Does the Bible teach works must follow God's grace as a part of our salvation?

Blood Bought 1953

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That would be funny if it weren't so sad/untrue.

The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God.

Doesn't look like any wicked here will be going to heaven. ;) :

Eph 5:3-6 But among you there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed, because these are improper for God’s holy people. Nor should there be obscenity, foolish talk or coarse joking, which are out of place, but rather thanksgiving. For of this you can be sure: No sexually immoral, impure or greedy person—such a person is an idolater—has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God’s wrath comes on those who are disobedient. Therefore do not be partners with them.

He's telling the very people we are telling what they have to do, people that are among him claiming to be Christians. He's telling them that Gods wrath come to the disobedient or wicked, same exact thing. He is very clear.

He might as well be saying these very words, "NO! the wicked will go to hell, even you here that are supposed Christians."

Go tell an Atheist that on the street, "Did you know wicked people can go to heaven?" Good chance they'll will laugh at you. Even they know the word of God clearly, where some have deluded themselves. To see it any other way means one has chosen to confuse themselves so they can "think" they can do as they want, and all because that's what they'd rather do...and not do as God requires.


My “yes” was not meant to be funny.i gave the answer the legalists have been dying to hear....get all the venom out while the time is right....meanwhile I’m going to eat some cake with my hell-bound friends....back later with my much- anticipated defense....bon appetite!
 
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PeaceByJesus

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Four questions:

#1. Can a believer die in one or two unrepentant sins (like lying or lusting after a woman) and be saved as long as they generally lived a holy life by faith?
As with the OP, this is a loaded question which needs clarification. By "unrepentant" do you mean they knowingly committed these sins in the past, and were conscious of doing so and convicted of them yet never repented of such which Godly sorrow effects, and thus would knowingly willfully do so again, or even are doing so?

Or they did do such and did not realize it (for one, deceit is not always apparent, nor do we always recognize hypocrisy ourselves) or perhaps forgot about it (not in hardness of heart) before they realized guilt (do you remember every violation of what God commands, which can include civil laws?), but had a contrite heart that did not want to sin.

Or they are even struggling with a habitual sin, including world affections, yearning to find victory over it in the fear of God?

In the first case i believe the answer is they are presently headed to Hell, since this cognizant impenitence is inconsistent with saving faith and the contrite heart and holy life it effects.

And that God gives space to repent (Rv. 2:21) and works to bring his own to that place, (1Co. 11:32) and in which we can be instruments. (1Co. 5)

I believe King David somehow anesthetized his conscience regarding his own conduct during the time his great sins - and which ignorance is not the same as mere being unaware - but the moment he was convicted of his sins then he repented out of Godly sorrow.

And Christian faith is that of holding faith, and a good conscience, versus putting both away: "Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck." (1 Timothy 1:19)

(Note that there is also such a thing as a believer being so scrupulous that that they constantly see themselves as sinful, and with the devil working to convince them they are lost and might as well live as such. If you doubt me, read the tremendous back and forth struggle of John Bunyan in regard to assurance, which at length he obtained.)

As to the 2nd and 3rd, I see in Scripture that such are saved who have sins of ignorance or perhaps forgot about it, or were struggling with a besetting sin, but who have contrite heart that did not want to sin, and thus repent and ask God for forgiveness for sins they are convicted of, or would do so if they were.

And i am sure there are multitudes of sins we have committed that we are not aware of and never confessed every time we did so, but if we are not repentant in heart over them in general (and thus would confess them to God if we were realized them) then God will chasten us in order to deal with them.

For this is consistent with true faith, which is not rebellion but neither does it mean one must attain perfection of character, having victory over everything that in unholy in him, and thus never sin, though this is out of weakness, not willful knowingly impenitently sinning. I do not see this sinlessness in the 11 disciples of Christ whose names were written in heaven, (Luke 10:20) or in Peter or Paul.

Instead, it is not being sinless that obtains eternal life with God, but repentant faith, (Acts 3:19) the faith which effects obedience, includes repentance when convicted of doing so, and
which "the Lord is nigh unto them that are of a broken heart; and saveth such as be of a contrite spirit" (Psalms 34:18) refers to.

Thus the reason the obedient (as described) are saved is because they are of true faith, manifested by obedience thru the Spirit, not because they have become perfect in character, while the reason the obedient are damned is because they are not of faith, not because they are not as good as believers (indeed, some may have more light and character and be better than some ignorant believers of weak character).

But relative to light and grace given (which the Righteous Judge does take into account) I largely basically agree with how J. C. RYLE - 1816-1900 describes this faith of the regenerate in "Are you born again?"

"Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin;" and again, "Whosoever is born of God sinneth not." - 1John 3:9; 5:18.

A man born again, or regenerate, does not commit sin as a habit. He no longer sins with his heart and will and whole inclination, as an unregenerate man does. There was probably a time when he did not think whether his actions were sinful or not, and never felt grieved after doing evil. There was no quarrel between him and sin; they were friends. Now he hates sin, flees from it, fights against it, counts it his greatest plague, groans under the burden of its presence, mourns when he falls under its influence, and longs to be delivered from it altogether. In one word, sin no longer pleases him, nor is even a matter of indifference; it has become the abominable thing which he hates. He cannot prevent its dwelling within him. If he said he had no sin, there would be no truth in him (1 John 1:8). But he can say that he cordially abhors it, and the great desire of his soul is not to commit sin at all. He cannot prevent bad thoughts arising within him, and short-comings, omissions, and defects appearing, both in his words and actions. He knew, as James says, that "In many things we offend all" (James 3:2). But he can say truly, and as in the sight of God, that things are a daily grief and sorrow to him, and that his whole nature does not consent unto them.

#2. Can a person live out their faith without any works and or holiness and be saved?
That you even ask me this evidences that you have not read the few posts (as here) I made on this thread, and even the one to you in which i said

"this saving justifying faith, is a faith which effects obedience by the Spirit in word and in deed, in heart and in life, whereby "the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit, (Romans 8:4) insofar as we do.."


