GOD'S LAW AND THE SABBATH AND FOLLOWING MAN MADE TRADTIONS?

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LoveGodsWord

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THERE IS NOTHING NEW UNDER THE SUN - GOD'S WORD vs TRADITIONS OF MEN

The very same topics that we discuss here was also discussed in the day of Jesus. The mainstream preachers of Christ's time all claimed to be Children of God because their claim was that they were the Children of Abraham right? This was their claim to being God's people.

JOHN 8
33 They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how say thou, Ye shall be made free?

They claimed belief on the God of Abraham, they claimed to be in bondage to no man. But what did Jesus tell them...............?

34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever commits sin is the servant of sin.

39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.

40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.

44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.

There is more on this engagement between Jesus and the Mainstream God of Abraham preachers of His time in John 8.

Certainly the Pharisees studied the bible as it existed then. AS did Jesus.

Luke 24:27
And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

Yet these two factions, Jesus and the Mainstream preachers of His time had almost opposite understandings of the Bible.

It is fair to say not all Jews of that time had the same understanding as the Mainstream Preachers.

Luke 1:5
There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.

6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

So there seems to be a trend here.

The Mainstream Preachers claimed to be God's people, they read God's Words, yet they "Transgressed the Commandments of God by their own doctrines and traditions." (Matthew 15:3-9)

Yet there is no indication that Zacharias or Jesus did this and followed them.

So we have one example of understanding that was gained by study in obedience to the instructions in God's Word, ( Zacharias and Jesus)

And another example of study in disobedience to the instructions of God's Word. (Mainstream preachers of that time)

There were more than just Zacharias.

Matthew 2:1
Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king, behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem,

2 Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him.

Here is another example of people who had a completely different understanding than the Mainstream preachers of that time. Is it wrong to assume that they, like Zacharias, also studied in obedience to the instruction?

And Peter, which side of this topic did he fall on?

Acts 5:32
And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

33 When they heard that, they were cut to the heart, and took counsel to slay them.

Now why was it that the Jews sought to persecute Jesus and the prophets? It was because they refused to obey the instruction of God, and created their own instructions, and the other example did not.

So fast forward to today. We have a Mainstream Christian teaching that "Transgresses the Commandments of God by their own traditions and doctrines."

This is not a judgment, rather, a simple fact.

It is Mainstream Christian Tradition to transgress God's Sabbath Commandment and replace it with the Catholic Sabbath (Sunday worship). It is Mainstream Christian Tradition to create images of God in the likeness of some long haired men's shampoo model, transgressing the first and greatest commandment.
It is Mainstream Christian Tradition to transgress God's Food Laws, and create their own definition of clean and unclean.

So it seems that even today, if a person studies in obedience to God's simple instructions he see's the scripture one way.

If a person studies scripture in disobedience following the traditions and teachings of man in place of God's Word and to God's simple instructions, he sees the scripture in another way.

I believe what Peter taught, that the Holy Spirit (Spirit of Truth) is given to those who do not "Transgress the Commandments of God by their own religious doctrines and traditions.

But I also know from Peter and Jesus that this belief will infuriate "many" who come in Christ's/God's name.

23 "When they heard that, they were cut to the heart, and took counsel to slay them."

Matthew 10:22
And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endures to the end shall be saved."

My hope is that you might consider these words and understand.

John 3:19
And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. (Is it evil or righteous to transgress the commandments of God by doctrines and traditions of men?)

20 For every one that doeth evil (Transgress God's Commandments by their own Traditions) hates the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

Is this why the Mainstream preachers of Peters time set about to kill or silence Peter, so he wouldn't expose their transgression of God's Commandments?

21 But he that does truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest,.(let your light shine) that they are wrought in God.

So a circle complete once again. Those who live a doctrine created (wrought) by God have a different understanding than those who live a doctrine created by man who follow the traditions of man. The above was shared with me recently by a friend. I hope it was a blessing to you as it was for me.

Now the important question is who should we obey God or man...............?

The Jews (Pharisees/Lawyers) had placed so many restrictions on the Sabbath commandment through there man made traditions that it had become a burden to the people and was nearly impossible to keep (Luke 13:14; John 5:10-18; 9:16; etc.).

This was never how the Sabbath was to be kept. What did Jesus teach us about the Sabbath? Let's look to the Word of God.....

1. It is lawful to do good on the Sabbath (Matt 12:1-8; 10-12; 24:20; Mark 3:1-5; Luke 6:1-10; 13:14-16; 14:1-5; John 7:22-23; 9:14; Mark 1:21; Mark 6:2; Luke 4:16; 31; Luke 14:1; 23:56)
2. Jesus made the Sabbath for all mankind (Mark 2:27)
3. Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath (Mark 2:28)
4. If you do not believe and follow God you cannot enter His Sabbath rest (Hebrews 4)
5. It is one of God’s 10 commandments we break it we are guilty or breaking all (James 2:8-12)
6. Breaking it is sin (1 John 3:4)
7. God’s true followers keep it Holy as God commanded (Rev 14:12; Rev 22:14; Eze 20:20)
8. Jesus is our example and he kept the Sabbath (Matt 12:1-8; 10-12; 24:20; Mark 3:1-5; Luke 6:1-10; 13:14-16; 14:1-5; John 7:22-23; 9:14; Mark 1:21; Mark 6:2; Luke 4:16; 31; Luke 14:1; 23:56; John 2:6; Matt 16:24; 1 Cor 11:1; Eph 5:1-21; Pet 2:20-22)
9. The Apostle kept the Sabbath (Acts 13:14; 13:27; 13:44; 15:21; 16:13; 17:2; 18:4; Rev 1:10)

God’s Law in the NC is written on our hearts it is through love and it is love that fulfills God’s Law in us as we walk not after the flesh but after the spirit and is why Jesus says f you love me keep my commandments. (John 14:15; John 15:10). If we knowingly and willfully break one of God’s commandments we commit sin (1 John 3:4). This includes the 7th Day Sabbath which Jesus made for us and commands us to keep as a holy day.

God gives us the other six days to labor and work and do whatever we like. We worship God everyday but the 7th Day God says is a Holy day that God has made for His people. Jesus is the maker of this day. It is the "Lords Day" and God has commanded us to keep it Holy (Mark 2:27-28; Exodus 20:8-11). The Sabbath is a sign that we worship the only true God of creation (Ezekiel 20:12). We follow Jesus because we love him (John 14:15;15:10). Love is the fulfilling of God's Law in us as we walk by faith in the Spirit.

May God bless you as you seek him through His Word.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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The tradition of Sunday worship and how God's 4th commandment was changed from Saturday to Sunday within Christianity through the teachings of man over the Word of God.....


Who should we obey God or man?
 
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Devin P

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THERE IS NOTHING NEW UNDER THE SUN - GOD'S WORD vs TRADITIONS OF MEN

The very same topics that we discuss here was also discussed in the day of Jesus. The mainstream preachers of Christ's time all claimed to be Children of God because their claim was that they were the Children of Abraham right? This was their claim to being God's people.

