GOD'S LAW AND THE SABBATH AND FOLLOWING MAN MADE TRADTIONS?

LoveGodsWord · Nov 2, 2017

Bob S said:
Hebrews 4 is the definitive passage regarding Jesus as our Sabbath rest. The writer to the Hebrews exhorts his readers to “enter in” to the Sabbath rest provided by Christ. After three chapters of telling them that Jesus is superior to the angels and that He is our Apostle and High Priest, he pleads with them to not harden their hearts against Him, as their fathers hardened their hearts against the Lord in the wilderness. Because of their unbelief, God denied that generation access to the holy land, saying, “They shall not enter into My rest” (Hebrews 3:11). In the same way, the writer to the Hebrews begs his readers not to make the same mistake by rejecting God’s Sabbath rest in Jesus Christ. “There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God; for anyone who enters God’s rest also rests from his own work, just as God did from his. Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will fall by following their example of disobedience” (Hebrews 4:9–11).

There is no other Sabbath rest besides Jesus. He alone satisfies the requirements of the Law, and He alone provides the sacrifice that atones for sin. He is God’s plan for us to cease from the labor of our own works. We dare not reject this one-and-only Way of salvation (John 14:6). God’s reaction to those who choose to reject His plan is seen in Numbers 15. A man was found gathering sticks on the Sabbath day, in spite of God’s plain commandment to cease from all labor on the Sabbath. This transgression was a known and willful sin, done with unblushing boldness in broad daylight, in open defiance of the divine authority. “Then the LORD said to Moses, ‘The man must die. The whole assembly must stone him outside the camp’” (verse 35). So it will be to all who reject God’s provision for our Sabbath rest in Christ. “How shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation?” (Hebrews 2:3).

The writer of Hebrews was directing the book to Jews. Had he been telling them they were to "keep" Sabbath he would have been "preaching to the choir". They were already ardent Sabbath keepers. They all knew the law concerning not turning their foot, thinking their own thoughts and all the other requirements. Yes Jesus our Rest is in You!

Pointing people to follow another persons interpretation of God's Word by pointing them to men instead of God's Word for me is a good example of what this OP is about by following the teachings and traditions of men over the Word of God. How do you really know if that persons interpretation of the scriptures is really true or false? Jesus says; If you continue in my Word you will know the truth and the truth will set you free not another mans interpretation of the scriptures.

Now looking at that interpretation of the Scripture's an honest seeker of truth should ask if that teaching was true where in God's Word does it say that Jesus is a Sabbath? Fact is there is no scripture that says this. That is read into that website. The only scriptures found about Jesus and God's Sabbath is the scripture that was left out after Mark 2:27 which reads v28 THEREFORE THE SON OF MAN IS LORD OF THE SABBATH. So the scriptures say that Jesus is the Lord of the Sabbath and the context of the scripture was about that it is ok to do good on the Sabbath because the Sabbath was made for mankind and Jesus is the Lord or creator of it. There is no scripture that says Jesus is a Sabbath. Just as there is no scripture that says that God's 4th commandment is abolished and we are now commanded to keep Sunday as a Holy day.

Sunday worship is a tradition of man that breaks the commandments of God. The teachings and traditions of man or the Word of God?. Jesus says if we follow the traditions of man over the Word of God we are not following God (Matthew 15:3-9)

Who should we believe God or man?

LoveGodsWord · Nov 2, 2017

This is what I get out of Hebrew 4 when I read it looking at each scripture ...........

HEBREWS 4

1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.
2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.
5 And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.
6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:
7 Again, he limited a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, Today if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.
9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.
12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Key Scripture points...............

* Fear that the promise being left us any of us should fall short of entering God’s rest (v1)
* The Gospel was preached to the people in the Wilderness as well as us. The Word did not profit those in the wilderness because of their unbelief (v2)
* For we which have believed do enter into His Rest. The people in the wilderness that did not believe God did not enter into His Rest even though works were finished from the foundation of the world (v3)
* Speaking of the 7th Day Sabbath and the last day of the creation week (Gen 2:1-3) (v4)
* God’s rest (Gen 2:1-3), those that believe enter into God’s 7th Day Sabbath rest those that do not believe do not enter into God’s 7th Day Sabbath rest (v5-6)
* Harden not your heart in unbelief (v7-8)
* There is a rest for the people of God (v9)
* Those that enter into God’s rest (Gen 2:1-3) cease from works as God did v10
* We should labour to enter into God’s rest (Gen 2:1-3) faith in God’s Word (rest through believing God) v11
* The Word of God is powerful. v12

Please go back and look at the Greek meaning of the word "rest" used in Heb 4:9 its meaning is resting through keeping of a Sabbath or Sabbath observance. (I have provided Greek links below)

Hebrews 4:9 (NAS)
“There remaineth therefore a [Sabbath] rest G4520 to the people of God.”

