Does the Bible teach works must follow God's grace as a part of our salvation?

[Bible Highlighter]

But I've had quite my fill...

If you are saying that you had your fill of discussing or debating God's Word: Well, we are different then. For me it is always a pleasure to discuss or debate God's Word. For me, debating God's Word always gets me in the Word more and I see new things every day. So praise be unto the Lord for His Word (Which is good). For it is a light unto my path.

Anyways, may God's love shine upon you today (even though we disagree on God's Word).

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

Then Jesus is our Savior nor God. Both are incorrect. You've tried to show Jesus as a sinner. Jesus didn't inherit a sin nature because His Father is God and not some man.

I did not try and show Jesus as a sinner... I was proving that the 613 ordinances were not a measure of sin... merely civil and religious laws that were done away with at the cross.

If Jesus could not sin then how was He tempted in all ways like we are? Temptation means nothing if there is no chance of succumbing to it... how does Jesus understand our experience unless He had the same.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Honestly, that question is beyond absurd!

And I have never heard anyone who truly understands the Gospel and "rests" in Christ ever even suggest such a thing.

It always seems to be those who are attempting to bring saved and born again believers who are trusting fully in Christ for salvation, back under the Law or some kind of condemnation. So, I suppose they just feel they need to bring up the most horrific scenario they can imagine to throw at those who do have security in Christ.

By the way, as God has created us human beings with a conscience, most people could never imagine doing such an atrocious thing before they are saved and truly understand the depths of sin and the unfathomable price paid for their sin by the precious blood of Christ, and yet you would suggest that a saved believer's reaction to being saved by God's grace and mercy is just going to be a desire to "mow down a crowd with a sub machine gun"....

Bizarre!

I had a believer in Christ admit to me in person that they would still be saved even if they were to mow down a crowd with a sub machine. Granted, they had no intention of doing such a thing. They simply admitted to me that they would be still saved if they did that. That is why I asked her the question to see if she believes the same thing. The fact that she is not answering me on this does not make me think well of her belief. Granted, she may not believe as this other guy (I talked with) does, but why would one want to hide the truth on such a thing? Anyways, there are different levels of OSAS and or faith only (no works) type beliefs. I believe all of them turn God's grace into a license to sin on some level and they are a violation of God's goodness or basic morality.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I did not try and show Jesus as a sinner... I was proving that the 613 ordinances were not a measure of sin... merely civil and religious laws that were done away with at the cross.

If Jesus could not sin then how was He tempted in all ways like we are? Temptation means nothing if there is no chance of succumbing to it... how does Jesus understand our experience unless He had the same.

Christ was not internally tempted by sin but only externally.

Let me illustrate an example for you (to help show you):

Let's say I was walking along the park and a shady looking character opens up his trench coat and says he has some hot watches that he just recently acquired that he would like to sell me. Okay, now it wouldn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that these watches were probably stolen, so I would just tell him,

"No thank you."

Now, in retrospect, I could say that this shady character was tempting me. Yet in no way was I interested at all. So one can say a person was tempted by another without them having no interest in the part of the temptation given.

Hebrews 4:15 - "For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin."

Christ was tempted LIKE as we are. For the word "like" is used to compare something to another (or in making a parallel to something similar). The greek word "κατά" is linked to he Greek word "ταὐτά" in Luke 6:23, which is also transliterated as the word "like".

http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/...gs=G2596&t=KJV
Click on full entry for the reference of Luke 6:23 (i.e. Luk. vi 23.)

So we have to ask the question, if he was tempted as we are, then why did He not sin? Was it because He was a good and perfect person? Was it because He was created as a demi god or an angel? Was it because He had a certain portion of the divinity of God? No, most certainly not. He did not sin because He was God Almighty 100%. He did not sin because He could not be tempted. Yes, he was tempted like we are in the sense that He was in our place. But that was it; For the parallel stops there. For the Scriptures do not say that Christ was tempted EXACTLY like we are. The Bible simply uses the word "like" which can be used to make a comparison of something.

