Men that are the housemakers?

[LinkH]

I do not "submit" to anyone.

Christ is Someone.

You seem to beat the 'I don't submit to anyone' drum quite a bit. That's a very rebellious drum. Do you think it's beat is pleasing to God?

 

[Paidiske]

I think your comments illustrate my point that some women would find it difficult to submit to a stay-at-home husband who isn't out earning money for the family.

I don't think it's about whether he's a stay at home husband or he earns millions, to be honest. My husband and I are in a partnership of equals; we make big decisions together and sometimes, that means he "submits" to me (things go the way I would have chosen) and sometimes I "submit" to him (things go the way he would have chosen). That, to me, seems like what it is to submit to one another out of love.

The dynamic you're suggesting - where things always go the way the husband would have chosen, because biology - is to my mind far too open to abuse for me to ever contemplate living in it. And in fact if I genuinely believed that was what God required of us in marriage, I would not have married.

If a woman only submits to her husband because he earns money, that sounds to me as if she is trapped in a situation where she simply doesn't have the financial freedom to leave, which is hardly a healthy situation for anyone.

 

[LinkH]

Paidiske, submission is not about going the way you would have chosen. Husbands and wives are supposed to please one another. Paul seems to acknowledge this while arguing for celibacy in I Corinthians 7. A husband is also supposed to love his wife as Christ loved the church.

The issue is whether the husband or wife makes the decision. If the wife submits and the husband decides for what his wife would have chosen, that is still submission.

If a husband didn't love his wife or consider her needs or desires, sure, he'd always get what he wanted. But that's not the type of marriage the Bible encourages us to have, and not the type of marriage that portrays the relationship between Christ and the church as it should

A marriage where the wife does not submit to her husband does not portray the relationship between Christ and the church as it should either.

This is an important issue when we realize that one of the mysteries of the Gospel is revealed through marriage. Two becoming one flesh also speaks of the mystery of Christ and the church. Even in the creation of woman, God put his son to sleep, and his side was pierced. Out of that, God made him a bride and presented her to him.

I wasn't thinking of a situation where a wife submits because she doesn't have any money and he has it all. I'm talking about a respect issue. Some women have a problem, emotionally, with their husbands if the husband is unemployed or takes care at the kids at home while she is at the office.

 

[Paidiske]

Surely mutual submission, and two becoming one flesh, is best reflected when decisions are made together, not when one rules over the other?

Wives cannot submit to their husbands in the same way that the church does to Christ, because husbands are not gods. The church will never have to point out to Christ that actually, he is mistaken about something which will have severe negative outcomes; but this is a frequent reality with husbands! So wifely submission, to be healthy, must be of a different order.

(And just quietly, I respect my husband much more for being willing to be at home, than I ever would if he were the kind of egotist who insisted that was my place).

 

[RedPonyDriver]

Christ is Someone.

You seem to beat the 'I don't submit to anyone' drum quite a bit. That's a very rebellious drum. Do you think it's beat is pleasing to God?

Why don't you let me worry about that. You are not in a position to say anything to me.

 

[Dave-W]

If a woman only submits to her husband because he earns money, that sounds to me as if she is trapped in a situation where she simply doesn't have the financial freedom to leave, which is hardly a healthy situation for anyone.

And I would submit that falls well short of true biblical submission. (which btw is REQUIRED from everyone)

 

[Dave-W]

I do not "submit" to anyone. I'm grown and can govern my own behavior.

You do realize you are supposed to be submitted to your congregational leaders, right?

Hebrews 13:17a Obey your leaders and submit to them ...

1 Peter 2:13a Submit yourselves for the Lord’s sake to every human institution...

These are COMMANDS and should not be ignored.

 

[LinkH]

Y
Hebrews 13:17a Obey your leaders and submit to them ...

This verse is a bit 'softer' than the KJV makes it out to be, btw. A man who worked on a Bible translation I spoke with said it could be rendered, 'Be persuaded by them who guide you.' Others have made the same observation and it seems to be true based on word studies.

It doesn't use the word hupotasso.

 

[Dave-W]

That was not from the KJV but the New American Standard, which is as close to the NA27 Greek NT as you can get.

Why would you want it "softer?"

 

[LinkH]

That was not from the KJV but the New American Standard, which is as close to the NA27 Greek NT as you can get.

Why would you want it "softer?"

It's not about what I want. You can look up the word yourself. It's an important point for leaders, too, that they are to lead primarily by persuading people to follow the word of God, rather than relying on 'because I say so'. Paul gives a really good of this consistently throughout his epistles.

 

[LinkH]

I do not "submit" to anyone. I'm grown and can govern my own behavior. I make decisions on my own, capable of looking out for the interests of everyone involved.

Why don't you let me worry about that. You are not in a position to say anything to me.

I've done my part in pointing it out. As Dave mentioned, all believers are required to submit. Submission is part of the Christian faith.

These tirade posts you post whenever the topic comes up, where you say you don't want to submit to anyone because you are all grown up, and tell us how old you are... honestly they come off as rather childish. Like a child throwing a temper tantrum. It may be a sore point for you, but it submission is still something God requires of you. You don't get a special exemption.

 

[ImaginaryDay]

...It's an important point for leaders, too, that they are to lead primarily by persuading people to follow the word of God, rather than relying on 'because I say so'.

