John 14:15 If you Love Me KEEP My Commandments: -- so says Christ

Neal of Zebulun said:

Then please answer two questions which have nothing to do with Salvation, but everything to do with the Law. If someone asked me these questions, I would answer them with a simple yes or no for each, and of course rely on Scriptures to back my answers up. If I didn't know the answer I would say so, and admit I need to study and pray about it more.

The reason they're good and fair questions is because, if I'm reading you right, your claiming that we aren't in danger of breaking any Laws as long as we follow the top two. If that's true, then no Christian following those top two Laws would have any trouble answering the following:

Is it okay with Yahweh, if a mother and son marry?​

How about if they're first cousins?​

Praise Yahweh.

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1. sin (incest, and too close a kinship)
2. okay (incest stops after aunt or uncle - so incest does not include their children)

Some states in America it would be considered too close for 1st cousins to marry, I believe, so laws are passed to stop inbreeding as it affects intelligence.

BobRyan said:

It "included" that.

And this

1 Peter 1
10 Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you, 11 searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow.

And this
John 8
56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.”

And this
Heb 4
2 For indeed we have had the Gospel preached to us, just as they also;

Such that Moses and Elijah stand WITH Christ in glory in Matthew 17 -- BEFORE the cross.

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I'm saying the gospel had to do with Christ/the Seed, not the law. What are you saying?

Neal of Zebulun said:

This is your first post to me in this thread. I believe your argument is that we don't need to study or know the Law in order to keep it.



This was my response. You'll note it has nothing to do with salvation. It's an impersonal question regarding the Law, but this is how you responded:



The word "damned" means "condemned by judgment", and does not directly imply Salvation in itself. This was my understanding of what I thought you meant.

But now I believe you meant whether they can be saved or not, which is not a topic we are allowed to discuss in this sub-forum.



Not only was this not what I was saying, but it's an invitation to break this sub-forum's rules.

In regards to Salvation, the only thing I said was this:



So your last post is not answerable in this sub-forum, and I'm not interested in going down that train of logic, which is not something I actually said, or want to talk about.

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Regarding the man with his mother, what does this Scripture mean?

1 Corinthians 5: 4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when you are gathered together, along with my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

1. What does destruction of the flesh mean?

1stcenturylady said:

1. sin (incest, and too close a kinship)
2. okay (incest stops after aunt or uncle - so incest does not include their children)

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True!

Here's Scriptural proof to back it up:

Post Mount Sinai:

Pre Mount Sinai:

Some states in America it would be considered too close for 1st cousins to marry, I believe, so laws are passed to stop inbreeding as it affects intelligence.

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Man may consider that, but he does not know better than Yahweh. And according to Yahweh, it's not a sin, and it's not considered fornication.

If it were bad for us, He would have said so, because the Law is good for us: (Deuteronomy 6:24, Deuteronomy 10:12-13)

Man will tell you it's okay to do unLawful things, and likewise not to do Lawful things.

And even some Christians, who say they have the Holy Spirit, and who try to follow the top two commandments, will still incorrectly answer the question regarding first cousins. I have witnessed it.

It's not to say that they don't have the Holy Spirit necessarily, but rather that they have simply not been revealed this Truth, and thus falsely teach about it.

This is a problem because there are people in the pulpit teaching that it's a sin, even a sin unto death for first cousins to marry. And as we see with Paul, this is no small matter, no matter how you interpret 1 Corinthians 5!

If Yahweh had changed His Holy Law regarding first cousins, He would have made it clear the last time He modified the Law, which was in the NT.

Just as He made it clear at mount Sinai that the relationship between Abraham and Sarah in Genesis 20:12 is no longer to be allowed.

And we know that these Laws have not been fulfilled either, because Paul, Peter, James, and everyone else taught against fornication, even making it an explicit requirement for Christians to avoid it in Acts of the Apostles 15, and they preached against it throughout the NT.

So again, it's extremely important that we know what fornication is. Man is not righteous enough to define it for himself, even if he thinks it's coming from the heart.

Christians neither, even if they have the Holy Spirit, it does not mean they know all of the Law! (1 Corinthians 13:12.)

The OT is the only place where fornication is explicitly defined, and by no less than Yahweh Himself.

Which is why I'm saying Yahweh wants us to read the Law, and not just trust what we think we know.

Romans 7:

The fact is that there are Christians who teach against first cousins marrying and claim that it's a sin.