The Greek word literally means “Sabbath keeping” or “Sabbath observance.” (links below)

Strong's Concordance 4520
sabbatismos: a sabbath rest
Original Word: σαββατισμός, οῦ, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: sabbatismos
Phonetic Spelling: (sab-bat-is-mos')
Short Definition: a Sabbath rest
Definition: a keeping of the Sabbath, a Sabbath rest.

Strong's Greek 4520
σαββατισμὸς — 1 Occ.
Hebrews 4:9 N-NMS
GRK: ἄρα ἀπολείπεται σαββατισμὸς τῷ λαῷ
NAS: there remains a Sabbath rest for the people
KJV: therefore a rest to the people
INT: Then remains a sabbath rest to the people

Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 4520: σαββατισμός
σαββατισμός, σαββατισμου, ὁ (σαββατίζω to keep the sabbath); 1. a keeping sabbath. 2. the blessed rest from toils and troubles looked for in the age to come by the true worshippers of God and true Christians (R. V. sabbath rest): Hebrews 4:9. (Plutarch, de superstit. c. 3; ecclesiastical writings.)

So let’s pull Hebrews 4:1-12 all together?

The context is God’s rest from the week of creation on the 7th Day of the creation week (Heb 4:1-5). Those that did not enter into God’s rest (7th Day Sabbath) did not enter in because of their unbelief and disobedience (sins) to God’s Word. The Gospel was preached unto them but they did not believe it (Heb 4:2). God did not give them His true rest (Heb 4:5-8). This is the same warning for those that disobey Him and do not follow His Word. Only those that believe and obey God’s Word enter into his 7th Day Sabbath rest (Heb 4:6, 9, 10-12). So you can see Jesus is not a Sabbath. The Sabbath is the 7th Day of the Week. Jesus is Lord of this Day because he is the creator of this day (Heb 4:4; Mark 2:28).

There is no scripture in all of God’s Word that says that Jesus is a Sabbath only that he is the Lord of the Sabbath and he made it for all of mankind and commands us to keep it as a holy day as a memorial of creation (Mark 2:27-28; Gen 2:1-3; Ex 20:8-11)

There is no scripture that says that Jesus us a Sabbath. The same as there is no scripture that says God's 4th commandment is Abolished and we are now commanded to keep Sunday as a Holy day.

Sunday worship is a tradition of man that breaks the commandments of God. The teachings and traditions of man or the Word of God?. Jesus says if we follow the traditions of man over the Word of God we are not following God (Matthew 15:3-9)

Who should we believe God or man?

stuart lawrence · Nov 2, 2017

klutedavid said:
Hello Kenny.

So we can be on the same page.....

You will never be on the same page as some, no matter you may earnestly want to be:

But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code/law.
Rom7:6

Its one way or the other, it cannot be both. And people who follow the two different ways can never be on the same page

stuart lawrence · Nov 2, 2017

I have found those who rely on understanding the greek, plus, ie, strongs concordance do so, for their reliance is not on whom it should be to be led into spiritual truth. Few of these people therefore understand the true message of scripture.

One wonders how the first century church grew so rapidly. They had no concordonces to refer to. Nor did they have the 'benefit' of the ologies and isms later to be cast into stone as it were by the emergence of scholars and theologians who appeared shortly after the passing of the Apostles who wrote the NT.

And yet, the greatest power and most rapid growth ever seen in the christian church was seen before the emergence of these scholars and theologians, not after

omega2xx · Nov 2, 2017

LoveGodsWord said:
There are scriptures already provide for you but you have chosen not to see them.

None of the verses you quoted mention a day.