And to Kenny'sID:

Conversely, to practice unrighteousness, versus characteristic obedience by the Spirit who enables and motivates it (thus only God really deserves any credit) testifies to unbelief, thus having no covering for sin, leaving such damned, either never having come to faith or having an "an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God," (Hebrews 3:12) or via a false gospel. (Galatians 5:1-5)

In short, the answer to your question is NO.
#3. Do you believe that sin is merely a loss of rewards and not a loss of salvation?
This also needs clarification. Do you mean unrepentant, unconfessed known sin by impenitent "believers" and thus would knowingly willfully do so again, or even are doing so as in the first category i described in response to #1? Then the answer is already given there (forfeiting what faith obtained, if they were believers once).

For those of true repentant faith then there sins will not send them to Hell, for these are of faith, thus they characteristically practice righteousness, and repent when convicted of not doing so, and in essences are repentant of sins of ignorance.

And since the basis for their justification is not being sinless, but faith which purifies the heart (Acts 15:9) and is counted for righteousness, then while repentant confessing of sin is consistent with that faith, yet sins of ignorance, and imperfection of character is not going to damn them if they are of repentant faith.

And if the condition for justification is sinlessness, and needing to confess every sin you have, or else be damned, then so will having sinful character defects.

Yet the mature man of God means seeking to be as Christ in all aspects of character, which Paul yearned for personally, looking forward to the day when "this corruptible must put on incorruption," (1 Corinthians 15:53) "Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself," (Philippians 3:21) while seeking to presently be as much as a resurrected believer as he could be, which is what I these expressing:

Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. (Philippians 3:12) I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. (Philippians 3:14)

And i sadly have a l o n g way to go in that.
#4. Do you believe all born again believers are changed to a point beyond their own free will whereby they will never have the desire to go back to a life of sin and unbelief anymore?
I think I just answered that with my last remark (made before I read this). However, 2 Peter 1 does tell us how we can becoem mature enough that we will never fall. Not there yet myself, sadly.
Side Note:
I am not sure what you are trying to say with Catholicism here; But I do not believe in Catholicism. I believe in following Christ by what the Scriptures say alone.
Because it seemed you might be confusing the effect of faith (holiness, works) with the actual cause of justification (faith which effects works) and which is consistent with Catholic teaching in which the effect of regeneration holiness is what formally justifies a person, and which means he must have this condition (which becomes not simply being forgiven but perfection of character) to enter Heaven, thus necessitating the invention of RC purgatory, which my comments addressed.

Here James 2 if often invoked as regard works justifying, but which they justify the believer as being one of saving faith, if it is by works that God imputes righteousness (versus effectual faith which results in practical righteousness) - which is what Paul is dealing with in Romans 4 - then James is contradicting both Moses (Genesis 15:6) and Paul.

Yet Paul also teaches that it is those of obedient faith which shall be justified. (Romans 2:13)

Hope this helps, if not infallible.
 
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EastCoastRemnant

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By the way, as God has created us human beings with a conscience,
Our natural inclination is enmity against God... it is only by His Grace and Love that we have any in ourselves. Just watch your news screen over the next couple of years to see what happens as the Spirit is lifted from this earth. When the proverbial four angels let lose the winds of strife... then we'll see who has on Christs character...
 
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Kenny'sID

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My “yes” was not meant to be funny.i gave the answer the legalists have been dying to hear....get all the venom out while the time is right....meanwhile I’m going to eat some cake with my hell-bound friends....back later with my much- anticipated defense....bon appetite!

Nothing to defend, you seem to have it down pretty well now. ;)
 
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PeaceByJesus

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If we are not saved by works then that means works are not necessary for salvation then.
A believer is washed, sanctified and justified in conversion by faith before He does any outward works by the Spirit, which faith purifies the heart (Acts 15:9) is counted for righteousness, (Romans 4:5) and makes one adopted as children of God by Jesus Christ (Ephesians 1:5) accepted in the Beloved on His account and made to sit together with Him in Heaven, (Ephesians 1:5,6; 2:6) "from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself." (Philippians 3:20-21)

Which justifying faith is evidenced by "things which accompany salvation" and justifies one as being a believer.

"Sir, if you are a true believer then you are a child of God by adoption on Christ's account, but I need to see your credentials."
 
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Blood Bought 1953

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There was a guy in Pauls church in the unbelievable,sin- filled city of Corinth.He was a Believer or he would not have been in Paul’s Church.That fact is never questioned in his sordid tale.His sin was so wicked they didn’t even have a name for it.He was having sex with his own mother.Some say stepmother ,whatever, I think the point is made.This man did not lose his Salvation.He was turned over to Satan so that his flesh would be destroyed,in order to save his spirit.He was thrown out of the church.His escapades were well known to the entire town and that is where God drew the line....He was ready to kill him,,take him home prematurely.This is how God handles wickedness in the Body of Christ.First you are warned by the spiritual ones in the church, if that is ineffective you are handed over to Satan where you are ejected from the church and will likely suffer sickness and pain.If these things don’t get the job done God will kill the offender before the wickedness ,like leaven ,spreads and destroys the church from within and let’s The on- looking world say—-see,they are no different from the rest of us “”. God won’t have it.This particular man came to his senses eventually and was welcomed back into the congregation.He escaped death by the skin of his teeth.He sure sinned and “ got away with it” Didn’t he ? If you are lucky,you may meet him some day and ask him if “ he” felt like he “ got Away “ with his wickedness. God bless.
 
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amariselle

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I am glad. For the conversations I had with other Eternal Security proponents was very real; And what they told me was what they truly believed.

Fair enough. It was you who brought that up after all.

No. Nowhere did I claim that folks within this thread believe in the extreme version of Eternal Security that makes for an allowance for excessive sin.

I fail to see why you thought it necessary to ask such a question of some here in that case. It is almost as though you posed the question as something of a challenge. I simply do not understand why you would do so if you don't think anyone here agrees with the statement you say one person made to you.

If somebody like another poster (within another thread I had shown you) openly admits they are saved regardless of committing certain grevious sins, then I am merely relaying what they believe and I am not condemning them. Their own words condemn themselves.

Be that as it may (and I'm not going to go over the whole "grievous sins" subject again) that is not what I was addressing.

It's not an accusation to ask a question. I am merely wondering what they believe. Some on this forum do actually believe that (Whether you want to believe that or not).

And yet, as I've said before, why is the most horrific scenario a person can come up with always brought up when salvation is discussed?