JOHN 8
33 They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how say thou, Ye shall be made free?

They claimed belief on the God of Abraham, they claimed to be in bondage to no man. But what did Jesus tell them...............?

34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever commits sin is the servant of sin.

39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.

40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.

44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.

There is more on this engagement between Jesus and the Mainstream God of Abraham preachers of His time in John 8.

Certainly the Pharisees studied the bible as it existed then. AS did Jesus.

Luke 24:27
And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

Yet these two factions, Jesus and the Mainstream preachers of His time had almost opposite understandings of the Bible.

It is fair to say not all Jews of that time had the same understanding as the Mainstream Preachers.

Luke 1:5
There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.

6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

So there seems to be a trend here.

The Mainstream Preachers claimed to be God's people, they read God's Words, yet they "Transgressed the Commandments of God by their own doctrines and traditions." (Matthew 15:3-9)

Yet there is no indication that Zacharias or Jesus did this and followed them.

So we have one example of understanding that was gained by study in obedience to the instructions in God's Word, ( Zacharias and Jesus)

And another example of study in disobedience to the instructions of God's Word. (Mainstream preachers of that time)

There were more than just Zacharias.

Matthew 2:1
Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king, behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem,

2 Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him.

Here is another example of people who had a completely different understanding than the Mainstream preachers of that time. Is it wrong to assume that they, like Zacharias, also studied in obedience to the instruction?

And Peter, which side of this topic did he fall on?

Acts 5:32
And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

33 When they heard that, they were cut to the heart, and took counsel to slay them.

Now why was it that the Jews sought to persecute Jesus and the prophets? It was because they refused to obey the instruction of God, and created their own instructions, and the other example did not.

So fast forward to today. We have a Mainstream Christian teaching that "Transgresses the Commandments of God by their own traditions and doctrines."

This is not a judgment, rather, a simple fact.

It is Mainstream Christian Tradition to transgress God's Sabbath Commandment and replace it with the Catholic Sabbath (Sunday worship). It is Mainstream Christian Tradition to create images of God in the likeness of some long haired men's shampoo model, transgressing the first and greatest commandment.
It is Mainstream Christian Tradition to transgress God's Food Laws, and create their own definition of clean and unclean.

So it seems that even today, if a person studies in obedience to God's simple instructions he see's the scripture one way.

If a person studies scripture in disobedience following the traditions and teachings of man in place of God's Word and to God's simple instructions, he sees the scripture in another way.

I believe what Peter taught, that the Holy Spirit (Spirit of Truth) is given to those who do not "Transgress the Commandments of God by their own religious doctrines and traditions.

But I also know from Peter and Jesus that this belief will infuriate "many" who come in Christ's/God's name.

23 "When they heard that, they were cut to the heart, and took counsel to slay them."

Matthew 10:22
And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endures to the end shall be saved."

My hope is that you might consider these words and understand.

John 3:19
And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. (Is it evil or righteous to transgress the commandments of God by doctrines and traditions of men?)

20 For every one that doeth evil (Transgress God's Commandments by their own Traditions) hates the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

Is this why the Mainstream preachers of Peters time set about to kill or silence Peter, so he wouldn't expose their transgression of God's Commandments?

21 But he that does truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest,.(let your light shine) that they are wrought in God.

So a circle complete once again. Those who live a doctrine created (wrought) by God have a different understanding than those who live a doctrine created by man who follow the traditions of man. The above was shared with me recently by a friend. I hope it was a blessing to you as it was for me.

Now the important question is who should we obey God or man...............?

The Jews (Pharisees/Lawyers) had placed so many restrictions on the Sabbath commandment through there man made traditions that it had become a burden to the people and was nearly impossible to keep (Luke 13:14; John 5:10-18; 9:16; etc.).

This was never how the Sabbath was to be kept. What did Jesus teach us about the Sabbath? Let's look to the Word of God.....

1. It is lawful to do good on the Sabbath (Matt 12:1-8; 10-12; 24:20; Mark 3:1-5; Luke 6:1-10; 13:14-16; 14:1-5; John 7:22-23; 9:14; Mark 1:21; Mark 6:2; Luke 4:16; 31; Luke 14:1; 23:56)
2. Jesus made the Sabbath for all mankind (Mark 2:27)
3. Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath (Mark 2:28)
4. If you do not believe and follow God you cannot enter His Sabbath rest (Hebrews 4)
5. It is one of God’s 10 commandments we break it we are guilty or breaking all (James 2:8-12)
6. Breaking it is sin (1 John 3:4)
7. God’s true followers keep it Holy as God commanded (Rev 14:12; Rev 22:14; Eze 20:20)
8. Jesus is our example and he kept the Sabbath (Matt 12:1-8; 10-12; 24:20; Mark 3:1-5; Luke 6:1-10; 13:14-16; 14:1-5; John 7:22-23; 9:14; Mark 1:21; Mark 6:2; Luke 4:16; 31; Luke 14:1; 23:56; John 2:6; Matt 16:24; 1 Cor 11:1; Eph 5:1-21; Pet 2:20-22)
9. The Apostle kept the Sabbath (Acts 13:14; 13:27; 13:44; 15:21; 16:13; 17:2; 18:4; Rev 1:10)

God’s Law in the NC is written on our hearts it is through love and it is love that fulfills God’s Law in us as we walk not after the flesh but after the spirit and is why Jesus says f you love me keep my commandments. (John 14:15; John 15:10). If we knowingly and willfully break one of God’s commandments we commit sin (1 John 3:4). This includes the 7th Day Sabbath which Jesus made for us and commands us to keep as a holy day.

God gives us the other six days to labor and work and do whatever we like. We worship God everyday but the 7th Day God says is a Holy day that God has made for His people. Jesus is the maker of this day. It is the "Lords Day" and God has commanded us to keep it Holy (Mark 2:27-28; Exodus 20:8-11). The Sabbath is a sign that we worship the only true God of creation (Ezekiel 20:12). We follow Jesus because we love him (John 14:15;15:10). Love is the fulfilling of God's Law in us as we walk by faith in the Spirit.

May God bless you as you seek him through His Word.
I agree 100%, I'm definitely glad that you love God and are wanting to spread His truth abroad. I'm amazingly glad that you're here brother! How was it accepting the truth? Easy as cake, or was it a tough pill to swallow at first?
 
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WindHund

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The tradition of Sunday worship and how God's 4th commandment was changed from Saturday to Sunday through the teachings of man over the Word of God.....

I like the video very much, but for clarity ... it is done with an actor using actual words published by members of the RC church.
 
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Kenny'sID

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Not sure what Catholics do but concerning the basics of what you are saying about the Sabbath, and though I didn't read all your post, I'm assuming you are a 7th day, sunset to sunset Sabbath keeper.

Again, assuming that is a fact, what are we going to do with this verse?