In other words, lets say you ran into that same shady character trying to sell you one of his hot watches that he had try to sell to me and you refused him (with the same line of thinking that he was a crook). Now, later after you told me what happened, I could then say, "Oh yes. I believe I was tempted by the same guy."

Does that mean either of us were tempted? No. Of course not.

Christ was in our place. He was tempted as we were but was without sin because He was God. For we have a God who can be touched with the feelings of our infirmities unlike a high priest back in the Old Testament. He knows how we feel!

For what did Jesus say about adultery? He said, that even if you look upon a woman in lust you have already committed adultery in your heart. Sooooo..... that means that any bad thoughts by Jesus in wanting to think about sinning would have been the same thing as actually sinning.

So is human flesh enough to overcome the Son of God? Ha! I don't think so! God is so much more stronger, powerful, and good than you think He is. For Jesus did not sin because He was God Almighty in the flesh.

In fact, Jesus still has a physical body today that intercedes on our behalf; And He still will never sin ever because He is God. Men are incapable of being perfect. Only God can be perfect. For Jesus said,

"Why do you call me good? There is none good but God."

Jesus is God, so that settles the issue of whether or not He could sin.
For the Scriptures say God cannot be tempted by sin (James 1:13).

 

[amariselle]

I had a believer in Christ admit to me in person that they would still be saved even if they were to mow down a crowd with a sub machine.

Ok, so you had one person say this to you (and I will agree it was not a proper thing to say in any way, shape or form) and now you choose to infer that many others just want to go out and do something horrific like this? Why?

Granted, they had no intention of doing such a thing.

Of course.

They simply admitted to me that they would be still saved if they did that.

Well, I don't know the person who said that to you, but let me assure you, saying something like that is unfathomable to me. I cannot imagine even making light of it in any way. So, I really get confused, and perhaps a bit frustrated, when I hear/read statements like that thrown at people for no apparent reason, other than perhaps to create an argument or stir up emotions. It makes no sense and it is not edifying nor encouraging to anyone.

Why not encourage one another in the faith and think about things that are good and worthy of praise?

That is why I asked her the question to see if she believes the same thing. The fact that she is not answering me on this does not make me think well of her belief. Granted, she may not believe as this other guy (I talked with) does, but why would one want to hide the truth on such a thing?

Perhaps you shouldn't just jump to the conclusion that anyone is being evasive or "hiding" something. Perhaps they felt as I did, that it was an entirely absurd question.

You see, most people who are saved and understand the Gospel do not wish to think of such insanely horrific situations. They understand the wickedness of this world all too well and they are beyond thankful to have been saved and called out of it by Christ Jesus. I know that's how I see it in any case.

Anyways, there are different levels of OSAS and or faith only (no works) type beliefs. I believe all of them turn God's grace into a license to sin on some level and they are a violation of God's goodness or basic morality.

Saved unto good works, I do believe that.

 

[Kenny'sID]

Christians can (doesn't grant permission) and do sin. Christians can't live a lifestyle of sin.

Sorry, tried to have a civil debate with you, but you only wasted my time.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

Christ was not internally tempted by sin but only externally.

Let me illustrate an example for you (to help show you):

Let's say I was walking along the park and a shady looking character opens up his trench coat and says he has some hot watches that he just recently acquired that he would like to sell me. Okay, now it wouldn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that these watches were probably stolen, so I would just tell him,

"No thank you."

Now, in retrospect, I could say that this shady character was tempting me. Yet in no way was I interested at all. So one can say a person was tempted by another without them having no interest in the part of the temptation given.

Hebrews 4:15 - "For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin."

Christ was tempted LIKE as we are. For the word "like" is used to compare something to another (or in making a parallel to something similar). The greek word "κατά" is linked to he Greek word "ταὐτά" in Luke 6:23, which is also transliterated as the word "like".

http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/...gs=G2596&t=KJV
Click on full entry for the reference of Luke 6:23 (i.e. Luk. vi 23.)

