What is the purpose of endlessly singing the same lyric or phrase?

JOYFUL-ONE said:

I'm thinking through this issue. Does this repetitious singing enhance worship in "Spirit and Truth" (Jn 4.24)? Or is it perhaps just massaging my feelings and even detracting from God? Is the core of worship to focus on God, His character, His deeds, His provision, with thankfulness in my mind?

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When I want to remember a person's name (because I'm horrible at names), I repeat their names...A LOT. XD. In the context of worship, for some people, it drives them crazy, sure, but this doesn't mean it's inherently wrong. When I repeat lyrics in music, I find myself understanding it more, hearing it differently (in a good way), and finding myself finishing the song with a deeper understanding of the prayer/lyric, even a stronger conviction of the prayer.

I think that practically if you're a worship leader, you should definitely make sure the congregation is receptive to a repeating lyric like set a fire or something like that. If most people don't like it, don't do it! Or do it sparingly. I think some churches do it WAY too much. If it's a profound lyric that is perhaps related to the theme or reading of the day, then I think it would help. I like to sing the lyric a couple times, talk about the lyric with music in the background, sing it again, potentially bring them even deeper in the lyric by explaining it one more time differently or with a different angle, then I sing it one last time and we're done.

EastCoastRemnant said:

We are told not to use vain repetitions in Matt 6:7. While the verse specifically mentions prayer, singing to God is a form of prayer.

The danger of mindlessly repeating a word or phrase is it can take us onto Satans vantage ground as we allow our minds to become open to the spirits. Eastern mysticism uses this technique through chants and can take us into a trance like state, opening us up to the enemy.

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Though I agree with you to an extent, where in scripture does it say that "mindlessly repeating a word or phrase...take(s) us onto Satan's vantage ground..."?

The warning in Matthew 6:7 was to not be like the Gentiles/Pagans who mindlessly "pray" to their gods. We have to remember that the main idea of prayer and sacrifice among the pagans was to appease the gods so that you could go on with your own life. You had to be careful to “take care of” all of the gods by mentioning them, and saying all the right words, lest you bring a curse upon yourself.

Jesus was telling us that this kind of praying wouldn't cut it in the New Covenant! We are to lift our heads and our eyes in prayer. He then goes on to teach us the "Lord's Prayer".

There are a few places in scripture that repitition of prayer is practiced.
Consider the prayers of the angels in Revelation 4:8:

And the four living creatures, each of them with six wings, are full of eyes all round and within, and day and night they never cease to sing, “Holy, holy, holy, is the Lord God Almighty, who was and is and is to come!”

Perhaps most importantly, we have Jesus in the Garden of Gethsemane, in Mark 14:32-39:

And they went to a place which was called Gethsemane; and he said to his disciples, “Sit here, while I pray.” And the took with him Peter and James and John, and began to be greatly distressed and troubled. And he said to them, “My soul is very sorrowful, even to death; remain here, and watch.” And going a little farther, he fell on the ground and prayed that, if it were possible, the hour might pass from him. And he said, “Abba, Father, all things are possible to you; remove this chalice from me; yet not what I will, but what you will.” And he came and found them sleeping, and he said to Peter, ”Simon, are you asleep? Could you not watch one hour? Watch and pray that you may not enter into temptiation; the spirit indeed is weilling, but the flesh is weak.” And again he went away and prayed, saying the same words. And again, he came and found them sleeping… And he came a third time, and said to them, “Are you still sleeping…?”

If we do fall prey to “vain repetition” in prayer, it will not be because we are “saying the same words” over and over in prayer as our Lord did in Mark 14:39. It will be because we are not praying from the heart.

EastCoastRemnant said:

Modern contemplative prayer, aka spiritual formation, uses this principle to lead adherents to open themselves to deceiving spirits. It instructs the person to repeat a word or a phrase to be taken into a meditative trance in order to meet "god"

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I understand some other religions use the "principle" of vain repitition for the purposes of meditation, like "ohm" in buddhism. It's wrong. I agree. I can also see it opening themselves to deceiving spirits if they don't know who the heck they're inviting or trying to meet. BUT, if we're singing a lyric like "spirit lead me where my trust is without borders..." and in the context of a Christian Church where we most likely heard a sermon about Jesus Christ and trust in him, our minds our now only inviting the Spirit of God in our lives (assuming the congregation was properly catechized/taught).

