Men that are the housemakers?

I would call it an eisegesis - reading something into the text that is not there in the first place.

Bortsss said:

How has this worked for you?

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Bort, hi.. wanna preface my response w/2 quick points of order. One, I really dig your avatar, it's cool.. & Two, my response is my experience solely. My opinion, there is no one-size-fits-all for relationships.
When I first got with my wife, I was a young, Alpha-male who held traditional views on gender roles. As the years went by (married 15 years now), my wife surpassed me professionally & became the primary bread winner (we both still work full time tho). During this transition, I felt some frustration watching my Alpha manhood fade (both because of age, and our gender roles reversing)..
As my wife became more focused on her job, I started picking up domestic duties. And the more I took 'em on, the more I enjoyed it. And my wife started enjoying being the 'man' now. The roles reversing started to feel like a relief for us, that it was natural for our relationship..
Like I stated, every couple is different, w/different personalities.. but this is working for us. And I've never felt that it affected our relationship, or standing, with God (?) Who makes dinner, & who makes more money is not (to my knowledge) a salvation issue. And I think it's ultimately increased our household happiness. Peace.

Babe Ruth said:

Who makes dinner, & who makes more money is not (to my knowledge) a salvation issue.

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It is nowhere near to being a salvation issue.

But then again, most of the obedience issues in the bible have nothing to do with salvation. It is rather about pleasing God by walking in His ways.

And I have seen nothing in scripture that says a wife making more $$ than her husband even falls into that category.

IMO the only issue on that is cultural, which people try to make out as scriptural.

Babe Ruth said:

The roles reversing started to feel like a relief for us, that it was natural for our relationship..
Like I stated, every couple is different, w/different personalities.. but this is working for us.

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You're exactly right (and I think the two of you feeling that way is a good indicator). Every couple is different with different personalities. It's great to hear that the two of you discovered what works for the two of you instead of trying to force yourselves into expected molds that didn't fit. I think more and more people are [hopefully] realizing this.

Welcome to the forums, BTW.

While I work a fairly demanding schedule that includes night and weekends on call, I have always taken care of the children, home, and yard throughout our seventeen year marriage. For the first fifteen, it was because my wife did not care to do those things and was content to sit around while I took care of things. She was diagnosed with rheumatoid arthritis a little over a year ago and her symptoms limit her physical abilities now. She stayed at home with the kids for four years when they were small. Otherwise she's worked full time. I truly love my wife, but trying to handle everything can be tiring and frustrating at times. She always says I wouldn't know what to do if she did help out since its been this way the entire time we've been married.

Some gender roles are culturally defined.

Here are some that Christians need to definitely keep in mind and follow in marriage:

Ephesians 5
22 Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord. 23 For the husband is head of the wife, as also Christ is head of the church; and He is the Savior of the body. 24 Therefore, just as the church is subject to Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in everything.

25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for her, 26 that He might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word, 27 that He might present her to Himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but that she should be holy and without blemish. 28 So husbands ought to love their own wives as their own bodies; he who loves his wife loves himself. 29 For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as the Lord does the church. 30 For we are members of His body,of His flesh and of His bones. 31 “For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.” 32 This is a great mystery, but I speak concerning Christ and the church. 33 Nevertheless let each one of you in particular so love his own wife as himself, and let the wife see that she respects her husband.
(NKJV)

Colossians 3
18 Wives, submit to your own husbands, as is fitting in the Lord.
19 Husbands, love your wives and do not be bitter toward them.
(NKJV)

I Peter 3
3 Wives, likewise, be submissive to your own husbands, that even if some do not obey the word, they, without a word, may be won by the conduct of their wives, 2 when they observe your chaste conduct accompanied by fear. 3 Do not let your adornment be merely outward—arranging the hair, wearing gold, or putting on fine apparel— 4 rather let it be the hidden person of the heart, with the incorruptible beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is very precious in the sight of God. 5 For in this manner, in former times, the holy women who trusted in God also adorned themselves, being submissive to their own husbands, 6 as Sarah obeyed Abraham, calling him lord, whose daughters you are if you do good and are not afraid with any terror.