None of us will enter into God's Kingdom if we are living a life in unrepentant sin.

No one truly born again lives in unrepentant sin.

Are you going to answer my question about going to hell for not keeping Saturday Sabbath?

omega2xx · Nov 2, 2017

Kenny'sID said:
Or does it?

Not sure why you're seeing that when it actually says all that it says and not just the part you say it says.

Tale a look at the verse here in this post:

It's really saying "it's only a shadow of what is to come". So first off:

It's not even close to just saying its a shadow, but a shadow of things to come, two completely different statements.

A shadow of things to come is still a shadow.

So, what exactly does the verse, in full context, mean to you?

It is pointing to the Sabbath of the future(Heb 4:9) when we will see the object casting the shadow. Jesus is the substance that cast the shadow. It refers to those who are weary and heavy laden of trying to get to heaven by their good works. It is rest for our soul(Mt 11:28-30.

And I'm not sure why you are pushing the "only part" to mean Sabbath is unimportant...guess I'm just saying there is no scripture to back up the "only" part there means what you seem to be pushing it to mean. That is unless you can provide something?

If I can please get the answer to those 2 questions, I'll comment further.

I am pushing the "only. because it is in the verse, and I have even implied the Sabbath is not important. I don't know why you are ignoring it. Actually I do know, it refutes your unBiblical theology.

listed · Nov 2, 2017

bekkilyn said:
SDA do believe there are Jesus-loving Christians outside of their denomination, but that once a person is aware of "the truth" according to SDA doctrine, they are supposed to come away from those apostate denominations and join the SDA church, that they consider to be the true, remnant church of prophecy. Once this remnant has reached Christ-like perfection through appropriate obedience, then Jesus will be able to return.

If that is true Jesus is never coming back. Thier doctrine won't allow it.

Almost there · Nov 2, 2017

LoveGodsWord said:
For me this is the main reason for the OP. Who should we point people to, the teachings of man or the Word of God. In the last days we are told there will be many false teachers to deceive if possible God's very elect. Should we be pointing people to the teachings of men that break the commandments of God, or the Word of God?

We should be pointing people to the word of God. The problem is that people try to interpret it in ways that do not match the text.

A simple example John 3:16, for a lot of people, says, For God so loved the world that he gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not "suffer eternally in unending pain in a lake of fire", but have eternal life. Yet the part in quotes is not there. It is an "interpretation" of the word, "perish". And they interpret "death" in Romans 6:23 the same way.

And then others, when the bible speaks of Jesus' brothers, say, "well, it really means cousins, because 'everybody knows' Mary never, ever had sex." Yet there is no scripture to support that.

So yes, we need to apply the word of God, but ensure we are applying it correctly.

christianforumsuser · Nov 2, 2017

If you have sin in your heart it isn't me speaking man's words to say you have a problem
How can an evil spirit or sinful heart possibly go to Heaven...if someone does good deeds but it's called lawlessness apart from God's will and love
There's a mystery regarding how sin is passed...else a man repents daily in flesh but remains under the Law even if he says the name of some idol or god or a name of the true God Creator and Savior
Free gift, good news, no longer that shadow but a spiritual River. How does a man die with Him and become resurrected...just by...nobody cares do they? The debate keeps going in circles and sin, from that same unrepentant worldly heart.

listed · Nov 2, 2017

bekkilyn said:
I suppose I should amend it to say not an *eternal* hell. They believe that after the 1000 year millennium, the unbelievers will be raised from the dead and believers will then sit in judgment with Christ to determine the punishment of these unbelievers. There will be different levels of punishment based on their deeds, but then once the punishment is complete, then they will be destroyed and will then no longer exist. The punishment does not go on eternally.

They do not believe in a soul separate from the body, so if a person is dead, the body is in a sleep state, and there is no separate soul to either be in heaven or in hell. Once the bodies of unbelievers are resurrected and those bodies are permanently destroyed, those people simply cease to exist as if they never existed, because souls do not exist outside of the bodies according to SDA doctrine. This is the second death described in your quote above.

I think you're correct in this about their belief of body and soul.

Kenny'sID · Nov 2, 2017

klutedavid said:
So we can be on the same page, how about you indicate what commandments Paul and John are referring to?

