A Faith You Can Touch

Tree of Life

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"As each one has received a gift, minister it to one another, as good stewards of the manifold grace of God." (1 Peter 4:10)

So, each of us is in the priesthood of Jesus > every one of us is able to minister God's own grace "to one another, as good stewards of the manifold grace of God."

This is basic Bible. I do not know what Roman Catholicism officially says about this scripture, nor do I know what Martin Luther and Reformed official representatives have to say. But it's in the Bible.

Catholics and Reformed types alike believe that all believers share in the priesthood of Christ. But Catholics also have a sanctified priesthood. My point here is not to contrast the Catholic Priesthood with the priesthood of all believers - because Catholics embrace both. My point is to contrast a sanctified priesthood with the spiritual priesthood of Jesus.
 
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Tree of Life

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Faith can't, that's true. However, most of what Tree of Life was discussing wasn't about Faith itself, even though that was the title of the thread. Ministers/priests and sacraments like Baptism and the Lord's Supper are not "Biblical Faith." And they certainly are visible!

So what's your position, Albion? Is our faith as visible as Catholicism thinks it is? Or is it more spiritual like the reformers taught?
 
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FireDragon76

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The sacraments as objective. It's a provocative thought.

On the one hand it makes everything so simple. We don't need to concern ourselves with the messy and perplexing business of self examination, theological understanding, faith, and repentance. We just need to participate in the physical act.

I think it's not so straightforward. It's more like we have a faith that is shaped by the sacraments. That's why we usually have a Passing of the Peace before the Supper, why we have prayers after the Supper indicating that the it is not merely about our own personal forgiveness, but also helps us to go out into the world and do the work God has given us to do. That's why we have a confession of sin before absolution. If we didn't do this stuff, we would just be offering a very cheap grace.

Catholics are even more intense in that regard, at least the traditionalist sort.
 
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Albion

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Our ordained ministers are not priests who make sacrifices on behalf of the people.
Agreed, but neither are the priests in some churches other than the one you have in mind. Besides, your complaint was that they are visible, tangible, and you thought that was wrong because God is invisible. That was your #1 point.

Yes. Our lives are to be a living sacrifice of thanksgiving to God. And the church, as a holy priesthood, makes spiritual sacrifices acceptable through Christ (1 Peter 2). But the Roman sacrifice is indeed bloody. The wine becomes the blood of Christ.

As far as I can tell, they do.
Uh, no. If you study this more closely, you will see that they do not.

One can leave the church and, thus, lose their salvation. But as long as they're in the church and not in mortal sin, they are saved.
As stated, that is unequivocally incorrect.

We believe in the spiritual presence of Christ in the sacraments. But we do not believe that we're offering a sacrifice in celebrating communion, as far as I can tell.
That's true. However, it is not the point that you made or that I replied to. You were saying that, among Protestants, the sacraments are only 'signs pointing to the spiritual.' That's not correct. All the Protestant churches that I named--which constitute a majority of Protestants--believe in the doctrine of the Real Presence (in Communion) for example.

I don't think that an audible assurance of forgiveness is a bad thing. But should the audible assurance replace the inner assurance that must be fought for through prayer?
No, but it doesn't. The kind of audible confession you were talking about requires contrition, prayer, and a resolution to amend one's life and try not to commit the same sins again. If it's done in an insincere way, the absolution pronounced by the priest is considered null and void.

In most of these areas, I'm not endorsing the Roman Catholic practice, but you have to get it right if you're going to reject it. ;)
 
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Charlie24

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What's that supposed to mean?


That's one kind of bond.

Yes, I can see that I didn't explain myself very well.

I was referring to your definition of biblical faith. I beg to differ. My faith is totally in a physical object.

The author of Hebrews said that "faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

The "evidence of things not seen" is referring to our faith not relying on the senses, but on the Word of God. The scripture is proof that Jesus Christ was man and God at the same time, died on the Cross for our sins, and rose from the dead.

My faith is totally on that Man, Jesus Christ. I can't see Him but the evidence is found in the Word of God. He is my only hope.

Not only do I depend totally on Christ for my salvation, I depend on Him for everything in my life. Christ laid aside his deity as God and became man. There is proof in scripture that Christ didn't know some things, until He was told by the Spirit, it was because He was a man just as you and I. He was totally led and dependent on the Holy Spirit. He was the example for us to follow, to allow the Holy Spirit to also totally lead us.

If you are not totally placing all your faith in the Man Jesus Christ you are in trouble. This is where sacraments and the Lord's Supper, etc, begin to take faith from the true object of faith, Jesus Christ. False doctrine begins to creep in.