16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

I ask because I'm still on the fence about this, and if my assumptions were wrong, then never mind. :)
 
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bugkiller

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THERE IS NOTHING NEW UNDER THE SUN - GOD'S WORD vs TRADITIONS OF MEN

The very same topics that we discuss here was also discussed in the day of Jesus. The mainstream preachers of Christ's time all claimed to be Children of God because their claim was that they were the Children of Abraham right? This was their claim to being God's people.

JOHN 8
33 They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how say thou, Ye shall be made free?

They claimed belief on the God of Abraham, they claimed to be in bondage to no man. But what did Jesus tell them...............?

34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever commits sin is the servant of sin.

39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.

40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.

44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.

There is more on this engagement between Jesus and the Mainstream God of Abraham preachers of His time in John 8.

Certainly the Pharisees studied the bible as it existed then. AS did Jesus.

Luke 24:27
And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

Yet these two factions, Jesus and the Mainstream preachers of His time had almost opposite understandings of the Bible.

It is fair to say not all Jews of that time had the same understanding as the Mainstream Preachers.

Luke 1:5
There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.

6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

So there seems to be a trend here.

The Mainstream Preachers claimed to be God's people, they read God's Words, yet they "Transgressed the Commandments of God by their own doctrines and traditions." (Matthew 15:3-9)

Yet there is no indication that Zacharias or Jesus did this and followed them.

So we have one example of understanding that was gained by study in obedience to the instructions in God's Word, ( Zacharias and Jesus)

And another example of study in disobedience to the instructions of God's Word. (Mainstream preachers of that time)

There were more than just Zacharias.

Matthew 2:1
Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king, behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem,

2 Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him.

Here is another example of people who had a completely different understanding than the Mainstream preachers of that time. Is it wrong to assume that they, like Zacharias, also studied in obedience to the instruction?

And Peter, which side of this topic did he fall on?

Acts 5:32
And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

33 When they heard that, they were cut to the heart, and took counsel to slay them.

Now why was it that the Jews sought to persecute Jesus and the prophets? It was because they refused to obey the instruction of God, and created their own instructions, and the other example did not.

So fast forward to today. We have a Mainstream Christian teaching that "Transgresses the Commandments of God by their own traditions and doctrines."

This is not a judgment, rather, a simple fact.

It is Mainstream Christian Tradition to transgress God's Sabbath Commandment and replace it with the Catholic Sabbath (Sunday worship). It is Mainstream Christian Tradition to create images of God in the likeness of some long haired men's shampoo model, transgressing the first and greatest commandment.
It is Mainstream Christian Tradition to transgress God's Food Laws, and create their own definition of clean and unclean.

So it seems that even today, if a person studies in obedience to God's simple instructions he see's the scripture one way.

If a person studies scripture in disobedience following the traditions and teachings of man in place of God's Word and to God's simple instructions, he sees the scripture in another way.

I believe what Peter taught, that the Holy Spirit (Spirit of Truth) is given to those who do not "Transgress the Commandments of God by their own religious doctrines and traditions.

But I also know from Peter and Jesus that this belief will infuriate "many" who come in Christ's/God's name.

23 "When they heard that, they were cut to the heart, and took counsel to slay them."

Matthew 10:22
And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endures to the end shall be saved."

My hope is that you might consider these words and understand.

John 3:19
And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. (Is it evil or righteous to transgress the commandments of God by doctrines and traditions of men?)

20 For every one that doeth evil (Transgress God's Commandments by their own Traditions) hates the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

Is this why the Mainstream preachers of Peters time set about to kill or silence Peter, so he wouldn't expose their transgression of God's Commandments?

21 But he that does truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest,.(let your light shine) that they are wrought in God.

So a circle complete once again. Those who live a doctrine created (wrought) by God have a different understanding than those who live a doctrine created by man who follow the traditions of man. The above was shared with me recently by a friend. I hope it was a blessing to you as it was for me.

Now the important question is who should we obey God or man...............?

The Jews (Pharisees/Lawyers) had placed so many restrictions on the Sabbath commandment through there man made traditions that it had become a burden to the people and was nearly impossible to keep (Luke 13:14; John 5:10-18; 9:16; etc.).

This was never how the Sabbath was to be kept. What did Jesus teach us about the Sabbath? Let's look to the Word of God.....

1. It is lawful to do good on the Sabbath (Matt 12:1-8; 10-12; 24:20; Mark 3:1-5; Luke 6:1-10; 13:14-16; 14:1-5; John 7:22-23; 9:14; Mark 1:21; Mark 6:2; Luke 4:16; 31; Luke 14:1; 23:56)
2. Jesus made the Sabbath for all mankind (Mark 2:27)
3. Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath (Mark 2:28)
4. If you do not believe and follow God you cannot enter His Sabbath rest (Hebrews 4)
5. It is one of God’s 10 commandments we break it we are guilty or breaking all (James 2:8-12)
6. Breaking it is sin (1 John 3:4)
7. God’s true followers keep it Holy as God commanded (Rev 14:12; Rev 22:14; Eze 20:20)
8. Jesus is our example and he kept the Sabbath (Matt 12:1-8; 10-12; 24:20; Mark 3:1-5; Luke 6:1-10; 13:14-16; 14:1-5; John 7:22-23; 9:14; Mark 1:21; Mark 6:2; Luke 4:16; 31; Luke 14:1; 23:56; John 2:6; Matt 16:24; 1 Cor 11:1; Eph 5:1-21; Pet 2:20-22)
9. The Apostle kept the Sabbath (Acts 13:14; 13:27; 13:44; 15:21; 16:13; 17:2; 18:4; Rev 1:10)

God’s Law in the NC is written on our hearts it is through love and it is love that fulfills God’s Law in us as we walk not after the flesh but after the spirit and is why Jesus says f you love me keep my commandments. (John 14:15; John 15:10). If we knowingly and willfully break one of God’s commandments we commit sin (1 John 3:4). This includes the 7th Day Sabbath which Jesus made for us and commands us to keep as a holy day.

God gives us the other six days to labor and work and do whatever we like. We worship God everyday but the 7th Day God says is a Holy day that God has made for His people. Jesus is the maker of this day. It is the "Lords Day" and God has commanded us to keep it Holy (Mark 2:27-28; Exodus 20:8-11). The Sabbath is a sign that we worship the only true God of creation (Ezekiel 20:12). We follow Jesus because we love him (John 14:15;15:10). Love is the fulfilling of God's Law in us as we walk by faith in the Spirit.

May God bless you as you seek him through His Word.
Since you claim to love God's Word and quote John, my prayer for you and everyone else is that you will read and study what is actually there. I would give you specific verses but you would only ignore or twist them.

bugkiller
 
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bugkiller

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The tradition of Sunday worship and how God's 4th commandment was changed from Saturday to Sunday through the teachings of man over the Word of God.....


Who should we obey God or man?
Let them claim anything they wish. Claiming something does not make it true. The historical evidence is Christians worshiped on Sunday long before the RCC came to power.

bugkiller
 
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Devin P

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Not sure what Catholics do but concerning the basics of what you are saying about the Sabbath, and though I didn't read all your post, I'm assuming you are a 7th day, sunset to sunset Sabbath keeper.