So we have to ask the question, if he was tempted as we are, then why did He not sin? Was it because He was a good and perfect person? Was it because He was created as a demi god or an angel? Was it because He had a certain portion of the divinity of God? No, most certainly not. He did not sin because He was God Almighty 100%. He did not sin because He could not be tempted. Yes, he was tempted like we are in the sense that He was in our place. But that was it; For the parallel stops there. For the Scriptures do not say that Christ was tempted EXACTLY like we are. The Bible simply uses the word "like" which can be used to make a comparison of something.

In other words, lets say you ran into that same shady character trying to sell you one of his hot watches that he had try to sell to me and you refused him (with the same line of thinking that he was a crook). Now, later after you told me what happened, I could then say, "Oh yes. I believe I was tempted by the same guy."

Does that mean either of us were tempted? No. Of course not.

Christ was in our place. He was tempted as we were but was without sin because He was God. For we have a God who can be touched with the feelings of our infirmities unlike a high priest back in the Old Testament. He knows how we feel!

For what did Jesus say about adultery? He said, that even if you look upon a woman in lust you have already committed adultery in your heart. Sooooo..... that means that any bad thoughts by Jesus in wanting to think about sinning would have been the same thing as actually sinning.

So is human flesh enough to overcome the Son of God? Ha! I don't think so! God is so much more stronger, powerful, and good than you think He is. For Jesus did not sin because He was God Almighty in the flesh.

In fact, Jesus still has a physical body today that intercedes on our behalf; And He still will never sin ever because He is God. Men are incapable of being perfect. Only God can be perfect. For Jesus said,

"Why do you call me good? There is none good but God."

Jesus is God, so that settles the issue of whether or not He could sin.
For the Scriptures say God cannot be tempted by sin (James 1:13).

Believe as you wish...

 

[Blood Bought 1953]

Can Christians under grace be wicked, and still make it to heaven?

Yes

 

[Blood Bought 1953]

Correct me if I am wrong, but your belief appears to be saying it is okay to keep sinning our whole lives as long as we just keep confessing our sins and as long as we do not intend to sin and as long as we are not extremely living in those sins. Granted, I am not negating the fact that God's grace is not there if we do not honestly sin on rare occasion or if we as believers may struggle with sin and need God's grace to overcome such a sin with the help of other believers. We see in the Parable of the Tax Collector that God's grace is there for a person who honestly does falter. But is the Parable of the Tax Collector talking about a person's entire life and walk with God? No. There is no mere paying of lip service to God that is being taught within the Scriptures (Even if we appear to be sinning less and less). This is not what God's Word teaches. See this thread at CF here to learn about how God's people are to overcome sin in this life.

Also, who determines the frequency of how much sin is okay with God as long as we just keep confessing it our whole lives?

In addition, it appears you are taking the OSAS interpretation on 1 John 1:8 that says if we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves in the sense that we are always sinning. Is that what you are saying? For is not 1 John 1:8 talking in the present tense? So are you saying that you have sin because of 1 John 1:8? For it says we deceive ourselves if we say we have no sin.

Do you realize that John says, "sin not" in 1 John 2:1?

Furthermore, what is the difference on a moral level between "practicing sin" vs. believing one will always sin on occasion in this life as being okay as long as we confess it and as long as we do not intend to do such a sin? What sins are acceptable? Can we keep murdering people our whole lives as long as we do not intend to do so and as long as we do so on occasion?

Plus, you are suggesting that we will never stop sinning in this life. How can we be obeying God's commands as a part of 1 John 2:3 if we are also admitting that we will break them a little as a matter of fact?

See, the problem with I have with the belief you are describing to me is that it sounds like one is trying to justify a little bit of evil vs. a lot of evil. As if doing a little evil is any different than doing a lot of evil. For if a person admits they will do evil as a matter of fact, then they are in agreement with the darkness and not the light. A person has to believe they can be reformed.