You can't be afraid of doing something because it "seems" like your'e doing the same thing as pagans. It's like saying you shouldn't play the electric guitar in worship because the electric guitar is used in death metal where the music glorifies satan and death.

Mnarvasa001 said:

I understand some other religions use the "principle" of vain repitition for the purposes of meditation, like "ohm" in buddhism. It's wrong. I agree. I can also see it opening themselves to deceiving spirits if they don't know who the heck they're inviting or trying to meet. BUT, if we're singing a lyric like "spirit lead me where my trust is without borders..." and in the context of a Christian Church where we most likely heard a sermon about Jesus Christ and trust in him, our minds our now only inviting the Spirit of God in our lives (assuming the congregation was properly catechized/taught).

You can't be afraid of doing something because it "seems" like your'e doing the same thing as pagans. It's like saying you shouldn't play the electric guitar in worship because the electric guitar is used in death metal where the music glorifies satan and death.

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Contemplative prayer/spiritual formation is taught by Catholics and is being brought into every protestant denomination

EastCoastRemnant said:

Contemplative prayer/spiritual formation is taught by Catholics and is being brought into every protestant denomination

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Not sure if you think that is a good thing or a bad thing.

Mnarvasa001 said:

The warning in Matthew 6:7 was to not be like the Gentiles/Pagans who mindlessly "pray" to their gods. We have to remember that the main idea of prayer and sacrifice among the pagans was to appease the gods so that you could go on with your own life. You had to be careful to “take care of” all of the gods by mentioning them, and saying all the right words, lest you bring a curse upon yourself.
.

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See my post #20

Any sort of repetitive prayer, song, phrase or word, even drumming, can be employed to put the worshipper "into a zone" of meditation or contemplation.

Don't know what kind of a testimony can come from repetiveness ...

~Cassia~ said:

Don't know what kind of a testimony can come from repetiveness ...

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I do not make any judgment on it. It is akin to the use of an icon in meditation. As long as the practice is an aid to worship and not the object of worship.

Mnarvasa001 said:

Not sure if you think that is a good thing or a bad thing.

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By my first post it should be obvious but as a refresher, no opening ones self to possession is is not good.

JOYFUL-ONE said:

I'm thinking through this issue. Does this repetitious singing enhance worship in "Spirit and Truth" (Jn 4.24)? Or is it perhaps just massaging my feelings and even detracting from God? Is the core of worship to focus on God, His character, His deeds, His provision, with thankfulness in my mind?

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That's how worship is like in heaven:

Lily of Valleys said:

That's how worship is like in heaven:

And the four living creatures, each one of them having six wings, are full of eyes around and within; and day and night they do not cease to say,

“Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God, the Almighty, who was and who is and who is to come.”

And when the living creatures give glory and honor and thanks to Him who sits on the throne, to Him who lives forever and ever, the twenty-four elders will fall down before Him who sits on the throne, and will worship Him who lives forever and ever, and will cast their crowns before the throne, saying,

“Worthy are You, our Lord and our God, to receive glory and honor and power; for You created all things, and because of Your will they existed, and were created.” (Revelation 4:8-11 NASB)​

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I love that quote.

"“Holy, holy, holy, is the Lord God Almighty,
who was and is and is to come!”

This is before the 2nd coming of Christ our Savior.

He is coming!

Praise God. Hallelujah.

I lead worship in my church, I don't practice I just pray much before I take to leading. I'll hear in my spirit what song I am to sing, then the next one on and on. Sometimes I'll hear nothing and as I repeat or give words of variation in my song i believe I can feel the Holy Spirit leading to intercede in a certain area be it repentance, thanksgiving, worship etc etc. A seer in my church told me they saw angels ascending and descending as I led in worship. My point is let's flow as the Spirit because He has the agenda; the best we can do is to align to the will of heaven.