I am more than happy to go over the context with you involving the long list of verses I posted before.

I will respectfully decline. You and I have already talked about such things at great length, as you know.

Nowhere will you find Scripture ever saying such a thing.

False. Many, many verses do.

Only a select few verses are taken out of context will make such a thing so;

Incorrect.

And even then it would be a violation of basic morality or the goodness of God to do so.

That statement makes absolutely no sense. It is God Himself Who saves us, and it is His plans that come to pass. So, would you suggest that God "violated basic morality" or His own goodness in sending His Son? And by clearly proclaiming Him to be the only hope of salvation?

For God cannot agree with a belief that says we can sin and still be saved even a little.

In the "flesh" we all sin. The "inner man" is without sin and cannot sin. All born again believers are "new creations" in Christ. God actually does agree with the very plan of salvation He brought to pass.

For if we sin, then we bring death upon ourselves unless we repent.

Where is that written in regard to a saved, born again believer who has been sealed with the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption?

Consider these words:

1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
- 1 John 2:1-2

We also know from Scripture that Jesus is our Great High Priest and our Mediator, and that He "everliveth" to make intercession for us.

You will find many Scriptures that make it more than apparent that the "flesh wars against the Spirit", and that our earthly, physical bodies are not without sin. (One day they will be transformed, imperishable and immortal).

For you obviously believe that believers do not stop sinning after they accepted Christ.

In the "flesh", no. The "inner man", is entirely without sin, yes.

However, you believe they are saved.

I do because Scripture is clear that all who have done the will of the Father and believed on the Son are saved. They have passed from death to life and are born again. They are sealed with the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption, and Christ has promised He will lose none, but will raise them up on the last day.

This means they are saved even while they sin.

In the flesh, yes. The "inner man" is born of God and is entirely without sin.

But can God agree with sin? Surely not.

Do you understand what happened on the cross of Calvary? Does that look like God "agreeing with sin" to you?

Of course God doesn't "agree with sin." Our iniquities were laid on Christ, He purged our sins and paid the price we could never pay. We are bought at a price. Please do not diminish that.

Anyways, please find a verse that says the above words that you say and then we can go from there.

I encourage you to read the Epistles. They deal with many sinful and abberant behaviours that needed to be corrected. Yet all of the Epistles were written to saved believers. In 1 Corinthians, for example, Paul addresses his readers (the church in Corinth) as "brethren", "saints" and "babes in Christ." He also addresses them as "carnal" due to some of the sinful things they were doing, and for which he chastised them.

The point is, they were saved and did not lose their salvation.

God the Father sets his seal upon those who work towards the meat that leads to everlasting life.

"Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed." (John 6:27).

Here are those verses with the surrounding verses, so that you can understand the proper context and exactly what "the meat the endureth unto everlasting life" is: (also note, the "Son of man" [Jesus] is the One Who gives us this "meat", we do not earn it by our righteous works, it is a gift).

27 Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.

28
Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?

29
Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

30
They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work?

31
Our fathers did eat manna in the desert; as it is written, He gave them bread from heaven to eat.

32
Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.

33 For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.

34
Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread.

35
And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.

37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day. - John 6:27-40

Nobody said about earning anything. If Bob received a car as a gift for free does that mean that not running red lights and not driving drunk means that Bob is trying to pay for his car or does it mean Bob is merely being responsible with his gift?

That analogy falls far short, as you know. Our "responsibility" and good works is part of discipleship, not salvation. Salvation is a gift.

1 John 1:7 refutes that kind of thinking.

No. Hebrews 10:26 is talking to believers. Unbelievers have not received the knowledge of the truth. Besides, the context is talking about perdition or falling away. "Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him." (Hebrews 10:38).

Your point? Of course Hebrews is written to believers.

There is no such thing as adding one's own righteousness to Christ's righteousness because Christ is the One who does the good work within a believer. Jesus saves in Justification and in Sanctification.

There are indeed those who do try to take credit for even a small part of their salvation. There are those who, as it is written, "go about to establish their own righteousness."

Yes, we are to establish Christ's righteousness both in Justification and in Sanctification.

We "establish Christ's righteousness?"

If one seeks to obey God's Word, how can they be condemned?

When did I say a person shouldn't seek to obey God's word? It is written that there is no more condemnation for those in Christ Jesus.

For if there were no commands given to us in the New Testament, you would probably be on to something. But there are a 1,000 + commands in the New Testament. Oh, but that is discipleship that does not involves salvation, right?

Salvation is all because of what Jesus has done for us, it is a gift. Discipleship is our "good and reasonable service" as we follow after Christ and learn to walk in His ways, growing in His grace and Spiritual maturity.

It's just suggestive to do those things, right? Sorry, the Bible does not call such things as suggestions but He actually calls them commands.

Yes, we do have commands as His disciples who follow after Him.

Commands are not optional. You have to do them. They are a part of the faith.

What we do does not earn us salvation. I really wish you would understand that. Salvation was paid for by the blood of Christ. Salvation is a gift, entirely unearned or unmerited by us.

Disobeying God's commands can lead to a loss of salvation. Just read Matthew 5:28-30, Matthew 6:15, 1 John 3:15, etc.

Disobeying God's commands as a saved, born again believer can lead to a loss of heavenly rewards and chastisement from God in this life. (God chastises His children).

Unbelief (not doing the will of the Father) is what causes people to never be saved.

Christ is the only Way of salvation, the only hope of eternal life is in Him.
 
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PeaceByJesus

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There was a guy in Pauls church in the unbelievable,sin- filled city of Corinth.He was a Believer or he would not have been in Paul’s Church.That fact is never questioned in his sordid tale.His sin was so wicked they didn’t even have a name for it.He was having sex with his own mother.Some say stepmother ,whatever, I think the point is made.This man did not lose his Salvation.He was turned over to Satan so that his flesh would be destroyed,in order to save his spirit.He was thrown out of the church.His escapades were well known to the entire town and that is where God drew the line....He was ready to kill him,,take him home prematurely..
Sorry, this simply will not do, but is a gross distortion of the text and the word of God. No, God does not basically recompense (Heaven is not a punishment, nor is it obtained by sinning) such cognizant (even the heathen knew it was reprehensible) willful (this is not something he just slipped into like bit of envy) impenitent sinning (it was continuous, unrepentant) by taking him to Heaven!