I'm not saying you aren't totally trusting in Christ. I am saying that the latter part of post #6 is confusing and concerning, considering your definition of faith.
 
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Albion

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So what's your position, Albion? Is our faith as visible as Catholicism thinks it is? Or is it more spiritual like the reformers taught?
I'd like to answer you, but the proposition has to be shaped up. Much of what you took exception to isn't actually what the Catholic Church teaches, so that makes it hard to answer yea or nay.
 
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Albion

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My faith is totally on that Man, Jesus Christ. I can't see Him but the evidence is found in the Word of God. He is my only hope.
Alas, this just keeps getting worse.

ALL OF US put our faith inChrist. That IS Biblical faith (to get back to that term that was used earlier).

If you are not totally placing all your faith in the Man Jesus Christ you are in trouble. This is where sacraments and the Lord's Supper, etc, begin to take faith from the true object of faith, Jesus Christ. False doctrine begins to creep in.
And this is where I disagree. There is no inherent conflict between Faith in Christ and the sacraments that Christ ordered us to observe. The sacraments are in no way a substitute for Faith.
 
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Halbhh

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In my re-studies of Catholicism I believe I've noticed an interesting and central difference between it and Reformed Christianity. It's that Catholicism is a very physical faith whereas the reformed faith is invisible and spiritual.

  1. Catholicism has priests you can see. Reformed thought has only one priest - Jesus Christ who is seated at God's right hand. He is invisible.

  2. Catholicism has a sacrifice you can see, touch, and taste in the daily offering of the Eucharist. Reformed theology has no ongoing sacrifice, believing that the one sacrifice of Jesus Christ is sufficient for all time.

  3. Catholicism has sacraments which are automatically effective. If you've been baptized and if you physically continue in the church, celebrating the eucharist, then you are saved. It's not so simple with Protestantism. Baptism and communion are simply signs pointing to a spiritual reality. You can participate in them without being truly saved because salvation is an invisible matter of the heart.

  4. Catholicism has an assurance of forgiveness that you can audibly hear and concrete acts of penance which can either be completed or remain incomplete. A priest tells you that your sins are forgiven. You can do something to ensure that your forgiveness is real. In Reformed thought, forgiveness is a spiritual matter. You can only attain assurance of it through a diligent prayer life and searching of your own heart. The assurance comes from God alone through his word and Spirit.
Perhaps you can think of more examples.

My question is this: Are these physical tokens of faith the biblical expression of faith? Or are these tokens idolatrous and superstitious? Do we have a faith we can touch? Or is the biblical faith more spiritual in nature?

For all (and only reading through to the end gives us the powerful aid):

1 You have searched me, Lord,
and you know me.
2You know when I sit and when I rise;
you perceive my thoughts from afar.
3You discern my going out and my lying down;
you are familiar with all my ways.
4Before a word is on my tongue
you, Lord, know it completely.
5You hem me in behind and before,
and you lay your hand upon me.
6Such knowledge is too wonderful for me,
too lofty for me to attain.
7Where can I go from your Spirit?
Where can I flee from your presence?
8If I go up to the heavens, you are there;
if I make my bed in the depths, you are there.

9If I rise on the wings of the dawn,
if I settle on the far side of the sea,
10even there your hand will guide me,
your right hand will hold me fast.
11If I say, “Surely the darkness will hide me
and the light become night around me,”
12even the darkness will not be dark to you;
the night will shine like the day,
for darkness is as light to you.
13For you created my inmost being;
you knit me together in my mother’s womb.
14I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made;
your works are wonderful,
I know that full well.
15My frame was not hidden from you
when I was made in the secret place,
when I was woven together in the depths of the earth.
16Your eyes saw my unformed body;
all the days ordained for me were written in your book
before one of them came to be.

17How precious to me are your thoughts, God!
How vast is the sum of them!
18Were I to count them,
they would outnumber the grains of sand—
when I awake, I am still with you.
19If only you, God, would slay the wicked!
Away from me, you who are bloodthirsty!
20They speak of you with evil intent;
your adversaries misuse your name.
21Do I not hate those who hate you, Lord,
and abhor those who are in rebellion against you?
22I have nothing but hatred for them;
I count them my enemies.

23 Search me, God, and know my heart;
test me and know my anxious thoughts.
24 See if there is any offensive way in me,
and lead me in the way everlasting.

-------------
No matter our mistakes, He can search our hearts and lead us in the way we need to go.
 