~Cassia~ said:

Don't know what kind of a testimony can come from repetiveness ...

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How many times have you read a scripture? Why do it more than once?

JackRT said:

I do not make any judgment on it. It is akin to the use of an icon in meditation. As long as the practice is an aid to worship and not the object of worship.

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Sounds like having a worry stone in one's pocket. As long as it helps to sort things out in one's mind then I guess the effect is serving the purpose.

Dave-W said:

There is a term in Judaism "kavanah" which means intent of the heart. To pray a rote prayer without kavanah is considered worthless.

But praying WITH intent of the heart is NEVER 'vain."

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I dont agree. The context being that meaningless repetitions are useless because God already knows what we need before we ask. It says nothing about the intent of the heart.

Matthew 6:7 “And when you are praying, do not use meaningless repetition as the Gentiles do, for they suppose that they will be heard for their many words. 8 So do not be like them; for your Father knows what you need before you ask Him.

W2L said:

I dont agree. The context being that meaningless repetitions are useless because God already knows what we need before we ask. It says nothing about the intent of the heart.

Matthew 6:7 “And when you are praying, do not use meaningless repetition as the Gentiles do, for they suppose that they will be heard for their many words. 8 So do not be like them; for your Father knows what you need before you ask Him.

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Well, if we're going to take prayer as nothing but as that one verse, and if repetition is meaningless because the Lord already knows what we need, then there wasn't any need for the prayer in the first place: "Lord, your will be done. Amen."

But nobody believes that's all there is to prayer.

It's called "7/11 music"....7 words repeated 11 times. The purpose is to make an aspiring singer/songwriter think of themselves as a singer/songwriter, and to give listener's something new, even if it's bad.

Or in the case of the worship leader using their music in services, it's purpose is to put some different lyrics up on the screen so they aren't doing the same contemporary music over and over every month. Variety trumps quality.

If the singer/songwriter is popular enough personally, (well-liked personality) they are in demand by fans with no musical taste who are willing to turn out to hear them, buy their T-shirts, and buy their CDs, keeping the endless cycle of encouragement and money flow going for them so they can afford to spend time writing even more bad music.

Their fans need to 'just say no' and stop supporting them until they get to work on their quality rather than quantity with another CD, just to be on the Christian music charts and get to do more concerts. This has gone on way too many years and I'm afraid it will only continue. Without the mediocrity, people would complain that there's not enough new music and that the radio stations keep playing the same songs over and over year after year. To them, new is better than old, even when it's bad. It's not like hymnals where a certain amount of quality has to be there to even make the publisher's cut. The only 'cut' that has to be made is that of the buying public, who's desperate.

Christian radio sermon ministry stations also need music to play for a few minutes between half-hour speakers. They could play anything they want, but have proven they have no taste either.

JOYFUL-ONE said:

I'm thinking through this issue. Does this repetitious singing enhance worship in "Spirit and Truth" (Jn 4.24)? Or is it perhaps just massaging my feelings and even detracting from God? Is the core of worship to focus on God, His character, His deeds, His provision, with thankfulness in my mind?

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Thanks for this question. I watched this style evolve over the last 20 years or so, as the IHOP movement spread, and the so-called "harp and bowl" movement. The idea was to allow for extended, or even 24-hour, worship and intercession sessions. At first, we repeated Scripture verses. It declined into more-or-less spiritual-sounding phrases, repeated perhaps 30 or 40 times. I balked at this, and then discovered some fishy mystic-type books in the bookstore, and recognized the influence of the highly repetitive "religion" of my childhood. Attempts to escape have been futile, however; churches everywhere now seem to believe that God is really, really, really, really, really hard of hearing.

Chanting, drumming, dancing, the rosary all can put people into a zone or near hypnotic state where they are very susceptible to suggestion --- into believing or doing things they would never consider in a normal state of mind.