A Faith You Can Touch

[Tree of Life]

In my re-studies of Catholicism I believe I've noticed an interesting and central difference between it and Reformed Christianity. It's that Catholicism is a very physical faith whereas the reformed faith is invisible and spiritual.

1. Catholicism has priests you can see. Reformed thought has only one priest - Jesus Christ who is seated at God's right hand. He is invisible.
   
   
2. Catholicism has a sacrifice you can see, touch, and taste in the daily offering of the Eucharist. Reformed theology has no ongoing sacrifice, believing that the one sacrifice of Jesus Christ is sufficient for all time.
   
   
3. Catholicism has sacraments which are automatically effective. If you've been baptized and if you physically continue in the church, celebrating the eucharist, then you are saved. It's not so simple with Protestantism. Baptism and communion are simply signs pointing to a spiritual reality. You can participate in them without being truly saved because salvation is an invisible matter of the heart.
   
   
4. Catholicism has an assurance of forgiveness that you can audibly hear and concrete acts of penance which can either be completed or remain incomplete. A priest tells you that your sins are forgiven. You can do something to ensure that your forgiveness is real. In Reformed thought, forgiveness is a spiritual matter. You can only attain assurance of it through a diligent prayer life and searching of your own heart. The assurance comes from God alone through his word and Spirit.

Perhaps you can think of more examples.

My question is this: Are these physical tokens of faith the biblical expression of faith? Or are these tokens idolatrous and superstitious? Do we have a faith we can touch? Or is the biblical faith more spiritual in nature?

 

[faroukfarouk]

In my re-studies of Catholicism I believe I've noticed an interesting and central difference between it and Reformed Christianity. It's that Catholicism is a very physical faith whereas the reformed faith is invisible and spiritual.

1. Catholicism has priests you can see. Reformed thought has only one priest - Jesus Christ who is seated at God's right hand. He is invisible.
   
   
2. Catholicism has a sacrifice you can see, touch, and taste in the daily offering of the Eucharist. Reformed theology has no ongoing sacrifice, believing that the one sacrifice of Jesus Christ is sufficient for all time.
   
   
3. Catholicism has sacraments which are automatically effective. If you've been baptized and if you physically continue in the church, celebrating the eucharist, then you are saved. It's not so simple with Protestantism. Baptism and communion are simply signs pointing to a spiritual reality. You can participate in them without being truly saved because salvation is an invisible matter of the heart.
   
   
4. Catholicism has an assurance of forgiveness that you can audibly hear and concrete acts of penance which can either be completed or remain incomplete. A priest tells you that your sins are forgiven. You can do something to ensure that your forgiveness is real. In Reformed thought, forgiveness is a spiritual matter. You can only attain assurance of it through a diligent prayer life and searching of your own heart. The assurance comes from God alone through his word and Spirit.

Perhaps you can think of more examples.

My question is this: Are these physical tokens of faith the biblical expression of faith? Or are these tokens idolatrous and superstitious? Do we have a faith we can touch? Or is the biblical faith more spiritual in nature?

"For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day. For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory; While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal." (2 Corinthians 4.16-18)

 

[Albion]

In my re-studies of Catholicism I believe I've noticed an interesting and central difference between it and Reformed Christianity. It's that Catholicism is a very physical faith whereas the reformed faith is invisible and spiritual.

1. Catholicism has priests you can see. Reformed thought has only one priest - Jesus Christ who is seated at God's right hand. He is invisible.

1. But you have pastors and other ordained ministers. The difference seems less than you are willing to say.
   
   

2. Catholicism has a sacrifice you can see, touch, and taste in the daily offering of the Eucharist. Reformed theology has no ongoing sacrifice, believing that the one sacrifice of Jesus Christ is sufficient for all time.

3. That's true, although some Protestants believe that we, the worshippers, offer ourselves in an unbloody sacrifice.
   
   

4. Catholicism has sacraments which are automatically effective. If you've been baptized and if you physically continue in the church, celebrating the eucharist, then you are saved.

5. Well, that's just incorrect. Catholicism does not believe you're automatically saved.

6. It's not so simple with Protestantism. Baptism and communion are simply signs pointing to a spiritual reality.

7. ...among those Protestants who are of the Anabaptist tradition.
8. 
   
9. Probably a majority of Protestant churches--Lutherans, Episcopalian, Methodist, and yes, Presbyterian--do not subscribe to the idea that the sacraments are merely symbolic.
10. 
    