For even unbelievers can stop in doing certain sins. Ever hear about how alcoholics have overcome the sin of alcoholism by a drug program? But with Jesus, He can do so much more with a believer. That is what you are not getting.



I believe Christians can sin while they are infants in the Lord and they growing in the faith, but in time they will mature and God will teach them to overcome their sin and to walk uprightly by the working of His power within them. For it is the Lord who will help them to overcome their sin.

For have you never heard of people stopping from certain sins automatically after accepting Jesus?

For example: One Christian man told me he stopped smoking after accepting Jesus and he struggled with trying to stop smoking by other ways before accepting Jesus. Hence, why we read in Scripture...

"But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof." (Romans 13:14).



Yes. For God cannot agree with a plan of salvation that would agree with sin because God is holy and good. For if we think that we can sin and still be saved on some level, then that would be turning God's grace into a license to sin. Remember, it only took one sin to separate Adam from God.



Jesus essentially says in Matthew 5;28-30 that if a person were to look upon a woman in lust, their whole body can potentially be cast into hell fire. Jesus is not saying that this person needs to do this a sin a whole lot in order for them to be in danger of hell fire, either.

As for worldly entertainment: I think if a Christian is watching movies like Doctor Strange, or Dead Pool and sees no problem in these things, then they need to check their spiritual pulse with the Lord.
Oh, and yes. I used to be a big Marvel Comics fan and I collected the comics since I was a kid. So I used to love watching the Avengers films. But I have put away watching worldly movies because they are things that are of this world and not of God. One passage that always bothered me (when I used to watch secular movies) was 1 John 2:15-17.

As for lusting for food:
Well, we need food to live physically. Also, I do not see it as wrong to enjoy certain foods that God gave us. The problem arises is when we indulge too much to the point whereby we effect our health and we do not give any of our goods to those who are poor. But the idea for lusting for food? That does not exist in Scripture.



Obeying Christ's commands is something that a person will just naturally do as a part of their life like eating and or sleeping. Preaching the gospel and helping the poor and obeying God's Eternal Moral Laws like not murdering, not stealing, not coveting, etc. will be natural to a believer as a way of life. But doing these things outwardly alone without God's grace or faith is simply not possible. A person is changed on the inside and the Lord does the good work through a believer. It takes time sometimes for a believer to mature in the faith and walk obediently. As for the degree of preaching the gospel and helping the poor? I think God knows a person's heart and life. But Jesus does say we will know false prophets by their fruit. So if a believer is not doing anything for God, then they need to check their spiritual pulse with the Lord. Doing good is the result of the Lord flowing through a believer. For it is God who does the good work through a believer's life.


James 3:2 is saying "offend" in reference to minor faults of one's character and it is not talking about saying something that would condemn their own soul. James says that it can lead to this if one is not careful to guard their own words. The transition starts in verse 5 about the tongue being a fire that can defile us. Also, James's point is not one of disobedience with our tongue as being a normal thing. No, no. Most certainly not. James say this,

10 "Out of the same mouth proceedeth blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not so to be.
11 Doth a fountain send forth at the same place sweet water and bitter?
12 Can the fig tree, my brethren, bear olive berries? either a vine, figs? so can no fountain both yield salt water and fresh." (James 3:10-12).

As for 2 Peter 1:10:
You quote the verse, but you are not believing it in what it says, my friend.
2 Peter 1:10: "Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall."

Do you believe that you will never fall? That is what it says.

Paul says,
"Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God." (2 Corinthians 7:1).

Do you believe we can cleanse ourselves from ALL filthiness of the flesh and spirit (i.e. sin) perfecting holiness in the fear of God?

Am I the only one who ignores super long posts?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Ok, so you had one person say this to you (and I will agree it was not a proper thing to say in any way, shape or form) and now you choose to infer that many others just want to go out and do something horrific like this? Why?