Again, assuming that is a fact, what are we going to do with this verse?

16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:


I see this verse being mentioned a lot. But, and I could be wrong about this, I'm not saying I'm 100% all the time, but the facts that we know are these:

Paul wrote this to a church of gentile-converts.
The land these converts were living in, was a gentile nation, filled with gentiles.

Knowing the two sentences above are fact, I have a few questions to ask you.

16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

"Judge you in meat,"
now, he's writing to gentiles that are in a land that doesn't know God. They don't know about the food laws, so, why if they didn't have to keep the levitical food laws, would they be being judged in what meat they were eating? They're among gentiles, that don't know God, or His food laws, so we can safely assume that if they were eating all meat, since all the other gentiles they were around did the same thing, that they wouldn't be judged for eating all meat, but instead that they'd be judged for not eating certain types of meats.

"or in drink," - again, they're surrounded by gentiles that don't know about God, and His desire for us to have self-control. These gentiles, and all gentiles at this time in history celebrated many different feasts to pagan gods. Feast of saturnalia, ishtar, etc. My point is, their feasts, involved getting not only insanely drunk, but also publicly drunk. So, if the churches Paul was writing to were getting drunk constantly, why would they be getting judged, as gentiles at this time (and even today) highly regard the usage of alcohol.

They wouldn't be right. The churches Paul is writing would only be judged if they were abstaining, or limiting themselves much more than their non-God fearing counterparts.

"or in respect of an holy day," Gentiles didn't have holy days, the only holy days that men had at this point in time historically (as the word we use as "holiday" didn't exist until much later than the time of this letter, and originates from a hindu festival called holi that venerates krishna, a spring sun-god of hinduism) and the only "holy days" they had, were the Holy Days of God. Or the Moadim / Appointed Times. Why would gentiles in their land judge them if they could just worship God through any festival / holiday they wanted? They'd be participating, so there wouldn't be reason to - unless, they were observing different days of worship, to a different God.

"or of the new moon" Why would gentiles observe new moons? At this point in time when the letter was written, it was about 10 years after Caesar implemented his own version of the calendar. The calendar that the gentiles used at the time of this letter Paul wrote, was going off of phases and observance of the sun. Gentiles had no need to observe new moons in accordance with the moon. A new moon is how the Hebrews (what the Israelites of the bible are - Hebrews) know when a new month happens.

The hebraic calendar is based off of a phase of the moon, known as a new moon. Each new moon, the calendar moves into a new month. This had no affect on gentiles historically, nor does it today. So the gentiles of this time wouldn't of known what they were, and therefore would've judged those going off of this calendar as opposed to the calendar that observed the sun's coming and going. New moons are also how the Hebraic calendar keeps track of when God's appointed feasts are - as it is written the sun and the moon and stars are for signs of times and years for His people.

I ask because I'm still on the fence about this, and if my assumptions were wrong, then never mind. :)[/QUOTE]
It's no worries, hopefully it wasn't too long for you to read. I'm not 100% right all the time, but I have done some pretty extensive studies on the time that Paul wrote this letter, and the times the calendars were changed, as well as what the pagans of this land, and time believed and observed. He's basically saying stand strong in the faith, and don't let the people of the land you live in discourage you when you see how the pagans were living in their land during this time. Especially since in corinthians he gives the church instructions on how to keep the feast of unleavened bread, which means that they were also observing passover, because they go hand in hand.
 
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Devin P

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Let them claim anything they wish. Claiming something does not make it true. The historical evidence is Christians worshiped on Sunday long before the RCC came to power.

bugkiller
True. They started doing it in about 321 ad, when Constantine passed a law that gave him and rome authority to excommunicate anyone found worshipping on the 7th day, and later when this failed to stop them, it was the norm for those found worshipping on the 7th day to be killed until they all were wiped out or submitted to the power and authority of Rome.
 
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bekkilyn

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I don't have any issues at all with people keeping the Sabbath or worship on the Sabbath (or any any other day of the week), and I respect that the SDA church and other seventh day Christians worship on Saturday instead of Sunday, but Constantine and/or the Roman Catholic Church did not move the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday. The Sabbath is Saturday and Sunday is the day of the Lord's resurrection, which is what Christians who worship on Sunday are celebrating.

Per Justin Martyr (150 A.D. centuries before Constantine)

Chapter 67. Weekly worship of the Christians.
And we afterwards continually remind each other of these things.

And the wealthy among us help the needy; and we always keep together; and for all things wherewith we are supplied, we bless the Maker of all through His Son Jesus Christ, and through the Holy Ghost.

And on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things.

Then we all rise together and pray, and, as we before said, when our prayer is ended, bread and wine and water are brought, and the president in like manner offers prayers and thanksgivings, according to his ability, and the people assent, saying Amen; and there is a distribution to each, and a participation of that over which thanks have been given, and to those who are absent a portion is sent by the deacons.

And they who are well to do, and willing, give what each thinks fit; and what is collected is deposited with the president, who succours the orphans and widows and those who, through sickness or any other cause, are in want, and those who are in bonds and the strangers sojourning among us, and in a word takes care of all who are in need.

But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Saviour on the same day rose from the dead.

For He was crucified on the day before that of Saturn (Saturday); and on the day after that of Saturn, which is the day of the Sun, having appeared to His apostles and disciples, He taught them these things, which we have submitted to you also for your consideration.
 
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Devin P

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Let them claim anything they wish. Claiming something does not make it true. The historical evidence is Christians worshiped on Sunday long before the RCC came to power.

bugkiller
Constantine, and many others in Rome hated Jews, and anyone and anything that seemed Jewish. Torah, isn't Jewish. Torah was given to Israel, of which, Jews are only one tribe of 12. So, anyone keeping Torah, to an uninformed gentile (early romans) seemed Jewish.

"Let all the judges and town people, and the occupation of all trades, rest on the venerable day of the sun, but let those who are situated in the country, freely and at full liberty, attend to the business of agriculture; because it often happens that no other day is so fit for sowing corn and planting vines; lest the critical moment being let slip, men should lose the commodities granted by heaven" - Constantine 321 ad

Right after this he started excommunicating those found keeping the 7th day sabbath, and even went as far as to kill them, until he died. Eventually they were either killed, they moved, or they submitted.

"Christians shall not Judaize and be idle on Saturday [in the original: 'sabbato' -shall not be idle on the Sabbath], but shall work on that day; but the Lord's day they shall especially honour, and as being Christians, shall, if possible, do no work on that day. If, however, they are found Judaizing, they shall be shut out" ['anathema,' excommunicated] from Christ." - Council of Laodicean,

"It is certain that the ancient Sabbath did remain and was observed (together with the celebration of the Lord's day) by the Christians of the East Church, above three hundred years after our Saviour's death." "A Learned Treatise of the Sabbath," p. 77
 
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Devin P

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I don't have any issues at all with people keeping the Sabbath or worship on the Sabbath (or any any other day of the week), and I respect that the SDA church and other seventh day Christians worship on Saturday instead of Sunday, but Constantine and/or the Roman Catholic Church did not move the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday. The Sabbath is Saturday and Sunday is the day of the Lord's resurrection, which is what Christians who worship on Sunday are celebrating.