11. Catholicism has an assurance of forgiveness that you can audibly hear and concrete acts of penance which can either be completed or remain incomplete. A priest tells you that your sins are forgiven. You can do something to ensure that your forgiveness is real. In Reformed thought, forgiveness is a spiritual matter. You can only attain assurance of it through a diligent prayer life and searching of your own heart. The assurance comes from God alone through his word and Spirit.

12. Roughly correct, although I can't see why the "audible" reassurance of forgiveness would be a major turn-off. However, it's also correct to say that Catholicism believes that silent acts of contrition and repentance are effective, not just sacramental Confession.

My question is this: Are these physical tokens of faith the biblical expression of faith? Or are these tokens idolatrous and superstitious? Do we have a faith we can touch? Or is the biblical faith more spiritual in nature?

My personal opinion is that your presentation needs a little work.

P. S. I apologize for the messy look of the numbering. I find it hard to work around that function when replying.

 

[Charlie24]

Biblical faith cannot be seen or touched.

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
Heb. 11:1

Catholicism will lead you to believe many things that are not biblical.

 

[faroukfarouk]

@Tree of Life PS: The lyrics of 'There is a Day' - if you follow them through - deal exactly with this question also:

 

[Albion]

Biblical faith cannot be seen or touched.

Faith can't, that's true. However, most of what Tree of Life was discussing wasn't about Faith itself, even though that was the title of the thread. Ministers/priests and sacraments like Baptism and the Lord's Supper are not "Biblical Faith." And they certainly are visible!

 

[Ματθαίος]

In my re-studies of Catholicism I believe I've noticed an interesting and central difference between it and Reformed Christianity. It's that Catholicism is a very physical faith whereas the reformed faith is invisible and spiritual.

1. Catholicism has priests you can see. Reformed thought has only one priest - Jesus Christ who is seated at God's right hand. He is invisible.
   
   
2. Catholicism has a sacrifice you can see, touch, and taste in the daily offering of the Eucharist. Reformed theology has no ongoing sacrifice, believing that the one sacrifice of Jesus Christ is sufficient for all time.
   
   
3. Catholicism has sacraments which are automatically effective. If you've been baptized and if you physically continue in the church, celebrating the eucharist, then you are saved. It's not so simple with Protestantism. Baptism and communion are simply signs pointing to a spiritual reality. You can participate in them without being truly saved because salvation is an invisible matter of the heart.
   
   
4. Catholicism has an assurance of forgiveness that you can audibly hear and concrete acts of penance which can either be completed or remain incomplete. A priest tells you that your sins are forgiven. You can do something to ensure that your forgiveness is real. In Reformed thought, forgiveness is a spiritual matter. You can only attain assurance of it through a diligent prayer life and searching of your own heart. The assurance comes from God alone through his word and Spirit.

Perhaps you can think of more examples.

My question is this: Are these physical tokens of faith the biblical expression of faith? Or are these tokens idolatrous and superstitious? Do we have a faith we can touch? Or is the biblical faith more spiritual in nature?

Those tokens are pagan religion, has nothing to do with the true Jesus Christ, who is in the Spirit and Truth.

 

[FireDragon76]

Indeed. The Reformed faith is different from Catholicism. But it's also potentially distinct from Lutheranism in that respect.

Lutherans are also a physical faith. We believe we receive Christ into our hands through the institution of the Lord's Supper. We also have traditional religious art in some of our churches, such as beautiful altarpieces. Some of our churches also have statues and other iconic images (such as my avatar image of the Madonna of Stalingrad).

We also have a similar understanding to Catholics concerning the sacraments as objective, that they are real grace, not hypothetical grace or merely representational.

 

[Ματθαίος]

Indeed. The Reformed faith is different from Catholicism. But it's also potentially distinct from Lutheranism in that respect.

Lutherans are also a physical faith. We believe we receive Christ into our hands through the institution of the Lord's Supper. We also have traditional religious art in some of our churches, such as beautiful altarpieces. Some of our churches also have statues and other iconic images (such as my avatar image of the Madonna of Stalingrad):


We also emphasize music a great deal. Luther said music, next to the Word of God, terrified the Devil the most, and that music was a gift and grace from God. He saw music as sacramental.

Faith cannot be physical by definition. Only pagan cult of idolatry is physical. Jesus said, true worshipers are in Spirit and Truth only. So, Catholicism is against Jesus and is satanic in its nature.

 

[Charlie24]

Faith can't, that's true. However, most of what Tree of Life was discussing wasn't about Faith itself, even though that was the title of the thread. Ministers/priests and sacraments like Baptism and the Lord's Supper are not "Biblical Faith." And they certainly are visible!