The only thing Scripture promises to those who practice such is exclusion from the kingdom of God, as shown, thus leaving only one other place. To their eternal horror.

Instead of the text saying, "To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so this saved spirit may receive more rewards in the day of the Lord Jesus," instead it teaches that he was delivered unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh so that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. (1 Corinthians 5:5)

And,

But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world. (1 Corinthians 11:32)

For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death. (2 Corinthians 7:10)


The incestuous man was headed to Hell, and thus in order to bring the man to repentance, then he was delivered over to the destroyer devil, who (on his leash, as God allowed) had afflicted Job, supposing he would deny his God (likely by suicide), and in this case I am sure he wanted another damned trophy for himself. And 1 Corinthians 3:17 states, "If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are."

However, this chastisement worked its purpose of Godly salvific contrition - this being consistent with saving faith - both for him and the Corinthian church which had tolerated this, and who were thus told,

Sufficient to such a man is this punishment, which was inflicted of many. So that contrariwise ye ought rather to forgive him, and comfort him, lest perhaps such a one should be swallowed up with overmuch sorrow. (2 Corinthians 2:6-7)


And this is not teaching the opposite extreme of "no Christian who sins goes to Heaven" or variations I have already responded to, by God's grace.
 
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Bible Highlighter

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As with the OP, this is a loaded question which needs clarification. By "unrepentant" do you mean they knowingly committed these sins in the past, and were conscious of doing so and convicted of them yet never repented of such which Godly sorrow effects, and thus would knowingly willfully do so again, or even are doing so?

Or they did do such and did not realize it (for one, deceit is not always apparent, nor do we always recognize hypocrisy ourselves) or perhaps forgot about it (not in hardness of heart) before they realized guilt (do you remember every violation of what God commands, which can include civil laws?), but had a contrite heart that did not want to sin.

Or they are even struggling with a habitual sin, including world affections, yearning to find victory over it in the fear of God?

In the first case i believe the answer is they are presently headed to Hell, since this cognizant impenitence is inconsistent with saving faith and the contrite heart and holy life it effects.

And that God gives space to repent (Rv. 2:21) and works to bring his own to that place, (1Co. 11:32) and in which we can be instruments. (1Co. 5)

I believe King David somehow anesthetized his conscience regarding his own conduct during the time his great sins - and which ignorance is not the same as mere being unaware - but the moment he was convicted of his sins then he repented out of Godly sorrow.

And Christian faith is that of holding faith, and a good conscience, versus putting both away: "Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck." (1 Timothy 1:19)

(Note that there is also such a thing as a believer being so scrupulous that that they constantly see themselves as sinful, and with the devil working to convince them they are lost and might as well live as such. If you doubt me, read the tremendous back and forth struggle of John Bunyan in regard to assurance, which at length he obtained.)

As to the 2nd and 3rd, I see in Scripture that such are saved who have sins of ignorance or perhaps forgot about it, or were struggling with a besetting sin, but who have contrite heart that did not want to sin, and thus repent and ask God for forgiveness for sins they are convicted of, or would do so if they were.

And i am sure there are multitudes of sins we have committed that we are not aware of and never confessed every time we did so, but if we are not repentant in heart over them in general (and thus would confess them to God if we were realized them) then God will chasten us in order to deal with them.

For this is consistent with true faith, which is not rebellion but neither does it mean one must attain perfection of character, having victory over everything that in unholy in him, and thus never sin, though this is out of weakness, not willful knowingly impenitently sinning. I do not see this sinlessness in the 11 disciples of Christ whose names were written in heaven, (Luke 10:20) or in Peter or Paul.

Instead, it is not being sinless that obtains eternal life with God, but repentant faith, (Acts 3:19) the faith which effects obedience, includes repentance when convicted of doing so, and
which "the Lord is nigh unto them that are of a broken heart; and saveth such as be of a contrite spirit" (Psalms 34:18) refers to.

Thus the reason the obedient (as described) are saved is because they are of true faith, manifested by obedience thru the Spirit, not because they have become perfect in character, while the reason the obedient are damned is because they are not of faith, not because they are not as good as believers (indeed, some may have more light and character and be better than some ignorant believers of weak character).

But relative to light and grace given (which the Righteous Judge does take into account) I largely basically agree with how J. C. RYLE - 1816-1900 describes this faith of the regenerate in "Are you born again?"

"Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin;" and again, "Whosoever is born of God sinneth not." - 1John 3:9; 5:18.

A man born again, or regenerate, does not commit sin as a habit. He no longer sins with his heart and will and whole inclination, as an unregenerate man does. There was probably a time when he did not think whether his actions were sinful or not, and never felt grieved after doing evil. There was no quarrel between him and sin; they were friends. Now he hates sin, flees from it, fights against it, counts it his greatest plague, groans under the burden of its presence, mourns when he falls under its influence, and longs to be delivered from it altogether. In one word, sin no longer pleases him, nor is even a matter of indifference; it has become the abominable thing which he hates. He cannot prevent its dwelling within him. If he said he had no sin, there would be no truth in him (1 John 1:8). But he can say that he cordially abhors it, and the great desire of his soul is not to commit sin at all. He cannot prevent bad thoughts arising within him, and short-comings, omissions, and defects appearing, both in his words and actions. He knew, as James says, that "In many things we offend all" (James 3:2). But he can say truly, and as in the sight of God, that things are a daily grief and sorrow to him, and that his whole nature does not consent unto them.


That you even ask me this evidences that you have not read the few posts (as here) I made on this thread, and even the one to you in which i said

"this saving justifying faith, is a faith which effects obedience by the Spirit in word and in deed, in heart and in life, whereby "the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit, (Romans 8:4) insofar as we do.."


And to Kenny'sID:

Conversely, to practice unrighteousness, versus characteristic obedience by the Spirit who enables and motivates it (thus only God really deserves any credit) testifies to unbelief, thus having no covering for sin, leaving such damned, either never having come to faith or having an "an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God," (Hebrews 3:12) or via a false gospel. (Galatians 5:1-5)

In short, the answer to your question is NO.