7 Husbands, likewise, dwell with them with understanding, giving honor to the wife, as to the weaker vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life, that your prayers may not be hindered.
(NKJV)

Link H,
I really wish my wife was one to read scripture as she has no knowledge of these passages. She is the absolute ruler of our family in all areas concering every one of us in our household. My kids know not to ask me about anything as its not my call. Our pastor has even made comments that he knows that most every comment I make or action taken by me is because I've been instructed to do so. My mother had firm control of things at home but not to this extent. My father, God rest his soul, used to say that I haven't made a single decision since I said I do. I can't say our situation is right or that I like being a part of it but it's all I know as a married Christian man.

It's not right for either partner to spouse to dominate the other, meyerjd. Have you tried talking to your wife about this?

We've talked about these matters. And she has tried to loosen some of the control on things. She is a take charge person who does well directing others. Its hard to use faith or scripture in a conversation with her. We attend cuurch as a family but she is not really a person of faith. She never attended church growing up and only joined because she knew it was very important to me to be married in the church.

meyerjd said:

Link H,
I really wish my wife was one to read scripture as she has no knowledge of these passages. She is the absolute ruler of our family in all areas concering every one of us in our household. My kids know not to ask me about anything as its not my call. Our pastor has even made comments that he knows that most every comment I make or action taken by me is because I've been instructed to do so. My mother had firm control of things at home but not to this extent. My father, God rest his soul, used to say that I haven't made a single decision since I said I do. I can't say our situation is right or that I like being a part of it but it's all I know as a married Christian man.

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I think you may just have to set some boundaries and stand up for yourself and for your role as the man in the home. It's best if you can do this in a way where she doesn't get upset. You can also call her on it if she is disrespectful to you.

There is a theory that women who can run over their husbands like this don't usually enjoy their husbands being like this. They may not like their husbands being firm and exercising leadership at first, but then respect them, and if the husbands don't, they may get bored with the marriage and with their husbands.

Some of the feminists who want to be large and in charge may say they want equality or to be in control or whatever, but instinctively are attracted to the man they can't control. That's the idea, anway.

If she claims to be a Christian, you can start with reading her passages like the ones I quoted. You can also make it a habit to teach the Bible to your wife and children and pray with them on a regular basis. I do this, more often with the kids than with my wife, though we do that together as well.

I've spent time in grad school, and my wife is a woman with a plan, that kind of woman. When I started spending more time around the home and the kids, it took some adjusting when I was around more for her to be comfortable with me being in charge of some thing she used to do. Every couple is different, but it is possible to readjust these things.

And if she's disrespectful, let her know that's not cool. Maybe that's not the way to say it. But sometimes just calling her on it and letting her know you are displeased and you don't tolerate being bossed around or controlled may be enough. She might resist at first, and you may have to stand your ground.

If meyerjd's already tried talking and his wife hasn't responded well, I'd suggest counselling together. I doubt (speaking as a wife) that him trying to make the same point more assertively is likely to get the reaction he wants.

It does also partly depend on why she's like this. If, for example, it's a reaction to having been bullied/abused in the past, she may need to do some internal healing before she's ready for a healthier relationship pattern.

meyerjd said:

We've talked about these matters. And she has tried to loosen some of the control on things. She is a take charge person who does well directing others. Its hard to use faith or scripture in a conversation with her. We attend cuurch as a family but she is not really a person of faith. She never attended church growing up and only joined because she knew it was very important to me to be married in the church.

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My wife has gone through times when she could be rather disrespectful to me, the past. Sometimes, this coincided with pregnancy, post-partum blues, etc. I realize hormones can have an effect on some women's moods, but it seems to amplify some issues that can seem minor at other times that are easy to ignore. I was really busy, taking classes and studying long hours in grad school, and I came home and she had an attitude toward me that made it hard to come home to.

I was putting the dishes in the dish washer, and she didn't like how I did it, nudged me out of the way angrily, and put them in the way she wanted. It was really rude, and after that I thought about how disrespectful she was, and prayed about it, and realized I hadn't consistently been praying about it on the occasions the attitude flared up. It wasn't a constant thing, of course, but happened at different times. We were getting ready to move and she was pregant. This was a difficult time for her.