If you have faith in those things, I suppose you are right.

I don't place my faith in ministers, priests, sacraments like baptism, or the Lords Supper! Nor do I look for those things help me.

My faith is in Jesus Christ alone. All things the believer needs are found in the unseen Saviour. That's why it's called faith.

 

[FireDragon76]

Faith cannot be physical by definition. Only pagan cult of idolatry is physical. Jesus said, true worshipers are in Spirit and Truth only. So, Catholicism is against Jesus and is satanic in its nature.

Faith can be physically mediated. The pillar of fire, , the Ten Commandments, the Ark, the Tabernacle, the Temple, all those are physical realities in the Old Testament of God's presence and glory to his people. In the New Covenant, we have new physical realities such as Baptism and the Lord's Supper where God is present.

 

[com7fy8]

Catholicism has priests you can see. Reformed thought has only one priest - Jesus Christ who is seated at God's right hand. He is invisible.

"As each one has received a gift, minister it to one another, as good stewards of the manifold grace of God." (1 Peter 4:10)

So, each of us is in the priesthood of Jesus > every one of us is able to minister God's own grace "to one another, as good stewards of the manifold grace of God."

This is basic Bible. I do not know what Roman Catholicism officially says about this scripture, nor do I know what Martin Luther and Reformed official representatives have to say. But it's in the Bible.

 

[Albion]

If you have faith in those things, I suppose you are right.

Wait a minute. "Biblical faith" (to quote your earlier post) is not defined as having confidence in any physical object or ordinary development. It's a bond between God and Man. That's what we mean by "Saving Faith." It's not like saying you have faith that Georgia will defeat Alabama in tonight's ball game.

 

[com7fy8]

By the way . . . every child of God is able to minister God's grace, as 1 Peter 4:9-10 clearly even commands us all. And we can see one another!

Also, we can minister God's own comfort to each other > 2 Corinthians 1:3-4 > this is like how our High Priest has gone through things which we go through, so that now He can feel for us and minister to us > Hebrews 4:15. So, like our High Priest Jesus we go through things of this life, then we minister to others the comfort which we get with God while we go through things. So, this is included in being in the priesthood of Jesus.

Catholicism has a sacrifice you can see, touch, and taste in the daily offering of the Eucharist. Reformed theology has no ongoing sacrifice, believing that the one sacrifice of Jesus Christ is sufficient for all time.

But our Apostle Paul commands us all >

"And walk in love, as Christ also has loved us and given Himself for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweet-smelling aroma." (Ephesians 5:2)

So, we all are commanded to love like Jesus on the cross was loving while sweetly pleasing our Father while He went through all that. This is a basic command of the Bible.

God desires how we have His own Son Jesus in us making us pleasing Him sweetly while we are loving any and all people, in His all-loving love. So, at all times we have Jesus in us, sharing so with us. We have the presence of Jesus, growing in us more and more as our new inner Person > Galatians 4:19 with 2 Corinthians 5:17.

So, my question is whether or not a person is getting this as the result of one's sacraments, since this is a Bible basic of what happens in us because of God's grace. Plus, how much does a preacher's sermons deal with this, which I would say is so essential and important?

 

[Charlie24]

Wait a minute. "Biblical faith" (to quote your earlier post) is not defined as having confidence in any physical object or ordinary development. It's a bond between God and Man. That's what we mean by "Saving Faith." It's not like saying you have faith that Georgia will defeat Alabama in tonight's ball game.

Your statements are very revealing. I now see by your definition of faith why you believe many things must be believed to be saved.

The bond between God and man is called a covenant. Saving faith is a personal experience with the man Jesus Christ.

 

[com7fy8]

"Biblical faith" (to quote your earlier post) is not defined as having confidence in any physical object or ordinary development. It's a bond between God and Man.