This also needs clarification. Do you mean unrepentant, unconfessed known sin by impenitent "believers" and thus would knowingly willfully do so again, or even are doing so as in the first category i described in response to #1? Then the answer is already given there (forfeiting what faith obtained, if they were believers once).

For those of true repentant faith then there sins will not send them to Hell, for these are of faith, thus they characteristically practice righteousness, and repent when convicted of not doing so, and in essences are repentant of sins of ignorance.

And since the basis for their justification is not being sinless, but faith which purifies the heart (Acts 15:9) and is counted for righteousness, then while repentant confessing of sin is consistent with that faith, yet sins of ignorance, and imperfection of character is not going to damn them if they are of repentant faith.

And if the condition for justification is sinlessness, and needing to confess every sin you have, or else be damned, then so will having sinful character defects.

Yet the mature man of God means seeking to be as Christ in all aspects of character, which Paul yearned for personally, looking forward to the day when "this corruptible must put on incorruption," (1 Corinthians 15:53) "Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself," (Philippians 3:21) while seeking to presently be as much as a resurrected believer as he could be, which is what I these expressing:

Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. (Philippians 3:12) I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. (Philippians 3:14)

And i sadly have a l o n g way to go in that.

I think I just answered that with my last remark (made before I read this). However, 2 Peter 1 does tell us how we can becoem mature enough that we will never fall. Not there yet myself, sadly.

Because it seemed you might be confusing the effect of faith (holiness, works) with the actual cause of justification (faith which effects works) and which is consistent with Catholic teaching in which the effect of regeneration holiness is what formally justifies a person, and which means he must have this condition (which becomes not simply being forgiven but perfection of character) to enter Heaven, thus necessitating the invention of RC purgatory, which my comments addressed.

Here James 2 if often invoked as regard works justifying, but which they justify the believer as being one of saving faith, if it is by works that God imputes righteousness (versus effectual faith which results in practical righteousness) - which is what Paul is dealing with in Romans 4 - then James is contradicting both Moses (Genesis 15:6) and Paul.

Yet Paul also teaches that it is those of obedient faith which shall be justified. (Romans 2:13)

Hope this helps, if not infallible.

I think we agree on much, but I still have a huge problem with your idea that believers do not overcome sin in this life even though in your book they have to be fruitful and live holy in this life (Whatever that means). To me, if one is sinning on occasion in their life (with no intention in doing so), how then are they living holy? For if the Bible teaches that we can overcome sin in this life (and it does), then to teach that we will sin even on rare occasion our whole lives is to admit defeat to sin. It is still a justification of evil just as much as those who are trying to justify a lot of evil. For a wife is not going to keep forgiving her husband if he just keeps paying lip service to her that he is sorry and he really did not intend to cheat on her. Even if he cheated on her once every ten years. It would still be enough to damage the marriage beyond repair. True healing is when a person stops sinning. A person cannot have one foot in God's Kingdom and one foot in the devil's kingdom. There must be loyalty from a servant of the King. Yes, believers can struggle with sin in their early walk with God and they can falter on rare occasions. But to imply that we cannot overcome sin in this life is a big problem for me. So I am still off put by your saying here. I do not find it to be what the Bible teaches. For God's Word says we can overcome sin.

See this thread here.

Another thing I want to clarify with you is:

If a believer looks upon a woman in lust and they did not intend to do so, are they still saved while they look upon that woman in lust? Or do they need to get forgiven by confessing such a sin?
 
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Sorry, this simply will not do, but is a gross distortion of the text and the word of God. No, God does not basically recompense (Heaven is not a punishment, nor is it obtained by sinning) such cognizant (even the heathen knew it was reprehensible) willful (this is not something he just slipped into like bit of envy) impenitent sinning (it was continuous, unrepentant) by taking him to Heaven!

The only thing Scripture promises to those who practice such is exclusion from the kingdom of God, as shown, thus leaving only one other place. To their eternal horror.

Instead of the text saying, "To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so this saved spirit may receive more rewards in the day of the Lord Jesus," instead it teaches that he was delivered unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh so that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. (1 Corinthians 5:5)

And,

But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world. (1 Corinthians 11:32)

For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death. (2 Corinthians 7:10)


The incestuous man was headed to Hell, and thus in order to bring the man to repentance, then he was delivered over to the destroyer devil, who (on his leash, as God allowed) had afflicted Job, supposing he would deny his God (likely by suicide), and in this case I am sure he wanted another damned trophy for himself. And 1 Corinthians 3:17 states, "If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are."

However, this chastisement worked its purpose of Godly salvific contrition - this being consistent with saving faith - both for him and the Corinthian church which had tolerated this, and who were thus told,

Sufficient to such a man is this punishment, which was inflicted of many. So that contrariwise ye ought rather to forgive him, and comfort him, lest perhaps such a one should be swallowed up with overmuch sorrow. (2 Corinthians 2:6-7)


And this is not teaching the opposite extreme of "no Christian who sins goes to Heaven" or variations I have already responded to, by God's grace.




Please show me the “gross distortion”
 
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SBC

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Don't understand your post.

Just saying;
Rev 13:8
The Lamb; ie Jesus; was slain, during; the time the foundation of the earth was being created, before mankind was created.

Isa 14: 12,13,14,
Lucifer; during the time of the creation of the earth, thought in his heart, that he could rise above God;
Making Lucifer the First Liar ~
Making Lucifer the First Murderer ~

Ie.
No one can rise above God....the Lie
Anyone speaking or thinking against the Word of God is a murderer, that kills the Word of God.

The Word of God, later revealed, by the Name Jesus, has always been the Word of God, whether or not His Name was Known.

The Word of God is First and Before ALL things, ie. Nothing existed without the Word of God .... ie All things were Spoken By Gods Word, that they would Appear.....also by the Power of God, whose Name is Christ.
1 Cor 2: 24

Jesus being revealed on earth, and while on earth revealed as the Christ; IS the same,
Everlasting Word of God, regardless of when man Knows His Name....

He is the Same Who Saved the souls of men in the OT, who believed in His Word.

NT men, learned His Name, and SAW Him being crucified. Yet He was murdered from before mankind was created.