Per Justin Martyr (150 A.D. centuries before Constantine)

Chapter 67. Weekly worship of the Christians.
And we afterwards continually remind each other of these things.

And the wealthy among us help the needy; and we always keep together; and for all things wherewith we are supplied, we bless the Maker of all through His Son Jesus Christ, and through the Holy Ghost.

And on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things.

Then we all rise together and pray, and, as we before said, when our prayer is ended, bread and wine and water are brought, and the president in like manner offers prayers and thanksgivings, according to his ability, and the people assent, saying Amen; and there is a distribution to each, and a participation of that over which thanks have been given, and to those who are absent a portion is sent by the deacons.

And they who are well to do, and willing, give what each thinks fit; and what is collected is deposited with the president, who succours the orphans and widows and those who, through sickness or any other cause, are in want, and those who are in bonds and the strangers sojourning among us, and in a word takes care of all who are in need.

But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Saviour on the same day rose from the dead.

For He was crucified on the day before that of Saturn (Saturday); and on the day after that of Saturn, which is the day of the Sun, having appeared to His apostles and disciples, He taught them these things, which we have submitted to you also for your consideration.
There's no need to keep sabbath on sunday though. That is what the sabbath is meant for. For fellowship, for rest, and for worshipping God. Right now, that isn't what it's used for. Jesus wanted His followers to keep torah, He wouldn't want His followers to use His resurrection to transgress God, but because of Constantine, and the RCC (it's founders, and leaders, not it's followers) it's been used to do exactly that.

I'm definitely not saying that you can't worship God on sunday, or any other day of the week. But sunday or tuesday or wednesday worship shouldn't do away with the sabbath of the 7th day, regardless of if Jesus was resurrected on the 1st day or not. We can definitely celebrate on the 1st day, but the 7th day holds a special place in God's heart, and we should still try our best to honor it for the love we have of Him. As Jesus said, His doctrine is not His own. It was His Father's, and His Father's highly esteemed the sabbath. To the utmost actually.
 
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Kenny'sID

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I see this verse being mentioned a lot. But, and I could be wrong about this, I'm not saying I'm 100% all the time, but the facts that we know are these:

Paul wrote this to a church of gentile-converts.
The land these converts were living in, was a gentile nation, filled with gentiles.

Knowing the two sentences above are fact, I have a few questions to ask you.

16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

"Judge you in meat,"
now, he's writing to gentiles that are in a land that doesn't know God. They don't know about the food laws, so, why if they didn't have to keep the levitical food laws, would they be being judged in what meat they were eating? They're among gentiles, that don't know God, or His food laws, so we can safely assume that if they were eating all meat, since all the other gentiles they were around did the same thing, that they wouldn't be judged for eating all meat, but instead that they'd be judged for not eating certain types of meats.

"or in drink," - again, they're surrounded by gentiles that don't know about God, and His desire for us to have self-control. These gentiles, and all gentiles at this time in history celebrated many different feasts to pagan gods. Feast of saturnalia, ishtar, etc. My point is, their feasts, involved getting not only insanely drunk, but also publicly drunk. So, if the churches Paul was writing to were getting drunk constantly, why would they be getting judged, as gentiles at this time (and even today) highly regard the usage of alcohol.

They wouldn't be right. The churches Paul is writing would only be judged if they were abstaining, or limiting themselves much more than their non-God fearing counterparts.

"or in respect of an holy day," Gentiles didn't have holy days, the only holy days that men had at this point in time historically (as the word we use as "holiday" didn't exist until much later than the time of this letter, and originates from a hindu festival called holi that venerates krishna, a spring sun-god of hinduism) and the only "holy days" they had, were the Holy Days of God. Or the Moadim / Appointed Times. Why would gentiles in their land judge them if they could just worship God through any festival / holiday they wanted? They'd be participating, so there wouldn't be reason to - unless, they were observing different days of worship, to a different God.

"or of the new moon" Why would gentiles observe new moons? At this point in time when the letter was written, it was about 10 years after Caesar implemented his own version of the calendar. The calendar that the gentiles used at the time of this letter Paul wrote, was going off of phases and observance of the sun. Gentiles had no need to observe new moons in accordance with the moon. A new moon is how the Hebrews (what the Israelites of the bible are - Hebrews) know when a new month happens.

The hebraic calendar is based off of a phase of the moon, known as a new moon. Each new moon, the calendar moves into a new month. This had no affect on gentiles historically, nor does it today. So the gentiles of this time wouldn't of known what they were, and therefore would've judged those going off of this calendar as opposed to the calendar that observed the sun's coming and going. New moons are also how the Hebraic calendar keeps track of when God's appointed feasts are - as it is written the sun and the moon and stars are for signs of times and years for His people.

I ask because I'm still on the fence about this, and if my assumptions were wrong, then never mind. :)
It's no worries, hopefully it wasn't too long for you to read. I'm not 100% right all the time, but I have done some pretty extensive studies on the time that Paul wrote this letter, and the times the calendars were changed, as well as what the pagans of this land, and time believed and observed. He's basically saying stand strong in the faith, and don't let the people of the land you live in discourage you when you see how the pagans were living in their land during this time. Especially since in corinthians he gives the church instructions on how to keep the feast of unleavened bread, which means that they were also observing passover, because they go hand in hand.[/QUOTE]

Thanks for the reply and no, not too long...we are either here to study or not, if it takes time, it takes time.

Good points, and if that is the case, why should they worry about the Sabbath that was mentioned right in there with those other things?

Just as those other things, they were what you said they were to the Gentile..of little significance, as well as the fact they were Jewish laws that had nothing to do with the Gentiles, so whether they kept the Sabbath or not may have been of no more significance than the other things. I mean it was mentioned right there along with those other things.

Also, there are a pile of incidents where damnable sins are listed throughout the Bible, you've seen the verses that entail the lists, something like...those who do this that or the other thing will not see the kingdom of God, and the like. But not once is Sabbath keeping so much as mentioned in any of those places, much less starting and stopping it at a certain time of the day.
 
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bekkilyn

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There's no need to keep sabbath on sunday though. That is what the sabbath is meant for. For fellowship, for rest, and for worshipping God. Right now, that isn't what it's used for. Jesus wanted His followers to keep torah, He wouldn't want His followers to use His resurrection to transgress God, but because of Constantine, and the RCC (it's founders, and leaders, not it's followers) it's been used to do exactly that.