Well, he is not the only one. I have talked with others who believed in a similar way at Theology Online. One particular user called me Wolf and Jason666 (Who believed that way).

Even another poster here had admitted that they can do evil and still be saved.
You can check out my reply to their post here.

This is not anything new. George Sodini was a mass murderer and suicide victim who believed he was saved despite his evil acts. See this aritcle here about him.

Well, I don't know the person who said that to you, but let me assure you, saying something like that is unfathomable to me. I cannot imagine even making light of it in any way. So, I really get confused, and perhaps a bit frustrated, when I hear/read statements like that thrown at people for no apparent reason, other than perhaps to create an argument or stir up emotions. It makes no sense and it is not edifying nor encouraging to anyone.

It is the truth. They really said that and believe that.

Why not encourage one another in the faith and think about things that are good and worthy of praise?

The good is to show folks here of what the Scriptures are really saying. Sometimes an extreme example has to be used to wake people up to what they are believing sometimes. People get in their comfort zones and think everything is okay, when it may not be okay. Remember, it was the luke warm church that was spewed out of Christ's mouth.

Perhaps you shouldn't just jump to the conclusion that anyone is being evasive or "hiding" something. Perhaps they felt as I did, that it was an entirely absurd question.

You see, most people who are saved and understand the Gospel do not wish to think of such insanely horrific situations. They understand the wickedness of this world all too well and they are beyond thankful to have been saved and called out of it by Christ Jesus. I know that's how I see it in any case.

But the Bible speaks of things like this and warns against it. Jude 1:4 is but one example.

Saved unto good works, I do believe that.

So works are necessary as a part of the salvation process?

 

[Blood Bought 1953]

I had a believer in Christ admit to me in person that they would still be saved even if they were to mow down a crowd with a sub machine. Granted, they had no intention of doing such a thing. They simply admitted to me that they would be still saved if they did that. That is why I asked her the question to see if she believes the same thing. The fact that she is not answering me on this does not make me think well of her belief. Granted, she may not believe as this other guy (I talked with) does, but why would one want to hide the truth on such a thing? Anyways, there are different levels of OSAS and or faith only (no works) type beliefs. I believe all of them turn God's grace into a license to sin on some level and they are a violation of God's goodness or basic morality.

Anyways, there are different levels of OSAS and or faith only (no works) type beliefs. I believe all of them turn God's grace into a license to sin on some level and they are a violation of God's goodness or basic morality.

You would be wrong,iam glad “goodness” and “morality” are not the criteria for Salvation. Perfection is the stAndard.we can’t do it....we can never be worthy,I thank my God I am “made” worthy by the Shed Blood. God bless

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Am I the only one who ignores super long posts?

I have written posts that were way longer. IMO (In my opinion): - It is not the length of the posts that deters a person it is the content. Personally, I will not read super long posts that talk about how we are to go back to Old Law of Moses as a part of our faith (like how we should keep the Saturday Sabbath, the dietary laws, etc.) because I see it as unprofitable to debate such a thing. Anyways, if the content of the post is interesting to a person, the length is not an issue for most people (Unless of course that person has "attention deficit disorder" or something). In this case, I think you simply do not like the content of my post, so you are not going to read it. I totally understand and get that. I have done the same with other people's posts that are really long but yet I disagreed with them strongly in what they were saying.

In any event, I am wishing you nothing but good things to you in Christ Jesus.
May you have a blessed day today;
And may you please be well.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Anyways, there are different levels of OSAS and or faith only (no works) type beliefs. I believe all of them turn God's grace into a license to sin on some level and they are a violation of God's goodness or basic morality.

You would be wrong,iam glad “goodness” and “morality” are not the criteria for Salvation.