Men seeing him in the likeness as a man, was a fulfillment of a promise God gave to man, who had appealed to God, to let them SEE God. It was showing men, what had already happened, TO; teach the LOST, ie the Jews who had fallen away from following after their "fathers", Abraham, Isaac & Jacob....while also introducing Gentiles into the fold of Hearing and Learing About the Word of God, that they also might trust and believe.

God Bless,
SBC
 
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SBC

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For MANKIND ~
Everything hinges on what a man can DO, to CAUSE his Corrupt Flesh Body, to become Acceptable to God;
SO THAT, the MAN, can FOREVER BE ALIVE WiTH GOD.

THE ONLY thing MAN CAN DO ~ IS:
Hear ~ Believe ~ Trust, the Word of God!
AND TELL HIM!!

A mans REASONABLE SERVICE TO GOD....
IS a man first believing HIS OWN BODY IS CORRUPT, and it is the individual MAN HIMSELF, who must decide that....AND decide IF HE chooses to DO something about it.

THE Word of God, notifies the man of WHAT TO DO, and HOW to DO IT.

It ALL HINGES on the individuals CHOICE to
Hear, Believe, Trust....GOD.

The WHAT....is the man choosing TO:
Rom 12:1

For the man to present HIS OWN BODY, as a LIVING SACRIFICE, holy and acceptable TO GOD.

THAT IS: mankinds REASONABLE SERVICE TO GOD.

THAT IS: Gods desire for ANY man to fulfill.

Thereafter ~ God Himself, does ALL of the Work WITHIN the man.
The SAME, has been from the beginning of mankind.

THE OP ~ WORKS, PART of Salvation?
No.

Salvation IS strictly A man declaring in his own heart; He:
BELIEVES and TRUSTS God;
And chooses to SUBMIT TO the Word of God.

That IS; the Salvation God has provided for ALL....and WHEN A MAN, accepts claiming His own Salvation....it is a irrevocable, Forever Gift from God.

MUST A MAN DO WORKS, thereafter? No.
CAN A MAN DO WORKS, thereafter? Yes.

The KEY is a MAN CAN ONLY DO WORKS, thereafter. Meaning: A man WITHOUT having accepted Salvation; can DO NOTHING to PLEASE GOD. And a man WHO HAS accepted SALVATION, has already Pleased God.

ANY WORKS thereafter that a man DOES DO,
IS two FOLD;
1) Works a man DOES that ALSO pleases God.....Glorifies His Name....IN HEAVEN,
AND before the eyes of natural men on earth.
2) Works a man DOES that Glorifies Gods Name on earth, IS REWARDED, BY GOD.
Rewards, given specifically TO THAT MAN.

So NO, Works are NOT PART of a mans Salvation.....However a man can NOT DO Works FOR GODS GLORY, until a man HAS received Salvation.

God Bless,
SBC
 
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SBC

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HOW TO DO WORKS, TO Glorify Gods Name?

The New Testament IS FULL of examples;
Jesus TAUGHT His Jewish Disciples, HOW.
Teaching them WHAT THINGS, they could DO to let other men SEE, that is pleasing to God.

Individual examples were given, and those learning, would be corrected and reminded as they were being taught.

Behave IN THIS MANNER...
Don't Behave IN THAT MANNER....

THE GRAVE MISUNDERSTANDING OF CHRISTIANS....IS:

1)
THE NT, did not exist. It was JEWS, Jesus' chosen Disciples, teaching JEWS, about receiving a NEW permanent Salvation.
VIA, the BLOOD OF JESUS, superseding the
Temporary BLOOD of Animals.
2)
It was JEWS Teaching JEWS, in a MANNER, that was FAMILIAR to JEWS.
3)
WHAT WAS familiar to JEWS?
Jewish LAW.
4)
What WAS the paramount basis of Jewish LAW?
EVERY VIOLATION OF THE Jewish LAW....
WAS A SIN.
5)
THUS ~ While teaching Jews about this permanent Salvation ~ and HOW TO DO WORKS ~
ANY behavior THAT WAS being corrected as NOT Glorifying to God...was Accompanied,
With .... what was FAMILIAR TO THEM...
Meaning...it WAS A SIN...AS per their Jewish LAW...EVERYTHING NOT Pleasing to God WAS A SIN.
6)
So we have MEN, ie Gentiles, learning ALSO,
About WORKS that ARE Pleasing to God...
By the history, and writing, and safeguarding, and distribution of the NT.
7)
The WHAT and HOW of the WORKS absolutely IS a benefit for a Gentile to hear and learn and hopefully OPT TO DO....
8)
AND IF HE DOESN"T?
It is a LOSS of rewards to the Gentile man,
Just like with a Jewish man who accepted his Salvation.
9)
AND IF A GENTILE MAN'S WORKS / BEHAVIOR is NOT PLEASING to GOD....

IS IT A SIN?

Christians REPEATEDLY CLAIM IT IS....

WHY?

WHY DO GENTILE MEN, WHO HAVE ACCEPTED THEIR PERMANENT SALVATION...
ACCEPTED GODS FORGIVENESS...
THEN PRETEND THEY ARE SUBJECT TO JEWISH LAWS?

WHY?

Are Gentile men, calling a poor behavior, A SIN, which is based in Jewish Law?

WHEN?

It was the behavior of HOW TO DO acceptable WORKS to Glorify God, IS the INTENT of the NEW TESTAMENT EAMPLES?

There WAS NO INTENT for a Gentile to BECOME SUBJECT TO Jewish Law, and call everything a JEW called a SIN (according to their LAW), a SIN.

A GENTILE was NEVER SUBJECT TO Jewish LAW.

So WHY, do Gentiles, PRETEND what applied to Jewish men, in the NT, ALSO APPLY TO THEM?

Gentiles ARE SUPPOSED to learn from the JEWS....without pretending they are subject to JEWISH LAW.

Jesus summed UP what IS ALL the LAWS suitable for ANY MAN....

1) Above ALL THINGS....Love the Lord your God with ALL your Heart, body, soul, spirit.
2) Treat other men....regardless of who they are, with love, as you would treat yourself.

Some Jews accepted this...some didn't...and Today, MOST Jews have fallen back into being SUBJECT to their religious JEWISH LAWS, rejecting Jesus as their Messiah, and thus still showing God their Belief, by being obedient to His Word, BY being obedient to their Jewish Laws.