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Albion

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Catholics and Reformed types alike believe that all believers share in the priesthood of Christ. But Catholics also have a sanctified priesthood. My point here is not to contrast the Catholic Priesthood with the priesthood of all believers - because Catholics embrace both. My point is to contrast a sanctified priesthood with the spiritual priesthood of Jesus.
What's the conflict that you see there? Any Catholic--virtually any Christian of any denomination--will say that Christ is the actual head of his church, although there are also ministers of the Gospel who are needed in order to do the work on Earth that he himself commanded.
 
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Ron Gurley

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OP: Q: "...Are these (RCC) physical tokens of faith the biblical expression of faith?..."

A: No. Based on RCC false dogma and non-Biblical:
1. Papal Magisterium
2. Sacred Tradition

FAITH / BELIEF are matters of the SPIRIT ONLY!

Ephesians 2: 4-5,8-10
4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy,
5 MADE US ALIVE with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions
—it is by grace (unmerited Love/Mercy/favor) you have been saved.
8 For by GRACE (Love/Mercy) you have been SAVED through FAITH;
and that (FAITH/BELIEF) not of yourselves,
it is the (spiritual) GIFT of God;

9 NOT as a result of WORKS, so that no one may boast.
10 For we are His workmanship,
created in Christ Jesus for good works,
which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

Hebrews 11:1 [ The Triumphs of Faith ]
Now faith is:
the
assurance of things hoped for,
the conviction of things not seen.
 
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Jonathan Leo

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In my re-studies of Catholicism I believe I've noticed an interesting and central difference between it and Reformed Christianity. It's that Catholicism is a very physical faith whereas the reformed faith is invisible and spiritual.

  1. Catholicism has priests you can see. Reformed thought has only one priest - Jesus Christ who is seated at God's right hand. He is invisible.

  2. Catholicism has a sacrifice you can see, touch, and taste in the daily offering of the Eucharist. Reformed theology has no ongoing sacrifice, believing that the one sacrifice of Jesus Christ is sufficient for all time.

  3. Catholicism has sacraments which are automatically effective. If you've been baptized and if you physically continue in the church, celebrating the eucharist, then you are saved. It's not so simple with Protestantism. Baptism and communion are simply signs pointing to a spiritual reality. You can participate in them without being truly saved because salvation is an invisible matter of the heart.

  4. Catholicism has an assurance of forgiveness that you can audibly hear and concrete acts of penance which can either be completed or remain incomplete. A priest tells you that your sins are forgiven. You can do something to ensure that your forgiveness is real. In Reformed thought, forgiveness is a spiritual matter. You can only attain assurance of it through a diligent prayer life and searching of your own heart. The assurance comes from God alone through his word and Spirit.
Perhaps you can think of more examples.

My question is this: Are these physical tokens of faith the biblical expression of faith? Or are these tokens idolatrous and superstitious? Do we have a faith we can touch? Or is the biblical faith more spiritual in nature?
I see catholism as a false church. It teaches contradictory to the Bible, the very bible they use. They added their own books to it.
The only person I take advise from is the only person capable of destroying both my body and soul. My faith is in Jesus Christ, not some denomination church
 
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Charlie24

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Alas, this just keeps getting worse.

ALL OF US put our faith inChrist. That IS Biblical faith (to get back to that term that was used earlier).


And this is where I disagree. There is no inherent conflict between Faith in Christ and the sacraments that Christ ordered us to observe. The sacraments are in no way a substitute for Faith.

Paul told the Galatian church that adding the requirement of circumcision "nullifies the grace of God," he said, "you have fallen from grace." It's such a serious thing as "Christ is none effect unto you."

What happens when a church adds church membership to faith in Christ, or sacraments, or water baptism, or the Lord's Supper?
 
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FireDragon76

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@Tree of Life mentions "inner assurance" and this is something Lutherans don't focus on. Our faith is not so introspective. It's not about my faith in my faith. It's a faith that looks outward to what Jesus has done on the Cross. Or as Johann von Staupitz told Luther, to look to Jesus on the Cross and know you are predestined. It's a faith that is quite comfortable looking outward to images.
 
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Stormy

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People are brought up in different churches with different practices. Other chose the church that they feel is best for them.

I personally don't see what all the fuss is about. I feel God cares more about how you live your life outside of church than what church you choose.
 
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Winken

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In my re-studies of Catholicism I believe I've noticed an interesting and central difference between it and Reformed Christianity. It's that Catholicism is a very physical faith whereas the reformed faith is invisible and spiritual.