I'm definitely not saying that you can't worship God on sunday, or any other day of the week. But sunday or tuesday or wednesday worship shouldn't do away with the sabbath of the 7th day, regardless of if Jesus was resurrected on the 1st day or not. We can definitely celebrate on the 1st day, but the 7th day holds a special place in God's heart, and we should still try our best to honor it for the love we have of Him. As Jesus said, His doctrine is not His own. It was His Father's, and His Father's highly esteemed the sabbath. To the utmost actually.

My point is that Constantine or the RCC did not change the Sabbath to a different day as is often claimed, since Christians were *already* worshiping on Sundays long beforehand. Whether or not Christians are actually obligated to *also* keep a seventh-day (Saturday) Sabbath is a different issue. There is scriptural support for multiple views. I personally tend to Romans 14 a lot of it.
 
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Devin P

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My point is that Constantine or the RCC did not change the Sabbath to a different day as is often claimed, since Christians were *already* worshiping on Sundays long beforehand. Whether or not Christians are actually obligated to *also* keep a seventh-day (Saturday) Sabbath is a different issue. There is scriptural support for multiple views. I personally tend to Romans 14 a lot of it.
If you read the verse in context though, it's talking about a common and problematic debate they had back then. There was a debate that literally was splitting up the churches, and it was whether or not it was best to fast on these two days of the week, or those two days of the week, or even if only one certain day was best. They would literally separate entire churches because of this debate, and when looked at in context,

Romans 14:1-6
1Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations.
2 For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs.
3 Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.
4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.
5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.

In context, especially historically, we see that this verse is referring to that debate. He's telling them about fast days, and that it doesn't matter. When you fast, just do it without judgement, because whether or not you fast, you're eating or not eating to the Lord. If you eat to the Lord, you're observing the food He calls clean, so you're eating to Him. If you're fasting, you're fasting for Him. Either way, you're doing it for Him, so there's no point to judge or debate, just do it.

Not only is the word eat, and food referenced 12+ times around this verse, but the word sabbath is found nowhere near it. It's not even in the chapter. Actually, the word sabbath isn't even found once in the entire book of Romans.

If someone is doing away with a commandment of God, I would hope that they'd at least say they were doing away with it, or at least mention that which they're claiming is done away with by name at least.




And I'm sorry, but what you've said about constantine or the RCC not changing the sabbath date, historically isn't accurate.

"Let all the judges and town people, and the occupation of all trades, rest on the venerable day of the sun, but let those who are situated in the country, freely and at full liberty, attend to the business of agriculture; because it often happens that no other day is so fit for sowing corn and planting vines; lest the critical moment being let slip, men should lose the commodities granted by heaven" - Constantine 321 ad

That is the word of constantine, when in 321 ad, he literally passed a law changing the sabbath. He then from this point on, excommunicated those found keeping the 7th day sabbath, and later ultimately killed them.

The more I dig into history, the most I see that in fact, early believers, apostles alike kept the sabbath and all parts of torah that applied to them. In acts for example, they kept passover, they kept pentecost, they kept the feast of unleavened bread, and they kept sabbath 83+ times. Corinthians, Paul gave instructions to gentiles on how to keep the feast of unleavened bread, in revelations, John prophesies about how in the end times, they'd be keeping the sabbath, etc. I can go on and on, especially on historical accounts of those keeping torah (jewish or not) were outright killed because they kept torah. Uninformed haters of jews called them judaizers, even though that wasn't what they were.

I'm not trying to be rude, but I'm serious though, look up 321 ad, and see for yourself.

"Christians shall not Judaize and be idle on Saturday [in the original: 'sabbato' -shall not be idle on the Sabbath], but shall work on that day; but the Lord's day they shall especially honour, and as being Christians, shall, if possible, do no work on that day. If, however, they are found Judaizing, they shall be shut out" ['anathema,' excommunicated] from Christ." - Council of Laodicean,
 
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Devin P

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It's no worries, hopefully it wasn't too long for you to read. I'm not 100% right all the time, but I have done some pretty extensive studies on the time that Paul wrote this letter, and the times the calendars were changed, as well as what the pagans of this land, and time believed and observed. He's basically saying stand strong in the faith, and don't let the people of the land you live in discourage you when you see how the pagans were living in their land during this time. Especially since in corinthians he gives the church instructions on how to keep the feast of unleavened bread, which means that they were also observing passover, because they go hand in hand.

Thanks for the reply and no, not too long...we are either here to study or not, if it takes time, it takes time.

Good points, and if that is the case, why should they worry about the Sabbath that was mentioned right in there with those other things?

Just as those other things, they were what you said they were to the Gentile..of little significance, as well as the fact they were Jewish laws that had nothing to do with the Gentiles, so whether they kept the Sabbath or not may have been of no more significance than the other things. I mean it was mentioned right there along with those other things.

Also, there are a pile of incidents where damnable sins are listed throughout the Bible, you've seen the verses that entail the lists, something like...those who do this that or the other thing will not see the kingdom of God, and the like. But not once is Sabbath keeping so much as mentioned in any of those places, much less starting and stopping it at a certain time of the day.[/QUOTE]
Well, they did care about sabbaths. Back in this time, historically it wasn't normal for gentiles to take days off (especially much earlier than this) in fact, a lot of rome hated jews, because they thought that jews were lazy for taking a weekly day off, not even mentioning the other high sabbaths found throughout the year with unleavened bread, sukkot, etc.

The gentiles hated these things, because again, they thought taking so many days off was lazy. Although, these things aren't "jewish", they're hebraic, and customs of Israel (biblical Israel, God's people, not the country)

Why I believe that it still stands, is because there are verses in the OT, calling Israel an olive tree. Yet, in Romans 11, Paul tells us that gentiles are grafted into the good olive tree. Well, Israel, is that good olive tree. So, by having faith in Jesus, we are spiritually birthed again, being born anew, and our inheritance is among the only people ever promised the inheritance we have been given - Israel.

Ephraim is a multitude of nations, is what the bible tells us, and Israel was called Ephraim when they were cursed and spread out amongst the gentiles the last time when God divorced them - never to let them return again. According to Torah they could be released from this curse only when their husband (God) died, so when He came to die for us on the cross, we were freed, and once again allowed to return. But, the Torah only really affects Israel, so now that we are part of that good olive tree, and have come to the knowledge of God, and are now in the love of God, we should walk the way He asks His children to walk - by faith. But, the hebraic way of looking at faith, is far different than the english. English, is just belief. Hebraic, is belief that results in action. Believing and then doing.

The way the church is today, they demonize any type of action. Yet, scripture says faith without works is dead. That the hearer of the law isn't justified, but only the doer. It says that we aren't saved by this faith, but by believing in the fact that God will sanctify and justify us, we still out of our hearts strive to keep His law, because we know that it's truth. That it's light, that it's righteous, and holy.

Genesis 26:5 - it's why Abraham kept the law
Genesis 7:2 - It's why Noah only ate clean animals

And finally, the reason I feel that we should keep sabbath, is because

Isaiah 58:13-14
13
If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words:
14Then shalt thou delight thyself in the LORD; and I will cause thee to ride upon the high places of the earth, and feed thee with the heritage of Jacob thy father: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.