Being on the same page is good, so I must ask, why are you asking me that? Or what claim did I make to push you to ask about something I don't recall claiming?

Kenny'sID · Nov 2, 2017

omega2xx said:
A shadow of things to come is still a shadow.

Hard to believe you are going to push me into saying this, but here goes. A shadow of things to come, is a shadow of thing to come.

The term by itself/without the "of things to come" can technically only mean "shadow" in it's simplest form/definition, and it makes absolutely no sense he is referring to that dark spot we leave on the ground when we stand between it and the sun.

The rest of the wording is critical to putting it in context, and makes it something other than a dark spot.

Forgive me, but again, I can't believe I have to explain this, however, I think I may know why this happens.

omega2xx said:
It is pointing to the Sabbath of the future(Heb 4:9) when we will see the object casting the shadow. Jesus is the substance that cast the shadow. It refers to those who are weary and heavy laden of trying to get to heaven by their good works. It is rest for our soul(Mt 11:28-30.

Heavy.

I'll have to look into that when I have more time, and I do hope it doesn't fall to pieces somewhere, and I find I just wasted my time.

But for the moment benefit of doubt, and if you feel the urge to explain in more detail how all that works with the verses you added, feel free, might help me understand better or something other than that... IDK.

omega2xx said:
I am pushing the "only. because it is in the verse, and I have even implied the Sabbath is not important. I don't know why you are ignoring it. Actually I do know, it refutes your unBiblical theology.

I realize it's in the verse... never indicated otherwise. You seemed to skip my point that the term "only" hardly means they are indicating the Sabbath is unimportant. Ignore it? Do I need to show you just where I addressed it? Strange comment, or do you mean I didn't buy what you are saying, in that "only" indicates the Sabbath is unimportant, and that equates to me ignoring it?

christianforumsuser · Nov 2, 2017

I haven't been follinw this whole thing nor reading so closely now but see at least the highlight of "shadow"
At least some fresh eyes and words if I can help at all, not just add more empty chatter
We can agree a shadow is a shadow. Maybe someone has an idea or miscommunicatoin, but maybe we can lay everything in light...rather than...dark..such as shadows
People and other obects are solid physical things, they are wielded and use and wield, a dent or scratch might appear and suggest it's quite a heavily used tool
Matte surfaces don't reflect and probably aren't translucent. So a shadow is cast
The old things are passing away, they served their purpose. It's been fulfilled and the sun rises.
If you're behind the object, do you not see its face but its back as Moses did?
Again, I think I rambeld a bit there and I don't really know if I helped...we're weak as men, acting godly without faith in Jesus Christ is like trying to follow him but in a lie lacking knowledge and faith.
You need to have a relationship with Him and His people have loving fellowship and rebuke. Whether a servant, carnal animal, son, daughter, what He says is true. He's the Master of the Sabbath and all.
Why be under the Law and in a shadow? Be in Him

klutedavid · Nov 2, 2017

Kenny'sID said:
Being on the same page is good, so I must ask, why are you asking me that? Or what claim did I make to push you to ask about something I don't recall claiming?

Hello Kenny'sID.

This is what you said in a previous post.

There are several verses in the NT that repeat the commandments

Click to expand...

Care to provide a verse to indicate which commandments you are referring to?

To believe in Jesus Christ is a commandment, are you referring to these verses for example?

Bob S · Nov 2, 2017

LoveGodsWord said:
Depends what you mean by being "Under the Law" what does it mean to you?

God's Word says in that context to be "Under the Law" means to be guilty before God of sin which is breaking God's Law (Romans 2:12-13; Romans 3:9; Romans 3:19; 1 John 3:4)

Dear Lgw, It is better if I do not engage in debate with you. It is not because I don't have answers to your posts. I get way to emotional reading what you write, so it is best that I disengage. I will continue to write generic posts that reflect what the New Testament is teaching. You are of course free to dispute. Let the readers decide. I have made my decision.

Sabbath "keeping" has nothing to do with our salvation and if it did no one would be saved.

Kenny'sID · Nov 2, 2017

christianforumsuser said:
Be in Him

Would that equate to doing what he says we are to do? It does to me.

And he says "If you love me, you will keep my commandments"

He also will say and is telling us something very important here:

41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’

Anyone disagree that we should keep his commandments?