She was really moody and it seemed like every night conversations turned into a fight. We had a conversation and I said something very benign and she got upset like I'd insulted her. I looked around the apartment a few minutes later and she wasn't there. I looked at our parking space outside and the van was gone. Soon after, she called from a friend's house, an older woman from church she called 'mom'. The woman gave her some good advice, apparently, and I felt okay with her talking with this woman for some emotional support, since my wife was going through a tough time emotionally. I agreed to her staying there and bringing the van home in time to take the kids to school.

That night, I prayed a long list of things. I prayed about how my wife would misinterpret things I said, issues related to submission and I Peter 3, how i believed the way her parents were when she was raised affected how she treated me-- a topic I'd never been able to discuss with her. There were about seven different topics I prayed about. I asked the Lord to speak to her. My wife had gotten a word of knowledge about someone at church and shared it with the person, and it was right on the mark not long before, and that stood out in my mind that she could hear God. So I argued my case why I had faith that it was God's will that my wife change on these issues, that anything I asked according to His will, I would have it, and I believed I would receive. It was one of those times I really sensed I was praying in faith.

But I was still blown away not many days later. My wife was going to this 'life change' study at church. She came home and asked me to sit next to her on the couch. I thought, 'uh-oh, does she want to argue again.' I tried to avoid that. But she seemed really pleasant and not argumentative. I sat down next to her.

Instead of laying into me, she told me I was a good husband and started praising certain things about me. Then, she took me through my prayer list. She said God had spoken to her certtain things about herself. She went through about five of the seven things I had prayed to God to speak to her about. But if I prayed a paragraph for each point, she had a couple of pages on the topic, and what she had learned went a lot deeper than what I had prayed.

The meeting she was at had table leaders who went through a kind of Bible study book with them, before a speaker spoke on the topic. The table leader had asked if any of them had a problem with anger. She thought to herself she didn't. Then she said you might have a problem with anger if you get angry at the way your husband does the dishes. Then she started listening.

For a couple of weeks or maybe a bit longer, I'd see her crying on occasion. I saw her just standing and crying in the living room of the new apartment we moved to soon after this answer to prayer. I asked her why she was crying and she felt bad about an occasion when she treated me unkindly. I talked with her, comforted. She askd me forgiveness, and I forgave it.

Within a few weeks of my prayer, my wife came to me and told me that the Lord spoke to her about the other two points I'd prayed about.

My memory is a bit fuzzy on the list of things I prayed for, but I wrote a post with a title along the lines of 'Amazing answers to prayer' or something along those lines in the Married Couples forum around that tiime. Maybe it was 2011.

After this happened with her, then I realized part of my responsibility as a husband and a fellow believer was to encourage her to treat me with respect, follow Ephesians 5 or I Peter 3. So if I detected something disrespect, I'd point it out. She was more open to it after that than she would have been before.

Since then, our marriage has been better. There have been times, on certain occasions, where she was hard for me to get along with due to respect issues, but it seems less of an issue than before for the most part, and her experience with God gave her a clearer idea of how she is supposed to be as a wife, which is makes it easier for me to talk to her when she's needed to reconsider her attitude. Now, for the most part, she is easy to get along with. I'm not trying to paint her in a negative light. That's a risk of posting about a few incidents like this. She is quite a remarkable person and a remarkable wife.

And if you asked her about times she's asked the Lord to pray about me when she had difficulties getting along with me, she'd have a story to tell, too.

Something I have found that helps with conflict in marriage, with us, is if we really humble ourselves before the Lord, and ask him to send point out our sins, give us unity, and help us to love one another, and then we confess our sins to one another. I can think of two times we had real difficulty getting along, where we were really irritating each other. Or she'd be negative, and I didn't want to be around her or talk to her because of it, which made the cycle worse, or whatever the reason was. After these times, it was like we started over with a clean slate with each other, without that build up of negativity. It's a lot better to just deal with issues regularly when they are really small and pray together regularly.

As far as marriage counseling goes, that could be good. It depends on the counselor you get. My wife and I went to a pastor once to talk through an issue. Many years before, before the seven specific answered prayers mentioned before, she seemed from my perspective to be rather hard to get along with, getting overly upset about small things. She asked some Christian neighbors to give us some advice, a married couple who are older than us. The wife listened to her and was a little bit blunt rebuking my wife for her attitude toward me. When they left, my wife cried and spent many hours in prayer that night. She thought the woman was too harsh. It didn't seeem that harsh to me, no harsher than I'd heard my wife speak to others at times. She felt like the Lord had spoken to her that night, but it did not seem that different from what the other wife said. But this wasn't a professional counselor. Some pastors get a bit of counseling training.