Goodness and Morality is not the Standard of our Salvation?
I beg to differ. After we are saved by God's grace, holiness and or works is our Sanctifcation that is a part of the salvation process within the faith.
For Scripture says,

“Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." (James 2:24).
"Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.” (James 2:17-18).
"They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16).
"If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing, "
(1 Timothy 6:3-4).
"...God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble." (James 4:6).
"What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? (Romans 6:1-2).
"And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him." (Hebrews 5:9).
"Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord" (Hebrews 12:14).
"If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha." (1 Corinthians 16:22).
"If ye love me, keep my commandments." (John 14:15).
“Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.” (Matthew 5:8).
"Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls." (James 1:21).
"But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God." (Romans 2:8-11).
"For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved." (John 3:20).
“For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.” (Romans 11:21-22).
"...but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments." (Matthew 19:17).
“Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.” (Philippians 2:12).
“...And having become servants of God, ye have your fruit unto holiness and the end, everlasting life.” (Romans 6:22) (KJ21).
“In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.” (1 John 3:10).

Perfection is the stAndard.

While it is true that God calls us to be perfect as the Heavenly Father is perfect (Which is to love our enemies, etc.), it is not true that not having reached "Perfection" is loss of salvation in any way. Being perfect is not the same as keeping God's Eternal Moral Laws (like loving God and loving your neighbor).

we can’t do it....we can never be worthy,

Scripture says,

"Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them." (Romans 1:32).

"That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God;" (Colossians 1:10).

I thank my God I am “made” worthy by the Shed Blood. God bless

Scripture says,
"But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin." (1 John 1:7).

 

[Kenny'sID]

Yes

That would be funny if it weren't so sad/untrue.

The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God.

Doesn't look like any wicked here will be going to heaven. :

Eph 5:3-6 But among you there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed, because these are improper for God’s holy people. Nor should there be obscenity, foolish talk or coarse joking, which are out of place, but rather thanksgiving. For of this you can be sure: No sexually immoral, impure or greedy person—such a person is an idolater—has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God’s wrath comes on those who are disobedient. Therefore do not be partners with them.

He's telling the very people we are telling what they have to do, people that are among him claiming to be Christians. He's telling them that Gods wrath come to the disobedient or wicked, same exact thing. He is very clear.

He might as well be saying these very words, "NO! the wicked will go to hell, even you here that are supposed Christians."

Go tell an Atheist that on the street, "Did you know wicked people can go to heaven?" Good chance they'll will laugh at you. Even they know the word of God clearly, where some have deluded themselves. To see it any other way means one has chosen to confuse themselves so they can "think" they can do as they want, and all because that's what they'd rather do...and not do as God requires.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Believe as you wish...

Do you believe Jesus is God?
If so, then the matter should be settled that He cannot be tempted to sin because James 1:13 clearly says God is not tempted to do any kind of evil. If a person is tempted to do something evil, that means they are sinning because to look upon a woman in lust is a sin and to hate one's brother is also a grevious sin, as well. I call them mind sins. In fact, the Bible mentions how that man's thoughts were evil continually as a part of why the global flood happened. In short, when we say that we are being tempted to do something wrong, we are already sinning in our mind.

 

[amariselle]

Well, he is not the only one. I have talked with others who believed in a similar way at Theology Online. One particular user called me Wolf and Jason666 (Who believed that way).

Even another poster here had admitted that they can do evil and still be saved.
You can check out my reply to their post here.

This is not anything new. George Sodini was a mass murderer and suicide victim who believed he was saved despite his evil acts. See this aritcle here about him.

It is the truth. They really said that and believe that.

The good is to show folks here of what the Scriptures are really saying. Sometimes an extreme example has to be used to wake people up to what they are believing sometimes. People get in their comfort zones and think everything is okay, when it may not be okay. Remember, it was the luke warm church that was spewed out of Christ's mouth.

But the Bible speaks of things like this and warns against it. Jude 1:4 is but one example.

So works are necessary as a part of the salvation process?