Anyone disagree we should help those in need?

I mean of course, anyone who loves him. Obeying God doesn't meant we are under the law or depending on it to save us, as some would twist it. Faith without works is is dead, read it, it really IS in there...undeniably.

If that "faith without works" scripture doesn't mean to you what it clearly means to many of us, I CHALLENGE anyone here to tell us what it does mean? To be clear, it means to me that works/obeying God are a necessary part of faith, an absolute must, as I've proven here with just a little scripture. And before we fall off topic...the commandments fall into the category of obeying God..

Kenny'sID · Nov 2, 2017

As to the term "It is a Shadow of things to come". Lets separate that but be aware of all of it.

First we see "it is" meaning "it is" now/presently then or still in affect at the time, as in not "it was".

On the "things to come" part, a future incident, what are those things to come? I don't think anyone has proven those things have actually come as of yet as in the claim it was fulfilled with the crucifixion/resurrection. And even if it could be proven, it still doesn't say that those things to come will ever do away with a single commandment so lets not get lost in there and assume that.

christianforumsuser · Nov 2, 2017

Kenny'sID said:
Would that equate to doing what he says we are to do? It does to me.

And he says "If you love me, you will keep my commandments"

He also will say and is telling us something very important here:

41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’

Anyone disagree that we should keep his commandments?

Anyone disagree we should help those in need?

I mean of course, anyone who loves him. Obeying God doesn't meant we are under the law or depending on it to save us, as some would twist it. Faith without works is is dead, read it, it really IS in there...undeniably.

If that "faith without works" scripture doesn't mean to you what it clearly means to many of us, I CHALLENGE anyone here to tell us what it does mean? To be clear, it means to me that works/obeying God are a necessary part of faith, an absolute must, as I've proven here with just a little scripture. And before we fall off topic...the commandments fall into the category of obeying God..

Read His Word by faith, be of God not of the world.
Someone can show characteristics of a sheep or wheat but be a wolf or tare.
Of course as a man I might get upset about something and say someone didn't act the way I think is loving, but maybe in their culture and mind and flesh they consider everything they do good.
Moses had a brother. The flesh might boast in the law or have pleasure rolling in lawless filth calling it humble. Whether siding with arrogance or lowly things, the spirit in you matters.
You need to die with Him and be resurrected, but not in some abstract belief. As the law is a shadow of the new grace, no longer as the old Adam, but the New Adam, the greatest of those born of women baptized Him.
It's a matter of priority. I'm not arguing to do or not do good deeds. I don't control you. Flesh is born in this world. Worldly people might try to control you for their pleasure and use, but not care for you any more than is useful to them. Flesh likes the things it can see and will even use Scripture to say "look, God agrees with ME"
Have faith in His works

Kenny'sID · Nov 2, 2017

klutedavid said:
Care to provide a verse to indicate which commandments you are referring to?

You already mentioned one, and brought up "Idolatry" on your own, so I'm still at a loss....you know of a verse, yet you ask.

You're clearly trying to steer this in a direction that you hope will end in you making a point, so could you please cut to the chase?

Kenny'sID · Nov 2, 2017

christianforumsuser said:
Read His Word by faith, be of God not of the world.
Someone can show characteristics of a sheep or wheat but be a wolf or tare.
Of course as a man I might get upset about something and say someone didn't act the way I think is loving, but maybe in their culture and mind and flesh they consider everything they do good.
Moses had a brother. The flesh might boast in the law or have pleasure rolling in lawless filth calling it humble. Whether siding with arrogance or lowly things, the spirit in you matters.
You need to die with Him and be resurrected, but not in some abstract belief. As the law is a shadow of the new grace, no longer as the old Adam, but the New Adam, the greatest of those born of women baptized Him.
It's a matter of priority. I'm not arguing to do or not do good deeds. I don't control you. Flesh is born in this world. Worldly people might try to control you for their pleasure and use, but not care for you any more than is useful to them. Flesh likes the things it can see and will even use Scripture to say "look, God agrees with ME"
Have faith in His works

OK, here I go again.

First, a simple question...are you saying no works are necessary to enter the kingdom of God/get to heaven/be saved in the end?

GOD'S LAW AND THE SABBATH AND FOLLOWING MAN MADE TRADTIONS?

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