A lot of people, it seems men more than woman, just don't like the wild card of introducing some counselor into the marriage. I heard a man say he took his wife to a counselor, a secular psychologist or psychiatrist, and she said they did not need to be together. I can see why he felt betrayed, especially if he paid for that to save his marriage. But I see why. She was constantly yelling at him. He seemed like a nice, calm guy. But he'd cheated on her, probably multiple times, and she was bitter. But she didn't behave normally even around other people toward him.

There is also the danger of getting a marriage counselor with a left-wing social agenda, or whatever agenda you don't believe in. It would be awful for a Christian man to pay to go to a marriage counselor with his wife, and she turns out to be someone with a very different world view, for example contradicing what the BIble teaches about roles of husbands and wives in Ephesians, Colossians, and I Peter. If you got someone who was a really radical feminist who thought that problems in marriage were caused by men being afraid of female power, who thought that all men were potential rapists and should view themselves as such, that would be awful. Then if the wife wanted to follow the counselor while the husband wanted to fire her after the first meeting, that's worse. If you do go to a counselor, try to do some research about his or her philosophy about marriage beforehand.

The title 'Christian counselor' doesn't guarantee what they believe. There was a Christian marriage counseling show on the radio that I caught a few bits and pieces of while driving around many years ago. On the few occasions I heard it, the counselors would advice the woman who called in to separate from her husband and live apart from him. I think one example was the man talking down to his wife, either outright insulting her or pointing out her flaws. I didn't get the context, but it did concern me that I could tune in for the program briefly and it seemed like every time, the advice was get out of the house. The thing that really bothered me was how unprofessional it was to advise this based on one side of the story, over the radio at that. People going through marriage problems seeking sympathy may remember some one off comment from two years ago that isn't characteristic of the way they are treated in the marriage.

Then you have people on the Internet recommending divorce or separation based on the fact another party won't go to marriage counseling. Some individuals have reasons not to like marriage counseling besides not wanting to work on their marriage. We have no record of the prophets, Jesus, or the apostles saying, "Thou shalt go to marriage counseling." One of my professors, a psychologist, noticed that collectivist cultures have such a tiny presence of clinical psychologists and related counseling fields. When you live in a house with your dad, your uncle, and their families in a collectivist culture, and they give you unsolicited or solicited advice about your marriage or other life issues, you may not feel the need to pay a counselor. But if you live in a city where you are isolated from other people, you may feel that need.

On the other hand, a trained counselor may be valuable in helping a couple learn to communicate without blaming each other and other useful skills. But marriage counseling may be part of one set of solutions to marriage problems and not THE solution.

No, counselling's definitely not the one and only solution. But when there's a problem, and one spouse has tried to address it and the other refuses, a counsellor can help keep the focus on solving the problem (rather than allowing the other spouse to deflect, avoid, refuse to deal with it etc).

Ideally a counsellor should work with you within your own worldview to establish and accomplish your (joint) goals; but of course that doesn't apply when there's abuse going on, because then the abuser's goal is to perpetuate the abuse.

meyerjd said:

Link H,
I really wish my wife was one to read scripture as she has no knowledge of these passages. She is the absolute ruler of our family in all areas concering every one of us in our household. My kids know not to ask me about anything as its not my call. Our pastor has even made comments that he knows that most every comment I make or action taken by me is because I've been instructed to do so. My mother had firm control of things at home but not to this extent. My father, God rest his soul, used to say that I haven't made a single decision since I said I do. I can't say our situation is right or that I like being a part of it but it's all I know as a married Christian man.

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If you are unhappy in that situation that isn't fair to you, at all. You should have a voice, especially concerning your household. But link H, then wants for all women to be in your position with their husbands. That isn't right either. There needs to be a partnership. That does not mean 50/50, unless that is what you both want. It means communicating and agreeing to do things, together. That is what marriage is, two people coming together. Not a master and slave relationship.