Warning about deception is one thing, throwing horrific statements around or attempting to bring brothers and sisters in Christ into condemnation (specifically for things they did not say) is entirely another.

In regard to works, I've said this many many times, but I'll say it again: we are saved unto good works, not by them.

And, again, lest you tell me that I am telling Christians they should not do good works, or that they should just go sin all they want and in the worst ways they can think of, I'm not. So, please do not read that into what I write again.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Warning about deception is one thing, throwing horrific statements around or attempting to bring brothers and sisters in Christ into condemnation (specifically for things they did not say) is entirely another.

So you think the people I have talked with is simply not true?
Or are you saying I am condemning people here wrongfully?
If so, then please show me the post #.

In regard to works, I've said this many many times, but I'll say it again: we are saved unto good works, not by them.

I believe that to be splitting hairs.

And, again, lest you tell me that I am telling Christians they should not do good works, or that they should just go sin all they want and in the worst ways they can think of, I'm not. So, please do not read that into what I write again.

If we are not saved by works then that means works are not necessary for salvation then.

 

[amariselle]

So you think the people I have talked with is simply not true?

I didn't say that, did I?

Or are you saying I am condemning people here wrongfully?

It seems you have at various points, yes. You have taken what one person evidently said to you and assumed that perhaps many Christians here would say the same kind of thing regarding the hope of their salvation.

If so, then please show me the post #.

I am referring to your suggestion that many Christians (specifically several on this forum/this particular thread) would simply echo what that one individual apparently said to you regarding mowing people down with a gun.

I believe that it is splitting hairs.

You have not supported that assertion with proper Biblical reference in context.

If we are not saved by works then that means works are not necessary for salvation then.

As it is written over and over in Scripture, all that is necessary for salvation is what Christ has done and our faith/belief/resting in His finished work.

What comes next, the good works we were saved unto and walk in; that is our good and reasonable service, sound doctrine and true discipleship. Every Christian should do so, should grow in His grace and in Spiritual maturity. This happens once we are saved because we have been born again, have passed from death to life and are "new creations" in Christ. And it is written, we are then sealed with the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption.

And we do not mix grace with works. Salvation is a gift, it cannot be earned by us, and is not earned by us. What it actually took to save us happened once for all on the cross. Our salvation was bought with the precious blood of Christ.

The "willful sin" spoken of in Scripture is trampling the Son of God underfoot and counting the blood of the covenant an unclean thing (insufficient to save).

This is what someone who adds their "righteous" works to Christ's finished work to be saved, is doing. Basically they are saying that Christ's sacrifice was not enough to save us, but that we must add something we ourselves do, because if we don't, we won't be saved after all.

Scripture plainly tells us that we are not to be ignorant of God's righteousness, or go about to establish our own righteousness. Only Christ and His righteousness can save us or keep us saved (until the day of redemption).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I didn't say that, did I?

I am glad. For the conversations I had with other Eternal Security proponents was very real; And what they told me was what they truly believed.

It seems you have at various points, yes. You have taken what one person evidently said to you and assumed that perhaps many Christians here would say the same kind of thing regarding the hope of their salvation.

No. Nowhere did I claim that folks within this thread believe in the extreme version of Eternal Security that makes for an allowance for excessive sin. If somebody like another poster (within another thread I had shown you) openly admits they are saved regardless of committing certain grevious sins, then I am merely relaying what they believe and I am not condemning them. Their own words condemn themselves.

I am referring to your suggestion that many Christians (specifically several on this forum/this particular thread) would simply echo what that one individual apparently said to you regarding mowing people down with a gun.

It's not an accusation to ask a question. I am merely wondering what they believe. Some on this forum do actually believe that (Whether you want to believe that or not).

You have not supported that assertion with proper Biblical reference in context.

I am more than happy to go over the context with you involving the long list of verses I posted before.

As it is written over and over in Scripture, all that is necessary for salvation is what Christ has done and our faith/belief/resting in His finished work.