If it's true that they 1.) Love Yahweh with everything they got and 2.) Love their fellows as themselves, when they realize that what they're teaching is wrong, they will realign themselves with the actual Law, because they're going against Yahweh and they're seriously hurting other people, especially first cousins who think they would live a life of sin because they love each other enough to marry as responsible Christians, but their families too, and ultimately, the entire congregation.

Thank you for answering my questions!

1stcenturylady said:

Regarding the man with his mother, what does this Scripture mean?

1 Corinthians 5: 4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when you are gathered together, along with my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

1. What does destruction of the flesh mean?

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Paul often uses "the flesh" as a metaphor, as does Yahushua in Matthew 26:41, but this verse is interesting in that "the flesh" is distinct from "his spirit," and not "the Spirit," almost as if he's speaking of his individual flesh and spirit.

I think these verses help relate what Paul was saying in 1 Corinthians 5:

Hebrews 10:




2 Peter 2:



Seek Yahweh!

Neal of Zebulun said:

Paul often uses "the flesh" as a metaphor, as does Yahushua in Matthew 26:41, but this verse is interesting in that "the flesh" is distinct from "his spirit," and not "the Spirit," almost as if he's speaking of his individual flesh and spirit.

I think these verses help relate what Paul was saying in 1 Corinthians 5:

Hebrews 10:

26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,​

27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.​

28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:​

29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?​

2 Peter 2:

20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Yahushua Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.​

21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.​

22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.​

Seek Yahweh!

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I have a theory about 2 Peter 2 that I can't prove scripturally. Maybe you have some insight.

I believe Adam was created to be immortal, just as the angels are immortal. He was perfect, mind, body and spirit. But when Adam sinned, his spirit became mortal. And all humans after that had mortal spirits. However, when their bodies died, their spirit remained alive waiting for the resurrection. The damned spirits were in outer darkness, and the righteous were in Abraham's bosom.

Then Jesus came and died providing us with the Holy Spirit. When we repented and became Christians, be became born again through the Holy Spirit and our spirits became immortal. Death had no more victory. And we were freed from sin and death. We started our journey walking in the Spirit in newness of life.

Now for 2 Peter 2. If a Christian with an immortal spirit is overcome with sin - "the latter end is worse with them than the beginning." I am thinking that is because hell was made for Satan and his angels - all immortal evil beings. Hell is a forever place. It was not made for mortal man. So the unrighteous mortal spirits will be utterly destroyed, but the person who rejected Christ after receiving an immortal spirit will be in hell forever. That would certainly be worse than if they never became Christians.

I just want to talk about the mortality or immortality of the human spirit. And if you know scriptures, which I can't find, that would be helpful. Some look to the eternity of hell and confuse that with the state of the spirit, believing that all spirits are immortal. I don't know. Not for sure anyway.

BobRyan said:

It "included" that.

And this

1 Peter 1
10 Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you, 11 searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow.

And this
John 8
56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.”

And this
Heb 4
2 For indeed we have had the Gospel preached to us, just as they also;

1 Cor 10:4 "they all drank from the same Spiritual Rock and that Rock was Christ"

Such that Moses and Elijah stand WITH Christ in glory in Matthew 17 -- BEFORE the cross.

Paul says "only ONE Gospel Gal 1:6-9
And that ONE Gospel "Was preached to Abraham" Gal 3:8



I am saying that the NEW Covenant is key to the Gospel and it has the LAW written on heart and mind instead of deleted - and that Paul was right ... only ONE Gospel in all of time and that one Gospel was preached in the OT.

And Paul was right to say "do we then make void the LAW of God by our fath? God forbid! In fact we ESTABLISH the LAW" Rom 3:31

Such that his NEW Testament statement is "it is not the hearers of the LAW that are just before God - but the DOERS of the LAW will be JUSTIFIED... on the day when according to my GOSPEL Do will judge" Rom 2:13-16

And as Phil 3 reminds us that Gospel promise to Abraham is in no way "deleted" by statements at Sinai about it being a sin to "take God's name in vain".

I like to call this -- "the easy part" that all of us could agree to.

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And Who is it that writes the laws on our heart? Christ's Spirit. Thus walking in the Spirit obeys the One who wrote them there. By walking in the Spirit we establish the law, not break it. And, btw, the Spirit does not take God's name in vain.

BobRyan said:

Agreed on both counts. One who walks in rebellion against the LAW of God is not walking in the Spirit.



Agreed.

My point exactly

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LOL We agree more than you think.