Exodus 31:16
'So the sons of Israel shall observe the sabbath, to celebrate the sabbath throughout their generations as a perpetual covenant.'


Exodus 31:17
"It is a sign between Me and the sons of Israel forever; for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, but on the seventh day He ceased from labor, and was refreshed."

That, and Jesus is to be our perfect role model, and He kept and taught the keeping of the sabbath. Also, in acts, they kept it like I said over 83 times, in revelations it's prophesied that we'll be keeping it in the end times, and all throughout the NT in the epistles they keep it - among other things in Torah, but I digress. It was something God did from the beginning.

See, I used to believe that the law only existed with Moses, but the more I read, and the more I study, the more I find that it's not so. Otherwise in Genesis 7:2 - if Noah ate any unclean animal (pork for example) since he only brought 2, they'd be extinct.
 
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bekkilyn

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If you read the verse in context though, it's talking about a common and problematic debate they had back then. There was a debate that literally was splitting up the churches, and it was whether or not it was best to fast on these two days of the week, or those two days of the week, or even if only one certain day was best. They would literally separate entire churches because of this debate, and when looked at in context,

Romans 14:1-6
1Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations.
2 For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs.
3 Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.
4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.
5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.

In context, especially historically, we see that this verse is referring to that debate. He's telling them about fast days, and that it doesn't matter. When you fast, just do it without judgement, because whether or not you fast, you're eating or not eating to the Lord. If you eat to the Lord, you're observing the food He calls clean, so you're eating to Him. If you're fasting, you're fasting for Him. Either way, you're doing it for Him, so there's no point to judge or debate, just do it.

Not only is the word eat, and food referenced 12+ times around this verse, but the word sabbath is found nowhere near it. It's not even in the chapter. Actually, the word sabbath isn't even found once in the entire book of Romans.

If someone is doing away with a commandment of God, I would hope that they'd at least say they were doing away with it, or at least mention that which they're claiming is done away with by name at least.




And I'm sorry, but what you've said about constantine or the RCC not changing the sabbath date, historically isn't accurate.

"Let all the judges and town people, and the occupation of all trades, rest on the venerable day of the sun, but let those who are situated in the country, freely and at full liberty, attend to the business of agriculture; because it often happens that no other day is so fit for sowing corn and planting vines; lest the critical moment being let slip, men should lose the commodities granted by heaven" - Constantine 321 ad

That is the word of constantine, when in 321 ad, he literally passed a law changing the sabbath. He then from this point on, excommunicated those found keeping the 7th day sabbath, and later ultimately killed them.

The more I dig into history, the most I see that in fact, early believers, apostles alike kept the sabbath and all parts of torah that applied to them. In acts for example, they kept passover, they kept pentecost, they kept the feast of unleavened bread, and they kept sabbath 83+ times. Corinthians, Paul gave instructions to gentiles on how to keep the feast of unleavened bread, in revelations, John prophesies about how in the end times, they'd be keeping the sabbath, etc. I can go on and on, especially on historical accounts of those keeping torah (jewish or not) were outright killed because they kept torah. Uninformed haters of jews called them judaizers, even though that wasn't what they were.

I'm not trying to be rude, but I'm serious though, look up 321 ad, and see for yourself.

"Christians shall not Judaize and be idle on Saturday [in the original: 'sabbato' -shall not be idle on the Sabbath], but shall work on that day; but the Lord's day they shall especially honour, and as being Christians, shall, if possible, do no work on that day. If, however, they are found Judaizing, they shall be shut out" ['anathema,' excommunicated] from Christ." - Council of Laodicean,

Constantine made the law for Sunday because Christians were *already* worshiping on Sundays and regardless of whether or not he had truly converted to Christianity, he had decided to support Christians and enforcing Sunday worship was one way of doing it. He wasn't changing the Sabbath to Sunday because Christians weren't celebrating the Sabbath.

Same with the Laodicean council. They were enforcing something that was already being done by Christians. They weren't changing anything that didn't already exist. Christians had been worshiping and assembling on Sundays for centuries before 321 A.D.

To argue that it all began on 321 A.D. with Constantine's law is to ignore all of the early century writers (Justin Martyr being one example) who state otherwise.

Again, whether or not gentile Christians were obligated to keep the seventh day (Saturday) Sabbath is a different argument and everyone is not in perfect agreement concerning scriptural interpretation on the subject.
 
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Devin P

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Constantine made the law for Sunday because Christians were *already* worshiping on Sundays and regardless of whether or not he had truly converted to Christianity, he had decided to support Christians and enforcing Sunday worship was one way of doing it. He wasn't changing the Sabbath to Sunday because Christians weren't celebrating the Sabbath.

Same with the Laodicean council. They were enforcing something that was already being done by Christians. They weren't changing anything that didn't already exist. Christians had been worshiping and assembling on Sundays for centuries before 321 A.D.

To argue that it all began on 321 A.D. with Constantine's law is to ignore all of the early century writers (Justin Martyr being one example) who state otherwise.

Again, whether or not gentile Christians were obligated to keep the seventh day (Saturday) Sabbath is a different argument and everyone is not in perfect agreement concerning scriptural interpretation on the subject.
Right, and hopefully one day we'll be able to agree, but Justin Martyr didn't understand the OT, really at all. He believed that the torah was only for the jews. When all throughout the OT, and the NT, we can see that is not the case. Not only that, but Jews are only one of 12 tribes it was given to.

If the OT speaks against doing away with the sabbath, and the NT speaks against doing away with the sabbath, and Jesus speaks against doing away with the sabbath, and the Apostles and Disciples talk as if keeping sabbath is base line knowledge, and warn against those who teach otherwise, then why would we trust someone that teaches literally exactly the opposite of what the bible tells us?

Idk, we probably will never agree. The way I see it, is, it's trusting either the bible, or writers 150 years after Jesus died that contradict everything the bible says.

Justin says that the sabbath didn't exist prior to Moses, but God tells us it existed from the beginning, and Justin thinks that Torah was only given to Jews, when they were only a 12th of those it was given to. That, and a lot of what he says completely contradicts way too much of scripture for me to feel comfortable using him as a source. Different strokes. The bible tells us that in the end of times, the serpent will go after those who testify of Jesus, and keep the commandments, and that those who keep the law until the last days will be saved, and that the law will be kept when Jesus comes down to reign on earth with us. So, why the law existed from the beginning of creation, until 150-300 ad, only to return again in the last days and during the millennial reign, idk. It just doesn't make sense to me.

All I'm saying, is if Jesus taught the doing away with the law, He'd be guilty of breaking and failing the deuteronomy 13 test, and therefore wouldn't be sinless. Because according to Torah, the very Law of God, if any prophet or worker of miracles does or says anything that contradicts, is against, or is contrary to the law Moses showed to Israel, they were to be stoned to death. So, if Jesus taught that the law was done away with, then He would be in the wrong, and the Jews that sought to stone Him in the right - and this by the very law He would've supposedly been keeping perfectly. Not my own opinion, but the law He kept.