But isn't this a fairly consistent picture that we get from those who espouse wifely 'submission' in marriage? Eventually it does become a "say so" issue.

 

[LinkH]

But isn't this a fairly consistent picture that we get from those who espouse wifely 'submission' in marriage? Eventually it does become a "say so" issue.

It shouldn't have to become a 'because I say so' issue with adults. Most parents have probably used that phrase with their children. But notice I pointed out that the verse he quoted has a 'softer' word for yielding to persuasion, rather than 'hupotasso'.

 

[Dave-W]

But notice I pointed out that the verse he quoted has a 'softer' word for yielding to persuasion, rather than 'hupotasso'.

That word would be peitho - which is translated "obey" to start off the verse. But then it uses hypeiko translated "submit" and it has a stronger sense: Stop resisting, give way, yield.

Take the 2 together. Be persuaded, and then just flat out obey.

 

[Teslafied]

I think I may be one of the odd ones out on this...

I believe that a man is to provide for the wife, unless of course something is wrong like he's sick or hurt or something but in general he should be the soul bread winner.

Please forgive me but I truly don't believe women should work, call me old fashioned but I believe we are called into submission. We should submit to our husbands. We women are to stay home, do the cooking, take care of the kids and our husbands. Unfortunately today with the rise of feminism we have lost the true biblical definition of what it means to be a Godly wife.

I won't lie I've wrestled with rebellion as I have ODD oppositional defiant disorder but ultimately my love for God far surpasses my mental disorders. So yes I get mad when my husband tells me no - who wouldn't? but at the end of the day I realize he's doing his job because he loves me, and I need to do the right thing and obey him just as Sarah obeyed Abraham even calling him lord.

I don't always do my part since I have a 2yr old and tons of pets but I cook, I clean, I raise our child while my hubby works and I take care of the chickens and so forth. My job isn't easy but it's what women are truly called to do and I enjoy my job being a house wife.

I don't believe God calls men to be the homemakers because that's contrary to what the bible says.

There is a divine order to things... I've lost many friends and family due to these matters. My family is a family of feminists they believe that women should wear the britches and that we women should not have to submit. So basically I have a family that is quite rebellious in that matter and they make me out to look weak. They say I'm brainwashed, I'm in a cult, I'm being deceived, and I'm being abused. The truth of the matter is the woman is the weaker vessel and that's why we all need a strong Godly man to set us straight and I'm not deceived a woman's job is to submit. Yes it's not easy because Afterall the woman sinned first due to rebellion.

I know I'm rambling on...
All this is just my two cents on the matter...

 

[Paidiske]

The thing about being a bread winner/working outside the home...

Historically speaking, this is new. In Biblical times, pretty much nobody except soldiers worked away from home. People worked at home (their home was on the farm, or their carpenter's shop was in the front room, etc).

So the idea that there was this divide where the husband went out and earned, and the woman stayed home and kept house... that's post-industrial revolution. Before that, both husband and wife did work which contributed to the household income, and both were at home while they did it! (See Proverbs 31 - the wife worked and generated income and did it from home, and her husband would have been doing similar. He would not have been doing a 9-5 job somewhere else. Or note the many references to women working in fields and so forth).

As an extension of this, both parents would also have had significant contact with their children over the course of the day, so the idea that parenting and raising children was exclusively the mother's domain would also have been quite foreign. They'd have both been around.

My point is, we can't take post-industrial revolution patterns of work and earning income, project them back onto the Bible, and then declare them to be universal Christian norms. If we wanted to argue that our patterns of working life should be the way people in the Bible lived, then men as well as women should have more integrated work and home life.

Now that's slightly different to the question of submission, but purely looking at the question of the division of labour and economic earning.

 

[NothingIsImpossible]

Better question is why do people care in the end. Its not a sin for the wife to work and the husband to be a housemaker. Sure, we could argue back and forth about what the bible is really trying to say on the matter, but regardless it never says its a sin. Thus arguing about it is silly. Only thing more silly is the fact that most topics here end up being about submission stuff instead of the original topic at hand. Househusbands. Its easy to talk about the role without bringing up submission.

For me I am the househusband. I cook, I clean, I do chores...etc. My wife is the breadwinner. Though I am in the process of trying to work again. If I am unable to work still do to health issues, my wife is ok with it. Obviously she would be happy if I was able to work too, but she understands. Its why I have been trying to find at home businesses. Sadly most of them have silly requirements. But thats another topic.

Since the topic is already brought up and will likely dominate this conversation until the topic gets shutdown/cleaned up... I believe a wife submits to a husband. BUT I do not believe that means submission as in she is your slave. Theres a difference. My wife submits to me on some things. For example she handles the money, but tends to ask me if I am ok with something she does with it. Mind you I don't require her to do that or anything. She does it by choice because she says I am her husband.

 

[Dave-W]

I don't believe God calls men to be the homemakers because that's contrary to what the bible says.

Where?

 

[Teslafied]

Where?

That's right where In the Bible does it claim men can be housemakers? It doesn't, in fact it claims the opposite it claims that women are to be the housemakers.

 

[Paidiske]

I can't find the words homemaker or housemaker in the Bible at all. I suspect that claiming that the Bible does or does not issue instructions about who is to be those things is an interpretation based on existing preconceptions.