Nowhere will you find Scripture ever saying such a thing. Only a select few verses are taken out of context will make such a thing so; And even then it would be a violation of basic morality or the goodness of God to do so. For God cannot agree with a belief that says we can sin and still be saved even a little. For if we sin, then we bring death upon ourselves unless we repent. For you obviously believe that believers do not stop sinning after they accepted Christ. However, you believe they are saved. This means they are saved even while they sin. But can God agree with sin? Surely not. Anyways, please find a verse that says the above words that you say and then we can go from there.

What comes next, the good works we were saved unto and walk in; that is our good and reasonable service, sound doctrine and true discipleship. Every Christian should do so, should grow in His grace and in Spiritual maturity. This happens once we are saved because we have been born again, have passed from death to life and are "new creations" in Christ. And it is written, we are then sealed with the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption.

God the Father sets his seal upon those who work towards the meat that leads to everlasting life.

"Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed." (John 6:27).

And we do not mix grace with works. Salvation is a gift, it cannot be earned by us, and is not earned by us.

Nobody said about earning anything. If Bob received a car as a gift for free does that mean that not running red lights and not driving drunk means that Bob is trying to pay for his car or does it mean Bob is merely being responsible with his gift?

What it actually took to save us happened once for all on the cross. Our salvation was bought with the precious blood of Christ.

1 John 1:7 refutes that kind of thinking.

The "willful sin" spoken of in Scripture is trampling the Son of God underfoot and counting the blood of the covenant an unclean thing (insufficient to save).

No. Hebrews 10:26 is talking to believers. Unbelievers have not received the knowledge of the truth. Besides, the context is talking about perdition or falling away. "Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him." (Hebrews 10:38).

This is what someone who adds their "righteous" works to Christ's finished work to be saved, is doing. Basically they are saying that Christ's sacrifice was not enough to save us, but that we must add something we ourselves do, because if we don't, we won't be saved after all.

There is no such thing as adding one's own righteousness to Christ's righteousness because Christ is the One who does the good work within a believer. Jesus saves in Justification and in Sanctification.

Scripture plainly tells us that we are not to be ignorant of God's righteousness, or go about to establish our own righteousness. Only Christ and His righteousness can save us or keep us saved (until the day of redemption).

Yes, we are to establish Christ's righteousness both in Justification and in Sanctification. If one seeks to obey God's Word, how can they be condemned? For if there were no commands given to us in the New Testament, you would probably be on to something. But there are a 1,000 + commands in the New Testament. Oh, but that is discipleship that does not involves salvation, right? It's just suggestive to do those things, right? Sorry, the Bible does not call such things as suggestions but He actually calls them commands. Commands are not optional. You have to do them. They are a part of the faith.

Disobeying God's commands can lead to a loss of salvation. Just read Matthew 5:28-30, Matthew 6:15, 1 John 3:15, etc.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

Do you believe Jesus is God?
If so, then the matter should be settled that He cannot be tempted to sin because James 1:13 clearly says God is not tempted to do any kind of evil. If a person is tempted to do something evil, that means they are sinning because to look upon a woman in lust is a sin and to hate one's brother is also a grevious sin, as well. I call them mind sins. In fact, the Bible mentions how that man's thoughts were evil continually as a part of why the global flood happened. In short, when we say that we are being tempted to do something wrong, we are already sinning in our mind.

Good grief man, get a grip on your theology...Satan himself tempted Christ and Jesus had to meet it the way He taught us to... It is written! Jesus prayed everyday for the Grace from His Father to withstand the trials He would face. Because of His constant communication with the Father, Christ was able to overcome. The same power promised us through the Holy Spirit. It's a Gospel of hope man! It's beautiful.

1 Corinthians 10:13
There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

Jesus is our example in ALL things... especially something as eternity destroying as temptation. How can He really pay the price for us if He never truly lived it?

I pray you someday see Him in ALL His Glory.