"But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him." (1 Corinthians 6:17)

"Now hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us." (Romans 5:5)

"faith working through love" (in Galatians 5:6)

So, faith has us each "one spirit with Him" in His own love, so we personally experience how God is in His love "in our hearts". In our bond . . . our union . . . with God, God wins ! ! ! God's grace is almighty to change our hearts to become the way Jesus is in love in us . . . sharing this with us. Jesus is "gentle and lowly in heart" (Matthew 11:29), and His love in us makes us gentle and humble in how we relate as God's family >

"with all lowliness and gentleness, with longsuffering, bearing with one another in love," (Ephesians 4:2)

And God's love is gentle and quiet. This love makes us beautifully pleasing to our Father, more and more as we grow in how God's love is in us >

"rather let it be the hidden person of the heart, with the incorruptible beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is very precious in the sight of God." (1 Peter 3:4)

So, this is how faith makes us pleasing to God, or it is included God is in union with us > "one spirit with" every one of us His children, changing us, correcting us, curing us in His own love, so we are perfected in His love >

"Love has been perfected among us in this: that we may have boldness in the day of judgment; because as He is, so are we in this world." (1 John 4:17)

God bonds with each person whom Jesus saves, then God works in each person's will to do all God pleases >

"for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure." (Philippians 2:13)

This comes with the bond of faith, bonding us with God Himself living in our wills and doing all He pleases . . . therefore in such personal sharing intimate with Him. So, God's will is not done at a distance from Him, but in union with Him in His own love shared with us

 

[Albion]

Your statements are very revealing. I now see by your definition of faith why you believe many things must be believed to be saved.

What's that supposed to mean?

The bond between God and man is called a covenant.

That's one kind of bond.

 

[1213]

...Are these physical tokens of faith the biblical expression of faith? Or are these tokens idolatrous and superstitious? Do we have a faith we can touch? Or is the biblical faith more spiritual in nature?

I think Biblical faith is more spiritual, because of these:

It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is useless. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.
John 6:63

Truly, truly I tell you, if anyone keeps my word, he will never see death at all.”
John. 8:51

 

[FireDragon76]

I think Biblical faith is more spiritual, because of these:

It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is useless. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.
John 6:63

Truly, truly I tell you, if anyone keeps my word, he will never see death at all.”
John. 8:51

That's not necessarily contrasting spirit and matter as some kind of Greek-style dualism.

Also, we recognized that God became physical and material in Jesus Christ, and he is still physical and material reigning in heaven. The spiritual and material are reconciled in Christ, as he is the New Adam who reconciles all things in himself, fulfilling the role that Adam could not, to be the mediator between Spirit and creation. Therefore, the material world is good and holy. Matter was worthy of becoming the body of God, and it is therefore worthy of respect when used in a holy manner.

 

[Tree of Life]

1. But you have pastors and other ordained ministers. The difference seems less than you are willing to say. \

Our ordained ministers are not priests who make sacrifices on behalf of the people.

That's true, although some Protestants believe that we, the worshippers, offer ourselves in an unbloody sacrifice.

Yes. Our lives are to be a living sacrifice of thanksgiving to God. And the church, as a holy priesthood, makes spiritual sacrifices acceptable through Christ (1 Peter 2). But the Roman sacrifice is indeed bloody. The wine becomes the blood of Christ.

Well, that's just incorrect. Catholicism does not believe you're automatically saved.

As far as I can tell, they do. One can leave the church and, thus, lose their salvation. But as long as they're in the church and not in mortal sin, they are saved.

Among those Protestants who are of the Anabaptist tradition. Probably a majority of Protestants--Lutherans, Episcopalians, Methodists, and yes, Presbyterians--do not subscribe to the idea that the sacraments are merely symbolic.

We believe in the spiritual presence of Christ in the sacraments. But we do not believe that we're offering a sacrifice in celebrating communion, as far as I can tell.

Roughly correct, although I can't see why the "audible" reassurance of forgiveness would be a major turn-off. However, it's also correct to say that Catholicism believes that silent acts of contrition and repentance are effective, not just sacramental Confession.

I don't think that an audible assurance of forgiveness is a bad thing. But should the audible assurance replace the inner assurance that must be fought for through prayer?

 

[Tree of Life]

Indeed. The Reformed faith is different from Catholicism. But it's also potentially distinct from Lutheranism in that respect.

Lutherans are also a physical faith. We believe we receive Christ into our hands through the institution of the Lord's Supper. We also have traditional religious art in some of our churches, such as beautiful altarpieces. Some of our churches also have statues and other iconic images (such as my avatar image of the Madonna of Stalingrad).

We also have a similar understanding to Catholics concerning the sacraments as objective, that they are real grace, not hypothetical grace or merely representational.

The sacraments as objective. It's a provocative thought.

On the one hand it makes everything so simple. We don't need to concern ourselves with the messy and perplexing business of self examination, theological understanding, faith, and repentance. We just need to participate in the physical act.

On the other hand I wonder if this amounts to idolatry. Are we placing our hope in a physical act and physical token to save, when only the spiritual work of Christ can truly save?