I believe wholeheartedly that He kept it. But, in order for Him to keep it, He wouldn't of been able to teach against it, otherwise, He'd be breaking it. We can see this in the NT, in all of the verses of the apostles and disciples keeping and observing the Torah. Passover, unleavened bread, pentecost, sacrifices, circumcision, etc. They kept it, and Jesus taught the keeping of it, just because someone after they all died decided not to keep it, and teach others to do the same, doesn't validate lawlessness. Nor does it invalidate Jesus and the apostles.

It's even more alarming when you look at the greek word Anomia.

Anomia:

Lawlessness for one of two reasons
a. the ignorance of it
b. the desire to be without it

Why do I bring up the greek word anomia? Because.

Matthew 7:23 - And then I will profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity (anomia - lawlessness).

The word iniquity in the greek, is anomia. Which literally means, lawlessness. Depart from me, ye that work lawlessness. That is who Jesus will say depart from me to, those without the law.
 
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bekkilyn

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Right, and hopefully one day we'll be able to agree, but Justin Martyr didn't understand the OT, really at all. He believed that the torah was only for the jews. When all throughout the OT, and the NT, we can see that is not the case. Not only that, but Jews are only one of 12 tribes it was given to.

If the OT speaks against doing away with the sabbath, and the NT speaks against doing away with the sabbath, and Jesus speaks against doing away with the sabbath, and the Apostles and Disciples talk as if keeping sabbath is base line knowledge, and warn against those who teach otherwise, then why would we trust someone that teaches literally exactly the opposite of what the bible tells us?

Idk, we probably will never agree. The way I see it, is, it's trusting either the bible, or writers 150 years after Jesus died that contradict everything the bible says.

Justin says that the sabbath didn't exist prior to Moses, but God tells us it existed from the beginning, and Justin thinks that Torah was only given to Jews, when they were only a 12th of those it was given to. That, and a lot of what he says completely contradicts way too much of scripture for me to feel comfortable using him as a source. Different strokes. The bible tells us that in the end of times, the serpent will go after those who testify of Jesus, and keep the commandments, and that those who keep the law until the last days will be saved, and that the law will be kept when Jesus comes down to reign on earth with us. So, why the law existed from the beginning of creation, until 150-300 ad, only to return again in the last days and during the millennial reign, idk. It just doesn't make sense to me.

All I'm saying, is if Jesus taught the doing away with the law, He'd be guilty of breaking and failing the deuteronomy 13 test, and therefore wouldn't be sinless. Because according to Torah, the very Law of God, if any prophet or worker of miracles does or says anything that contradicts, is against, or is contrary to the law Moses showed to Israel, they were to be stoned to death. So, if Jesus taught that the law was done away with, then He would be in the wrong, and the Jews that sought to stone Him in the right - and this by the very law He would've supposedly been keeping perfectly. Not my own opinion, but the law He kept.

I believe wholeheartedly that He kept it. But, in order for Him to keep it, He wouldn't of been able to teach against it, otherwise, He'd be breaking it. We can see this in the NT, in all of the verses of the apostles and disciples keeping and observing the Torah. Passover, unleavened bread, pentecost, sacrifices, circumcision, etc. They kept it, and Jesus taught the keeping of it, just because someone after they all died decided not to keep it, and teach others to do the same, doesn't validate lawlessness. Nor does it invalidate Jesus and the apostles.

It's even more alarming when you look at the greek word Anomia.

Anomia:

Lawlessness for one of two reasons
a. the ignorance of it
b. the desire to be without it

Why do I bring up the greek word anomia? Because.

Matthew 7:23 - And then I will profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity (anomia - lawlessness).

The word iniquity in the greek, is anomia. Which literally means, lawlessness. Depart from me, ye that work lawlessness. That is who Jesus will say depart from me to, those without the law.

Regardless of whether or not Justin Martyr correctly interprets scripture does not change the fact that he wrote of Christians assembling weekly on Sundays, or the first day of the week, for worship. He is also not the only early century writer to confirm Sunday worship. Constantine and/or the RCC did not change the Sabbath. Christians were not observing the Sabbath, but were celebrating the Lord's resurrection, so there was no Sabbath to be changed.

Jesus observed the Sabbath along with all the rest of the Mosaic law because he was a Jew and the Old Covenant law still applied until the time of his death. It was his sacrifice that fulfilled the purpose of the Old Covenant laws. *Gentile* Christians were never under the Old Covenant and Christians are not under the laws of the Old Covenant now.
 
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Devin P

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Regardless of whether or not Justin Martyr correctly interprets scripture does not change the fact that he wrote of Christians assembling weekly on Sundays, or the first day of the week, for worship. He is also not the only early century writer to confirm Sunday worship. Constantine and/or the RCC did not change the Sabbath. Christians were not observing the Sabbath, but were celebrating the Lord's resurrection, so there was no Sabbath to be changed.

Jesus observed the Sabbath along with all the rest of the Mosaic law because he was a Jew and the Old Covenant law still applied until the time of his death. It was his sacrifice that fulfilled the purpose of the Old Covenant laws. *Gentile* Christians were never under the Old Covenant and Christians are not under the laws of the Old Covenant now.
Do you realize what Jesus gave you the opportunity to become?

What does Romans 11 speak of? What is the great mystery that Paul wishes we wouldn't be ignorant of? If you believe in Jesus, and are saved, you're no longer a gentile. All a gentile is, is someone who isn't in covenant with God - someone who is at enmity with God, someone that is separated from the promises and blessings of God. Just as foretold in Genesis, we're grafted into Israel no longer being gentiles, as Ephraim. Something predicted in Genesis, told about in the prophets, described by Jesus and elaborated by Paul.

Just because Justin was with others who were misinterpreting scripture, still doesn't mean that we should throw all of scripture out the window.

The law still applies to gentiles, just because they refuse to accept it and come to truth doesn't give them excuse. Otherwise God wouldn't of had any right to lay waste to Sodom and Gomorrah. All have sinned, means all. Sin is transgression of the law, therefore all have sinned and have fallen short, meaning all are held to that standard, regardless of their knowledge of the standard.

If gentiles aren't to keep the covenant, that means Paul in Romans 11 is wrong, it means the prophesy predicting our grafting into Israel in Genesis is wrong, that means the prophets is wrong, and that means Jesus isn't our savior, because He Himself says that He has only come to save the lost sheep of the house of Israel. It would also mean that Paul incorrectly taught, told and reminded the gentile church of corinth to keep the biblical feast of unleavened bread, and passover. It would also mean that countless prophecies about the end times, and the book of revelations would be wrong. So I mean, idk. I'm just urging you to read into the way the church sees theology a bit, and to test everything, because what you're saying, what justin is saying, and what those who don't know who they are in our Savior think theologically, would mean that the bible contradicts itself countless times, or at the very least, much of it is untrue.
 
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