

13:Now all has been heard;
there is the conclusion of the matter:
Fear God and keep his commandments,
for this is the duty of all mankind.

There is nothing “under the sun” that is capable of giving meaning to life, all those things he tried, all the proverbs he wrote down it comes down to fearing God and keeping his commandments, everything else pales to that.

Daniel Marsh said:

Ecclesiastes 12:12
And further, by these, my son, be admonished: of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh.

Ask yourself, how many books existed back then? Printing press came along well over a thousand years later. manuscripts were hand written. The average person did not have any books at all. So, why does it make sense that this verse is part of the Bible?

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Well, I don't expect you to believe this but there were thousands of books back then...

Daniel Marsh said:

Ecclesiastes 12:12
And further, by these, my son, be admonished: of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh.

Ask yourself, how many books existed back then? Printing press came along well over a thousand years later. manuscripts were hand written. The average person did not have any books at all. So, why does it make sense that this verse is part of the Bible?

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Just because there was no printing press, doesn't mean there couldn't have been any books.
Everything was written on scrolls; not only by Jews, but Romans, Greeks and Egyptians too. The Jews had the books of the OT. Whether or not these were bound into volumes in the way that we have books today, I don't know.
But I'm sure there were many scrolls around.

Strong in Him said:

Whether or not these were bound into volumes in the way that we have books today, I don't know.

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A book bound into a volume with pages (as distinct from a scroll) is called a codex. This is a technology that dates back to the 1st century. Christians adopted the codex technology enthusiastically, and early New Testament manuscripts are in codex form.

Radagast said:

A book bound into a volume with pages (as distinct from a scroll) is called a codex. This is a technology that dates back to the 1st century. Christians adopted the codex technology enthusiastically, and early New Testament manuscripts are in codex form.

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Thank you.

Radagast said:

...and early New Testament manuscripts are in codex form.

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For example, the oldest fragment of the NT is this snippet from the Gospel of John:

It's from a codex, with writing on both sides of the page: John 18:31-33 on one side, and John 18:37-38 on the other.