How I put it is, he who still sins either does not have the Spirit, or is quenching him.

Man is a triune being. Soul, spirit, and body. It is the body and mind that sin not our spirit.

"he who still sins either does not have the Spirit, or is quenching him."

But their is a huge difference between struggling with sin and willfully sinning. Paul sinned, the apostles sinned but they received the holy spirit. Do you not think they sinned after receiving the holy spirit? "We all stumble in many ways" It is also written
"If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us."
Have is past tenths and present. In a sense, we all should be struggling with sin because it means we are at war with our flesh(which is contrary to our spirit) and doing what we can to battle against it. That's why we need to fill up daily with scripture, the sword of the spirit. We live in a "sinful body daily" but have a choice to walk by the flesh or by the spirit. There is a paradox between our flesh and our spirit and its my educated guess that God put it there so sin could not intermingle between the two or that our spirit cannot become corrupt by sin as long as we remain in him. Remember our flesh is corrupt because of the decisions of Adam and Eve. Even Jesus said "why do you call me good? there is none good but one, that is, God." Jesus knew the flesh is corrupt but he resisted to the point of death. That still blows me away when I read that. Absolutely amazing...

I still come to tears every time I read in the gospels when he was nailed to the cross, because it was me that nailed him there...

BobRyan said:

He died for our sins... and in the NT "sin is transgression of the LAW of God" 1 John 3:4 those who accept the Gospel was enter in to the "New Covenant" of Hebrews 8:6-10 AND Jeremiah 31:31-33 that includes among other things -- the Law of God written on heart and mind.

John confirms this not only in John 14:15 but also in 1 John 2:3-6 and Revelation 14:12

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Is hate a transgression of the law of God?

BobRyan said:

He died for our sins... and in the NT "sin is transgression of the LAW of God" 1 John 3:4 those who accept the Gospel was enter in to the "New Covenant" of Hebrews 8:6-10 AND Jeremiah 31:31-33 that includes among other things -- the Law of God written on heart and mind.

John confirms this not only in John 14:15 but also in 1 John 2:3-6 and Revelation 14:12

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Um, ok. I agree. Just not sure what your point was...

1stcenturylady said:

Is hate a transgression of the law of God?

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Not in itself, no.

Leviticus 19:

You see how "neighbour" and "brother" are equated.


Again, "neighbour" is equated with "children of thy people."

The word "neighbour" really means "fellow" in the Hebrew.

Christ defines what a "brother" is very specifically:

Matthew 12:

So it's not a sin to hate those who do not the will of Yahweh, and are not considered His brothers, see Matthew 25:40.

Neal of Zebulun said:

Not in itself, no.

Leviticus 19:

17 Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin on him.​

You see how "neighbour" and "brother" are equated.

18 Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear a grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am Yahweh.​

Again, "neighbour" is equated with "children of thy people."

The word "neighbour" really means "fellow" in the Hebrew.

Christ defines what a "brother" is very specifically:

Matthew 12:

50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.​

So it's not a sin to hate those who do not the will of Yahweh, and are not considered His brothers, see Matthew 25:40.

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Who are our enemies that we are commanded to love?

1stcenturylady said:

Who are our enemies that we are commanded to love?

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If you read the entirety of Matthew 5:43-48, you'll notice that verse 48 is completely in the same context:

Matthew 5:

So the answer to your question is: the people that Yahweh loves, even in the way that He loves.

But not the people He hates.

Neal of Zebulun said:

If you read the entirety of Matthew 5:43-48, you'll notice that verse 48 is completely in the same context:

Matthew 5:

48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.​

So the answer to your question is: the people that Yahweh loves, even in the way that He loves.

But not the people He hates.

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I didn't see where God hated anyone. Acknowledging someone is "evil" is just truth about hating the sin in them, not the person. Is it His will they stay that way and be cast into hell? No! That is love.

1stcenturylady said:

I didn't see where God hated anyone. Acknowledging someone is "evil" is just truth about hating the sin in them, not the person. Is it His will they stay that way and be cast into hell? No! That is love.

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Amen... we are told that the destruction of the wicked is called His strange act because it is a dichotomy of His love. For the love and preservation of the universe, His perfect creation, He must destroy those He created and that He desperately loves and wishes would have made a different choice.

Isaiah 28:21
For the Lord shall rise up as in mount Perazim, he shall be wroth as in the valley of Gibeon, that he may do his work, his strange work; and bring to pass his act, his strange act.