This is NOT the case for a Gentile ~
Who HAS accepted JESUS as the JEWISH MESSIAH, and ACCEPTED Gods FORGIVENESS and SAVING GRACE.

A Gentile has been FORGIVEN for their DISBELIEF in God.
THAT WAS their SIN, and it has BEEN FORGIVEN.

So again WHY are Gentiles WHO HAVE elected to RECEIVE Gods FORGIVENESS....

STILL CLAIMING THEY SIN AGAINST GOD...
According to Jewish Law?

Can ANYONE WHO....claims THEY have become SAVED and BORN AGAIN....

EXPLAIN WHY they CONTINUE to claim THEY STILL COMMIT SIN?

God Bless,
SBC
 
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SBC

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Justified BY WORKS?

Of course a man IS JUSTIFIED by Works.

However Lest you ignore....a man is FIRST Justified BY submitting HIS BODY as a living sacrifice to God....

THAT Justifies the mans BODY to BE redeemed.

All WORKS the man does to Glorify God, IS ALSO accounted as JUSTIFIED, for that man to RECEIVE rewards FOR ANY Works he DID to Glorify God.

Works WITHOUT FAITH is DEAD?

Absolutely.
Faith IS NOT a mans doing.
Belief IS a mans doing.
Faith IS a GIFT from God, FOR a man BELIEVING.

ANY man, who DOES WORKS, that other men can SEE, and say, what a kind thing to do, what a generous thing to do.....
MEANS NOTHING to GOD....UNTIL...
The man has SUBMITTED HIS LIFE TO GOD;
And the man IS receiving FAITH FROM GOD;
And the man IS DO such kind and generous WORKS, "FOR" Gods Glory.

THEN, does God take NOTICE of the mans WORKS, and JUSTIFIES those WORKS, to be slated for THAT man to receive REWARDS FROM God.

IOW ~ No man, can PLEASE God with WORKS, without Faith from God, and without Works that Glorifies God.

God Bless,
SBC
 
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SBC

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Am I the only one who ignores super long posts?

Nope!

Anytime discussing Spiritual things -
Several factors come into play...

Scripture, which is simply KNOWLEDGE revealed...

Which some men simply believe is All truth, and some men want to teach, which parts they believe ARE TRUE, and which parts they believe ARE NOT TRUE.

And that leads into the DEBATE, which IS the Understanding of Scripture.

Umpteen philosophers FOR eons have decided what Scripture MEANS, and MEN FOR eons have decided WHICH philosophical teaching "makes the most sense to their own MINDS".

The TRUTH is the Written Word is KNOWLEDGE, and ONLY God Himself VIA His Spirit to an individuals spirit, reveals the UNDERSTANDING OF the KNOWLEDGE of Scripture.

The LOGICAL ciphering of the MIND, is NOT the FIRST to KNOW Gods Understanding....
The mans spirit in his Heart, is the FIRST to KNOW, Gods Understanding of Scripture...
And it is the mans JOB, to supersede his Logical Mind, with what God reveals to the mans spirit in his heart.

The LONG posts, are trying to reveal, the understanding, OF the KNOWLEDGE.....
And yep, understanding is always LONG and boring, in an era, when we expect everything to be quick, simple, and effective, with little effort.

And to remember....
Some are giving you "understanding" ie explanations FROM their LOGICAL MIND, that you will TRUST THEM....and others FROM THEIR HEART as God has given to THEM, with the HOPE you also will SEEK Gods Understanding be given you FROM Him, thus your TRUST being in NO ONE but Him.

God Bless,
SBC
 
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SBC

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"Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin;" and again, "Whosoever is born of God sinneth not." - 1John 3:9; 5:18.


TRUE!

A man born again, or regenerate, does not commit sin as a habit.

HUH? You quote a Scrpture that reveals a TRUTH......

THEN give a comment that SUPERSEDES the TRUTH!

Why? Why is the TRUTH NOT sufficient?
Why? Why are you teaching, a man born of God, continues to SIN?

The Scriptures you just quoted say the COMPLETE OPPOSITE.

Please explain your teaching of superseding Scripture. Thanks.

God Bless,
SBC
 
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Please show me the “gross distortion”
I am not responsible for your inability to see that chastisement of a gross willful impenitent sinner so that he may have Godly salvific repentance and be saved is not the same as giving him an early ticket to Heaven because of gross willful impenitent sinning, which is your gross distortion.
 
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As with the OP, this is a loaded question which needs clarification. By "unrepentant" do you mean they knowingly committed these sins in the past, and were conscious of doing so and convicted of them yet never repented of such which Godly sorrow effects, and thus would knowingly willfully do so again, or even are doing so?

Or they did do such and did not realize it (for one, deceit is not always apparent, nor do we always recognize hypocrisy ourselves) or perhaps forgot about it (not in hardness of heart) before they realized guilt (do you remember every violation of what God commands, which can include civil laws?), but had a contrite heart that did not want to sin.

Or they are even struggling with a habitual sin, including world affections, yearning to find victory over it in the fear of God?

In the first case i believe the answer is they are presently headed to Hell, since this cognizant impenitence is inconsistent with saving faith and the contrite heart and holy life it effects.

God is the One who decides who lives and dies. So if a believer does die in unrepentant sin it is a judgment against them. They could have even once been in the fear of the Lord and walking right with God but there are times when a believer can change allegiances and do high handed sins that are not acceptable to Him. If not, then there would be no fear of God for believers. Ananais and Sapphire is an example of two believers who were once right with God but then they were later condemned because of their sin. I mean, history repeats itself. Adam had a once right relationship with God and yet when he sinned he was separated spiritually from God. He needed to be renewed by the Lord.

So I would say that if anyone dies in unrepentant sin, they are not saved. There is no case where a believer can die in unrepentant serious sin and be saved because that would mean God would have to agree with sin. However, such a thing is not possible because God is holy and just and good.

You said:
And that God gives space to repent (Rv. 2:21) and works to bring his own to that place, (1Co. 11:32) and in which we can be instruments. (1Co. 5)

Sometimes God gives men space to repent. There are times this is not the case like with Ananais and Sapphire. There are also unforgivable sins, as well. Committing suicide and staying dead, worshiping the beast, rejecting Jesus as one's Savior after they accepted and lived for him for a while, and speaking bad words against the Holy Ghost.