  1. Catholicism has priests you can see. Reformed thought has only one priest - Jesus Christ who is seated at God's right hand. He is invisible.

  2. Catholicism has a sacrifice you can see, touch, and taste in the daily offering of the Eucharist. Reformed theology has no ongoing sacrifice, believing that the one sacrifice of Jesus Christ is sufficient for all time.

  3. Catholicism has sacraments which are automatically effective. If you've been baptized and if you physically continue in the church, celebrating the eucharist, then you are saved. It's not so simple with Protestantism. Baptism and communion are simply signs pointing to a spiritual reality. You can participate in them without being truly saved because salvation is an invisible matter of the heart.

  4. Catholicism has an assurance of forgiveness that you can audibly hear and concrete acts of penance which can either be completed or remain incomplete. A priest tells you that your sins are forgiven. You can do something to ensure that your forgiveness is real. In Reformed thought, forgiveness is a spiritual matter. You can only attain assurance of it through a diligent prayer life and searching of your own heart. The assurance comes from God alone through his word and Spirit.
Perhaps you can think of more examples.

My question is this: Are these physical tokens of faith the biblical expression of faith? Or are these tokens idolatrous and superstitious? Do we have a faith we can touch? Or is the biblical faith more spiritual in nature?
3 & 4 are inaccurate for each authentic Christian, saved by Grace through Faith plus nothing. The works follow.
 
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Winken

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People are brought up in different churches with different practices. Other chose the church that they feel is best for them.

I personally don't see what all the fuss is about. I feel God cares more about how you live your life outside of church than what church you choose.
At the very core of our belief is the Truth provided by the Holy Spirit.
 
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Winken

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OP: Q: "...Are these (RCC) physical tokens of faith the biblical expression of faith?..."

A: No. Based on RCC false dogma and non-Biblical:
1. Papal Magisterium
2. Sacred Tradition

FAITH / BELIEF are matters of the SPIRIT ONLY!

Ephesians 2: 4-5,8-10
4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy,
5 MADE US ALIVE with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions
—it is by grace (unmerited Love/Mercy/favor) you have been saved.
8 For by GRACE (Love/Mercy) you have been SAVED through FAITH;
and that (FAITH/BELIEF) not of yourselves,
it is the (spiritual) GIFT of God;

9 NOT as a result of WORKS, so that no one may boast.
10 For we are His workmanship,
created in Christ Jesus for good works,
which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

Hebrews 11:1 [ The Triumphs of Faith ]
Now faith is:
the
assurance of things hoped for,
the conviction of things not seen.
FAITH, in and of itself, is the assurance. That Faith originated with God and is present in every Believer.
EVIDENCE, in and of itself, is the unseen in every Believer. The Faith is mine, the Evidence is mine, all because of Jesus.
 
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Tree of Life

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Agreed, but neither are the priests in some churches other than the one you have in mind. Besides, your complaint was that they are visible, tangible, and you thought that was wrong because God is invisible. That was your #1 point.

My complaint is that they truly play a priestly role in that they offer sacrifices. I don't think that Anglican priests truly occupy a priestly position. They just claim the title.

Uh, no. If you study this more closely, you will see that they do not.

Maybe you could cite something from the RCC that shows that I'm wrong?

As stated, that is unequivocally incorrect.

Same as above. Please cite a Catholic authority on the issue.

That's true. However, it is not the point that you made or that I replied to. You were saying that, among Protestants, the sacraments are only 'signs pointing to the spiritual.' That's not correct. All the Protestant churches that I named--which constitute a majority of Protestants--believe in the doctrine of the Real Presence (in Communion) for example.

These ideas are not mutually exclusive. Presbyterians believe in a real spiritual presence of Christ and believe that the sacraments are signs.
 
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Tree of Life

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What's the conflict that you see there? Any Catholic--virtually any Christian of any denomination--will say that Christ is the actual head of his church, although there are also ministers of the Gospel who are needed in order to do the work on Earth that he himself commanded.

Yes. But Catholics take it a step further. In Catholicism, the priest stands in the place of Christ when he offers absolution. The pope is the vicar of Christ and is the earthly, visible head of the church. Reformed thought recognizes gospel ministers, but does not go as far as Catholicism.
 
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Daniel9v9

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I think, as some have already expressed, Roman Catholicism don't have monopoly on a tangible faith.

Most orthodox branches hold to the same idea, that Lutherans express as: "The Church is the congregation of saints (not in a titular sense), in which the Gospel is rightly taught and the Sacraments are rightly administered".
 
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