Anyway contemporary Christian leaders understood those passages to mean the wife only need submit the same amount the husband is to submit to the government and church leaders. And there are many other verses talking about youngters submiting to their elders and each person summiting to each other, etc. Husbands are specifically told among other things that they must "love" and "die unto themselves" for their wife. That very well could mean being the househusband or doing the typical "female role" in your culture, at least once in awhile . I don't see @LinkH and others like him harping on that part.

There are plenty of interpretations that don't have to be sexist. Even if your interpretation was what the Bible writers meant to convey, so? Modern Christians have stopped or started doing things the Bible says to do or not to do. In some of the very chapters that say "wives submit" it says for "slaves to submit" to their "masters". Should slavery be okay?

I actually think both husband and wife should try doing what the other typically does, if possible. It will really help each other understand and appreciate what the other deals with and does on average. Even if it is just a day or a few hours switch.

As to the OP, if I made enough money I would love for my husband to stay at home. He would too. We are making investments now so hopefully one day it can happen. For two years I didn't work and for about a year hubby didn't work, but not at the same time. Now we both work and make about the same. If one of us gets paid more we are thrilled. I have gotten more raises and higher raises than him. He isn't threatened by that, like some sensitive egos might. I don't base respect for anyone by how much money they make. That is a really horrible standard to judge someone by. I actually respect my hubby more for being able to do what will work for us and not going along with what society says we should do, he does get abuse for it. He is braver than most other men I know. He is wonderful. I love him so much.

Motherofkittens said:

Anyway contemporary Christian leaders understood those passages to mean the wife only need submit the same amount the husband is to submit to the government and church leaders. And there are many other verses talking about youngters submiting to their elders and each person summiting to each other, etc. Husbands are specifically told among other things that they must "love" and "die unto themselves" for their wife. That very well could mean being the househusband or doing the typical "female role" in your culture, at least once in awhile . I don't see @LinkH and others like him harping on that part.

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The Bible doesn't say a man is to 'die unto himself' for his wife. It says that a man is to follow the example of Christ, who gave His life for the church. The agenda of Christ laying down His life for the church was set by God. The church didn't say, "Would you die for me by wearing my pink purse on your shoulder and walking a mile in a red high healed shoes."

In general, I don't think 'house husband' is a good role for man. There may be situations where a husband has to stay at home and take care of the work there. Some men retire while their wives continue working for a while. Health issues may keep a man at home. Some men work from home. I did not argue that men couldn't wash dishes, mop floor, or care for kids in my previous post. I don't know why you are singling me out. I do believe men need to act as the head in the marriage, love their wives and follow the example of Christ who laid down His life for the church.

There are plenty of interpretations that don't have to be sexist. Even if your interpretation was what the Bible writers meant to convey, so? Modern Christians have stopped or started doing things the Bible says to do or not to do. In some of the very chapters that say "wives submit" it says for "slaves to submit" to their "masters". Should slavery be okay?

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The Bible doesn't say everyone has to own slaves or that our society has to have slavery. But in a society that had slavery, like the first century Roman world, masters were to be good and fair to their slaves and love their neighbor as they love themselves. Philemon owned a slave, Onesimus, who was a fellow believer.

LinkH said:

The Bible doesn't say a man is to 'die unto himself' for his wife. It says that a man is to follow the example of Christ, who gave His life for the church. The agenda of Christ laying down His life for the church was set by God. The church didn't say, "Would you die for me by wearing my pink purse on your shoulder and walking a mile in a red high healed shoes."

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And neither are any wives I know of. Where do you come up with this stuff?

We are ALL to die of our egos (selfishness) daily (so that, naturally, includes men/husbands).

23 Bible verses about Death To Self

LinkH said:

"Would you die for me by wearing my pink purse on your shoulder and walking a mile in a red high healed shoes."

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High heel shoes should be outlawed.

Dave-W said:

High heel shoes should be outlawed.

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Tobacco first.

Dave-W said:

High heel shoes should be outlawed.

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I'd rather live in a society where the government is not that intrusive into everyone's personal decisions, but it would be better if women opted out.

A few years ago, I read that privates were being ordered to wear women's high-healed as part of some kind of campaign, probably he-for-she. What a mean thing to do to them. It would be against my religion to do so. But it does not send a very good message to the US's enemies. Also, it is like they want to shift the blame of women making unhealthy fashion choices on young men who are not responsible for those choices.

Paidiske said:

Tobacco first.

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I can agree with that.