You said:
I believe King David somehow anesthetized his conscience regarding his own conduct during the time his great sins - and which ignorance is not the same as mere being unaware - but the moment he was convicted of his sins then he repented out of Godly sorrow.

But was David saved during his time of murder and adultery?
I would say... "no." David in that moment was not saved.
He later became restored back to the Lord and became saved again by his repentance in Psalms 51.

You said:
And Christian faith is that of holding faith, and a good conscience, versus putting both away: "Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck." (1 Timothy 1:19)

Yes, believers can shipwreck their faith. I believe this is apostasy or rejecting Jesus as one's Savior after they accepted Him and walked with Him for a while (Kind of like Judas).

You said:
(Note that there is also such a thing as a believer being so scrupulous that that they constantly see themselves as sinful, and with the devil working to convince them they are lost and might as well live as such. If you doubt me, read the tremendous back and forth struggle of John Bunyan in regard to assurance, which at length he obtained.)

I don't need to see such a thing. I know that such a thing can happen. A person in this case is simply not repenting and submitting to the Lord properly. They are not applying the methods in God's Word to overcome sin. So anyways, are now saying that as long as a person is not excessively living in sin and or they are striving to overcome sin and they do not intend to sin that they can have assurance of being saved even while they are in sin? I don't think it works like that. If a person confesses, they are forgiven. If they sin again, they are not forgiven. It is that simple. The same is true like every other relationship we have. If we sin against our spouse, we have to seek forgiveness with them on that in order to be forgiven.

You said:
As to the 2nd and 3rd, I see in Scripture that such are saved who have sins of ignorance or perhaps forgot about it, or were struggling with a besetting sin, but who have contrite heart that did not want to sin, and thus repent and ask God for forgiveness for sins they are convicted of, or would do so if they were.

And i am sure there are multitudes of sins we have committed that we are not aware of and never confessed every time we did so, but if we are not repentant in heart over them in general (and thus would confess them to God if we were realized them) then God will chasten us in order to deal with them.

For this is consistent with true faith, which is not rebellion but neither does it mean one must attain perfection of character, having victory over everything that in unholy in him, and thus never sin, though this is out of weakness, not willful knowingly impenitently sinning. I do not see this sinlessness in the 11 disciples of Christ whose names were written in heaven, (Luke 10:20) or in Peter or Paul.

The 144,000 were found without fault before the throne of God in Revelation 14:3-5.
Enoch was translated where he did not see death because he walked with God.
Surely Enoch was not translated because God liked the fact that He had a mere belief on Him.
It was Enoch's walk with the Lord that God liked in Enoch.
He was truly dedicated to the Lord.

You said:
Instead, it is not being sinless that obtains eternal life with God, but repentant faith, (Acts 3:19) the faith which effects obedience, includes repentance when convicted of doing so, and
which "the Lord is nigh unto them that are of a broken heart; and saveth such as be of a contrite spirit" (Psalms 34:18) refers to.

Yes, a broken heart and a contrite spirit is what God requires and repentance. A person is not saved by Works Alone Salvationism. Works follows God's saving grace; And God's saving grace is defined as a person who ask Jesus to forgive them of their sins and they believe that He died and was risen on their behalf. But not all sin is the same. This is the error of many. 1 John 5:16-17 says there is a sin that leads to death and there is a sin that does not lead unto death. In context, 1 John 5 is talking about confessed sin and how if other believers are praying for a believer who is struggling with sin (and who is confessing his their sins), they will help give this believer new life so as to overcome their sin. Other sins that do not lead unto death would be not being baptized in this life. For Peter says that baptism does not save us for the putting away of the "filth of the flesh." "Filth of the flesh" is a reference to "sin" within Scripture. For elsewhere 2 Corinthians 7:1 says we are to cleanse ourselves from all "filthiness of the flesh" and spirit perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

You said:
Thus the reason the obedient (as described) are saved is because they are of true faith, manifested by obedience thru the Spirit, not because they have become perfect in character, while the reason the obedient are damned is because they are not of faith, not because they are not as good as believers (indeed, some may have more light and character and be better than some ignorant believers of weak character).

We are to perfect holiness in the fear of God cleansing ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit. We need to be on that path. However, not having reached a state of Sinless Perfection does not mean one is not saved. To define "Sinless Perfection": It is having reached a state whereby someone has put away even minor transgressions or faults out of their life. I do not believe "Sinless Perfection" deals solely with putting away sins that lead unto death (Which is a breaking of God's moral law of love like loving God and loving your neighbor: Note: Loving your neighbor would include helping the poor, not murdering, not committing adultery, not stealing, and not lying, etc.).

You said:
But relative to light and grace given (which the Righteous Judge does take into account) I largely basically agree with how J. C. RYLE - 1816-1900 describes this faith of the regenerate in "Are you born again?"

"Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin;" and again, "Whosoever is born of God sinneth not." - 1John 3:9; 5:18.

A man born again, or regenerate, does not commit sin as a habit. He no longer sins with his heart and will and whole inclination, as an unregenerate man does. There was probably a time when he did not think whether his actions were sinful or not, and never felt grieved after doing evil. There was no quarrel between him and sin; they were friends. Now he hates sin, flees from it, fights against it, counts it his greatest plague, groans under the burden of its presence, mourns when he falls under its influence, and longs to be delivered from it altogether. In one word, sin no longer pleases him, nor is even a matter of indifference; it has become the abominable thing which he hates. He cannot prevent its dwelling within him. If he said he had no sin, there would be no truth in him (1 John 1:8). But he can say that he cordially abhors it, and the great desire of his soul is not to commit sin at all. He cannot prevent bad thoughts arising within him, and short-comings, omissions, and defects appearing, both in his words and actions. He knew, as James says, that "In many things we offend all" (James 3:2). But he can say truly, and as in the sight of God, that things are a daily grief and sorrow to him, and that his whole nature does not consent unto them.

I believe the same way as "LoveofTruth" in regards to 1 John 3:9.

Here is what he says about this verse in this thread here:

If you commit sin are you still of God?
 
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